Ice Cold Beer / Zeke's peak Q

[SavannahLion]

For those who own an ICB or ZP.

Is it an optical illusion or are the holes for the ball different sizes?

All the scoring holes seem to be the same size but the non-scoring holes seem to be two or three different sizes.

[mzerba]

they really are different sizes and of course are always in the way of the score holes

[SavannahLion]

Sorry I didn't get back to this sooner. It wasn't relevant until now.

Does anyone know what the other hole sizes are?

[lilshawn]

early model original or the late model remake...I think they are different.

[SavannahLion]

Are they pre and post ticket redemption machines? I've only been able to find non-redemption machine photos that I was able to reference. Any way to tell the difference?

[lilshawn]

The originals are made by Taito the later ones by ICE

The originals use a microswitch inside each hole to register the proper hole being obtained - tried and true easy to fix
The late model ICE machines use infrared optical sensors. - subject to failure. easy to fix if you know what to look for.

and yes the ICE models included a ticket dispenser.

I'm not able to compare them side by side, we got rid of our ICE - ICB machine last year, though we still have an original Taito ICB up in storage in the shop.

[SavannahLion]

Ah... I wasn't aware they changed manufacturers. I've been looking entirely at Taito machines. The pictures of the ICE machines kind of suck so I didn't give them anything more than a cursory glance thinking they were nothing more than the ticket redemption version of the same game.

I did a Google search for the ICE machines and I do see a big difference between the Taito and Ice playfields. I have read that the playfield is supposed to look like a pitcher of draft beer and the holes the bubbles. Probably why it was easy to simply change the art to ZP. With the ICE machines, the change is pretty dramatic and it looks a lot more like a pitcher of beer. It also looks impossible to win.

I've been laying out the Taito playfield and I don't see much reason to change that now.

[Nephasth]

I've been laying out the Taito playfield and I don't see much reason to change that now.

Emulation?

[SavannahLion]

I've been laying out the Taito playfield and I don't see much reason to change that now.

Emulation?

Imitation is more like it I guess.

I'm not really wanting to emulate ICB/ZP anyways. I remember a discussion involving Mount Neverest and the physics problems associated with the game. I'm sure using a pre-existing physics engine like Havok or similar might alleviate the problems or it might introduce more problems. I don't know.

Besides, I've never played ICB so I really only have the vaguest of ideas of the gameplay. It'd be like learning how to drive a motorcycle purely based on a persons description all while never coming into contact with a motorcycle. It doesn't work too well.

[SavannahLion]

The late model ICE machines use infrared optical sensors. - subject to failure. easy to fix if you know what to look for.

It just occurred to me. Why are the op sensors subject to failure? I would have thought the op sensors, with no moving parts, would be subject to a lower failure rate than the mechanical switches, which have moving parts. What am I missing with that?

[lilshawn]

Generally, Optics are subject to getting dirty... and thus cease to read properly.  They are not that hard to clean,
however, if they are buried in a machine, they tend to get ignored.

 However, in some cases, vibrations can crack soldier joints...  and or the optic just plain dies electronically.
Not sure if its due to voltage spikes... and or just that the beam sender / receivers just have a limited lifespan or hrs.

 Micros are actually very robust, many taking millions of activations before they fail.  Nothing to fail when not
being pressed either.

LED's are generally very poorly made now a days (not like they used to be) they still have a pretty high failure rate though. what actually happens is the infrared LEDs they use are driven pretty hard...something that could probably be eliminated by increasing the drive resistor size to bring down the mA...and they just plain old burn out.

it's a pain in the butt to diagnose if an opto is malfunctioning or not due to the fact you can't see it operating. usually your cellphone camera can shift the infrared far enough that you can see it.

[SavannahLion]

Interesting information. I haven't considered that as a failure. Maybe I should take another look at using switches instead. That's going to be a pain though since I've kind of did the design towards optics, and more importantly, their size.

In any case, can anyone give me the rest of the hole sizes that are used in the non-scoring holes on the Taito version? I have 5/8" hole as being the scoring hole size.

And as an added bonus, just what is the size of the playfield? I'm guessing, based on photos and using the size of the ball as a known reference, somewhere under 25" wide and how tall....?

[lilshawn]

Interesting.

 But, even if they were not driven too hard... According to 1 source I found,  said typical LEDs are rated for about 50,000hrs.   

(50000/24)/365 is still only 5.7 years. in the grand ole scope of things, that's f-all.

Interesting information. I haven't considered that as a failure. Maybe I should take another look at using switches instead. That's going to be a pain though since I've kind of did the design towards optics, and more importantly, their size.

In any case, can anyone give me the rest of the hole sizes that are used in the non-scoring holes on the Taito version? I have 5/8" hole as being the scoring hole size.

And as an added bonus, just what is the size of the playfield? I'm guessing, based on photos and using the size of the ball as a known reference, somewhere under 25" wide and how tall....?

I'll get some measurements on the original Taito ICB we have in the shop tomorrow if I get the chance.

[SavannahLion]

Interesting.

 But, even if they were not driven too hard... According to 1 source I found,  said typical LEDs are rated for about 50,000hrs.   

(50000/24)/365 is still only 5.7 years. in the grand ole scope of things, that's f-all.

You can cheat to some degree though. Don't run the LED's full on all the time. 1/2 duty cycle should extend their lives a bit. Your equipment isn't going to be on 24/7 so there's some savings there. My poor PC's fans died long before the LED's showed any signs of aging. To take it into context, the FLASH memory area of an Atmel microcontroller is only rated for twenty years.  At least an LED is easily replaceable.

Interesting information. I haven't considered that as a failure. Maybe I should take another look at using switches instead. That's going to be a pain though since I've kind of did the design towards optics, and more importantly, their size.

In any case, can anyone give me the rest of the hole sizes that are used in the non-scoring holes on the Taito version? I have 5/8" hole as being the scoring hole size.

And as an added bonus, just what is the size of the playfield? I'm guessing, based on photos and using the size of the ball as a known reference, somewhere under 25" wide and how tall....?

I'll get some measurements on the original Taito ICB we have in the shop tomorrow if I get the chance.

GREAT! THANKS! I'd appreciate that.

[lilshawn]

you can try a system similar to what stern does with their optos in the newer machines. they have 2 superbright LED's  and shine the first LED at the second which is connected to a mosfet.

it exploits a little known fact about LED chips, in that they are sensitive to their particular frequency of light they emit. by shining the LED at another of the same, the second LED generates a tiny voltage. enough to trip a MOSFET to turn on and act as a switch.

[ChadTower]

This game gets a lot of hype in the local collector's circuit.  Guys line up and call dibs and go nuts for it.  I just don't get that.  It's fun for a few times but people here are throwing a grand out there trying to get an ICB.


Here is a crappy pic I took the other day of an ancient game that is sort of like it.  It's actually more fun and only costs you a penny.  It would be a whole lot easier to build one, too.

[SavannahLion]

Yeah, I ordered a bunch of LEDs for that purpose. I'm not really using MOSFETS but I haven't had a chance to play with it since my order of servos came in first.

[lilshawn]

It's really buried but I managed to get a pic of it.

the playfield is 23 1/2 x 33 including the non visible areas. The visible play area is 16x24

the numbered shot holes are all 3/4"

the drain holes are all 1"

[Le Chuck]

This seems like the beginnings of a build thread.  I'm going to follow anyway and hope you start cutting wood soon. 

[SavannahLion]

It's really buried but I managed to get a pic of it.

the playfield is 23 1/2 x 33 including the non visible areas. The visible play area is 16x24

the numbered shot holes are all 3/4"

the drain holes are all 1"

You are a god amongst men. 

In the crop below, is the hole in the upper right corner a sample of the 1" hole?

The lower left three holes appear to be two other sizes. The smallest looks like the same as the shot hole, and the next looks like a size in between. Is that just a perception because of the angle you took the photo at?

[lilshawn]

yeah i measured a few of the closest i could reach (there is an ice machine and about 10 megatouches piled up in front of the ICB.)

I'll make some room and move some stuff around tomorrow if something doesn't pack it in and i have to leave town to fix it... I'll get a better picture more straight on too.