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Author Topic: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!  (Read 113510 times)

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adder

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #160 on: July 09, 2013, 10:45:46 am »
rCadeGaming can u give me any general modeline tweaking tips regarding getting as many viewable lines (height) as possible on a tv please (fyi im still using powerstrip at the moment as im kind of used to it)

talking low res modes, the problem i have with my beko tv is i feel im not seeing enough visible lines (i lose too much off the top and bottom of the picture).  note: i have pulled in the top and bottom of the screen in the tv service menu by quite a lot.   you can see in my Commando pics earlier in this thread that im losing the entire score area at the top of the screen, and i cant see how many grenades are remaining at the bottom of the screen.  ok so the game Commando height is 256 lines so maybe i cant display it all on a horizontal tv, but id be happy with even just a couple of more lines. every single line is precious at this point :)

mainly im wondering, does the amount of visible (height) lines very between tv brands, ie. can some tv's display more than others? (eg. is scan rate a key factor, ie. a tv must be able to handle high scan rate values in order to display a lot of lines?)

also, what part does refresh rate play... can u get more visibile lines if u have a game at eg. 58hz instead of 60hz? you might think im crazy (as i know u like things looking and running as they did at the arcades), but id sooner play commando at 58hz if i can see more of the screen rather than 60hz but have the top and bottom of the screen cut off). the 2hz reduction in overall gameplay speed honestly doesnt bother me.   note: i use the soundsync feature in mameuifx so gameplay-wise the game will still remain perfectly smooth the way it scrolls, and the way the music/sound is heard (no stuttering etc)

regarding modelines, is there a link between horizontal and vertical geometry/size with regards to how many lines in height u can display on a tv, or are they mostly independent so to speak

does vertical front/back porch play a key role. should both of these amounts be set very low eg. 0 or 1? and what about sync width...
im even struggling understanding the relationship between 'active' and 'total' lines tbh (im forever noob, i know :lol)

sorry this post ended up a bit long, i will mess around some more with powerstrip advanced timing and look at the tv service menu again. any tips or advice would be most welcome. cheers!

Rigby

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #161 on: July 09, 2013, 02:32:01 pm »
when you work with a tube TV that is driven by a TV chassis, you are limited to NTSC resolution.  You can adjust how much shows on screen, if the chassis supports it, via picture height and width controls.  Out of the factory there is always overscan; picture that you cannot see because it is covered by the frame.

The only avenue I know of for increasing the amount of lines your TV can display is to make adjustments to minimize overscan.  No matter what is driving the TV, it will have to speak NTSC in order for the TV to display it, so you're going to be bound by that.


All lies.  I was misinformed and this entire post is incorrect.  IGNORE!
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 04:08:04 pm by Rigby »

adder

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #162 on: July 09, 2013, 04:30:24 pm »
thought i would add a bit more info if that helps:

example game used: Rastan by Taito - 320x240

so as u can see in the pic below, i lose the top and bottom of the screen (where it says HIGH SCORE, and CREDIT)

and that's with my beko tv vertical size adjusted so the screen is really pulled in (in the pic u can even see that visible line thing u get at the top of tv's if u pull them in too far vertically)

my powerstrip settings are below. needless to say i suck at this stuff and cant seem to get my head around it (which is weird for me as usually if i mess around with something long enough i figure it all out through trial and error ???)

surely my tv can display 240 lines :banghead:




rCadeGaming

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #163 on: July 09, 2013, 09:39:26 pm »
when you work with a tube TV that is driven by a TV chassis, you are limited to NTSC resolution.

Rigby, sorry to be a dick, but this is completely false.  It is one of the big misconceptions that keeps people from understanding that a standard definition TV is a highly viable option for GENUINE classic arcade resolutions.  Please read through the thread before posting misinformation, and do not spread this around any further.

Yes, North American standard definition TV's are designed primarily to display a standard NTSC signal, but this in no way means that they are strictly limited to it.  They can display ANYTHING reasonably close to 15kHz horizontal scan rate and 60Hz vertical scan rate. 

Case in point: The NTSC standard is 480i.  Not a single game console from the ATARI to the Nintendo 64 sticks to 480i.  They all ran in 240p or less most of the time.  The NES outputs 256x224p, but you won't have any trouble displaying it on a standard def TV; and no, the TV was not upscaling to 480i before actually displaying.  TV's did not have any scaling capabilities until hi-def CRT's and flat panels came out in the 2000's, and visible scanlines are proof that you're looking at 15kHz progressive.

Long story short, 90% of games in MAME run somewhere between 224p and 256p, and all of these can be displayed in native res on a standard def TV if you know what you're doing.

-

Jadder, first are you still using Soft15kHz and Powerstrip?  If you've got a Radeon X300 you need to switch to CRT_Emudriver ASAP.  You'll have a MUCH better time making adjustments in ArcadeOSD than Powerstrip.

I'm working on a big write-up to answer some of your questions, but it will probably have to wait a week or so while I'm out of town.  For now, make sure you're actually telling MAME to use an appropriate resolution of at least 240 lines when running Rastan.  Open the options specific to that game, make sure you have the right resolution selected, and make sure switch resolutions to fit is checked.

If that is all good and you still can't get all the lines visible, then start looking for another TV.  A good Trinitron will give you plenty of adjustment in the service menu to show the full 256 lines of R-Type!

adder

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #164 on: July 10, 2013, 08:36:51 am »
cool, cheers Rob.  if it is the beko tv limiting the amount of lines and not my modelines settings, then i will feel better about my lack of progress, as ive tried for hours to fit more lines in but just cant get past about 234 in height!

im not using soft15khz, all i use is powerstrip to generate the modelines which are then added to the windows registry
then in mame i choose the corresponding resolution for each of the games (eg. the 512x240 resolution for rastan).

when i set up my mame pc i cant remember if i used the crt_emudrivers when installing the video card, but i think i did. i may try arcadeOSD then but to be honest i personally only really need about 10 modelines, which is enough to run everything i like (without stretching the height of course. i dont allow any of that). anyway i have set up all of those modelines already in powerstrip and they are all sitting comfortably in my windows registry. its just a case of my tv cant handle the height of the 240 and above modelines it seems.

if i do start over in the future though with a new mame project, i would switch from mameuifx (with its soundsync feature) and powerstrip,  ...  to groovymame, crt_emudriver, arcade osd.. that's clearly the way forward. i'm not quite ready for that just yet, but tomorrow is a different day.. ;)

i will start looking for another tv! :)
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 09:29:04 am by jadder »

Rigby

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #165 on: July 10, 2013, 08:42:59 am »
Rigby, sorry to be a dick,

Then don't be.  If you're going to be a dick on purpose, I would ask you why, and what you hope to accomplish with that.

but this is completely false.  It is one of the big misconceptions that keeps people from understanding that a standard definition TV is a highly viable option for GENUINE classic arcade resolutions.  Please read through the thread before posting misinformation, and do not spread this around any further.

I have no issues being wrong.  I learned a lot from your post despite the combative attitude.  If you're sorry to be a dick then don't be one in the first place.  It is easier to teach others, and easier for willing students to learn, by using a supportive tone rather than a spiteful one.

I'm aware that the NES and other consoles never displayed 480i, but I always assumed it was because they simply failed to draw the 2nd field of the picture (odd scanlines only, or even or whatever it is) not that they manhandled the signal enough to nearly fully ignore the NTSC standard.

I'd have thought it obvious why I falsely assumed this; NTSC and PAL are relatively close but we all know they are incompatible with one another.  480i and 576i are a lot closer to each other than 480i and 224p are, at least at first glance.

So anyway I learned a lot from you and I thank you.  If you're at all worried about my opinion of you, don't, but if you don't want to be a dick, then don't be one.  Sorry to say that three times but I want to make sure you and others know that I consider post language and tone to be fully under the post author's control.

rCadeGaming

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #166 on: July 10, 2013, 01:59:33 pm »
I felt that what I was saying was something that had to be said.  I wasn't just trying to "be a dick on purpose."   My main priority was to be very clear and direct, as I felt it was very important to prevent anyone else reading from taking your statement as fact, and prevent it from spreading any further.  That being said, I realized it may come off as harsh, which is why I said "sorry to be a dick."

What I meant was "sorry if this is harsh, but I feel it needs to be said." 

If I was at all spiteful I think it was because you'd jumped into the middle of a thread and posted harmful misinformation that you could have known is not true if you had read through the thread so far prior to posting; but I realize that it's a long thread and perhaps you didn't have the time just yet, it was a hasty reaction on my part.  Again, I apologize if I came off as a jerk.

-

Jadder, I just noticed something, if Rastan runs in 320x240, why are you running it in 512x240?  That would either leave quite a lot of black space to the left and right, or result in uneven horizontal stretching if stretched to fit.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 02:01:45 pm by rCadeGaming »

adder

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #167 on: July 10, 2013, 03:23:06 pm »
Quote from: rCadeGaming
Jadder, I just noticed something, if Rastan runs in 320x240, why are you running it in 512x240?  That would either leave quite a lot of black space to the left and right, or result in uneven horizontal stretching if stretched to fit.

no reason really, it just seemed to work ok so i left it alone, and i wasnt keen on setting up a large amount of modelines, so i figured if i have a high horizontal res amount, then all the '? x 240' games i play can share that one resolution. im quite fussy when it comes to scaling so if there was noticable stretching on the horizontal i would tackle that problem. if it's there, i cant see it (or havnt seen it so far anyway. to be honest i havnt played a huge amount of games so far though). the horizontal is my friend at the moment. it's the vertical which is my enemy ;)
i will try to source another tv
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 09:37:23 pm by jadder »

Rigby

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #168 on: July 10, 2013, 04:08:51 pm »
I realize that it's a long thread and perhaps you didn't have the time just yet, it was a hasty reaction on my part.  Again, I apologize if I came off as a jerk.

No worries.  I fixed the post.

adder

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #169 on: July 11, 2013, 07:31:25 pm »
update:
i managed to try another tv, i dont believe it is a particularly good brand (ALBA) but it's all i have here at the moment

so my beko crt tv couldnt display more than 234 lines regardless of how much you pull in the vertical size in the tv service menu..
the ALBA tv, after i pulled in the vertical size in its service menu, can manage 243 visible lines. it might not sound like much of an improvement but it most definitely improves eg. seeing scores at the top of the screen or lives remaining at the bottom

im not sure i will actually stick with the alba tv though, as the picture quality is not quite what i hoped, the remote control only half works, the tv always comes on in standby mode, and the interlace mode i set up for displaying Windows desktop is rolling (ok i could fix that in powerstrip....)

well anyway, the search continues. gonna try other tv's and hope to get closer to 256 visible lines. freakin hope i can find a sony or panasonic crt tv :)
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 10:18:33 pm by jadder »

notbillcosby

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #170 on: July 22, 2013, 10:38:25 am »
It's been too long since I've posted; I've been involved in a drawn-out move from one city to another that has severely cut into my ability to really work on my machine. Instead, I've spent my free time PLAYING THE HELL OUT OF IT with friends. Donkey Kong and Burger Time, man....

My Sony cuts the top and bottom off, exactly like the pictures shown above. In most/all games I've moved the screen with the MAME controls to find a compromise where I can see the bulk of what I need to in order to play the game. If I'm missing a few pixels of Score at the top and a few of how-many-lives-I-have at the bottom, it does irk me a little bit just because of the amount of time I've spent on this, but ultimately it has no real effect on my gaming. Some time ago, when my TV moved from sitting on the floor next to my computer to being gutted so the case could be cut down, and then jostled AGAIN to get into my cabinet, the geometry of the screen changed. I had to spend some very real time in the service menu adjusting things as best I could... I do not remember if the tops and bottoms were cut off before this, but I know things got slid strangely off to the side. That was an easy 5 or 6 months ago so my recollection is hazy at best.

I'm one of the chumps still using Powerstrip. The idea of starting over with a new build of MAME is extremely daunting to me, especially if it involves downloading a whole new ROMset and stuff. I'm probably going to just keep playing for now until my apartment is arranged in a way that I can comfortably dig into this for a few months again. It's just so hard to want to do the un-fun tasks of computer junk when I've got a high score to beat.
Ian's BurgerBoss Cabinet project build thread!
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,129225.0.html

rCadeGaming

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #171 on: July 22, 2013, 06:18:23 pm »
Hey notbill, good to see you back.  You don't need to switch to GroovyMAME to use CRT_Emudriver, you can use it with your current MAME setup ;D.  That's what I did because I'm waiting until the new GroovyMAME with manually defined modelines comes out.  Anyhow, it's just a matter of swapping out the graphics card and changing the drivers.

nadcraker

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #172 on: September 02, 2013, 12:16:22 pm »
Any thoughts on the Sony KV-27FS200? I had a KV-27FS100 but...it didn't work out :-\

The KV-27FS200 seems to be the same set, just with an extra RF adapter?

I can get one on Craigslist pretty cheap is why I am asking.

Thanks!

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #173 on: September 03, 2013, 05:58:19 pm »
I'm not familiar with either of those TV's.  The 27" Trinitrons I'm working with now are the KV-27FS120 and KD-27FS170.  I find the tubes to be of much better quality on the KV's (at least as calibrated from factory, I will have to try improving that on the KD's), but the KD has an interesting behavior which is *extremely* useful for MAME:

In addition to MAME, my TV is also set up for consoles (real hardware).  So, I have my service menu geometry adjusted to a happy medium for the common ~224p resolutions from older consoles.  I've found this is great for MAME as well.  There are a ton of games that run around 224p.  To fit a few more lines, adjust overscan, etc, you can get some vertical size adjustment using a combination of horizontal scan rate and total horizontal pixel adjustment.  To fit in something a lot taller, like 256p, there is an interesting behavior of the TV that can be exploited.  If you increase the total lines (total, not active) to over 288 in progressive the picture will snap to a much smaller size, and a much larger resolution will fit on-screen.  If you find this value in ArcadeOSD, you'll literally see a huge change in size as you cross over it.  256p games now fit very well. 

For example, I can switch between Street Fighter II (224p) and R-Type (256p) with no service menu adjustments, and have the exact amount of overscan I want in both.  This works the same with interlaced resolutions (the boundary value is the same amount of lines per field, or double that amount per frame), and I have my desktop running in 704@512i, to make Windows a little more manageable.  So my tip is to learn to how use these two different "pictures sizes" above and below this total horizontal line value.  Optimize the smaller picture size for 224p, and the larger size for 256p. 

A real console, like a SNES or Genesis will provide a good reference for a standard "224p picture size" to shoot for when adjusting the service menu.  I also use a PS3 to output test patterns in NTSC standard 480i.  Using a PC isn't the best point of reference to begin with because your modelines can vary all over the place.

Yes, I've heard about this before, and it's something that should be considered. I wonder if that boundary total lines value is constant or depends on some other variable like vfreq or something. If it's constant, then it would be quite easy to model it by doing two separate ranges as mikecrj is doing. I believe this was designed to make these TVs autoadustable when switching between PAL/NTSC frames.

The NTSC/PAL switching theory makes perfect sense.  I think the boundary of 288 lines is constant, as I've used it with a few different resolutions of varying vertical scan rate.

I went back to a KV-27FS120 and I was not able to replicate this boundary value behavior.  I double checked, and it works consistently with both KD-27FS170's I have, but I could NOT get it working with either of my KV-27FS120's... It just seems to start losing sync around 285 lines regardless of h and v scan rates, and from what I can see through the rolling image, the size change doesn't seem to happen at 288.  The strange thing is that both models are supposed to be chassis BA-6 according to the service manual, so I feel like there must be something I'm missing.

EDIT:  I just noticed that the service manuals for these models list both as chassis type BA-6, but they also have more specific chassis numbers which are different.

KV-27FS120 - Chassis no. SCC-S61N-A
KD-27FS120 - Chassis no. SCC-S61Y-A

So, it is in fact a different model of chassis.

I'm going to try driving a KV-27FS120 tube with a KD-27FS120 chassis (SCC-S61Y-A).

If you can pick up a KV-27FS200 to test out please do.  I've gone through over a dozen TV's just for testing.  It sounds like it's in the range of models which should be appropriate for MAME (15kHz-only, component input).  What chassis is it?  Also, I'd be very interested if you could confirm or deny whether that model exhibits the 288 line boundary behavior.  Having another model to look for and to recommend would be great.

What happened to your KV-27FS100?
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 04:40:03 pm by rCadeGaming »

nadcraker

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #174 on: September 04, 2013, 02:11:44 pm »
Quote
What happened to your KV-27FS100?

I put a hole in the tube.

I am very new to this kind of monitor stuff, but by all means I will try to help out.  How can I tell what chassis it has?

rCadeGaming

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #175 on: September 04, 2013, 04:39:34 pm »
Well s**t!  Sounds like a good story.

Find the service manual which covers that model, and it will list the chassis type.  Thanks for the help.

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #176 on: September 04, 2013, 06:05:58 pm »
According to the service manual, it says BA-5D, but then has the following table:

MODEL         DESTINATION            CHASSIS NO.

KV-27FS100      US                       SCC-S65D-A
KV-27FS100      CND                    SCC-S64D-A
KV-27FS200      US                      SCC-S65E-A
KV-29FS100      LATIN NORTH      SCC-S62H-A
KV-29FS100      LATIN SOUTH      SCC-S62J-A
KV-32FS100      US                      SCC-S65F-A
KV-32FS100      CND                   SCC-S64E-A
KV-32FS200      US                      SCC-S65G-A
KV-34FS100      LATIN NORTH      SCC-S62K-A
KV-34FS100      LATIN SOUTH      SCC-S62L-A
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 06:10:39 pm by nadcraker »

rCadeGaming

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #177 on: September 04, 2013, 11:05:58 pm »
Cool.  It looks like a great candidate for old school consoles and 15kHz native res from MAME.  Only testing will tell us about the 288 line boundary behavior, which I would be grateful to hear about.

If you go for it, let us know your results.  Hold onto that service manual, it will be very handy when you're setting up the geometry and such in the service menu.

Tzakiel

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #178 on: September 25, 2013, 07:14:47 pm »
Really appreciate this thread... thanks rCadeGaming for all the info here.  I am building a UAII cabinet from north coast, I think the interior width is 27" wide.  I believe some 27" televisions fit inside, such as the "old" trinitron I have now which has only S-video, and speakers on bottom rather than sides.

Any other TVs with component that are 27" and might fit?  Like others, I am really scared I will kill myself with voltage if I take the casing off the 27" WEGA trinitron you recommend.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 10:21:05 pm by Tzakiel »
My Fighter CRT Cabinet Thread: Tzakiel's 2P Cabinet

rCadeGaming

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #179 on: September 25, 2013, 10:43:11 pm »
No problem Tzakiel, just trying to keep the authentic video aspect of this hobby alive.   :cheers:

Discharging a CRT is something you need to learn if you want to use them properly in arcade cabs.  Just be careful and read the sticky for instructions.  It's very easy and once you've done it once or twice it won't be a big deal anymore.

As for recommendations I'd go for something in the KV-27FS range.  The one I can best vouch for is the KV-27FS120.

Don't bother with the KD-27FS170 I mentioned above.  The size switching at 288 total lines is nice, but the picture quality is very poor.  Geometry is unstable across different modelines, and focus is awful anywhere except the center of the screen.  I had planned on trying to connect its chassis to a KV27FS-120 tube to get the best of both worlds (KD model has size switching, KV has excellent picture quality).  Upon taking it apart, I found that they actually use the same model of tube, so switching the chassis between them is no help.  The poor picture quality seem to come from the design of the chassis itself.  The two models do also have slightly different driver boards, deflection yokes, and flybacks, so I also tried switching these around in various combinations (using the KV driver board and flyback with the KD chassis took a good deal of hacking things up), but couldn't get satisfactory results.

Eventually, I spent some time looking over all the games I consider worth playing in MAME to get some perspective.  A few hundred if you really stretch the definition of "worth playing."  What I found is that among the 15kHz games (which are the great majority), anything over 240p is actually pretty rare.  224p is by far the most common, with 240p in a distant second, and a few odd resolutions in between 224-240 lines being third.  There's not a lot that's notable over 240 lines, except the Irem m72.c games (R-Type I and II, Ninja Spirit, Image Fight, X-Multiply, all 256p), and various Midway hardware games (NBA Jam/TE/Hangtime, MK I-III if you're into that, all 253p).  There are in fact only a handful of games over 240 lines per field that I'd consider worth playing, maybe a dozen, which is not significant among hundreds of others.  So, the size switching isn't that important, as it's rarely needed, and I can make some compromises with that small handful of games.

In my case I'm also using consoles, which are never more than 240 lines per field (480i is still 240 lines per field, so it's the same vertical size as 240p).  I'm also building a separate cab with a vertical screen for vertical games.  So I'll never have to deal with running vertical games on a horizontal monitor (yoko), like Jadder and some other people here are trying to pull off.

Another consideration is that KD27-FS170's are pretty rare, whereas KV-27FS120's are very common.

Long story short, I decided to stick with the KV27FS-120.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 09:47:24 pm by rCadeGaming »

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #180 on: September 25, 2013, 11:09:35 pm »
Oh btw, I'm assuming you're in the US.  TV selection is a whole different story in PAL territories.

As for mounting a TV or monitor in a cab while it's still in its case, here's something to scare you straight:

http://www.wickedretarded.com/~crapmame/

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #181 on: September 25, 2013, 11:58:21 pm »
I'm using a Sharp 27uf-500 TV, which you can fit in an arcade without removing from the case.  I think the picture quality is good, but I do have a little bit of over scan.

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #182 on: September 26, 2013, 11:04:15 am »
rCadeGaming,

Thanks much for your helpful reply. I think you may have convinced me to pick up the 27" wega trinitron and take it out of the casing. No way it will fit with those speakers on there. I guess I am still a bit nervous however. Is there any way to know what I can and cannot touch inside before I do the discharge?  And if I need to mess with it after I have it in the cabinet and have turned it on, can I touch the inputs, etc in the back without worrying about shock?

Speaking of getting it into the cabinet, that is another area of worry for me. It's a 100lb tube and, without the casing, I imagine it will be extremely unwieldy (and delicate) to lift and maneuver. Is there some sort of guide I can take a look at to building a safe frame for this type of tube, or how to get that started? I picture myself with a 100lb piece of fragile glass on the floor and no idea how to get that into a cabinet without breaking it. I am comfortable using wood pieces to make a frame for it, and I assume I would do that on the floor or table first, then load it in, but I am wondering how to attach it safely, and what height to mount it in the UAII, etc. I assume I can just mount it onto 2x4s, but not sure what shape or angles I need to create.  I guess the height will be up to me and I will just make a painted plexiglass cover/bezel for it to hide the empty space. I wonder if there is some tutorial or series of steps someone has documented about this?

No problem Tzakiel, just trying to keep the authentic video aspect of this hobby alive.   :cheers:

Discharging a CRT is something you need to learn if you want to use them properly in arcade cabs.  Just be careful and read the sticky for instructions.  It's very easy and once you've done it once or twice it won't be a big deal anymore.

As for recommendations I'd go for something in the KV-27FS range.  The one I can best vouch for is the KV-27FS120.
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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #183 on: September 27, 2013, 12:03:37 pm »
So do scanlines appear on all CRT tvs, or only when fed a 240p source?  I am using s-video (480i, then, I suppose) right now on a trinitron which does not have component in, and the games look blurry, I would say, but not really stacked in scanline rows like I see with rCadeGaming's examples. I'm just wondering if they should be there or not (even if not in native res)
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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #184 on: September 27, 2013, 05:44:24 pm »
in interlace mode you will lose the scanlines,   you have to stay in low res modes to see them, eg. 224 / 240 / 256 lines etc

as for the scanlines themselves, i have found the strength of the scanlines (ie. how visible they are) seems to vary between tv to tv (but i admit it could just be my imagination :))

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #185 on: September 27, 2013, 07:56:52 pm »
Is there any way to know what I can and cannot touch inside before I do the discharge?  And if I need to mess with it after I have it in the cabinet and have turned it on, can I touch the inputs, etc in the back without worrying about shock?

Once it has been unplugged and the tube has been discharged, you should be able to touch absolutely any part of it safely.  The only exception is maybe if there's some huge capacitors that still are still holding a charge, but it's not very likely.

While it's on is another story.  Anything plastic, rubber, or glass is safe.  The big flat black area on the back of the tube is safe.  Any of the empty space on the circuit boards, usually brown, green, or blue areas, is safe.  The disc magnets on the neck and the little magnets that may be scattered around the back of the tube are safe.  What's not safe is any kind of exposed conductor that may be carrying voltage.  This includes components on the circuit boards, the silver/grey colored solder joints on the boards, any exposed copper traces, and ESPECIALLY any exposed copper wire, like the windings of deflection yoke coil. 

Knowing what you can and can't touch is important of you want to make geometry or convergence adjustments at the neck, which requires you to have your hands in there while it's on (I you don't disturb this stuff while moving the tube, you can leave this alone).  If you're unsure of anything check it with a multimeter.  Set it to measure voltage, connect the black probe to chassis ground, and touch the red probe to whatever's in question.  If it reads zero volts, it's probably safe.

Is there some sort of guide I can take a look at to building a safe frame for this type of tube, or how to get that started?

Maybe, search around.  Nothing I can think of right now.  I'm planning to just secure the four mounting ears to some wooden brackets in my cabs.  Let me know what you find or come up with.

I picture myself with a 100lb piece of fragile glass on the floor and no idea how to get that into a cabinet without breaking it.

Just don't pick it up by the neck (the skinny part in the back).  That is the only part of the tube that is fragile, the rest is very sturdy.  Many tubes are an inch thick of glass is most places.  The tube shouldn't be 100lbs.  I can carry around my 27" sets on my own, tube, chassis, case and all.

I guess the height will be up to me

Here's some advice for every aspect of this hobby.  Never take anything straight from paper plans to the final copy.  Make physical mock-ups to test everything.  Stack up some boards, crates, whatever, and set the TV on it.  Mock up your control panel with some scrap wood or cardboard.  It doesn't matter what it looks like.  The point is just that you can play it for a while and try lots of different things.  Play with the height of the screen, angle, distance from the control panel, control panel angle and height, button layouts, etc.  It's the only way to figure out what will be the most comfortable.  Nothing's worse than building a nice looking cab and then finding out that it's not as comfortable to play as you imagined it would be.

and I will just make a painted plexiglass cover/bezel for it to hide the empty space. I wonder if there is some tutorial or series of steps someone has documented about this?

Search about using tinted glass.  There are some good threads about it.  As for a bezel, the nice thing about a flat face tube is that you can just mask off the viewing area of a flat piece of glass/plexi, and spray paint the inside black.

So do scanlines appear on all CRT tvs, or only when fed a 240p source?  I am using s-video (480i, then, I suppose) right now on a trinitron which does not have component in, and the games look blurry, I would say, but not really stacked in scanline rows like I see with rCadeGaming's examples. I'm just wondering if they should be there or not (even if not in native res)

When a video technician hears the term "scanlines," he thinks we mean each line of video being scanned on the CRT, which is technically much more correct, but when we say "scanlines" in the gaming community we are generally referring to the black spaces in between each line of video.  I stick to that popular definition here.

There are a lot of things that determine how distinct the scanlines are.  A big factor is the dot pitch of the screen.  This is defined by the design of the aperture grille or shadow mask, and determines how sharply defined individual pixels will be. 

The black spaces in between each line of video are just areas that weren't lit up by the electron beams.  So, the finer the dot pitch, the finer each line will be, and the more black space will there will be in between them.  The thickness of each line will the be about the same whether you're using 240p or 480i, but with 480i you're packing twice as many lines into the same space, so there's going to be a lot less black space in between them if any.

So, yes, it's normal not to see any scanlines in 480i.  It depends on the dot pitch though.  Some CRT's have a fine enough pitch that faint scan lines can still be seen in 480i, and then of course on that same CRT the scanlines in 240p will be very bold.  On the other hand, older CRT's can have such a coarse dot pitch that scanlines aren't even visible in 240p (by the design of the era, dot pitch won't change due to aging).

The brightness/contrast/color saturation also affects how thick each line of video will appear, and therefore how much black space is left in between lines.  You'll notice in gameplay that scanlines are thinnest with a bright white screen.  I wouldn't recommend setting your brightness/contrast/color settings with scanline size in mind though.  The set should be calibrated properly, and then the scanlines are what they are.  You just have to pick a model with the scanline thickness you prefer.

EDIT:  Focus and convergence also have a big effect on the visibility of scanlines.  Both may be adjustable, but the latter is much more of an endeavor.

-

Aaaaaanyway.  That's not the TV you're going to use right?  Going through all the work of using a CRT isn't worth it if you're not reaping the benefits.  S-video out from a PC is not a viable option for authentic arcade picture.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 06:45:58 pm by rCadeGaming »

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #186 on: September 27, 2013, 08:14:03 pm »
I'm using it for now but plan to replace it once i have all of the other pieces in place. Think I understand what those are for now. Meanwhile, I don't even have the cab. :)  I'll replace it with either the same tube you have or with a compact 27" component in tv.
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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #187 on: October 07, 2013, 07:49:27 pm »
Since I've been linking to them a lot recently, I thought I should post all of the test patterns I have to share here.  Some of these were taken from a great program called Nokia Monitor Test, which unfortunately only seems to work in XP32.

To calibrate a 15kHz TV or arcade monitor, display these in full screen in 480i.  If possible, it's preferable to use a game console to do this.  I use a PS3.  The problem with just displaying them from the PC is that your custom modelines could be all over the place, whereas most game console's 480i outputs will conform to NTSC standards, making them a good reference of where horizontal and vertical center should be.  You can use a PC if you have to, just make sure your 480i desktop modeline is well centered.

-

Geometry Patterns:

http://rcadegaming.com/images/testpatterns/640x480-geometry-white.bmp

http://rcadegaming.com/images/testpatterns/640x480-geometry-red.bmp

http://rcadegaming.com/images/testpatterns/640x480-geometry-green.bmp

http://rcadegaming.com/images/testpatterns/640x480-geometry-blue.bmp

These are used to adjust everything from sizing and centering to pincushion and rotation.

When using these, you might want to leave some overscan (leave the edges cut off) rather than trying to display the whole thing, especially in the vertical direction.  You'll be able to adjust each individual game's horizontal size, horizontal center, and vertical center from the PC.  Vertical size is pretty much fixed to you service menu (or chassis potentiometer) setting though.  A lot of MAME games (and older console games) are only 224p, which is 224 lines per field.  If you try to get the entire 480i test pattern visible, you're showing a full 240 lines per field, which will leave 8-line tall black bars at the top and bottom of the screen during 224p games.  I use a Super Nintendo, which outputs 224p, to make sure I'm showing just about 224 lines.  You can use a 224 line MAME game, like Street Fighter II, just be sure it's well centered.

Also, be sure to carefully set up your vertical linearity and s-correction settings (if available) using these patterns.  These settings are often overlooked, and will cause vertically scrolling objects to have a distorting/warping effect if set up poorly.

-

Brightness and Contrast Patterns:

http://rcadegaming.com/images/testpatterns/640x480-brightness.bmp

This is a good one, but if you actually follow the directions your brightness might be a bit too low.  I usually end up leaving the 1% box just barely visible.  Contrast should be set so that the frames around the edge vary greatly from brightest to darkest, and each step is distinct.  You may need to zoom out or move this one around a bit, as those frames might be going into the overscan.

Brightness and contrast can be hard to perfect, you may find yourself comparing them in many different places throughout the process.

-

Color Patterns:

http://rcadegaming.com/images/testpatterns/320x240-brightness-color-contrast.bmp

http://rcadegaming.com/images/testpatterns/640x480-color.bmp

To calibrate color, you will need to adjust the balance of the individual red, green, and blue color drives.  First, focus only on red, and set it to go a good level.  This depends on your preference.  You can make it as vibrant as you want, but you will be able to see when it becomes oversaturated as subtle differences in shade blur together and it will bleed over onto neighboring areas.  Try this both in-game, and using the two test patterns above.

These two patterns are also good for setting the lower cutoff levels of red, green, and blue, if available.  They will also show how brightness and contrast effect color levels.

http://rcadegaming.com/images/testpatterns/320x240-color-yellow.bmp

Next focus on pure yellow.  In terms of light, pure yellow is an equal mix of red and green.  So, now that red is set, adjust only green.  When there is too much green, yellow will have a green tint.  When there is too little, it will have a red tint.  Pure yellow means red and green are well balanced.

http://rcadegaming.com/images/testpatterns/320x240-color-white.bmp

Finally, focus on pure white, which is equal parts red, green, and blue.  Since the other two are set, finish by adjusting only blue.  When there is too much blue, white will have a blue or "cool" tint.  When there is too little, it will have a yellow or "warm" tint.  Some people may prefer a cool or warm tint, but I just set it as neutral as I can.  Pure white means the colors are well balanced.

http://rcadegaming.com/images/testpatterns/320x240-color-red.bmp

http://rcadegaming.com/images/testpatterns/320x240-color-green.bmp

http://rcadegaming.com/images/testpatterns/320x240-color-blue.bmp

Pure red, green, and blue patterns can be used while adjusting purity and convergence.  These are advanced adjustments though.

-

Focus Patterns:

http://rcadegaming.com/images/testpatterns/640x480-focus.bmp

Simply adjust focus to achieve the desired sharpness.  This may also affect scanline visibility.  If a focus adjustment isn't available in a digital menu or with a potentiometer somewhere, there may be an adjustment inside the TV on the flyback.

-

1080p Test Patterns:


http://rcadegaming.com/images/testpatterns/1920x1080-brightness.bmp

http://rcadegaming.com/images/testpatterns/1920x1080-color.bmp

These really don't belong in this thread, but since I'm sharing all the test patterns I have available here, I'll put them up.  They're good for calibrating a modern TV or computer monitor.  While doing so I also refer to the color patterns above.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2014, 09:33:26 am by rCadeGaming »

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #188 on: October 07, 2013, 07:55:51 pm »
Here's an update on the current availability of RGB to component transcoders.

I'm still using this:

http://www.crescendo-systems.com/transcoder.html

I use the TC1600 VGA to component transcoder (scroll down a bit on that page), which is a little more expensive, but the TC1500 will also do the job very well.  It just lacks some optional adjustments that most people will probably never use with game hardware.

*****
UPDATE 11/14/2014:  The Crescendo Systems website is currently down.  Looks like the domain is up for sale.  I was sorry to see this.  I'm not sure what happened, but I know that the "company" was actually a one-man operation run by an enthusiast named Kim Beumer.  His products and support were world class, but my guess is that it was not his day job.  He could have called it quits due lack of business (he served a tiny niche market), or he could have just had some more important life obligations.  If anyone has any idea what happened, please let me know.  I have spoken with Kim a few times via email, but the address I have is "@crescendo-systems.com" so I don't think that'll be of any use now.  Anyone who still wants a TC1600 could try contracting BYOAC member notbillcosby.  He wanted to sell his a while ago, and I don't think he did yet.  Aside from that, I guess my only recommendation for now is the CVS-287, below.  There are also some dedicated IC's available for building your own transcoder circuit, which I'll probably look into eventually.
*****

A cheaper option than either of those, but one that still works very well, is a CVS-287 RGB SCART to component transcoder:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-SCART-RGB-to-YPbPr-Component-Video-Converter-Scaler-/370695549217?pt=US_Audio_Cables_Adapters&hash=item564f2d3121

These work well, I have tested one personally.  However, to use it you'll have to make a VGA to SCART adapter.  If you can solder, it's very easy.  Just get a female VGA connector (also called a female DB-15HD) and hood, and a male SCART connector and hood.  Look up the VGA and SCART pinouts, connect red to red, green to green, blue to blue, and ground to ground.  Horizontal and vertical sync from the VGA connector must be combined to make composite sync.  This is done by running each through a 1N4148 diode and connecting them together.  Then connect that to the composite sync connection in the SCART connector.



Note that this schematic is only to intended for use with a CVS-287.  It has not been tested for other devices with SCART inputs, which may need switching voltages provided.

-

There are also transcoders available from RCA, Audio Authority, and JS technologies, but it hasn't been confirmed that these will work consistently with arcade resolutions, so they should be avoided.  Other users have actually had a lot of problems with the RCA unit; the other two are just unconfirmed.  I have personally tested the TC1500/1600 and the CVS-287 extensively and haven't found any problems.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 11:09:20 am by rCadeGaming »

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #189 on: November 04, 2013, 12:23:34 am »
I found this in my notes just now.  It looks like I was working on a post for something and it never went up.  It was about understanding front and back porch/blanking interval, and how it is used to make adjustments with modelines/timing values.  I might as well post it here:

Think of it this way:  Imagine you've made a resolution of 320x240 progressive.  The active resolution is 320 pixels wide.  The CRT's electron beam will move from left to right as it draws each complete line of 320 pixels, but then it will keep going.  It moves a little further through some blank pixels to until the horizontal sync pulse tells it to jump back to the left side of the screen.  This extra space to the right of the active picture is called the horizontal front porch.  After the electron beam jumps back to the left side, it will move through some more blank pixels before it starts drawing the next active line.  This extra space to the left of the active picture is called the horizontal back porch. 

Since a picture tube is naturally black, scanning blank or "black pixels" just requires that the electron beam doesn't "light them up."  It doesn't have to actually do anything to draw them, so the real function of the blank pixels is that it provides a few microseconds during which the electron beam doesn't have to be accountable anywhere on the screen.  This provides time for the process of the electron beam jumping back to the other side and re-stabilizing before it has to show up again to draw the first pixel of the next line.

Similarly, there are whole blank lines which allow time for the electron beam to jump back to the top of the screen (after being told to by the vertical sync pulse) and re-stabilize before drawing the first line of the next frame.  The extra space below the active picture is called to the vertical front porch, and the extra space above the active picture is called the vertical back porch.

Front and back porch areas are also referred to as blanking intervals sometimes.

Anyhow, you don't want to reduce your front or back porch to little or nothing, as you won't allow enough time for the electron beam to re-stabilize before drawing the next line or frame and have sync pulses taking place during the active drawing time.  This can cause the picture to become unstable or lose sync entirely.

However, adjusting front and back porch within reason is how to change geometry and scan rates while maintaining a given active resolution.

First, the total resolution (active resolution and front and back porch areas all together) will always be centered due to the nature of a CRT, but the active resolution can moved around within the total resolution to adjust centering.

-Increasing horizontal front porch and decreasing horizontal back porch will move the active picture to the left.  Doing the opposite will move it to the right.
-Increasing vertical front porch and decreasing vertical back porch will move the active picture up.  Doing the opposite will move it down.

Second, adjusting the total horizontal resolution will adjust horizontal size and horizontal scan rate.

-Decreasing both horizontal front and back porch will decrease total horizontal resolution, making the active picture appear wider and decreasing horizontal scan rate.

Adjusting total horizontal size, total vertical size, horizontal scan rate, and vertical scan, may all have an effect on vertical size, depending on how your particular display reacts.  However, the effect is extremely small.  Painstaking adjustment from one end of the spectrum to the other will sometimes result in a change of only a line or two, often less.  For all intents and purposes, vertical size adjustment isn't really feasible through timing value changes.  Luckily horizontal position, vertical position, and horizontal size are easily doable.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 07:05:05 pm by rCadeGaming »

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #190 on: November 18, 2013, 07:40:08 pm »
Speaking of getting it into the cabinet, that is another area of worry for me. It's a 100lb tube and, without the casing, I imagine it will be extremely unwieldy (and delicate) to lift and maneuver. Is there some sort of guide I can take a look at to building a safe frame for this type of tube, or how to get that started? I picture myself with a 100lb piece of fragile glass on the floor and no idea how to get that into a cabinet without breaking it. I am comfortable using wood pieces to make a frame for it, and I assume I would do that on the floor or table first, then load it in, but I am wondering how to attach it safely, and what height to mount it in the UAII, etc. I assume I can just mount it onto 2x4s, but not sure what shape or angles I need to create.  I guess the height will be up to me and I will just make a painted plexiglass cover/bezel for it to hide the empty space. I wonder if there is some tutorial or series of steps someone has documented about this?

Hey Tzak, what'd you end up doing with this? I also just picked up Sony Trinitron (KV-27FS13) and have just started to decase it and I'm wondering what's the best way to mount it in my UAII cabinet.  Be interested in any info/pics you have of your setup.

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #191 on: November 19, 2013, 12:37:50 am »
Meatball,

I didn't end up decasing, and I used a toshiba 27a50. I might decase in the future but not in a rush. My build thread is in my sig. 
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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #192 on: November 19, 2013, 12:47:45 am »
Does the tube have four metal mounting ears, one at each corner of the screen?  You should be able to rig a wooden bracket that those will bolt into.

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #193 on: November 19, 2013, 07:05:31 am »
Does the tube have four metal mounting ears, one at each corner of the screen?  You should be able to rig a wooden bracket that those will bolt into.

Yeah it does.  I've pulled the back cover off and can see those mounts, but haven't gotten much further.  I'll think something up, just wanted to see if anyone else had already come up with something.  I would have just left it in the case, but it's about 1" too wide.

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #194 on: March 21, 2014, 02:09:21 pm »
Another entry for archiving purposes.  I wrote up a concise summary of the options for yoko-tating in response to a PM.  I figured I might as well post it here:

Displaying a vertical game on a horizontal monitor is called yoko, or yoko-tate. Basically, you won't be able to do it on a 15kHz display with most games, at least not in native resolution.  The problem is that once you turn a vertical game on its side, the "width" becomes the "height." 

Let's say, for example, you're playing a vertical game that runs in 320x224p@60Hz.  Normally you would turn the monitor on its side, so the game looks right-side-up and the monitor only has to put out 224 active lines per frame like normal.  On the other hand, if you try and leave the monitor horizontal and "rotate" the resolution you now have to display 224px320p@60Hz.  Actually you'll want to make that 456x320p@60Hz so the 224 pixel active width gets squished in horizontally, adding black borders on the left and right side to keep things in proportion.  The increased horizontal resolution is no problem for any CRT.  The problem is the vertical resolution.  A 15kHz display can't display 320 progressive lines at 60Hz, it's just mathematically impossible.  320 lines per frame * 60 frames per second = 19200 lines per second.  That's 19.2kHz before the blanking lines have even been accounted for.

There are several workarounds.  The first is of course to just rotate the monitor itself as originally intended.  That's my choice, but not everyone has the desire, or even the space, to have two separate cabinets.

The next is to use a 24kHz/EGA-capable display.  By adjusting the number of total lines you should be able to get 456x320p@60Hz, or other similar resolutions needed for yoko games, to run around 24kHz.  400 lines per frame * 60 frames per second = 24kHz.  This can give you pixel perfect native resolution at the proper refresh rate.  Of course, it ought to be a multi-sync monitor so that you can still play your 15kHz horizontal games normally.

If you're using a 15kHz-only display, one solution is to reduce the vertical scan rate to allow more lines at 15kHz.  Allowing 320 lines would require lower than 49Hz.  Some arcade monitors and PAL-capable TV's will be able to do this, most NTSC TV's will not.  Even if you are able to do so, deviating from the native refresh rate causes all kinds of issues with tearing, game speed, and sound sync, and the workarounds for these issues add lag.  You'll also need a big adjustment to the display's vertical size to show 320 lines, which may cause conflicts with your settings for normal 224-256 line horizontal games.

The simplest and most common solution on a 15kHz-only display is to just run yoko games scaled in 480i or some interlaced resolution close to it.  It won't be as pretty, you'll lose scanlines and add blurriness and interlace feathering, but you'll be able to scale the game screen to whatever size and proportions you want without deviating from the proper refresh rate or causing conflicts with your horizontal games.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 02:30:55 pm by rCadeGaming »

the720k

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #195 on: March 24, 2014, 05:30:35 pm »
Hi rCadeGaming.  I spoke with you briefly in a thread a couple months ago, and have been very intrigued about the prospect of attaining native res on my KV-27FS17.  My budget is extremely limited right now, so I couldn't drop the cash on the Audio Authority transcoder (which I really want eventually.)  I did, however, pick up a factory remote to enter Service Mode as well as an RCA VCHD300 transcoder.  Spent about $15 total on both.

I'm aware of the issues that many others have run into with the RCA transcoder, but I have also noted that those who have tried it have had a mixed bag of results - doesn't seem to be the same sets of problems among other hobbyists.  There also seemed to be tipping points with the other users, where they just got frustrated and bought a different transcoder/called it a day.  While reading those threads, the IT guy in me just had to see all the other avenues exhausted before declaring that this transcoder cannot possibly be used acceptably in a MAME cabinet. 

I work as an IT director, and thus have access to a plethora of decommissioned computers that would otherwise be routed to File 13.  With some of these comes video cards, and I have a variety of cards at my disposal.  My perhaps overly optimistic idea is that I might be able to get a working combination with this extremely inexpensive transcoder, and in the process of making mine work, I could document this process.  Bear in mind, I am not pinning my hopes on this, but thought it could be of great benefit to both myself and possibly other members of the forum if I were to at least take a stab at it.  And if it doesn't work, I understand these transcoders make halfway decent HTPC interfaces, so I wouldn't be out all that much money.

I plan on getting started on this tonight.  Mind if I bounce a couple thoughts of you while I go through the process?  Thanks again for opening my eyes to this possibility.  Really hoping I can make this work on my shoe-string budget, and in the process, help other hobbyists.
My Machines:  Sega Top Skater | Vertical 25" JAMMA cabinet (Raiden Fighters II / 60-in-1 currently) |  Xevious (Restored)  |  3-Player MAME in a previously MA(i)MEd Beast Busters cab (In progress)  |  19" upright 2-player MAME cab w/light gun  |  Pac-Man Cocktail running MAME (built from scratch - no original harmed in the making) : http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=64599.0

rCadeGaming

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #196 on: March 24, 2014, 07:49:26 pm »
I did, however, pick up a factory remote to enter Service Mode as well as an RCA VCHD300 transcoder.  Spent about $15 total on both. ... I'm aware of the issues that many others have run into with the RCA transcoder ... the IT guy in me just had to see all the other avenues exhausted before declaring that this transcoder cannot possibly be used acceptably in a MAME cabinet.

Certainly, I appreciate the effort in confirming it one way or the other.  Glad you didn't have to pay much for it.

I have a variety of cards at my disposal.  My perhaps overly optimistic idea is that I might be able to get a working combination with this extremely inexpensive transcoder

Unfortunately, I don't think you're going to see any difference by trying different graphics cards.  As long as CRT_Emudriver is set up properly, the signal generated with a given modeline should theoretically be no different, regardless of what video card is used (assuming we're only considering cards that are compatible with CRT_Emudriver of course). 

I think you'd be better off to hold the video card as a constant and let the modelines be the variable.  I'd use a card with no minimum dotclock, so you have the widest possible range of timing values at your disposal, meaning a Radeon 9250, X300-X600, or HD4XXX series.  Just try adjusting timing values methodically in Arcade_OSD and see what you can learn from the response.

Have you read this thread?

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,131980.0.html

I think Wordsworth may be right in that that transcoder is meant for 31kHz and up.  One ray of hope is that it has yet to be tested with CRT_Emudriver.  Both Wordsworth and Notbillcosby were using Soft15kHz, which I would no longer consider worthwhile anyhow, given the advantages of CRT_Emudriver/GroovyMAME.

if it doesn't work, I understand these transcoders make halfway decent HTPC interfaces

I'd prefer HDMI for an HTPC, but I suppose component may be needed for some projectors.

I couldn't drop the cash on the Audio Authority transcoder (which I really want eventually.)

Do you mean the Crescendo TC-1600?  That's the high-end one I'm using.  The Audio Authority transcoder has yet to be confirmed one way or the other.  If you want to investigate it, it would be appreciated, but just know you'd be a guinea pig with that one too.

Really hoping I can make this work on my shoe-string budget

If you need a discount transcoder, look into the CVS-287.  See my post further up the page.  The advantages of the TC-1600 aren't really that useful if you're not using game consoles in addition to MAME.

I plan on getting started on this tonight.  Mind if I bounce a couple thoughts of you while I go through the process?  Thanks again for opening my eyes to this possibility.

I'll answer any questions I'm able to.  Thank you for experimenting.    :cheers:

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Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #197 on: March 24, 2014, 09:38:39 pm »
BTW I have tried the VCHD300 with CRT_Emudriver/GroovyMAME and I had the same issues. the720k if you can get that transcoder working at 15KHz then I am all for it as I still have mine and would love to get some use out of it but I have a gut feeling this is an issue that, barring some kind of hardware modification, the VCHD300 cannot overcome.

I'm on a tight budget as well and I had a thought the other day about trying to make a clone of the CVS-287. I can't find a schematic anywhere for it but looking at the PCB it doesn't seem that bad to reverse engineer. It would require a bit of work but if we put our heads together we might make them for $10 instead of buying them for $50. As I proofread that last sentence it seems almost silly to bother with it to save $40 but I'll throw it out there anyway.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2014, 11:23:46 pm by wordsworth »

the720k

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #198 on: March 25, 2014, 05:23:42 pm »
Hey guys.  I didn't have a chance to work on it much at all last night, as the weather was ridiculously cold, and I had a ton of household chores to get caught up on.  I did plug the transcoder into my MAME machine and wound up with nothing but scrambled video/three distorted representations of the screen, indicating I'm not outputting an acceptable scan rate.  I then remembered that I'm running Win7x64 on that cabinet, which is not exactly an ideal test environment.  With that in mind, I'm currently installing XP on a discarded computer from work before I leave for the day.  I did install an ATI Radeon 6750 card into the PC, though I have an X300 at home as well, amongst several other vintage varieties. 

Unfortunately, I don't think you're going to see any difference by trying different graphics cards.  As long as CRT_Emudriver is set up properly, the signal generated with a given modeline should theoretically be no different, regardless of what video card is used (assuming we're only considering cards that are compatible with CRT_Emudriver of course).

Yeah, you're probably right.  Will have a crack at it with CRT_Emudriver, though I see wordsworth has already tried.

Have you read this thread?
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,131980.0.html
 

Yes, a few times, and I'm happy to see that wordsworth has chimed in on this.  I will be using the current thread and his thread as references while I play around with this transcoder. 

Do you mean the Crescendo TC-1600?  That's the high-end one I'm using.  The Audio Authority transcoder has yet to be confirmed one way or the other.  If you want to investigate it, it would be appreciated, but just know you'd be a guinea pig with that one too.

Doh.  I actually meant the CVS-287.  The Crescendo would be fantastic someday if I ever get the basement cleared enough to set up a console section next to the arcade games.  Maybe one of these days.  I would like to give the Audio Authority one a shot one day as well.  I love squashing, or at least identifying bugs.  And the transcoders can always be repurposed into something else if they aren't suitable for MAME.  I am always coming up with different projects, and a tinkerer can't have too many tools.

I'll answer any questions I'm able to.  Thank you for experimenting.

Thank you for replying! 

BTW I have tried the VCHD300 with CRT_Emudriver/GroovyMAME and I had the same issues. the720k if you can get that transcoder working at 15KHz then I am all for it as I still have mine and would love to get some use out of it but I have a gut feeling this is an issue that, barring some kind of hardware modification, the VCHD300 cannot overcome.

I'm on a tight budget as well and I had a thought the other day about trying to make a clone of the CVS-287. I can't find a schematic anywhere for it but looking at the PCB it doesn't seem that bad to reverse engineer. It would require a bit of work but if we put our heads together we might make them for $10 instead of buying them for $50. As I proofread that last sentence it seems almost silly to bother with it to save $40 but I'll throw it out there anyway.

Well, that's strike two, I suppose.  I do wonder, though:  Have you decased the transcoder yet?   I see that in addition to the H-pos pot, there are four other pots surface-mounted to the board.  I'm going to go ahead and guess that they are RGB cutoffs plus a possible sync pot of some sort, but will check them out in further detail tonight if I can get out to the garage.

Cool idea on the CVS-287 clone, but you might be right - might be a lot of effort for little payout.  Still would be a cool project!



« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 07:19:13 pm by the720k »
My Machines:  Sega Top Skater | Vertical 25" JAMMA cabinet (Raiden Fighters II / 60-in-1 currently) |  Xevious (Restored)  |  3-Player MAME in a previously MA(i)MEd Beast Busters cab (In progress)  |  19" upright 2-player MAME cab w/light gun  |  Pac-Man Cocktail running MAME (built from scratch - no original harmed in the making) : http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=64599.0

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Re: Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
« Reply #199 on: March 25, 2014, 10:17:37 pm »
BTW I have tried the VCHD300 with CRT_Emudriver/GroovyMAME and I had the same issues.

Ah, sorry if you already told me.  I was just going off what I saw re-reading some things.

I'm on a tight budget as well and I had a thought the other day about trying to make a clone of the CVS-287. I can't find a schematic anywhere for it but looking at the PCB it doesn't seem that bad to reverse engineer. It would require a bit of work but if we put our heads together we might make them for $10 instead of buying them for $50.

You can make an RGB to YPbPr component transcoder using some very inexpensive components.  Start with a color matrix conversion circuit.  Try looking here, starting with page 7:

http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/application-note/an57fa.pdf

Then you'll need to combine your horizontal and vertical sync to composite and combine that with luminance.  After that, you can start adding things like color level adjustment.  Reversing engineering the CVS-287 isn't totally necessary, but it may give you some ideas to add to the mix.

I did install an ATI Radeon 6750 card into the PC, though I have an X300 at home as well, amongst several other vintage varieties.

A 6750 isn't supported by CRT_Emudriver at all.  Use the X300 or one of the others I mentioned.

Have you decased the transcoder yet?   I see that in addition to the H-pos pot, there are four other pots surface-mounted to the board.  I'm going to go ahead and guess that they are RGB cutoffs plus a possible sync pot of some sort, but will check them out in further detail tonight if I can get out to the garage.

You're probably right.  Probably RGB cut-offs or level adjustments.  Sync adjustments could include level, pulse width, or delay (h only).