critique my cocktail control panel??

[xefned]

First off, I'm a total newb here, so I could take even the most condescending criticism and not be offended.  I used early versions of mame over a decade ago, enjoyed it, but it wasn't the same experience controlling via arrow keys and the space bar. Only recently have I discovered the existence of this culture of arcade cabinet building, and this site, via a youtube video of all things. Armed with St. Clair's book, and a 4x8 sheet of plywood, I'm aiming to build a cocktail cabinet that's flexible enough to play more than just 4-way midways.

So I'm dreaming of this crazy scheme: a 14" wide control panel at both ends of a cocktail cabinet.

I'm curious: is 14" too wide for a cocktail control panel?
Is this control panel too cluttered?  Any other thoughts?



I'm imagining using both the trigger stick at the far right and the spinner at the far left simultaneously for a couple games. Too awkward a stance?
Any suggestions from you more experienced chaps would be appreciated,   Matthew

[millercentral]

I've had an oversized 3-sided cocktail cabinet for years now. While I'm in the process of refreshing the controls and adding some RGB lighting, here is the layout I use:

Horizontal:

The sticks are programmable 49-ways, and the spinner and trackball. The black buttons map to the trackball's left and right click.

Right Side:

The left stick is a 4/8-way (pull and turn to select), and the right stick is a Tron Cocktail trigger stick. Another spinner rounds it out, making this a playable layout for Tron, tank games, and a bunch more. The volcano buttons light up for 1p/2p start.

Left Side:

Another 4/8-way stick, another trackball, and some more volcano buttons.


I've had this setup for almost 5 years, and it is really wonderful. Head-to-heads work great, and almost everything else can be played effectively as well.

[Player 3]

I'm imagining using both the trigger stick at the far right and the spinner at the far left simultaneously for a couple games. Too awkward a stance?
Any suggestions from you more experienced chaps would be appreciated,   Matthew

Sounds like someone's up for some TRON. That configuration actually pretty creative even for a cocktail that wants to play that too. The buttons though should be better arranged for easy access. Unless you plan on older games and shmups, it's not terrible, but that also depends on your hand orientation for the most comfort.

[Le Chuck]

As the great proselytizer of the everything stick I would like to recommend that the OP looks into doing a wireless hot-swappable TRON stick on an auto rotatable 4/8 way joystick.  This would save a stick and give more room on the CP for pesky things like buttons side by side rather than stacked and maybe even four of them for some rockin' SNK action.  Other than that I think the spinner may be too close to the far edge for comfortable play, not that it needs to be centered but maybe just another inch over.  Also the stick can be centered and all the buttons on the right of the stick for a more standard configuration but that is pure personal preference.   

The current layout is good and would likely work out well, just something to think about. 

[iserian]

Mill,

What display are you using in your 3 way?

I've had an oversized 3-sided cocktail cabinet for years now. While I'm in the process of refreshing the controls and adding some RGB lighting, here is the layout I use:

Horizontal:

The sticks are programmable 49-ways, and the spinner and trackball. The black buttons map to the trackball's left and right click.

Right Side:

The left stick is a 4/8-way (pull and turn to select), and the right stick is a Tron Cocktail trigger stick. Another spinner rounds it out, making this a playable layout for Tron, tank games, and a bunch more. The volcano buttons light up for 1p/2p start.

Left Side:

Another 4/8-way stick, another trackball, and some more volcano buttons.


I've had this setup for almost 5 years, and it is really wonderful. Head-to-heads work great, and almost everything else can be played effectively as well.

[millercentral]

I had been using a Beston 27" Multisync, but I'm swapping it out for a 24" LCD (blasphemy, I know, but I found myself constantly fighting with the settings for the Beston game to game... Taking away from the enjoyment of the cab)... I'll get some hlsl effects going to help with the LCD sharpness...

[Mental]

Much over 12" in width on a cocktail starts to get uncomfortable. Your legs will be pretty wide straddling it. I made the mistake once of going 15" and was really unhappy with it in the end. It presses inside your knees.

[alfonzotan]

It looks a tad crowded.  I would delete the two buttons on the left, move the stick over, and line up the two remaining buttons (which are all you need for most 80's games) so they're next to each other horizontally, as they are for "regular" arcade games.  I'm guessing you're using a cocktail-style trigger stick? 

Of course, this begs the question of where you're putting your admin and game select buttons...

[iserian]

What model # did you buy? I am trying out several IPS display's  for a 3 way cocktail - nothing great as of yet in terms of viewing angle for the 3rd display side.

I had been using a Beston 27" Multisync, but I'm swapping it out for a 24" LCD (blasphemy, I know, but I found myself constantly fighting with the settings for the Beston game to game... Taking away from the enjoyment of the cab)... I'll get some hlsl effects going to help with the LCD sharpness...

[xefned]

Wow, thanks for all the great advice. I didn't know if I'd get any responses or not.

Right Side:

The left stick is a 4/8-way (pull and turn to select), and the right stick is a Tron Cocktail trigger stick. Another spinner rounds it out, making this a playable layout for Tron, tank games, and a bunch more. The volcano buttons light up for 1p/2p start.

Hella cool! Your setup looks incredibly flexible. I had no idea they made a cocktail trigger stick. Used market only I suppose. I found one listed at arcadefixit. It looks like a duck.



I was actually planning to use the Ultimarc MiniGrip. It's 4.7 inches high so I was hoping to hack/lower it a couple inches if I can find a way, undermounting with some kind of spacer maybe. It looks like this:



Do you like the magstik plus? After reading Saint's chapter on sticks I was left with the impression that it was the one to get. But I've read so many negative opinions on the short throw. Most games I like are 4 way only so switching for me may be rare. I've got my sights set on the ball top J-stick, partially on considerations of cost.

 

Sounds like someone's up for some TRON. That configuration actually pretty creative even for a cocktail that wants to play that too. The buttons though should be better arranged for easy access. Unless you plan on older games and shmups, it's not terrible, but that also depends on your hand orientation for the most comfort.

Hard to believe, I'm actually most anxious to play Zwackery again.  !!!   

... I would like to recommend that the OP looks into doing a wireless hot-swappable TRON stick on an auto rotatable 4/8 way joystick ... 

 

This is my first build ever. I'll have to do some research to even understand what you're talking about!!! 

...This would save a stick and give more room on the CP for pesky things like buttons side by side rather than stacked and maybe even four of them for some rockin' SNK action.  Other than that I think the spinner may be too close to the far edge for comfortable play, not that it needs to be centered but maybe just another inch over.  Also the stick can be centered and all the buttons on the right of the stick for a more standard configuration but that is pure personal preference.   

Good suggestions, thanks! I didn't even realize 'buttons on the right' was a standard. Laying in bed thinking about this before going to sleep the night before posting, I was trying hard to remember which games you use your right hand and which ones your left hand. It probably seems bizarre that I don't even know that.

 
 

Much over 12" in width on a cocktail starts to get uncomfortable. Your legs will be pretty wide straddling it. I made the mistake once of going 15" and was really unhappy with it in the end. It presses inside your knees.

Thanks for the insight! I'll see if I can do it in 12".
 
 

It looks a tad crowded.  I would delete the two buttons on the left, move the stick over, and line up the two remaining buttons (which are all you need for most 80's games) so they're next to each other horizontally, as they are for "regular" arcade games.  I'm guessing you're using a cocktail-style trigger stick? 

Left buttons to be deleted. Right buttons to be aligned horizontally. You're the 2nd person to mention that so it's a glaring issue. Also the 2nd to mention cocktail-style trigger stick. Like the duck above? Anybody still making these?

Of course, this begs the question of where you're putting your admin and game select buttons...

Hmmmm. Good q.  Side panel maybe? Above knee height. Clearly I have no room left on the CP.

Guys, thank you all. This will help me from making some regrettable decisions.  Revision in progress...

[PL1]

I was actually planning to use the Ultimarc MiniGrip. It's 4.7 inches high so I was hoping to hack/lower it a couple inches if I can find a way, undermounting with some kind of spacer maybe.

You'll have a hard time getting undermounting/lowering to work with this stick since the lowest screws on the grip hold the side shell to the stick.

... I would like to recommend that the OP looks into doing a wireless hot-swappable TRON stick on an auto rotatable 4/8 way joystick ... 

 

This is my first build ever. I'll have to do some research to even understand what you're talking about!!! 

Here's a post with a video demonstrating the stick and the wireless trigger stick wiki entry to get you started.


Scott

[xefned]

OMG. That's frickin amazing. That game actually switches mid-game from 8-way to 4-way. That's incredible.
The wireless buttons in the top of that trigger are also pretty ingenious.  This gives me a lot to ponder.  Thank you.

The minigrip looks pretty bulky and space-inefficient for a cocktail. I'll look into a smaller alternative.

I'm already planning to DIY a spinner based on the designs in the wiki, which has my head sufficiently tied in knots. Which leads me to wonder - is this too much to tackle for the joy of playing one or two additional games.

Maybe I should start with one stick + two buttons.
Then do a standalone control panel as a future project with the spinner and trigger.

Here is a revised panel, from 14" to 12" with the spinner up above the knobs.
Still thinking...

[PL1]

VGP/arcadefixit has several used TRON cocktail triggerstick handles.  Not sure if you'll like the price, though.



You might be able to find a better deal on e-bay or KLOV, but don't look for a deal in this particular KLOV thread.   


Scott

EDIT: Didn't remember you had mentioned VGP above.   

EDIT 2: Have you considered the Happ top fire joysticks like this or this.  Specs + measurements here.

 

[xefned]

Good tip! Don't know how I missed those.
They're shorter than the minigrip, and narrower at the base. I'll probably need a giant hole in the CP to accomodate the full throw at the lowered origin of angle. I better mock it up first.

Thanks!

[millercentral]

Hella cool! Your setup looks incredibly flexible. I had no idea they made a cocktail trigger stick. Used market only I suppose. I found one listed at arcadefixit. It looks like a duck.

Huh, the "duck" must be a later revision then mine. My tron trigger doesn't flair out like that, it just follows the curve of the balltop. The duck, while it looks funny, might have slightly better ergo.

I've always been surprised that one of the many excellent joystick vendors in this hobby (Paradise, Ultrimarc, GGG, etc) haven't created a balltop trigger similar to this for current sticks, it is a really great design.

[paigeoliver]

Trying to build in support for a title with oddball controls usually isn't the best idea if you are constrained on space. You can end up with a machine that doesn't do anything well.

Tron support (never played Zwackery) is one of those things that I often tend to advise people not to bother with. Tron is 50 percent nostalgia about the movie and 50 percent cool cabinet masking a game that isn't really all that good. You are missing most of the experience playing on a mame cabinet and since it puts the controls in the "wrong" hands it gimps the machine for playing other titles decently.

[PL1]

Good tip! Don't know how I missed those.
They're shorter than the minigrip, and narrower at the base. I'll probably need a giant hole in the CP to accomodate the full throw at the lowered origin of angle. I better mock it up first.

Thanks!

The first one is probably the one to go with if you're using spacers to lower it since it has a dust washer. 

Here is an older Joystick Roundup.PDF that gives how many degrees of deflection the handle can travel and other useful info.  Retroblast also has a review for it here.

Even if you don't use it much for TRON, it'll be great for Battlezone.   


Scott

[xefned]

Scott, thanks for the stick chart. That's data I can geek out on.

Trying to build in support for a title with oddball controls usually isn't the best idea if you are constrained on space. You can end up with a machine that doesn't do anything well.

Paige, I appreciate the insight. Hard as it may be to accept, I think it's dead on.

I was no good at Tron so I never played it more than twice. But I've read that sentiment elsewhere (i.e. "why did I pump so many quarters into that game??")

Zwackery was "my game" in '85. But the thrill may wear off after a couple games, and why go through the added expense and trouble until I've verified that I still like it? Especially for 2 sides of a cocktail. Maybe a low-cost plywood test box is in order.

So I'll probably end up ditching the trigger stick, even though I like the idea of playing defender in a totally non-authentic way, trigger for fire, rear trigger for thrust, spinner push for smart bombs, spinner pull for hyperspace.   

And that push-pull spinner plan will quickly turn into a standard spinner. They're too expensive for 1 title.

I'm currently trying to concoct a DIY push-pull spinner. I can't find any examples of it having been done. It may prove to be over my skill level. We'll see...

[PL1]

Maybe a low-cost plywood test box is in order.

Good plan for any build and it's even lower-cost if you use a cardboard box.

And that push-pull spinner plan will quickly turn into a standard spinner. They're too expensive for 1 title.

I'm currently trying to concoct a DIY push-pull spinner. I can't find any examples of it having been done. It may prove to be over my skill level. We'll see...

 IIRC there are only a few titles that use a push/pull spinner: Zwackery, Discs of Tron, and Forgotten Worlds. 

I've seen several threads where someone wanted to attempt it, but I've never seen a successful DIY build.  I think part of that is that some try to use the encoder disc to push on the up/down switches instead of making a self-contained spinner module within a lightweight framework (gray) and having the framework slide up and down inside a larger framework (orange) to push the switches (blue).  Four springs (green) -- the two on the other side are not shown -- hold the weight of the inner framework allowing a light push or pull on the spinner knob to slide the inner assembly.

If you mount a TT2 on the inner assembly, but can't get the push/pull to work, you can always remove the TT2 and use it as a regular spinner.


Scott

[Xiaou2]

Another mod, could be simple use of foot pedals.   A dual rocking pedal could be made fairly easily... and provide pretty acurate results on a game like DOT.   The pedal could also function as a gas and brake pedal for racing games... which goes well with in conjunction with games like Supersprint.

[PL1]

Another mod, could be simple use of foot pedals.   A dual rocking pedal could be made fairly easily... and provide pretty acurate results on a game like DOT.   The pedal could also function as a gas and brake pedal for racing games... which goes well with in conjunction with games like Supersprint.

You've been reading my posts here, here, and here, haven't you?   


Scott

[xefned]

Good plan for any build and it's even lower-cost if you use a cardboard box.

Good call!

IIRC there are only a few titles that use a push/pull spinner: Zwackery, Discs of Tron, and Forgotten Worlds. 

It's Zwackery in this particular case.   

I've seen several threads where someone wanted to attempt it, but I've never seen a successful DIY build. 

Not a good sign. But I won't let that discourage me.
I'll give it at least one good attempt, and if I can't get it working, I'll do like you suggested and revert back to a non-push-pull spinner. A regular spinner will still come in handy for Tac/Scan and Warlords.

I think part of that is that some try to use the encoder disc to push on the up/down switches instead of making a self-contained spinner module within a lightweight framework (gray) and having the framework slide up and down inside a larger framework (orange) to push the switches (blue).  Four springs (green) -- the two on the other side are not shown -- hold the weight of the inner framework allowing a light push or pull on the spinner knob to slide the inner assembly.

Oh yeah, I saw the example with the encoder disc pushing down on the PCB, which pivots to activate the switches, at Pacmamea. My encoder wheel (is actually a trackball wheel with only 24 spokes, might be problematic) is made of plastic so that would get chewed up. I'm going to avoid those less-robust attachment methods I've seen - like hot glue, rubber bands, and coat hangers. 

If you mount a TT2 on the inner assembly, but can't get the push/pull to work, you can always remove the TT2 and use it as a regular spinner.

Thanks a ton for the diagram BTW. It looks complicated, but that might be the only way to get it to work. I'm gonna start small and simple, and work my way up to complex if I can't figure out a simpler way. My starting point is the Gearhead Labs 'QuickSpin' which is a knob, some washers, a shaft and some hardware. It looks deceptively simple. Here I go...........     

[Le Chuck]

I know that the push pull from GGG is pricey but I'm just throwing it out there as an owner...

The GGG Turbo Twist High-Low spinner is one of the best arcade controls I've ever owned.  There are only a few titles that use it, sure, but being able to play these great titles (I'm a DOT nut) and no fumble the controls is worth every penny to me.  I've made a lot of cabs and only in the last year finally caved and got the TT High-Low.  Should've bought it years ago.  It's awesome.

/End of shameless endorsement