Another legal roms source (pay-per-download)

[jerryjanis]

I like the list of reasons for "why you should" buy games at Starroms:

Get your files from a safe source. Downloading files from unknown sources is a great way to contract a virus. StarROMs screens all of the ROMs we license for protection against viruses.

I would LOVE to see somebody hack an arcade romset to take advantage of a security hole in Mame to infect a computer with a virus.

(That's not a challenge).

[SirPoonga]

Sir,

Good question.  StarROMs keeps records of all licenses
issued.  If your license were ever challenged, StarROMs
can verify that the license was issued to you.

If you want to have something for your own records, I
suggest that you print a copy of your download
confirmation page, or else print out your download list.

I hope this addresses your concern.  Thank you for
visiting StarROMs.

StarROMs Customer Support

On Thu, 02 Oct 2003 02:02:44 -0500, "Sir Poonga" wrote:

>
> What's the Proof of Purchase to proof to someone I
> purchased these roms
> legally from you?
>
>

[jerryjanis]

There's another link: the "Conditions of use" page.  Here's a quote from that page:

If you believe that your work has been copied in a way that constitutes copyright infringement, please provide StarROMs' copyright agent the written information specified below. Please note that this procedure is exclusively for notifying StarROMs and its affiliates that your copyrighted material has been infringed.

That sounds awfully familiar from some illegal Rom sites (that I've, uhh...  researched) - as though until someone complains, they're not doing anything illegal.

[Chris]

Atari is currently a subsidiary of Infogrames.  http://www.atari.com

Should we just ask them?

[SirPoonga]

Someone on mame.net already did.

[MameMaster!]

This is one of the most interesting "legit" MAME sites I've ever seen.

I'm going to print out this thread and show it to my wife (she's in law school and is studying IP and Copyright ownership now).

...I'll let you know if she has any real legal information to share regarding this.

The MameMaster!  

[RandyT]

There's another link: the "Conditions of use" page.  Here's a quote from that page:

If you believe that your work has been copied in a way that constitutes copyright infringement, please provide StarROMs' copyright agent the written information specified below. Please note that this procedure is exclusively for notifying StarROMs and its affiliates that your copyrighted material has been infringed.

That sounds awfully familiar from some illegal Rom sites (that I've, uhh...  researched) - as though until someone complains, they're not doing anything illegal.

That may be nothing.  They offer MAME for download from their site and probably other emulators or frontends in the future.

I'll admit that it seems suspect, but it doesn't really prove anything.

RandyT

[Dave_K.]

You do all understand that list of Atari roms/games can already be legally bought for PC and Consoles?  Why do I sound like a broken record on this?  Well I've posted it many times before (do a search).  With these Arcade pack CDs costing (at most) $10, thats $1 a rom...cheaper than this stupid site.  Better yet, you get a real physical cdrom to prove your legal ownership of the license.  

As far as a I can see..just about all the roms listed I've seen on these commercially available classic CD packs....and yes they are real roms with commercial emulators (mostly from Digital Eclipse).

[Tiger-Heli]

There's another link: the "Conditions of use" page.  Here's a quote from that page:

If you believe that your work has been copied in a way that constitutes copyright infringement, please provide StarROMs' copyright agent the written information specified below. Please note that this procedure is exclusively for notifying StarROMs and its affiliates that your copyrighted material has been infringed.

That sounds awfully familiar from some illegal Rom sites (that I've, uhh...  researched) - as though until someone complains, they're not doing anything illegal.

Naw you can't really go by that.  That statement would be on there in case American Express complains about it.  Or for that matter, I originally thought that their marquee for centipede was a reduced quality one of the one I put at http://www.fraggersxtreme.com/museum/Images/m_Centipede.jpg
After looking close, I don't think it is, but if it was, I could possibly sue them over that, except the Conditions of Use statement protects them,  (and the fact that I got the image myself from www.caga.com, who doesn't own the original copyright on it either).

I don't think the site is legit, but that statement doesn't prove it isn't legit.

[Tiger-Heli]

Atari is currently a subsidiary of Infogrames.  http://www.atari.com

Should we just ask them?

As pointed out earlier and on MAME.net, I think whoever bought Midway own Atari Arcade.  Not Infogrames.  And whether this site is legit or not, I think I would rather let sleeping dogs lie than bother the actual copyright holders.  They might look at "other" sites as well, or even MAME itself.

[tmasman]

If you go to Arati.com, the contact link sends you to infogrames.com corporate site... So unless infogrames sold Atari recently (& haven't had time to change their site) I'd say Atari is probably owned by InfoGrames...

Anyhow, Here's a clip of the actual license you get with the games...

End-user Software License

 LICENSE.  The Software accompanying this
 License is licensed  to you by StarROMs,
 Inc  (StarROMs),  on  behalf  of  Atari,
 Inc.  (Atari).

Sounds like they could get in BIG trouble if they didn't actually have permission from Atari... I guess when the guy @ mame.net hears back from Atari's contact (I'm assuming now InfoGrames) this site will either be shut down, or all this chatter will be for not (It'll be legit).

We'll see.

[Lilwolf]

They know about mame.... No need on leaking lEEt info to midway.  They know about it and it has built up a new market for them.  Hopefully if this isn't a real company, that enought people will ask midway that they might consider selling them themselfs... (wow, 500 people asked if company A is selling legal roms that we own... We put a lawsuit on the company A... but they did have a great idea... lets email them all back with our offer for a legal rom license)

If this IS a legit company I hope the best... and will definately buy some roms from them... I'm not sure about all.

[SirPoonga]

Tider-Heli, it's not that.  It's we want peace of mind that we are actually getting legal roms.  If I pay for it, it better be legal!

[Tiger-Heli]

Tider-Heli, it's not that.  It's we want peace of mind that we are actually getting legal roms.  If I pay for it, it better be legal!

Well, I don't plan to pay for them, download from Starroms, or worry much about the legality of the ROMS I already have.

But I think something like the Digital Leisure packs or Hanaho's Capcom Roms CD, where the company can say "Here is the arrangement for us to offer these.", sounds a lot more legit than "here's a ROM on behalf of Atari".

[SirPoonga]

Exactly the point.  If I am going to pay for them show me some proof of legality and show me proof of purchase.

Actually, I'd rather own these games if possible.  Alot of good ones, many I play regularly.  Man I play in collections.  I have Atari's Greatist hits and M$ Arcade classics.

[tmasman]

I went ahead & wrote the following email to the corporate contact listed for Atari...

If you belive there is someone better suited to answer my question below, I would appreciate it if you would forward this on to the appropriate contact.

I recently came across a site (http://www.starroms.com/index.php) which offers to sell the Game ROMs from many Arari Arcade titles. I their license they state the following:

"The Software accompanying this License is licensed to you by StarROMs, Inc (StarROMs), on behalf of Atari, Inc. (Atari)..."

I was mainly curious if this is true.  I'm very interested in legally owning a handful of some of these titles for my own personal (in home) use, but I do not want to encourage thieves (if this was not a sanctioned site).

I would appreciate any information you may have on the sale of Arari Arcade Game Roms, including whether or not this site is legitimatly selling them.

Thank you very much for your time.

Thomas Smith
Arlington, TX

I'll let you know if & when I hear back from them...

[SirPoonga]

Oh great, a type.  Arari games

[Magnet_Eye]

On the subject of proving you own the license. I don't see the problem. It's similar to buying any software online. You don't get any piece of paper or COA, so why would you expect one here?

If I download a copy of Macromedia Dreamweaver from their site, and pay with CC, and the cops come to my house one day and see it on my PC, what do I have to show them proof of ownership? My CC bill? An email saying I bought it? If this is enough proof, you surely have these items when purchasing from StarRoms as well, right?  

Just my 2 pence, since a lot of you posted about wanting "proof" you bought or own it. Like anyone is coming to get you or accuse you of stealing 10 antique Atari Roms!  

Just keep your MAME machines hidden in the basement, and all will be well. Maybe we should start basement MAME arcades! Like the speakeasys of the old days! Down with Prohibition!
 

[SirPoonga]

You do have proof of purchase, your creditcard statement.  For the first 15 free credits on this site you don't!

Also, software I buy online sends me an email receipt I can print out.  Buy.com does that.  My Palm Pilot software did that.

[SirPoonga]

Sir,

We considered an email receipt for each game
purchase, but initial feedback seemed to
indicate that most people would rather not
receive that many emails from us. In
addition, a text-based email would be easy
to duplicate/modify and difficult to
validate as an official document.

We are considering better ways to digitally
distribute this documentation. In the meantime,
we would be happy to mail you a signed letter
documenting the titles you have licensed
through StarROMs.

Thanks again.

StarROMs Customer Support


On Thu, 02 Oct 2003 11:56:39 -0500, "Sir Poonga" wrote:

>
> What happens if your company goes under for some
> reason?  You relaly should
> email a receipt to the customer like buy.com does.
>

[tmasman]

I got a reply from Atari regarding this site...
It is legit!!!

From:   "Bushkin, Nancy" <nancy.bushkin@atari.com>
To:   "'tmasman@yahoo.com'" <tmasman@yahoo.com>
Subject:   RE: Quick question regarding Atari games
Date:   Thu, 2 Oct 2003 14:45:29 -0400
   

Thomas, thank you for your email.  Yes, this site is legitimate and we are
working with them so by all means, check it out and buy as much of the
content as you'd like!

Enjoy!

So there you have it.
The final word from Atari's Corporate office.

[JackTucky]

 

I wonder if they hijacked atari.com and are replying to the emails!

Wow, I guess I'll sign up too.

[jerryjanis]

Wow.  I can't believe it.  For a few dollars I can legally MAME 720.  I really can't believe it.

Whatever you guys say, this IS different from purchasing emulated arcade collections, because I can legally play the software in MAME, without any legal unease.

[SirPoonga]

Right, many collections use their own romset and only their emulator.

BTW, what if mame starts using a different romset?  I know asteroids descrete is an ongoing project.  Whatif someone gets a better dump of these roms?  I wonder how starroms will handle that.

[Dave_K.]

Wow.  I can't believe it.  For a few dollars I can legally MAME 720.  I really can't believe it.

Whatever you guys say, this IS different from purchasing emulated arcade collections, because I can legally play the software in MAME, without any legal unease.

The license for the atari packs from Digital Eclipse say for home use only on a single pc running a microsoft operating system.  No mention of using their emulator specifically.

[mod]Sirp, I don't think a license to own a rom is specific to a particular version of that rom.  So any rom set should be fine.  You are paying a license to play the game/rom. [/mod]

[hyiu]

they're legit.... that's good news....

that means even me can own some legit roms !!!... haa ahaa haa....  

well... to them... I guess.... they figured... what's the difference... if they sell those re-pro joystick packages... there're still manufacture costs....
but selling licenses... there's basically no costs to them !!!...

and I believe these licenses they sell ... we can't resell or make profit... (so ... we can't make an arcade and take quarters...)

and even if they don't sell... we'll be playing them anyway....
(and to chase after us individually is not cost efficient....)
so... why not just make some $$ out of the old games that doesn't make any $$ anymore ??....

also... they just give it to this company.... so ... they just charge whatever per download.... to them.... they don't even need more ppl.....

hmmm.... sounds like a pretty cool idea....

maybe we should go to capcom and ask them if they want to sell any rom license for any old games.....

[Xiaou2]

 Ok.. so they are Legit.  So what.   They are still overcharging for the roms... and also, and more importantly...

 If Atari is sold, goes under... or changes thier minds about the situation... and then somehow you lose proof or purchase... what will happen?

 Do you REALLY have a valid legal ownership for life?... and if so... how do you proove that?  

 How will they distinguish a rom criminal... from a legit holder?

 I think a Legal document simular to a cars Title needs to be sent to the purchaser if this is to be fully trustworthy.

 Also... what happens when mame changes the romsets?  Can you re-download the update from them?!!

 (Else there will still always need to be an underground)

   

[MameMaster!]

Wow....I wonder if this will open the flood gates for others to finally follow suit?

This is one of the best things that I my humble opinion could happen to MAME in the long run.

The alternative is someday getting letters from the gaming companies with a lawsuit.  

The MameMaster!

[SirPoonga]

 Ok.. so they are Legit.  So what.   They are still overcharging for the roms... and also, and more importantly...

 If Atari is sold, goes under... or changes thier minds about the situation... and then somehow you lose proof or purchase... what will happen?

 Do you REALLY have a valid legal ownership for life?... and if so... how do you proove that?  

 How will they distinguish a rom criminal... from a legit holder?

 I think a Legal document simular to a cars Title needs to be sent to the purchaser if this is to be fully trustworthy.

 Also... what happens when mame changes the romsets?  Can you re-download the update from them?!!

 (Else there will still always need to be an underground)

 

email them, they are good at answering.

Over priced?  How do you know that?   Have you purchased roms before?  Muvh cheaper than buying the pcb and making the roms yourself.

[SirPoonga]

FYI, 1002 credits needed to purchase was is currently offered.

[RandyT]

Over priced?  How do you know that?   Have you purchased roms before?  Muvh cheaper than buying the pcb and making the roms yourself.

I think this is a great thing.

But I also think it's too expensive.  The comparison you made is kind of "apples to oranges", as these are strictly for personal use.  If you owned the actual boards and ROMS that came on them, you could probably build a cabinet around them and charge others to play.  Not so with these.

So comparing them to the Atari Hits compilation would be more appropriate (also for personal use) except with that you also get a nice CD, Box, Interviews, Extras, etc....  And even with all of the extras, you can pick it up for $10 or less.

It'd be nice if they dropped the ala carte stuff and offered a blanket license for all the Atari games for $39.95 or something equally as reasonable. Because if it's not affordable, many won't see a reason to buy them.

The music industry is finally starting to near the mark with the 79 to 99 cent per download music.  But if that same song cost $2.50, it would be back to the underground.

RandyT

[SirPoonga]

So comparing them to the Atari Hits compilation would be more appropriate (also for personal use) except with that you also get a nice CD, Box, Interviews, Extras, etc....  And even with all of the extras, you can pick it up for $10 or less.

Still apple to oranges.  The only thing you could compare to is Hanaho's Capcom Classics.

The Atari Hits is their own thing, their own rom sets and emulator.  You can't choose the emulator.

My original point was meant to show there really isn't anything to compare too.

[Nailz]

I have to agree with RandyT and Xiaou2, they are asking too much....

People already have these games, why would they pay $6 for Asteroids (which is 25 years old) when games that are only a year old end up in the under $10 bin at most software stores?  Like RandyT said, if they offered a cd with all the roms on it, for $20-30 it would be a great deal.  I don't really care about the interviews, and the box and all that, i'd just like to have the legal set of roms.

$250.50 is WAAAAAY too much to pay for the entire set they are offering.

[SirPoonga]

It's actually more like $134 for all the roms.

Yeah, it's quite abit but it will be hard to get them any cheaper.  Especially since this isn;t something companies do that often.

[CitznFish]

When is all said and done I'm keeping all my ROMS and not paying a dime to this company or any other.  The games got all my money when i was younger...not this time..not...this....time.


(oh, and i have 0 guilt and 0 fear of da popo hunting me down, so there!)

[jerryjanis]

I'm about to cry with joy.  You're now looking at the proud legitimate Mamer of 720, Rampart, Shuuz, Warlords, Marble Madness, Tempest, Quantum, Major Havok, Paperboy, I Robot, Gauntlet, Gauntlet II, Super Sprint, Blasteroids, Centipede, Atari Soccer, and many others.

Each one of these games deserves exclaimation points and giant text and bright colors with animations.

It's hard to say what a fair price for these games is.  I spent an average of $2.06 per game.  When I pick any specific game (Marble Madness, for example) and ask if it's worth $2.06, I think that you gotta be ashamed of yourselves for suggesting that they are overcharging!    When Mame can play 3,000 games, that sure would add up quickly, but now that I quit smoking cigarettes, this would be a perfect place to dump that cash a little bit at a time until I have them all.

This is for all the times that my 10-year-old self spent $35 or more on the biggest p.o.s. Commodore 64 versions of arcade games (Ikari Warriors stands out in my mind) duped by the arcade screenshots on the back of the box with the fine print disclaimer, "arcade pictures shown, actual game may vary."

These are not MP3's.  Mp3's are like the Commodore 64 versions of the songs because the quality is reduced.  What I'm buying is 100% pure arcade software, which in my opinion is typically of a standard of quality way beyond anything that was ever intended for home use no matter how old it is.  It's the equivilent of owning an original brand-new movie reel for theatre use.  This is far better than some crappy DVD.

Don't get me wrong - I don't give a rat's cash what anybody else chooses to do.  It makes sense to get them for free if you can.  Why not?  I just can't personally justify it.  And yes, I will continue to steal the games that are not available, so I will remain just as much of a thief as ever.  I can't help it because Mame is just too darned cool to resist.

[DaveMMR]

Now here's a sweet idea: if Starroms.com could get Atari to trust them with ROMs of games that didn't get released (*cough* Marble Madness II *cough*) so that games that never got a chance will finally be able to be enjoyed, that'd be really great.   They've already got the Atari Classics prototype (though I know that was widely available before).

But I am glad it's legit -- I do encourage all MAMErs to support the legal sale of ROMs so maybe other companies will wise up and start embracing new technology (something the RIAA should have done a long time ago).

However, I still think their pricing and purchasing system is quite ludicrious.  Man, just tell me how much it is so I can pay it.   It seems way too easy to end up with leftover credits (there's a 40 credit minimum but if I only want one game that means I'm being overcharged for the ONE game).  They need to re-think their system if they're going to remain in business.

[OSCAR]

Well, now that it has been stated by both Starroms & the copyright holder that the system is legit, I guess my next question is who set the prices?  I would imagine the copyright holder had some input...

Since the game manufacturers have obviously been cognizant of emulation and rom distribution, and now that an easy & legal avenue of obtaining roms is available to anyone with an internet connection, does this mean that the copyright holder(s) may start policing rom possession/distribution more actively?  MAME has always been, at best, a real gray area.  Some op's, collectors, and repair services do use MAME for the intended purposes of saving the game rom info so replacements can be burned.

So what if other game copyright holders also think this is a fantastic idea to wring a few more $$ out of their old games, but they feel their games are worth more than a few dollars each?  I guess what I'm saying is when you invite the copyright holders to the table and ask permission to "legally" distribute their roms, you may not like their answer (especially if they want more than a buck or two for them).

Open a road for legal distribution, and enforcement may increase as well.  Just a thought, I could very well be wrong here.

Note that I do not condone piracy, but it happens and I'm sure almost everyone has taken part at some time or another...

[CitznFish]

piracy? nah..I don't like boats very much.

[saint]

$134 and I purchased the whole set just to support the concept... heck I *own* a real stunrunner and still bought the rom!