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Author Topic: Cabinet Design Help  (Read 3997 times)

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ninjawhiteboy12

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Cabinet Design Help
« on: September 05, 2012, 08:33:20 pm »
Hey guys, I'm trying to design my cabinet and can't decide on what the control panel should consist of.  I am looking to create a 4 player all around MAME that can play as many games as possible short of having a cluttered control panel with unnecessary controls.  I spent about two hours looking through the control panel database and saw a number of different configurations using 6...7...8 buttons for players one and two and 4 or 6 for players three and four.  I am also debating wither to incorporate a trackball and a spinner into the layout or not.  What are your thoughts on more/less buttons on the different players and on the need for a spinner or trackball.  Also, with the added number of controls how are the interface requirements affected?

Here are some images of control panels that caught my eye, even though I'm not completely sure what some of the controls are used for.

Any help is much appreciated, Thanks.

MTPPC

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Re: Cabinet Design Help
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2012, 01:56:34 am »
I think the consensus is 6 buttons for players 1 and 2 and 3 buttons for players 3 and 4. A track ball with plenty of topside clearance is great for golf/bowling and a single 4 way is great for pacman. Try to limit the admin buttons and probably use an I-Pac4 or two of degentron's diy keyboard encoders for the interface: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,120362.0.html

And don't forget to keep all the joysticks oriented the same (including P3 and P4).

« Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 02:01:28 am by MTPPC »
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ninjawhiteboy12

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Re: Cabinet Design Help
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2012, 02:49:00 am »
That's what I thought at first, but after seeing panels with 7 or 8 buttons I got confused.  Do some of those buttons serve non game play purposes or are they only used on a select few games? Also I had planned to use Ultrimarc Ultrastik 360 sticks for the 1st and 2nd players and since they can be used as 4 way, 8 way or as an analog stick.  That would serve the same purpose as the singe 4 way stick correct?
Thanks for the response.

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Re: Cabinet Design Help
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2012, 01:37:23 pm »
3 buttons for players 3 and 4.

I was under the impression that most CPs had 4 buttons for players 3 and 4.

I'm very new here so I can't say I know a lot, but I believe Dungeons & Dragons uses 4 buttons for 4 players.


Le Chuck

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Re: Cabinet Design Help
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2012, 03:46:14 pm »
Folks will put more than three buttons on P3&P4 because they think they are going to have marathon sessions of smash bros with 4 peeps or mega console game tourneys on their cab.  Neither of these really ever happens.  (insert guy who does and feels the need to defend his build)

7 is popular for P1&P2 so you can get the stock NeoGeo layout and a slightly better layout for MK.  6 works just as well IMO but I do like the four across, it's just not necessary for me. 

A lot of your examples are not what I would consider to be great CPs, at least with respect to the cab they are stuck on.  1 & 6 (#'d from top to bottom) are nice.  Some of the others were really versatile in their day but are somewhat dated now due to advances is available controls (ie auto rotating joysticks, wireless hot-swappable trigger sticks, easily done rotatable mods...).  I would argue that there really isn't a need anymore for a separate 4 way stick on a panel like these, or even a dedicated TRON stick.  If you're a die hard Wico player you probably want a dedicated cabinet closer to what all the early/mid 80s games where on anyway.   

You want a great example of a very versatile CP, check out TopJimmyCook's Switchcade.  That is versatile done right.  Whatever you decide mock it up in cardboard first, spend some time playing with it before you commit.  Oh, and welcome!

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Re: Cabinet Design Help
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2012, 06:51:42 pm »

7 is popular for P1&P2 so you can get the stock NeoGeo layout and a slightly better layout for MK.  6 works just as well IMO but I do like the four across, it's just not necessary for me. 

A lot of your examples are not what I would consider to be great CPs, at least with respect to the cab they are stuck on.  1 & 6 (#'d from top to bottom) are nice.  Some of the others were really versatile in their day but are somewhat dated now due to advances is available controls (ie auto rotating joysticks, wireless hot-swappable trigger sticks, easily done rotatable mods...). 

You want a great example of a very versatile CP, check out TopJimmyCook's Switchcade.  That is versatile done right.  Whatever you decide mock it up in cardboard first, spend some time playing with it before you commit.  Oh, and welcome!

Is there an application that an 8 button P1/P2 set up would even be useful or needed?  I have only seen a few examples of this, but It raised my curiosity.  Also could you go a little more in depth about the advances in controls and how they replace the designs used in the above pictures.

I read all through the Switchcade thread and that is a very clever idea and I love the idea, but in my case I would most likely only put a removable center plate with two players on each side.  I'm not sure if I will go this route, but it does really leave the options open control wise, while still making for a clean control panel.

Thanks, I'm glad to be here and eager to learn more about how to design/build my cabinet.

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Re: Cabinet Design Help
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2012, 07:59:12 pm »
In case you see this post and think TLDR just go to my sig and see the 2011 BYOAC UCA link and go to the BYOAC Wiki and read everything under Controls. 

8 buttons... I think that's seen mostly on the console sticks (SFIV type deal) which if that's your deal fine but doesn't have a lot of arcade applications.  I don't like playing any console beyond SNES on my cabs and even those are limited.  Console games, for me, are best left to the realm of the hand held controller and the couch. 

As far as controls, without stepping on too many toes, it has been for quite some time that when doing an all-in-one panel it's commonplace to add a fifth (or even 6th) joystick.  These are usually 4 way sticks.  They have a diamond shaped restrictor that allows the player to slide across the corners only ever going in the 4 cardinal directions.  This was necessary for gameplay on Pac-Man, Donkey Kong, and scores of other awesome games.  If you played with an 8way stick you'd hit a diagonal and your player would freeze or go the wrong way. 

Also, since you already had 5 controllers why not one more, you'd see a TRON stick (8 way stick with a special restrictor and a flight stick handle), and oh why we're at it we can't forget the trackball for missile command and the tempest spinner!  This is commonly referred to as a frankenpanel.  Do a search and you'll get all kinds of hits for that term.  Very educational. 

Anyway, there is not a good combination solution for a trackball and spinner.  Some folks will use a rotary joystick as their spinner but this can lead to poor player performance and just isn't that fun, some folks disable the Y axis in their trackball using only the X, also a copout.  There is no great substitute for a spinner; however, tons of people (the majority) never have spinners and are perfectly happy not playing those games.  I didn't have a spinner for 8 years and was fine.  Of course you couldn't pry my spinner from my cold dead fingers now but gaming tastes evolve over time.

Ditto the trackball, most everyone will agree that if you don't have one then don't play those games.  You aren't missing out on that much, some, sure, but not that much. 

So for those two controls you need to decide if you want them or not.  If so great, if not, don't get them just to have them. 

As for the a fore mentioned fourway sticks there are some great solutions coming out to remotely switch your 8 way into a 4 way based on what game you're playing.  Ultimarc is selling one now, I'm sure other retailers will soon follow with their own version, but best of all, you can build one yourself.  Check out the wiki.  This saves you from having to add a fourway stick at all.  Is it 100% arcade accurate?  No, but nothing about building a multipanel is so don't sweat it.  And that TRON stick, you don't really need that anymore as you can build that right onto that rotatable 4way/8way stick using this mod.  There currently isn't a commercial version of that but I expect to see one crop up in the next year or so. 

Then you have top fire sticks (taken care of by TRON stick mod) and rotary sticks.  Rotary sticks are great for games like heavy barrel and ikari warriors but honestly like 2% of gamers have these on their cabs... but if you want them you can mod your stick to do that too!

The last thing is admin buttons.  On your CP you'll need P1-P4 and likely C1-C4 (coin) unless you're putting the coin buttons on the coin door where they belong.  Some folks have buttons for exit, favorite, list, pause, save state, load state, volume up, volume down, and lord knows what else.  That's cool and if you've got room rock on.  I prefer just to have exit.  To enter a game I use P1 so that's a dual use.  I'll usually make P1 and Exit together Pause but that's it.  It all depends on what you want. 

If you want to check out some awesome user approved builds go to the 2011 BYOAC UCA link in my sig and cruise through all the different category links to see what's out there. 

   

ninjawhiteboy12

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Re: Cabinet Design Help
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2012, 02:33:41 pm »
Just for the sake of options and since the cost difference is next to nothing, I'm thinking 8 buttons for P1/P2 and 4 buttons for P3/P4.  I don't expect to have much use for a flight stick, and even if I want to play Tron or like games I can always remove the restrictor plate on the Ultrastik 360 and use it as an analog stick correct?

Also in terms of spinners, are there any circumstances when two would be needed?  I had planned on a single spinner and then a friend of mine
mentioned two player pong and it rose my curiosity.  I have seen very very few cabinets with two spinners so I would imagine that there is little to no need, but I thought I'd ask anyway. 

In terms of keyboard interface are there any advantages to one over another if they both have enough inputs to support all of the controls?  I assume that there are some software differences between different venues.  I was pretty set on the I-Pac 4 untill I read through one of the threads earlier today about interfaces and the Lono2 was mentioned.  It seems to have more inputs and also boasts of higher speed.  There have been a number of DIY interface projects that I read about, but thought for $65. why not play it safe with a proven board. 

There are some incredible builds on that 2011 BYOAC UCA link, I especially like the spacey looking full sized cabinet. 

 

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Re: Cabinet Design Help
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2012, 03:19:32 pm »
Just for the sake of options and since the cost difference is next to nothing, I'm thinking 8 buttons for P1/P2 and 4 buttons for P3/P4.  I don't expect to have much use for a flight stick, and even if I want to play Tron or like games I can always remove the restrictor plate on the Ultrastik 360 and use it as an analog stick correct?
Sure, but tron isn't an analog stick game and you still have those pesky joystick buttons to figure out. 

Quote
Also in terms of spinners, are there any circumstances when two would be needed?  I had planned on a single spinner and then a friend of mine
mentioned two player pong and it rose my curiosity.  I have seen very very few cabinets with two spinners so I would imagine that there is little to no need, but I thought I'd ask anyway. 

Somebody didn't read the wiki I mentioned.  http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/wiki/Spinners halfway down you'll see a heading for "Two Spinners on a control panel; is it worth it?"

Quote
In terms of keyboard interface are there any advantages to one over another if they both have enough inputs to support all of the controls?  I assume that there are some software differences between different venues.  I was pretty set on the I-Pac 4 untill I read through one of the threads earlier today about interfaces and the Lono2 was mentioned.  It seems to have more inputs and also boasts of higher speed.  There have been a number of DIY interface projects that I read about, but thought for $65. why not play it safe with a proven board. 

I don't think you'll ever physically notice a speed difference, we're talking nanoseconds.  Get what you want and what you're willing to read about to figure out how it works.  I use GGG (groovy game gear) products whenever I can because I get great service and support from Randy and he's former military and that sort of thing matters to me.  That said I've never had bad service from any of our other awesome vendors either like Andy Warne with Ultimarc or the guys over at Paradise.


Trip

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Re: Cabinet Design Help
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2012, 03:42:23 pm »
I just got done doing a 4, mine ended up rather big.  Wish I would of went a little smaller with the width, but after playing a ton of hours of 4 players at once this weekend, I am not sure how we would fit players 1 and 2 in the middle.  I remember smaller CPs having a lot more room when I was thinner....oops...I mean younger.   :lol

Definitely do a mock up before hand.  Here is my finished one.


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Re: Cabinet Design Help
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2012, 01:29:08 am »
I can't believe I missed that section  :banghead: but that cleared up a lot for me.  I took some time this afternoon to compile a basic parts list and here is what I came up with.

Very nice build, hopefully mine will turn out something like that and size-wise I think a little roomier is better.

1) P1, P2, P3, P4 Push Buttons
2) 8 Red Push Buttons and Ultimarc Ultrastik 360 Joystick (P1)
3) 8 Blue Push Buttons and Ultimarc Ultrastik 360 Joystick (P2)
4) 4 Yellow Push Buttons and OMNI2 4/8 Way Switchable Joystick (P3)
5) 4 Green Push Buttons and OMNI2 4/8 Way Switchable Joystick (P4)
6) Groovy TB 3" Trackball
7) Possibly Ultimarc IPAC4 Control Interface......I was also debating on getting two GP-Wiz40 MAX's and for around the same price I have 24 more inputs
8) Dayton Audio DTA-100a Amp
9) Lanzar 6.5in Car Audio Speakers

Also I really really wanted to put dual spinners on for the racing game possibilities and other like games, but the budget does not allow it at this time. 

Interface wise, which way would be the better option, the two GP-Wiz40 Max's or the single IPAC4 or any other interfaces offered? 
I am thinking that I will just look around on my local craigslist for a 20-27in CRT tv that is reasonably shallow mounting and doesn't have a very large boarder around the screen.  Originally I was thinking an old CRT computer monitor, but I don't think that it will be large enough. 

I was curious, how do you mount trackballs and sticks so that they are flush to the surface of the control panel and you don't have any hardware showing? I am aiming for a very clean look and seeing the mounting plate and hardware is hideous.




« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 01:31:01 am by ninjawhiteboy12 »

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Re: Cabinet Design Help
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2012, 02:10:39 am »
I was curious, how do you mount trackballs and sticks so that they are flush to the surface of the control panel and you don't have any hardware showing?

For the trackball, you can use a router to flush mount the plate and cover everything with printed art or you can get a U-Trak.

For the sticks, you can use mounting hardware like this. 



Ultimarc and GGG both carry them.


Scott

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Re: Cabinet Design Help
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2012, 04:08:14 am »
I must have skipped over the U-Trak, when I was searching through the Ultimarc website, are there any function differences between it and the GGG trackball I had listed above or a standard Happ trackball? 

Thanks for pointing out the hardware, that makes it easy. 

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Re: Cabinet Design Help
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2012, 04:42:56 am »
No functional difference that I know of. 

Just different designs/mounting methods.


Scott

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Re: Cabinet Design Help
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2012, 11:54:55 pm »
Mines a utrak and I am very happy I went that route, very very easy.

My sticks are bottom mounted, that made things easy too.

ninjawhiteboy12

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Re: Cabinet Design Help
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2012, 12:37:21 am »
Mines a utrak and I am very happy I went that route, very very easy.

My sticks are bottom mounted, that made things easy too.

Do you have any pictures of your build? I thought about bottom mounting my sticks, but doesn't it recess your sticks by the depth of the plywood?  I also thought about just using the Golden Tee Trackball mounting plate since the artwork would cover the plate.

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Re: Cabinet Design Help
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2012, 10:01:24 am »
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,121897.0.html

This has a lot of pics of the underside of my panel.

You do have to go the distance through the wood either routing it out so it's smaller or getting longer shafts.

I got long hollow shafts from paradise for my JLFs.  He also sells stiffer springs to give better feel to the longer throw for the long shafts.

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Re: Cabinet Design Help
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2012, 02:37:35 pm »
Thanks Trip, that cleared things up a lot.

I'm undecided whether to go with a wooden panel or if a metal panel would be a better option.

Has anyone had experience with metal panels? I have access to a cnc milling machine and am thinking about drawing it out in solidworks and having both the metal and acrylic cut.  I have seen a few builds using the Nanacade invisible joystick mounts, but they seem to have gone out of business.  Is there anything like this still available and if not what is the best way to mount trackballs and joysticks to a metal panel?

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Re: Cabinet Design Help
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2012, 02:49:09 pm »
use flush mount machine screws and bondo over the screw heads for a smooth finish or use carriage bolts for a rounded over but removable mount

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Re: Cabinet Design Help
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2012, 12:59:06 am »
Is there a regulation distance between buttons and joystick or between players?  Even a ballpark would be helpful.  I tried to draw up a CP plan today and coming up with numbers was very difficult.  I searched around for a while and couldn't find very many detailed CP layouts. 

If I can get the details of the build nailed down, I can begin ordering parts and start the build.

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Re: Cabinet Design Help
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2012, 01:21:11 am »
Is there a regulation distance between buttons and joystick or between players?  Even a ballpark would be helpful.

Slagcoin is your friend, as are cardboard box test panels.


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Re: Cabinet Design Help
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2012, 04:02:41 am »
When it comes to control panels – less is more!!
I know we all have different taste and preferences, but I consider most of the examples here as frankenpanels.

My personal opinion is that some kind of modular/swappable panel is the second best option, for those who don’t have the possibility to have dedicated cabinets. Then you can have a clean design that is probably more convenient to use as well.
Eventually you would probably realize that the panel most used is the one with two joysticks and 4 buttons per player.
Honestly, how many here do have reoccurring sessions with 3 friends playing 4 player games?

Spinner, yes that is nice. For Arkanoid or Tempest on the actual hardware. So far I have never seen it being emulated properly. If you like Arkanoid or Tempest that much, buy the real hardware =)

Trackballs, are nice for Missile command and maybe Marble madness. Have never tried it emulated though, so I can’t tell if it’s worth it or not.
But once again, will you play it that much so it can be justified to have a frankenpanel? Yes, there are some good examples with trackballs, but as soon as you add 5 additional joysticks and 76 buttons you are back at frankenpanel.

My experience is that the more options you have, the less playing time it will be, because you simply get bored within 5 minutes and try another game. Find out what your actual favorite games are and concentrate on them. That will give you more satisfaction in the end. And if possible, build/buy dedicated cabinets or at least dedicated panels.

Finally this hobby is all about living your dream, and play games that you love. So what is right for you can’t really be questioned by others.
However, from the esthetic perspective I will never stop crying every time I see first builders going all in with everything arcade related they could ever think of and trying to mix it on a frankenpanel  that is more than twice as wide as the cabinet itself.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 04:11:30 am by matsadona »
Building, collecting and playing arcade machines :)

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Re: Cabinet Design Help
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2012, 07:50:13 am »
When it comes to control panels – less is more!!
I know we all have different taste and preferences, but I consider most of the examples here as frankenpanels.

My personal opinion is that some kind of modular/swappable panel is the second best option, for those who don’t have the possibility to have dedicated cabinets. Then you can have a clean design that is probably more convenient to use as well.
Eventually you would probably realize that the panel most used is the one with two joysticks and 4 buttons per player.
Honestly, how many here do have reoccurring sessions with 3 friends playing 4 player games?

Spinner, yes that is nice. For Arkanoid or Tempest on the actual hardware. So far I have never seen it being emulated properly. If you like Arkanoid or Tempest that much, buy the real hardware =)

Trackballs, are nice for Missile command and maybe Marble madness. Have never tried it emulated though, so I can’t tell if it’s worth it or not.
But once again, will you play it that much so it can be justified to have a frankenpanel? Yes, there are some good examples with trackballs, but as soon as you add 5 additional joysticks and 76 buttons you are back at frankenpanel.

My experience is that the more options you have, the less playing time it will be, because you simply get bored within 5 minutes and try another game. Find out what your actual favorite games are and concentrate on them. That will give you more satisfaction in the end. And if possible, build/buy dedicated cabinets or at least dedicated panels.

Finally this hobby is all about living your dream, and play games that you love. So what is right for you can’t really be questioned by others.
However, from the esthetic perspective I will never stop crying every time I see first builders going all in with everything arcade related they could ever think of and trying to mix it on a frankenpanel  that is more than twice as wide as the cabinet itself.

Mine sits in a motorcycle garage/shop, friends come over all the time to wrench and it's constantly played by 4 people on weekends.

Trackball gets used a ton for bowling and golden tee.  If you like trackball games, it's gonna get used A LOT.

Spinnner is the only thing that I feel I could of probably left off if you wanted to free some space.  It doesn't get used a bunch for tempest or akranoid at my house, someone will want to try Ivan Stewart's Off Road with it more than any other game.

However, with all that said I agree with you, definitely would be cooler to have a bunch of dedicated cabinets with different CP layouts than one big franken panel, but I don't think my wife would be fond of that.  HA HA.

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Re: Cabinet Design Help
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2012, 03:58:38 am »
Mine sits in a motorcycle garage/shop, friends come over all the time to wrench and it's constantly played by 4 people on weekends.
Then I agree that a 4 player panel might be motivated. However my opinion is that there is only one 4 player cabinet that isn’t ugly, and that’s Gauntlet. Happens also to be the only 4 player game I really love. I envy all of you that could gather friends to have 4 players sessions with that one =)

However, with all that said I agree with you, definitely would be cooler to have a bunch of dedicated cabinets with different CP layouts than one big franken panel, but I don't think my wife would be fond of that.  HA HA.
This hobby of mine started with a MAME cabinet also. And I do understand that most people doesn’t have a big house less an understanding wife that of course limit the possibilities. So for the majority of people here some kind of compromise is the only way to gaming nirvana. But I still think it doesn’t have to end with a frankenpanel.

I am a very fortunate man that qualifies on both a big house and an understanding girlfriend, so I have a lot of arcade cabinets nowadays. That might also be a reason why people are scattered on gaming nights and it’s hard to get more than 2 people interested in the same game at the same time. Hopefully that will change when I finish my Track & Field cocktail build =)
Building, collecting and playing arcade machines :)

Cynicaster

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Re: Cabinet Design Help
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2012, 01:06:46 pm »

I was recently looking into a new project and considering a spinner, since it is something that my original cabinet doesn’t have.

I was actually pretty enthusiastic about the idea at first, but after researching it a bit, I’m left with the distinct impression that it’s just not worth it unless there is a specific game that you absolutely MUST be able to play.  I don’t care about Tempest and Arkanoid, and I honestly can’t name a single other spinner game.  Oh, there’s Avalanche.  But I have a 2600, and Kaboom! has nicer colors.  So, I deep-sixed that idea in a hurry—in my case it would be a waste of time, money, and space. 

As for using it for an ersatz steering wheel, buyer beware—unlike joysticks and trackballs, arcade steering controls are much more difficult to make “generic”.  From what I was able to gather, the spinner is only workable on the games with “free spinning” wheels like Pole Position and Iron Man Stewart, and completely sucks for games that use the 270degree wheels (for example).