"The 90's Arcade Racer" kickstarter - interesting game in development

[isamu]

The Wii U is certainly an odd choice and remember who you are talking to.  You aren't going to get your latest Logitech wheel to work on the wii u so what's the point?  The crappy tilt controls that nobody uses?  I suppose the idea is you get it on a console and it'll make more money, but if that's the case then release it on the ps4.

Good point^

Lack of a decent ffb wheel on the WiiU is a shame, since they've apparently got that new F-ZeroGX/WipeOut looking game coming out which looks pretty damn gnarly.

[MrThunderwing]

The Wii U is certainly an odd choice and remember who you are talking to.  You aren't going to get your latest Logitech wheel to work on the wii u so what's the point?  The crappy tilt controls that nobody uses?  I suppose the idea is you get it on a console and it'll make more money, but if that's the case then release it on the ps4.

Good point^

Lack of a decent ffb wheel on the WiiU is a shame, since they've apparently got that new F-ZeroGX/WipeOut looking game coming out which looks pretty damn gnarly.

Which game is that Isamu?

I've always thought it crazy that Nintendo were seemingly happy to just let the F-Zero brand die after the Gamecube, I loved GX so much.

[isamu]

The Wii U is certainly an odd choice and remember who you are talking to.  You aren't going to get your latest Logitech wheel to work on the wii u so what's the point?  The crappy tilt controls that nobody uses?  I suppose the idea is you get it on a console and it'll make more money, but if that's the case then release it on the ps4.

Good point^

Lack of a decent ffb wheel on the WiiU is a shame, since they've apparently got that new F-ZeroGX/WipeOut looking game coming out which looks pretty damn gnarly.

Which game is that Isamu?

I've always thought it crazy that Nintendo were seemingly happy to just let the F-Zero brand die after the Gamecube, I loved GX so much.

It's called fast racing neo or something like that....


http://fast.shinen.com/neo/

[MrThunderwing]

Nice! Looks almost like it could be an actual Wipeout game.

[isamu]

Nice! Looks almost like it could be an actual Wipeout game.

I know. To say they're paying homage would be an understatement 

[twistedsymphony]

The Wii U is certainly an odd choice and remember who you are talking to.  You aren't going to get your latest Logitech wheel to work on the wii u so what's the point?  The crappy tilt controls that nobody uses?  I suppose the idea is you get it on a console and it'll make more money, but if that's the case then release it on the ps4.

Good point^

Lack of a decent ffb wheel on the WiiU is a shame, since they've apparently got that new F-ZeroGX/WipeOut looking game coming out which looks pretty damn gnarly.

In all seriousness though should a game that features floating cars even have FFB? I mean on a road car the feedback is from the tires on the road... on a hover car I'd think there really wouldn't be any feedback in the wheel. There aren't any rudders either. one would assume that if those cars actually existed there wouldn't be a mechanical connection between the wheel and the turning mechanism, more of a "drive by wire" type setup so the lack of FFB would actually be the most accurate experience.

[SailorSat]

twistedsymphony: ever played a real f-zero ax cabinet? may not make any sence, but adds a lot "fun" to the game

[Malenko]

the cars still bumps the walls and each other, so I could see FFB being a thing for them.

[Howard_Casto]

F-zero gx/ax had surprisingly good FFB, so yeah, it's a thing.  Heck in terms of rumble, Mario Kart 8 has surprisingly good FFB. 

[MrThunderwing]

[twistedsymphony]

twistedsymphony: ever played a real f-zero ax cabinet? may not make any sence, but adds a lot "fun" to the game

I've never played one sadly... looks like a really great game though.

[BadMouth]

Good to have an update, but still no new video or release date.

Progress Report 
 



Posted by Pelikan13



Hello everyone,
 

For this update, I'd like to focus on how development has been so far and address some concerns.




It's been around two years since the Kickstarter campaign was launched and in this time the project grew and transformed.





The original plan was for three tracks, three cars, a single Arcade mode and was targeting PC, Mac and Linux only. However, with Nicalis being part of the picture the project grew, both is scope and in quality and the most importantly the game is releasing for Wii U, as we had previously announced.





Having a fixed hardware meant the limitations where set in stone, that was a great thing for development but also had its drawbacks. Getting the original PC code to run on Wii U at 60fps meant some effects had to be replaced or disabled and that we had to do plenty of custom work. However, once we had the game running properly and our targets set, development went smoothly and sped up for PC as well, at least in most areas.





Like we've mentioned in the past the major hurdles we had to overcome had to do with car physics and AI. I would like to get in to a bit more detail on this area.





Originally, the game was using of the shelf components to handle car physics and AI. The game was functioning but it didn't really play like it should, it was closer to a simulation than an arcade racer and could only handle a handful of AI cars.

Once we had a programmer on board it became clear that we would have to redo almost all the existing physics code and then do a lot of custom work to get where we wanted the game to be.

We went through several solutions and figured out that the best way would be to maintain the realistic car simulation with custom work on top to get the arcade handling we wanted.




This way we got the best of both worlds, the cars feel like proper cars and have settings for everything from tire pressure, suspension, downforce, wind resistance among many others and everything had to be balanced since any one of those could throw the simulation off. For the player it'll feel very much like an arcade game, but for development we needed all these parameters to get the right arcade feel. On top of that we had to create a lot of settings for our drifting model while making sure that the cars behave realistically only up to the point where they don't interfere with gameplay.




This was a very lengthy procedure because we could only afford a single programmer working on the game at any time and not taking the most optimal path to that final physics model meant we would have to go back and start over--which we had to do twice.




As of this time we have what I believe is a very fun, robust and unique driving model. In this area we are not imitating any particular game, but have come up with our own solutions. The goal of the game is to walk the line between pick up and play and challenging. Drifting is entirely physics driven, there are no predetermined paths and if you want to put in the best times, you will have to drift, brake, change gears and be keep your focus at all times. On the flipside crashing or simply not doing well will not be overly punishing.




With the player car physics and gameplay mostly done we turned to the AI. The biggest chalenges have been with the AI interacting with the player and getting everything to run smoothly.

I'm happy to say that we now have a functioning AI driving model and we can focus on game progression, playtesting and polishing, areas that are less challenging but require quite a bit of time too.




I know that some backers are not happy with the delays and my communication at times and, for this, I apologize. Please do keep in mind, though that I've been working on the game full-time with Nicalis since the Kickstarter; that has never changed.Sometimes I get caught up in development and postpone doing an update or answering emails and sometimes simply forget.

However, to those of you that disagree with the direction of the game or our actions up to now drop me an email and we can talk about getting a refund.


I would like to also thank all of you that have been supporting us even after all the delays.



Antonis
 
 

[eds1275]

All this talk of not having a programmer on board sort of frightens me. "Off the shelf components..." like the stuff that comes with Unity? That stuff is neat for getting some things up and working fast but no good for anything serious. The fact that they started basing a game around that is just silly. And then how the 3 track game grew, well why not start small and add a patch at a later time? Once the programming is done adding a track is easy stuff but focusing on the game itself would have been a better plan. It sounds like what they needed most is a project manager. The part that really burns is "sometimes simply forget" which is a really inappropriate thing to say when riding off with other people's money. They deserve to be in the know. With that said however it's good to see an update and again I m glad I didn't back it because a wall of text shows less than a 20 second video could. I hope for those who have put money in that this isn't a stalling tactic.

[pinkimo]

All this talk of not having a programmer on board sort of frightens me. "Off the shelf components..." like the stuff that comes with Unity? That stuff is neat for getting some things up and working fast but no good for anything serious. The fact that they started basing a game around that is just silly.

Most of the time, it's better to start with an existing library which gives a basis to work with, manage generic things (reading a controller, triggering events...) and help you learn how to do things than making everything from zero and reinventing the wheel.

And then how the 3 track game grew, well why not start small and add a patch at a later time? Once the programming is done adding a track is easy stuff but focusing on the game itself would have been a better plan.

It's not the same persons who make the tracks and program the physics and AI. So if the initiators of the project are not programmers but work on the content, it's logical to add some content if they have nothing better to do until the programming is done.

People who have no clue of how developping something works may just avoid judging.

IMO, the main problem is the development for Wii U, which seems to have taken quite some time, while it's the least appropriate home system available for any "meant to be played with a wheel" racing game and probably an almost dead system when the game will be released.

[yotsuya]

Who is this Nicalis guy, and why/ how does he have so much pull?

[BadMouth]

Who is this Nicalis guy, and why/ how does he have so much pull?

Not a guy.
Indie game developer which publishes throwback games: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicalis

I can see where it would have looked appealing when he was approached by them offering to do the publishing and game mechanics.
He is an artist (who has done work for Sega) and it was going to be a learning experience for him to figure out that other stuff.
Originally it was supposed to be a load off his shoulders, but IMO it seems to have become a liability as far as getting the game done is concerned.
They originally got the handling and physics done fairly quickly, but it was all wrong for an arcade racer and thankfully Antonis told them it was unacceptable. 
It sounded to me like the people at Nicalis had no concept of how the game was supposed to play or feel.

[Fursphere]

IMO, the main problem is the development for Wii U, which seems to have taken quite some time, while it's the least appropriate home system available for any "meant to be played with a wheel" racing game and probably an almost dead system when the game will be released.

This!

I actually own a Wii U (love it!), and even I think its a dead system.  So why this game is targeting the Wii U and not the PS3/PS4 (PSPlus!) or Xbox 360/One market is beyond me. 

However, they have a much bigger problem on there hands IMO.  If you compare this to recently released racing games on any platform (PS,Xbox,PC), if they want more than $5 - $10 for it - its already dead.

There are much more advanced games (I know that's not the point of this, but outside of the core audience - like 10 guys...) and the general population just isn't going to be interested in this when compared to other current offerings, especially when the sales hit.

[eds1275]

People who have no clue of how developping something works may just avoid judging.

I know how developing things works, I can also tell you that the off the shelf stuff that comes with unity is junky and clunky and it sounded like that came as a surprise to them. Even so, the biggest problem not having a programmer on board is the AI which is still something I don't believe anyone has seen in action. The updates seem to come right as people are getting to the end of their patience and do little more than string people along without actually showing any progress has been made. I have my doubts about this ever seeing the light of day. This has gone on so long that the WiiU is already gone to the back of most people's minds.

[Generic Eric]

People who have no clue of how developping something works may just avoid judging.

Can you imagine if someone like me had a kickstarter for an awesome game idea.  But was just learning how to code?  The roar would be deafening, the hate palatable and I'm sure I'd be doxxed and stuck working in fast food.

I'm still hopeful that this is released, but if nothing else, it is definitely a cautionary tale on the perils of kickstarter.

[Howard_Casto]

Yeah I'm sorry but the main problem with this particular project is that it's publically funded and yet the project leader wasn't 100% honest with the backers nor was there full transparency. 

If he would have been honest and just said he barely knew how to code but was ok with doing assets and the kickstarter funds only allowed him to hire a single programmer who is currently working on other things I doubt he would have gotten the funding he did.  There was a Bad Dudes 2 kickstarter and the guys doing it were really just fans and it never got funded.... because they were honest about the fact that they really weren't game developers.   

I'm hopeful it gets finished and if it's good I would still sing it's praises, but hopefully this whole experience is a lesson learned on both sides. 

[MrThunderwing]

They originally got the handling and physics done fairly quickly, but it was all wrong for an arcade racer and thankfully Antonis told them it was unacceptable. 
It sounded to me like the people at Nicalis had no concept of how the game was supposed to play or feel.

It's funny because the main Nicalis guy, Tryone I think his name was, kept on waxing lyrical about what a fan he was of games like Scud Race and Daytona, but even back then I thought it sounded like he was just telling us what we wanted to hear and I seem to recall he had more of a background in Sim type racers (or it might've been real life actual racing - I can't remember).

[isamu]

They originally got the handling and physics done fairly quickly, but it was all wrong for an arcade racer and thankfully Antonis told them it was unacceptable. 
It sounded to me like the people at Nicalis had no concept of how the game was supposed to play or feel.

It's funny because the main Nicalis guy, Tryone I think his name was, kept on waxing lyrical about what a fan he was of games like Scud Race and Daytona, but even back then I thought it sounded like he was just telling us what we wanted to hear and I seem to recall he had more of a background in Sim type racers (or it might've been real life actual racing - I can't remember).

+1

I was thinking the same thing. ^

At least this update seemed to be more genuine and from the heart. I appreciate that he went into more detail about why there were so many delays and what we can expect from the handling.
In any case I wish 'em all the best.

[Boomslang]

No word on a release window at all so we could still be waiting awhile. Let's hope it ends up a good game, but I'm not really sure why it's on wii u at all, we funded it purely for pc etc and it seems like it's added a fair bit of development time

[pinkimo]

There are much more advanced games (I know that's not the point of this, but outside of the core audience - like 10 guys...) and the general population just isn't going to be interested in this when compared to other current offerings, especially when the sales hit.

IMO there is ONLY the core audience for "pure" arcade racers since at least 10 years. I think most of the future buyers will be the kind of people who plays Daytona or Scud Race on emulators and so they have at least a cheap PC which can play this game.
Of course there is also people playing Daytona or Outrun 2006 on PS360 or who don't play old arcade racers but who will be interested on this game because it reminds them those old good games of their youth, but how many of them don't have a cheap PC and have a Wii U?

No word on a release window at all so we could still be waiting awhile. Let's hope it ends up a good game, but I'm not really sure why it's on wii u at all, we funded it purely for pc etc and it seems like it's added a fair bit of development time

IMO Nicalis wants to increase sales and visibility by releasing on consoles and it's probably too expensive to release on other ones. But as I said above, I don't see how it could be a good move.

[Malenko]

If its being released on WiiU, its going to cost at least $40 for the WiiU and the PC. That is, if it ever gets released.

[pinkimo]

No, it won't be more than 20$, it will be released only on the eShop.

[Howard_Casto]

Even 20 bucks is rather steep for a DLC title.  The only games that command those types of prices in the eShop are first party Nintendo games.  That's the other oddity about releasing it on the Wii U... That system already has the pan-ultimate arcade racer....  Mario Kart 8.  It's the same reason why the recent Rayman platformers didn't sell all that well... they went up against Nintendo with a genre that is their bread and butter.... never a good idea.

Btw the reason it was put on the Wii U is because unity runs, with very little modification, on the wii u natively.  Of course they are barely running any unity code at this point, so it was rather silly.   

[MrThunderwing]

IMO there is ONLY the core audience for "pure" arcade racers since at least 10 years.

I think you're right, I recall reading somewhere that when Outrun 2 came out on the original Xbox back in 2004 (!) It didn't actually sell particularly well (which I think is just insanity as OR2 was the whole reason I bought an original Xbox in the first place). I've never really understood why Arcade Racers declined in popularity so much. I blame Gran Turismo and all the identikit sim racers that followed it myself .

[Howard_Casto]

Yeah I literally killed my poor xbox.... too many outrun 2 games.  I really need to pick a new one up. 

I have nothing against sim racers, but it kind of defeats the purpose.  I can go drive a real car so I want the experience to be as "out there" as possible... all of the fun with none of the tedium.  It's the same reason that nba jam was easily the most popular basketball series ever....it had little to nothing to do with basketball.... which makes sense because if I want to play basketball I have a ball and a hoop right outside. 

[isamu]

+1 ^^

I've been trying to pound this into the hard core "l33t" sim-heads ever since signing up for iracing in 2010. They don't hear me doe.

[Malenko]

You can use a legit sim like iRacing to improve your real world driving skills, and challenge other racers in cars you cant afford with no fear of wrecking or bodily harm.  I can appreciate and love both sims and arcade racers. I have more fun with arcade racers but I still have fun with sims too.

[pbj]

I think you're right, I recall reading somewhere that when Outrun 2 came out on the original Xbox back in 2004 (!) It didn't actually sell particularly well

That's because it went head to head with Burnout 3 and got stomped into the ground.  Nowadays I'm more inclined to fire up Outrun 2 but it wasn't even a contest 10 years ago. 

[pinkimo]

I've never really understood why Arcade Racers declined in popularity so much. I blame Gran Turismo and all the identikit sim racers that followed it myself .

I have nothing against sim racers, but it kind of defeats the purpose.  I can go drive a real car so I want the experience to be as "out there" as possible... all of the fun with none of the tedium.

I can't agree with both of you. I love all kinds of racing games. In real life, most people don't drive at all like in a sim, and not the same kind of cars. All kinds are enjoyable and GT or Forza have nothing to do with the pour sales of Outrun.

Arcade racing games don't really talk to most casual gamers, they are often more attached to the reality and they will be intrigued by games which look like the reality and especially if they allow them to do things they dream to do in real life. I'm sure many casual gamers buy a console for GT or Forza, like many does for FIFA (or NFL in the US). Not having sim would not make them interested in arcade games.

Arcade racing games still hare popular among less casual gamers, but only "console" arcade racing games (NFS, Burnout... vs "pure" arcade racing games like Ridge Racer, Daytona or Scud).

Almost all of us here have grown up with "pure" arcade racers, dreaming of Virtua Racing, Daytona USA, Sega Rally or Ridge Racer (I've waited so much the release of the PS1 dreaming of Ridge Racer, "the arcade at home", and enjoyed it so much...). We could spend months on a game with 1 to 4 tracks, because the gameplay was so fun, because those tracks where very memorables in many aspects, and also because it was new and we didn't have so many games.

But let's be honest, now you have tons of games to chose from, particularly if you don't only take recent ones, and most of them have a lot of content. So if you ask someone not attached to those "pure" arcade racers to play to some of them, he will probably try them 5 mins, think they are simplistic with too few tracks and pour graphics, he won't see what they have more than the others, and he won't make any effort to play more because he has already played to many racing games and/or because there is a lot of other games available.

There is also some gamers who like to play from time to time to such games in the arcade, but who don't want to spend money to play to them at home, because of the pour content not worthing the money or because they don't want to play alone at home but with friends on an arcade cabinet.

Many people just can't understand the particular feeling of "pure" arcade racing games that everyone in this topic probably understand very well, it's sad but normal, it's something that have scarred us for life.

Crap, too long post to say obvious things while I should be sleeping...

[ghoolster]

New Gameplay video,

[BadMouth]

Seems like all the AI cars are sitting still.    

Hello everyone,


this update is mostly for the backers and I would like share with you an new gameplay video showing the progress made in AI and functioning gameplay mechanics.


All gameplay elements are now in and working, including AI and GUI elements, we are now in the proccess of polishing, optimizing,bug fixing as well as setting up the two player splitscreen and the championship mode.

The update goes on to show the cars that are playable and billboards for people that chipped in at that level.
I don't see the BYOAC atom logo anywhere yet.  I'll email Antonis about it, but I have a feeling it will be somewhere other than a billboard since it's so cool looking.

Because of the game has run so late, Antonis is giving backers a copy of his next game for free.  One of my favorite genres... a Streets of Rage style beat 'em up.  (Maybe too close to Streets of Rage to fly under Sega's radar)



Here's the steam greenlight link:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=545038173&insideModal=0&requirelogin=1

[Fursphere]

Looks just like Final Fight - character moves and everything. 

[baritonomarchetto]

It's dangerously close to streets of rage... that guy has Axels look and moves...

[Howard_Casto]

The same could be said for Guy of Final Fight.  Final Fight is beat-em-up-prime.  All others merely copy it.  Those enemy animations are 100% final fight. 

[MrThunderwing]

The same could be said for Guy of Final Fight.  Final Fight is beat-em-up-prime.  All others merely copy it.  Those enemy animations are 100% final fight.

Surely Renegade's beat-em-up prime? Final Fight was probably the ultimate refinement of the genre in arcades at the time though, after the likes of Double Dragon.

The new 90's racer footage looks good and the update sounds promising. Feels like we might be getting closer to an actual release date.

If anyone else here's a fan of beat-em-ups and action brawlers I'd highly recommend checking out the new game. I bought it for the PS3 a week or two ago and it's helluva fun.

[Fursphere]

The '90s Arcade Racer' is going to be emulated on MAME before it's released on the Steam at the rate its going.