Another legal roms source (pay-per-download)

[SpamMe]

Don't know if this has been mentioned before, but I just noticed it on slashdot.
http://www.starroms.com/index.php
They've got about 60 roms, and they cost $2-$6 each.
Interesting stuff, at any rate.

[CitznFish]

i guess that ups the count of ROMS you can legally own..

[nelsonej]

Is this the beginning of something for classic gamers, or is Atari just trying to make some money?  

I say Atari because every game on StarRoms is an Atari game.

[rampy]

just saw that on slashdot

sure is interesting....  Game list below

Code: [Select]


You are not signed in. Available credits = 0


Browse All Available Titles

Game Title Manufacturer Year Price Purchase
720 Degrees Atari Games 1986 16 credits DOWNLOAD!
A.P.B. Atari 1987 16 credits DOWNLOAD!
Arcade Classics Atari Games 1992 24 credits DOWNLOAD!
Asteroids Atari 1979 24 credits DOWNLOAD!
Asteroids Deluxe Atari 1980 24 credits DOWNLOAD!
Atari Baseball Atari 1979 8 credits DOWNLOAD!
Atari Football Atari 1979 8 credits DOWNLOAD!
Atari Soccer Atari 1979 8 credits DOWNLOAD!
Avalanche Atari 1978 10 credits DOWNLOAD!
Batman Atari Games 1990 20 credits DOWNLOAD!
Battlezone Atari 1980 16 credits DOWNLOAD!
Beat Head Atari Games 1993 16 credits DOWNLOAD!
Black Widow Atari 1982 14 credits DOWNLOAD!
Blasteroids Atari Games 1987 22 credits DOWNLOAD!
Centipede Atari 1980 24 credits DOWNLOAD!
Championship Sprint Atari Games 1986 16 credits DOWNLOAD!
Cloak & Dagger Atari 1983 14 credits DOWNLOAD!
Cloud 9 Atari 1983 14 credits DOWNLOAD!
Crystal Castles Atari 1983 16 credits DOWNLOAD!
Cyberball Atari Games 1988 16 credits DOWNLOAD!
Escape From The Planet Of The Robot Monsters Atari 1989 18 credits DOWNLOAD!
Gauntlet Atari 1985 22 credits DOWNLOAD!
Gauntlet II Atari 1986 22 credits DOWNLOAD!
Gravitar Atari 1982 16 credits DOWNLOAD!
I, Robot Atari 1983 12 credits DOWNLOAD!
Klax Atari 1989 18 credits DOWNLOAD!
Liberator Atari 1982 16 credits DOWNLOAD!
Lunar Lander Atari 1979 12 credits DOWNLOAD!
Major Havoc Atari 1983 20 credits DOWNLOAD!
Marble Madness Atari Games 1984 16 credits DOWNLOAD!
Millipede Atari 1982 24 credits DOWNLOAD!
Missile Command Atari 1980 24 credits DOWNLOAD!
Monte Carlo Atari 1980 16 credits DOWNLOAD!
Off The Wall (1991) Atari Games 1991 18 credits DOWNLOAD!
Paperboy Atari Games 1984 16 credits DOWNLOAD!
Peter Packrat Atari 1985 16 credits DOWNLOAD!
Quantum Atari 1982 16 credits DOWNLOAD!
Qwak Atari 1982 12 credits DOWNLOAD!
Rampart Atari 1990 20 credits DOWNLOAD!
Red Baron Atari 1980 12 credits DOWNLOAD!
Relief Pitcher Atari 1992 20 credits DOWNLOAD!
Road Blasters Atari 1987 20 credits DOWNLOAD!
Road Riot's Revenge Atari Games 1993 16 credits DOWNLOAD!
Road Runner Atari Games 1985 14 credits DOWNLOAD!
S.T.U.N. Runner Atari Games 1989 16 credits DOWNLOAD!
Shuuz Atari 1990 18 credits DOWNLOAD!
Skull & Crossbones Atari Games 1989 16 credits DOWNLOAD!
Space Duel Atari 1982 16 credits DOWNLOAD!
Sparkz Atari Games 1992 16 credits DOWNLOAD!
Super Breakout Atari 1978 12 credits DOWNLOAD!
Super Sprint Atari Games 1986 16 credits DOWNLOAD!
Tempest Atari 1980 22 credits DOWNLOAD!
Tetris Atari Games 1988 24 credits DOWNLOAD!
ThunderJaws Atari Games 1990 20 credits DOWNLOAD!
Toobin' Atari Games 1988 18 credits DOWNLOAD!
Vindicators Atari 1988 16 credits DOWNLOAD!
Vindicators Part II Atari 1988 16 credits DOWNLOAD!
Warlords Atari 1980 16 credits DOWNLOAD!
Xybots Atari Games 1987 18 credits DOWNLOAD!


[rampy]

Is this the beginning of something for classic gamers, or is Atari just trying to make some money?  

I say Atari because every game on StarRoms is an Atari game.

Probably the former.  I imagine Atari roms are cheaper/easier to get (And also popular) because of the recent bankruptcy and selling off Atari arcade stuff/rights.... know what I mean vern?

It's just my theory anyways.
rampy

[CitznFish]

Is this the beginning of something for classic gamers, or is Atari just trying to make some money?  

I say Atari because every game on StarRoms is an Atari game.

Probably the former.  I imagine Atari roms are cheaper/easier to get (And also popular) because of the recent bankruptcy and selling off Atari arcade stuff/rights.... know what I mean vern?

It's just my theory anyways.
rampy

Love your bastardization of that sig....

[Safron]

Looks pretty good.
I expect that to be right popular with our crowd.
I for one, do not mind supporting the legal right to finally own some of these classics.

[Xiaou2]

 I wouldnt mind paying for some of my fav clasics... BUT...
 I think theres a big problem here.

  They say they want to preserve the classics... but in order to assure that,  they would have to buy the game rights.  They are not doing that.  Rather.. they are just getting permission to share profits for the downloads.

  If the owners of the games (currently Midway), decides that they do not want to do this anymore... then they will the site will dissapear... (and after some gungho illigal rom suits... so will classics finally die..?!)  

 Also... how do you proove that you OWN the rights to the game? (esp if you lose your reciepts)   And how THEY proove that you own that game rom - for 'LIFE'?  They do not gaurentee that... They do not give any legal specs on the site!

 I think its a scam to make money.  Not really to preserve classics.  I also thing the prices are a bit steep.  I think I saw "Avalanch", a Black and white game for $2.50.   No offense to those who love that game... but Geez... that seems a bit steep for a not so advanced, Nor superior playable game.

 Since I might have the original arcade game to begin with... Can i download the game for free?  What if I lose the game in a harddrive crash?   Can I re-download?  Most likely not unless I want to pay full price again.

  I think a bunch of people should get together to actually purchase the Legal Rights to the actual games... and make them legally distributable till the end of time.

 

[SpamMe]

Well, the other thing, I suppose, is how many you buy. At their minimum order quantity, a "credit" is $.25 (40 for $10) If you spend $99, tho, you get 800 credits ($0.124/ea). ::shrug:: Good to see an inexpensive way to purchase just a couple of specific games, I think.

[OSCAR]

 I wouldnt mind paying for some of my fav clasics... BUT...
 I think theres a big problem here.

  They say they want to preserve the classics... but in order to assure that,  they would have to buy the game rights.  They are not doing that.  Rather.. they are just getting permission to share profits for the downloads.

  If the owners of the games (currently Midway), decides that they do not want to do this anymore... then they will the site will dissapear... (and after some gungho illigal rom suits... so will classics finally die..?!)  

 Also... how do you proove that you OWN the rights to the game? (esp if you lose your reciepts)   And how THEY proove that you own that game rom - for 'LIFE'?  They do not gaurentee that... They do not give any legal specs on the site!

 I think its a scam to make money.  Not really to preserve classics.  I also thing the prices are a bit steep.  I think I saw "Avalanch", a Black and white game for $2.50.   No offense to those who love that game... but Geez... that seems a bit steep for a not so advanced, Nor superior playable game.

 Since I might have the original arcade game to begin with... Can i download the game for free?  What if I lose the game in a harddrive crash?   Can I re-download?  Most likely not unless I want to pay full price again.

  I think a bunch of people should get together to actually purchase the Legal Rights to the actual games... and make them legally distributable till the end of time.

I certainly agree with this.  I believe you would have a hard time proving that you "own" the rights to these roms because you paid a website to download them.  Now if you received something in writing from the copyright holder, or that the copyright holder condones this action, that you have a right to own these roms after you pay this company for them, that is a different story.  There is an email address on the website for copyright/legal info, it would be worthwhile to inquire about what legal rights to the roms you really have (in writing) before purchasing.  It never hurts to be cautious because there are lots of scammers out there.  But hopefully this is a legit operation because the only other way to accomplish this is to have a collection of pcbs laying in storage or something like the HanaHo CD.

[Radical]

If anyone gets more information on the legal aspects please let us know.   I'm 100% willing to support these types of things but I'm unsure of what exactly I'm purchasing.

[JackTucky]

I am wondering too about the site.  Where is the contract that they can sell them?

If it was Amazon or Target or some other major retailer,I'd go for it. But who are these guys?

Send me the money, I'll send you the Rom "legally" too.  

If they ever offer a certificate of authenticity, run for the hills.  Those are the biggest scam on ebay.

Art

[DaveMMR]

Here's something to think about:

Midway is releasing a collection of 20 games in Nov. (PS2/GC/Xbox) for the Suggested Retail Price of $20.  That price also factors in packaging, distribution, etc.  That's $1 a game!

Starroms.com meanwhile is charging $2 to $6 for some games, that honestly, are not always worth that much.  And that's without that convienient carrying case known as a CD-ROM.  

I know it's Apples to Oranges but it's something to think about.

I know Xiaou said this kinda but: I don't think allowing people to pay you for copyrighted material that you'll 'give back' to the owners is how it works.   You're supposed to purchase the licensing rights first, then sell.   I may be wrong but that's what it sounds like they are doing.  If they said "we purchased the rights..." then okay fine.

Besides, I like to think of people as honest but... they're not going to stay in business (if they're in fact legit) unless they offer better incentives to download their ROMs for a price.  When someone is looking for a game and they have the option to get the same thing either for free or for $6, guess what they're going to choose...

Though I'm all for paying a fair price to the right party for legal ROMs, I'm saving my money for the Midway collection for now.

[jerryjanis]

I really want to believe.  Between that collection and the Capcom collection, half of the games that I want to play are available legally.

(Wull, besides the fact that I want to play ALL of them.)

[Kilgore]

FYI, here is the link to the licensing agreement:

http://www.starroms.com/games/0001/license.php

It doesn't look overly restrictive.  Personal use only, do not lease, sell or rent.  The only thing that looks like it may really be restricted is the ability to resell the ROM (or is that a license tranfer fee.)

What worries me is the same thing that worries me with pay to download music. How do I prove I purchased it?  I usually don't worry about this with software, because its life span isn't really that long, but for music and classic arcade ROMs I plan to add them to my collection permanently and would like proof of ownership (or licenseing if you will).

Of course I will have copies of classic arcade ROMs regardless if they are paid for or not.  If ROMs are outlawed then only outlaws will have ROMs.  Next thing you know I will be walking damn the street packing my 9mm and giving free crack samples when your kids by ROMs from me.  

As I have said before, I am willing and able to support the retail sales of game ROMs and feel that it benefits the emulation scene when ROMs are legally available for purchase.  For the time being I will wait and watch, as the game ROMs I am most interested in I have legally available to me already in cabinet, PCB, and/or Atari Arcade Hits form.  If I find myself playing a game that is available from this site and I am not making fair use of an existing license then I will run out and purchase one immediately.

[SirPoonga]

Well, signing up to this service you get 15 free credits.  I will be getting lunar lander.  I wish it was 16, I'd get 720

BTW, if I added correctly it takes 1030 credits to buy it all.  Will report how it went...

[SirPoonga]

First, here's the EULA

[paigeoliver]

When you downloaded did the file come with any other files? Or just the ROM archive and the eula?

[SirPoonga]

You get 48 hours to download the file after purchase.
I haven't received a receipt or anything yet.  I'm not sure if after 48 hours the file is taken off the download list or just not linked and kept there as proof of download.  

[SirPoonga]

When you downloaded did the file come with any other files? Or just the ROM archive and the eula?

Just the zip file with roms in it.

[paigeoliver]

Yeah, I just signed up and got Red Baron.

You can actually get ALL the games under 16 credits free, since you can just sign up over and over again.

BUT, the files come with NOTHING stating their legitimacy. As far as I am concerned I already bought all of them.

Emails addresses come and go. That company will be out of business in a few months, and for the rest of eternity everyone will claim they bought their Atari roms there legally.

[SirPoonga]

Yeah, there are 13 games that are 15 credits or less.  You could sign up a couple of times and legally own those roms.  The really good games like Toobin' you can't get, dang!

Unless the game stays in your download list there is no proof of purchase I see?

[paigeoliver]

I just verified that you can sign up more than once.

So the following roms are all free now, since you can sign up multiple times.

Atari Baseball
Atari Football
Atari Soccer
Avalanche
Black Widow
Cloak & Dagger
Cloud 9
Lunar Lander
Qwak
Red Baron
Super Breakout

[paigeoliver]

Yeah, there are 13 games that are 15 credits or less.  You could sign up a couple of times and legally own those roms.  The really good games like Toobin' you can't get, dang!

Unless the game stays in your download list there is no proof of purchase I see?

The company will be gone in a few months anyway. Once they are gone "THE MAN" will never have any way to prove who bought what.

[SirPoonga]

The EULA doesn't say anything about signing multiple times, does it?  I didn't read completely through it yet.

[paigeoliver]

No, neither the EULA nor anything else on the site says that you can't sign up more than once.

I still believe it is a scam myself. They have FAR too much information about their legal department. Fact is, if they had properly licensed these games, then they wouldn't even NEED to have even HALF of the text on http://www.starroms.com/about/condofuse.php

By the way, the conditions of use page lists some conditions that are not legal. Like for instance, no one on the entire internet is allowed to put the word "StarRoms" in a meta tag now. Nor can we portray StarRoms in a negative light and then link to their page.

[SirPoonga]

I'm oging to read the EULA carefully.  This does sound fishy.  However we should know in a few days or so what this is about.  A thread was started on mame.net.  Someone mentioned it seems like a coincidence this site started right after mame.dk went down....

[Magnet_Eye]

Well, this is a "new" thing. Maybe they are going to pave the way for a service like this. Imagine if all gaming companies offered their "extinct" roms for a small purchase price. Makes sense. They could make a few bucks this way.

Oh, BTW, you forgot to add ROAD RUNNER to the under 16 credits list! It's just 14 credits!

                                                             

[u_rebelscum]

What's really getting me is (unless infogames bought the rights from midway) arcade games by "Atari" are now owned by Infogames, and those by "Atari Games" are owned by Midway, IIRC. Yet both are on the list.  Makes me very suspicious.

[Safron]

Yeah, the more we look, the stranger it sounds.
I have an email out to them asking very specific legal questions about the licenses and owning the rights to distribute along with proof of ownership.
If they respond, I will post it.

[tbombaci]

Seems very fishy. You are not actually 'buying' ROMS with legal currency. Much like the Pachinko Parlors in Japan. You win useless trinkets and trade the trinkets for Yen in some seedy shack in a nearby alleyway.

You are buying their "credits" and trading for ROMS.

-Tom

[rampy]

You guys are forgetting one important thing... I saw it on Slashdot, It *must* be true  

rampy

PS I'm hopeful that it's legit... I'd be wary too, as it's kinda like buying the brooklyn bridge... but this is kinda what we've  been hoping for (albeit slightly higher priced IMHO) in legitimate purchasable ROM images... *shrug*  I guess the key word is legititmate (even if I misspeell it)

[Brax]

I just verified that you can sign up more than once.

So the following roms are all free now, since you can sign up multiple times.

Atari Baseball
Atari Football
Atari Soccer
Avalanche
Black Widow
Cloak & Dagger
Cloud 9
Lunar Lander
Qwak
Red Baron
Super Breakout

Nice to see you've already figured out how to exploit the system and get "free" ROMs.

Not one of you would stop using any of these ROM's if you couldn't obtain a licence, I don't quite understand the excitement. Although it looks like the excitement may be about exploiting a loophole to make your formerly illegal ROM's, legal. ...for free if you can. Odd.

[Lilwolf]

Yeah, without a peace of paper, you might as well download them from the newsgroups... Nobody could ever say / prove any more.

I would like to see if they will send a CD containing all 60 for a set price, and with the license at the same time.  Then this would be a very very useful tool for people selling arcade machines.

Sell the machine and a $bla gift certificate for starroms for the cd to be sent to them.  Boom - legal non-profit arcade machine with 60 games on it!

VERY VERY cool in my opinion... if it's not some kids who setup a CC -> paypal scam account... so they can buy more ps2 games from ebay

[Safron]

Here is their email reply to me (caveat emptor):

I'm not a lawyer, but let me try to address your
questions to the best of my ability.

Q> Greetings. I am highly interested in legally owning a few ROMS. However, I have a few questions. If I purchase a ROM from you, does that legally entitle me to own a copy?

A>Yes.

Q> If I own the ROM (through a purchase from you), can I modify the ROM as I see fit, or is this a breach of the license?

A>I don't think this is allowed under the end-user-license.

Q> If your company goes under, do I still own it, or does the license expire if you do?

A>Your license would be unaffected. It is still valid.

Q> How can I prove (in a court of law) if necessary that I actually purchased and legally own the ROM I purchased from you?

A>Good question. StarROMs keeps records of all licenses issued. If your license were ever challenged, StarROMs can verify that the license was issued to you.
If you want to have something for your own records, I suggest that you print a copy of your download confirmation page, or else print out your download list.

Q> Forgive me for being a little skeptical, but we have seen many "legal ROM" sites come and go. I am all for purchasing these for legal use, but I must make sure there is actually a legal purchase (as in, you have the right to sell these Atari ROMs from the copyright holder) in case I am challenged in a court. What assurances can you make, other than a page written on a website?

A>As long as you provide accurate personal contact information when you buy from StarROMs, your purchase is 100% legal. Keep in mind, however, that the license we issue is for non-commercial personal entertainment purposes only, and is non-transferable. You are strictly forbidden from actively or passively (put on the 'net) distributing the ROMs to others. If this were to take place, your license would become void.

I hope I've been able to answer your questions to your
satisfaction. Thank you for visiting StarROMs.

StarROMs Customer Service,
William

[Tiger-Heli]

If they ever offer a certificate of authenticity, run for the hills.  Those are the biggest scam on ebay.

Off-Topic, what do you mean?  I was considering buying a COA for Windows XP from a software company (linked from pricewatch).  Are those not legit either?

On-Topic:  I agree with OSCAR and XIAOU2, I see nothing that makes me think this is legit.

[JackTucky]

If they ever offer a certificate of authenticity, run for the hills.  Those are the biggest scam on ebay.

Off-Topic, what do you mean?  I was considering buying a COA for Windows XP from a software company (linked from pricewatch).  Are those not legit either?
 this is legit.

Consider that a COA is nothing but a piece of paper.  Anyone can print one.  I  can get some trading card, sign it myself, and give you a COA from me, that it's legit.  It's nothing more than me saying, "I really mean it.  This is legit"  

A COA is only as good as the trust you have in the person who issued it.   There are some organizations that have reputations that make the COA worth something.  The people who rate diamonds come to mind (GIA)?

For instance, Starroms says use your download page?   That's their COA.  But since no one knows who StarRoms is, what good is it?

Someone needs to call the real owner of these Roms (midway?), as an official representative of this website, and ask them if this is legit.  Get your "Press" hat and go to town.

Art

[jerryjanis]

Q> If your company goes under, do I still own it, or does the license expire if you do?

A>Your license would be unaffected. It is still valid.

Q> How can I prove (in a court of law) if necessary that I actually purchased and legally own the ROM I purchased from you?

A>Good question. StarROMs keeps records of all licenses issued. If your license were ever challenged, StarROMs can verify that the license was issued to you.
If you want to have something for your own records, I suggest that you print a copy of your download confirmation page, or else print out your download list.

So our liscense is valid if the company goes under, there's just no way to prove it.

[Nailz]

I can't say i'd trust it at all unless it came direct from Atari, or whatever company owned the actual rom...

Did anyone else notice their "press release" was a pdf?  Any press release I have ever seen lists the actual PRESS they released it to, i.e. a specific newspaper, magazine, etc.  Seems prett suspicious to me.

[RandyT]

Q> If your company goes under, do I still own it, or does the license expire if you do?

A>Your license would be unaffected. It is still valid.

Q> How can I prove (in a court of law) if necessary that I actually purchased and legally own the ROM I purchased from you?

A>Good question. StarROMs keeps records of all licenses issued. If your license were ever challenged, StarROMs can verify that the license was issued to you.
If you want to have something for your own records, I suggest that you print a copy of your download confirmation page, or else print out your download list.

So our liscense is valid if the company goes under, there's just no way to prove it.

I caught that too.

For the price of some of these, I'd expect a "warmer fuzzy".

The whole "credit" thing seems odd as well.  If it costs $6, put $6 on it.

RandyT

[jerryjanis]

I like the list of reasons for "why you should" buy games at Starroms:

Get your files from a safe source. Downloading files from unknown sources is a great way to contract a virus. StarROMs screens all of the ROMs we license for protection against viruses.

I would LOVE to see somebody hack an arcade romset to take advantage of a security hole in Mame to infect a computer with a virus.

(That's not a challenge).

[SirPoonga]

Sir,

Good question.  StarROMs keeps records of all licenses
issued.  If your license were ever challenged, StarROMs
can verify that the license was issued to you.

If you want to have something for your own records, I
suggest that you print a copy of your download
confirmation page, or else print out your download list.

I hope this addresses your concern.  Thank you for
visiting StarROMs.

StarROMs Customer Support

On Thu, 02 Oct 2003 02:02:44 -0500, "Sir Poonga" wrote:

>
> What's the Proof of Purchase to proof to someone I
> purchased these roms
> legally from you?
>
>

[jerryjanis]

There's another link: the "Conditions of use" page.  Here's a quote from that page:

If you believe that your work has been copied in a way that constitutes copyright infringement, please provide StarROMs' copyright agent the written information specified below. Please note that this procedure is exclusively for notifying StarROMs and its affiliates that your copyrighted material has been infringed.

That sounds awfully familiar from some illegal Rom sites (that I've, uhh...  researched) - as though until someone complains, they're not doing anything illegal.

[Chris]

Atari is currently a subsidiary of Infogrames.  http://www.atari.com

Should we just ask them?

[SirPoonga]

Someone on mame.net already did.

[MameMaster!]

This is one of the most interesting "legit" MAME sites I've ever seen.

I'm going to print out this thread and show it to my wife (she's in law school and is studying IP and Copyright ownership now).

...I'll let you know if she has any real legal information to share regarding this.

The MameMaster!  

[RandyT]

There's another link: the "Conditions of use" page.  Here's a quote from that page:

If you believe that your work has been copied in a way that constitutes copyright infringement, please provide StarROMs' copyright agent the written information specified below. Please note that this procedure is exclusively for notifying StarROMs and its affiliates that your copyrighted material has been infringed.

That sounds awfully familiar from some illegal Rom sites (that I've, uhh...  researched) - as though until someone complains, they're not doing anything illegal.

That may be nothing.  They offer MAME for download from their site and probably other emulators or frontends in the future.

I'll admit that it seems suspect, but it doesn't really prove anything.

RandyT

[Dave_K.]

You do all understand that list of Atari roms/games can already be legally bought for PC and Consoles?  Why do I sound like a broken record on this?  Well I've posted it many times before (do a search).  With these Arcade pack CDs costing (at most) $10, thats $1 a rom...cheaper than this stupid site.  Better yet, you get a real physical cdrom to prove your legal ownership of the license.  

As far as a I can see..just about all the roms listed I've seen on these commercially available classic CD packs....and yes they are real roms with commercial emulators (mostly from Digital Eclipse).

[Tiger-Heli]

There's another link: the "Conditions of use" page.  Here's a quote from that page:

If you believe that your work has been copied in a way that constitutes copyright infringement, please provide StarROMs' copyright agent the written information specified below. Please note that this procedure is exclusively for notifying StarROMs and its affiliates that your copyrighted material has been infringed.

That sounds awfully familiar from some illegal Rom sites (that I've, uhh...  researched) - as though until someone complains, they're not doing anything illegal.

Naw you can't really go by that.  That statement would be on there in case American Express complains about it.  Or for that matter, I originally thought that their marquee for centipede was a reduced quality one of the one I put at http://www.fraggersxtreme.com/museum/Images/m_Centipede.jpg
After looking close, I don't think it is, but if it was, I could possibly sue them over that, except the Conditions of Use statement protects them,  (and the fact that I got the image myself from www.caga.com, who doesn't own the original copyright on it either).

I don't think the site is legit, but that statement doesn't prove it isn't legit.

[Tiger-Heli]

Atari is currently a subsidiary of Infogrames.  http://www.atari.com

Should we just ask them?

As pointed out earlier and on MAME.net, I think whoever bought Midway own Atari Arcade.  Not Infogrames.  And whether this site is legit or not, I think I would rather let sleeping dogs lie than bother the actual copyright holders.  They might look at "other" sites as well, or even MAME itself.

[tmasman]

If you go to Arati.com, the contact link sends you to infogrames.com corporate site... So unless infogrames sold Atari recently (& haven't had time to change their site) I'd say Atari is probably owned by InfoGrames...

Anyhow, Here's a clip of the actual license you get with the games...

End-user Software License

 LICENSE.  The Software accompanying this
 License is licensed  to you by StarROMs,
 Inc  (StarROMs),  on  behalf  of  Atari,
 Inc.  (Atari).

Sounds like they could get in BIG trouble if they didn't actually have permission from Atari... I guess when the guy @ mame.net hears back from Atari's contact (I'm assuming now InfoGrames) this site will either be shut down, or all this chatter will be for not (It'll be legit).

We'll see.

[Lilwolf]

They know about mame.... No need on leaking lEEt info to midway.  They know about it and it has built up a new market for them.  Hopefully if this isn't a real company, that enought people will ask midway that they might consider selling them themselfs... (wow, 500 people asked if company A is selling legal roms that we own... We put a lawsuit on the company A... but they did have a great idea... lets email them all back with our offer for a legal rom license)

If this IS a legit company I hope the best... and will definately buy some roms from them... I'm not sure about all.

[SirPoonga]

Tider-Heli, it's not that.  It's we want peace of mind that we are actually getting legal roms.  If I pay for it, it better be legal!

[Tiger-Heli]

Tider-Heli, it's not that.  It's we want peace of mind that we are actually getting legal roms.  If I pay for it, it better be legal!

Well, I don't plan to pay for them, download from Starroms, or worry much about the legality of the ROMS I already have.

But I think something like the Digital Leisure packs or Hanaho's Capcom Roms CD, where the company can say "Here is the arrangement for us to offer these.", sounds a lot more legit than "here's a ROM on behalf of Atari".

[SirPoonga]

Exactly the point.  If I am going to pay for them show me some proof of legality and show me proof of purchase.

Actually, I'd rather own these games if possible.  Alot of good ones, many I play regularly.  Man I play in collections.  I have Atari's Greatist hits and M$ Arcade classics.

[tmasman]

I went ahead & wrote the following email to the corporate contact listed for Atari...

If you belive there is someone better suited to answer my question below, I would appreciate it if you would forward this on to the appropriate contact.

I recently came across a site (http://www.starroms.com/index.php) which offers to sell the Game ROMs from many Arari Arcade titles. I their license they state the following:

"The Software accompanying this License is licensed to you by StarROMs, Inc (StarROMs), on behalf of Atari, Inc. (Atari)..."

I was mainly curious if this is true.  I'm very interested in legally owning a handful of some of these titles for my own personal (in home) use, but I do not want to encourage thieves (if this was not a sanctioned site).

I would appreciate any information you may have on the sale of Arari Arcade Game Roms, including whether or not this site is legitimatly selling them.

Thank you very much for your time.

Thomas Smith
Arlington, TX

I'll let you know if & when I hear back from them...

[SirPoonga]

Oh great, a type.  Arari games

[Magnet_Eye]

On the subject of proving you own the license. I don't see the problem. It's similar to buying any software online. You don't get any piece of paper or COA, so why would you expect one here?

If I download a copy of Macromedia Dreamweaver from their site, and pay with CC, and the cops come to my house one day and see it on my PC, what do I have to show them proof of ownership? My CC bill? An email saying I bought it? If this is enough proof, you surely have these items when purchasing from StarRoms as well, right?  

Just my 2 pence, since a lot of you posted about wanting "proof" you bought or own it. Like anyone is coming to get you or accuse you of stealing 10 antique Atari Roms!  

Just keep your MAME machines hidden in the basement, and all will be well. Maybe we should start basement MAME arcades! Like the speakeasys of the old days! Down with Prohibition!
 

[SirPoonga]

You do have proof of purchase, your creditcard statement.  For the first 15 free credits on this site you don't!

Also, software I buy online sends me an email receipt I can print out.  Buy.com does that.  My Palm Pilot software did that.

[SirPoonga]

Sir,

We considered an email receipt for each game
purchase, but initial feedback seemed to
indicate that most people would rather not
receive that many emails from us. In
addition, a text-based email would be easy
to duplicate/modify and difficult to
validate as an official document.

We are considering better ways to digitally
distribute this documentation. In the meantime,
we would be happy to mail you a signed letter
documenting the titles you have licensed
through StarROMs.

Thanks again.

StarROMs Customer Support


On Thu, 02 Oct 2003 11:56:39 -0500, "Sir Poonga" wrote:

>
> What happens if your company goes under for some
> reason?  You relaly should
> email a receipt to the customer like buy.com does.
>

[tmasman]

I got a reply from Atari regarding this site...
It is legit!!!

From:   "Bushkin, Nancy" <nancy.bushkin@atari.com>
To:   "'tmasman@yahoo.com'" <tmasman@yahoo.com>
Subject:   RE: Quick question regarding Atari games
Date:   Thu, 2 Oct 2003 14:45:29 -0400
   

Thomas, thank you for your email.  Yes, this site is legitimate and we are
working with them so by all means, check it out and buy as much of the
content as you'd like!

Enjoy!

So there you have it.
The final word from Atari's Corporate office.

[JackTucky]

 

I wonder if they hijacked atari.com and are replying to the emails!

Wow, I guess I'll sign up too.

[jerryjanis]

Wow.  I can't believe it.  For a few dollars I can legally MAME 720.  I really can't believe it.

Whatever you guys say, this IS different from purchasing emulated arcade collections, because I can legally play the software in MAME, without any legal unease.

[SirPoonga]

Right, many collections use their own romset and only their emulator.

BTW, what if mame starts using a different romset?  I know asteroids descrete is an ongoing project.  Whatif someone gets a better dump of these roms?  I wonder how starroms will handle that.

[Dave_K.]

Wow.  I can't believe it.  For a few dollars I can legally MAME 720.  I really can't believe it.

Whatever you guys say, this IS different from purchasing emulated arcade collections, because I can legally play the software in MAME, without any legal unease.

The license for the atari packs from Digital Eclipse say for home use only on a single pc running a microsoft operating system.  No mention of using their emulator specifically.

[mod]Sirp, I don't think a license to own a rom is specific to a particular version of that rom.  So any rom set should be fine.  You are paying a license to play the game/rom. [/mod]

[hyiu]

they're legit.... that's good news....

that means even me can own some legit roms !!!... haa ahaa haa....  

well... to them... I guess.... they figured... what's the difference... if they sell those re-pro joystick packages... there're still manufacture costs....
but selling licenses... there's basically no costs to them !!!...

and I believe these licenses they sell ... we can't resell or make profit... (so ... we can't make an arcade and take quarters...)

and even if they don't sell... we'll be playing them anyway....
(and to chase after us individually is not cost efficient....)
so... why not just make some $$ out of the old games that doesn't make any $$ anymore ??....

also... they just give it to this company.... so ... they just charge whatever per download.... to them.... they don't even need more ppl.....

hmmm.... sounds like a pretty cool idea....

maybe we should go to capcom and ask them if they want to sell any rom license for any old games.....

[Xiaou2]

 Ok.. so they are Legit.  So what.   They are still overcharging for the roms... and also, and more importantly...

 If Atari is sold, goes under... or changes thier minds about the situation... and then somehow you lose proof or purchase... what will happen?

 Do you REALLY have a valid legal ownership for life?... and if so... how do you proove that?  

 How will they distinguish a rom criminal... from a legit holder?

 I think a Legal document simular to a cars Title needs to be sent to the purchaser if this is to be fully trustworthy.

 Also... what happens when mame changes the romsets?  Can you re-download the update from them?!!

 (Else there will still always need to be an underground)

   

[MameMaster!]

Wow....I wonder if this will open the flood gates for others to finally follow suit?

This is one of the best things that I my humble opinion could happen to MAME in the long run.

The alternative is someday getting letters from the gaming companies with a lawsuit.  

The MameMaster!

[SirPoonga]

 Ok.. so they are Legit.  So what.   They are still overcharging for the roms... and also, and more importantly...

 If Atari is sold, goes under... or changes thier minds about the situation... and then somehow you lose proof or purchase... what will happen?

 Do you REALLY have a valid legal ownership for life?... and if so... how do you proove that?  

 How will they distinguish a rom criminal... from a legit holder?

 I think a Legal document simular to a cars Title needs to be sent to the purchaser if this is to be fully trustworthy.

 Also... what happens when mame changes the romsets?  Can you re-download the update from them?!!

 (Else there will still always need to be an underground)

 

email them, they are good at answering.

Over priced?  How do you know that?   Have you purchased roms before?  Muvh cheaper than buying the pcb and making the roms yourself.

[SirPoonga]

FYI, 1002 credits needed to purchase was is currently offered.

[RandyT]

Over priced?  How do you know that?   Have you purchased roms before?  Muvh cheaper than buying the pcb and making the roms yourself.

I think this is a great thing.

But I also think it's too expensive.  The comparison you made is kind of "apples to oranges", as these are strictly for personal use.  If you owned the actual boards and ROMS that came on them, you could probably build a cabinet around them and charge others to play.  Not so with these.

So comparing them to the Atari Hits compilation would be more appropriate (also for personal use) except with that you also get a nice CD, Box, Interviews, Extras, etc....  And even with all of the extras, you can pick it up for $10 or less.

It'd be nice if they dropped the ala carte stuff and offered a blanket license for all the Atari games for $39.95 or something equally as reasonable. Because if it's not affordable, many won't see a reason to buy them.

The music industry is finally starting to near the mark with the 79 to 99 cent per download music.  But if that same song cost $2.50, it would be back to the underground.

RandyT

[SirPoonga]

So comparing them to the Atari Hits compilation would be more appropriate (also for personal use) except with that you also get a nice CD, Box, Interviews, Extras, etc....  And even with all of the extras, you can pick it up for $10 or less.

Still apple to oranges.  The only thing you could compare to is Hanaho's Capcom Classics.

The Atari Hits is their own thing, their own rom sets and emulator.  You can't choose the emulator.

My original point was meant to show there really isn't anything to compare too.

[Nailz]

I have to agree with RandyT and Xiaou2, they are asking too much....

People already have these games, why would they pay $6 for Asteroids (which is 25 years old) when games that are only a year old end up in the under $10 bin at most software stores?  Like RandyT said, if they offered a cd with all the roms on it, for $20-30 it would be a great deal.  I don't really care about the interviews, and the box and all that, i'd just like to have the legal set of roms.

$250.50 is WAAAAAY too much to pay for the entire set they are offering.

[SirPoonga]

It's actually more like $134 for all the roms.

Yeah, it's quite abit but it will be hard to get them any cheaper.  Especially since this isn;t something companies do that often.

[CitznFish]

When is all said and done I'm keeping all my ROMS and not paying a dime to this company or any other.  The games got all my money when i was younger...not this time..not...this....time.


(oh, and i have 0 guilt and 0 fear of da popo hunting me down, so there!)

[jerryjanis]

I'm about to cry with joy.  You're now looking at the proud legitimate Mamer of 720, Rampart, Shuuz, Warlords, Marble Madness, Tempest, Quantum, Major Havok, Paperboy, I Robot, Gauntlet, Gauntlet II, Super Sprint, Blasteroids, Centipede, Atari Soccer, and many others.

Each one of these games deserves exclaimation points and giant text and bright colors with animations.

It's hard to say what a fair price for these games is.  I spent an average of $2.06 per game.  When I pick any specific game (Marble Madness, for example) and ask if it's worth $2.06, I think that you gotta be ashamed of yourselves for suggesting that they are overcharging!    When Mame can play 3,000 games, that sure would add up quickly, but now that I quit smoking cigarettes, this would be a perfect place to dump that cash a little bit at a time until I have them all.

This is for all the times that my 10-year-old self spent $35 or more on the biggest p.o.s. Commodore 64 versions of arcade games (Ikari Warriors stands out in my mind) duped by the arcade screenshots on the back of the box with the fine print disclaimer, "arcade pictures shown, actual game may vary."

These are not MP3's.  Mp3's are like the Commodore 64 versions of the songs because the quality is reduced.  What I'm buying is 100% pure arcade software, which in my opinion is typically of a standard of quality way beyond anything that was ever intended for home use no matter how old it is.  It's the equivilent of owning an original brand-new movie reel for theatre use.  This is far better than some crappy DVD.

Don't get me wrong - I don't give a rat's cash what anybody else chooses to do.  It makes sense to get them for free if you can.  Why not?  I just can't personally justify it.  And yes, I will continue to steal the games that are not available, so I will remain just as much of a thief as ever.  I can't help it because Mame is just too darned cool to resist.

[DaveMMR]

Now here's a sweet idea: if Starroms.com could get Atari to trust them with ROMs of games that didn't get released (*cough* Marble Madness II *cough*) so that games that never got a chance will finally be able to be enjoyed, that'd be really great.   They've already got the Atari Classics prototype (though I know that was widely available before).

But I am glad it's legit -- I do encourage all MAMErs to support the legal sale of ROMs so maybe other companies will wise up and start embracing new technology (something the RIAA should have done a long time ago).

However, I still think their pricing and purchasing system is quite ludicrious.  Man, just tell me how much it is so I can pay it.   It seems way too easy to end up with leftover credits (there's a 40 credit minimum but if I only want one game that means I'm being overcharged for the ONE game).  They need to re-think their system if they're going to remain in business.

[OSCAR]

Well, now that it has been stated by both Starroms & the copyright holder that the system is legit, I guess my next question is who set the prices?  I would imagine the copyright holder had some input...

Since the game manufacturers have obviously been cognizant of emulation and rom distribution, and now that an easy & legal avenue of obtaining roms is available to anyone with an internet connection, does this mean that the copyright holder(s) may start policing rom possession/distribution more actively?  MAME has always been, at best, a real gray area.  Some op's, collectors, and repair services do use MAME for the intended purposes of saving the game rom info so replacements can be burned.

So what if other game copyright holders also think this is a fantastic idea to wring a few more $$ out of their old games, but they feel their games are worth more than a few dollars each?  I guess what I'm saying is when you invite the copyright holders to the table and ask permission to "legally" distribute their roms, you may not like their answer (especially if they want more than a buck or two for them).

Open a road for legal distribution, and enforcement may increase as well.  Just a thought, I could very well be wrong here.

Note that I do not condone piracy, but it happens and I'm sure almost everyone has taken part at some time or another...

[CitznFish]

piracy? nah..I don't like boats very much.

[saint]

$134 and I purchased the whole set just to support the concept... heck I *own* a real stunrunner and still bought the rom!

[Howard_Casto]

Regardless of what you think this is one heck of a deal.  The orignal pcbs' new were approx 200 bucks per game.  Even if you bought them used now they are still approx 20 bucks per game.  And EVEN if you did own the pcbs according to recent free use laws you still wouldn't legally own them.  And if you buy the arcade classics cd you don't have the right to make copies of that disc (ie put them on your harddrive) with this liscense I believe you do.  Even if you don't you pretty much have to copy the roms to your harddrive with the classics and you get at least one legal download copy with starroms.  

So this is literally the only 100% legal means of getting roms for personal use on your pc at this point.  Even if you don't agree with the prices it would be a good gesture as a member of the community if you would buy some roms to support the cause.  Personally the ability to perserve aging arcade games legally is well worth the price.  

I have limited funds right now and even I, the king of cheap, will be purchasing them now that I know it's legit.  Do the right thing, support legal emulation use.    Afterall this isn't the RIAA, arcade companys aren't jerks sueing school children, so we should be nice and pay them the money they have earned.  

[Howard_Casto]

Well, now that it has been stated by both Starroms & the copyright holder that the system is legit, I guess my next question is who set the prices?  I would imagine the copyright holder had some input...

Since the game manufacturers have obviously been cognizant of emulation and rom distribution, and now that an easy & legal avenue of obtaining roms is available to anyone with an internet connection, does this mean that the copyright holder(s) may start policing rom possession/distribution more actively?  MAME has always been, at best, a real gray area.  Some op's, collectors, and repair services do use MAME for the intended purposes of saving the game rom info so replacements can be burned.

So what if other game copyright holders also think this is a fantastic idea to wring a few more $$ out of their old games, but they feel their games are worth more than a few dollars each?  I guess what I'm saying is when you invite the copyright holders to the table and ask permission to "legally" distribute their roms, you may not like their answer (especially if they want more than a buck or two for them).

Open a road for legal distribution, and enforcement may increase as well.  Just a thought, I could very well be wrong here.

Note that I do not condone piracy, but it happens and I'm sure almost everyone has taken part at some time or another...

I agree whole heartedly.  However, in the case of atari they really don't have the resources to handle legal actions right now.  Infogrames own them now and it's a small company on top of that.  I think that at best they could barely afford to protect their new xbox games, much less 30 year old liscenses.  

However if midway or nintendo were to buy into this idea then pretty much expect those games to disappear from websites.  They have the money and the power and they have been unsupportive of emulation in the past.  


Again, I also don't condone piracy, but when there isn't a legal method of aquiring items sometimes you have to bend the rules.  I'm just happy I might have another option in the future.  

[OSCAR]

Yeah, I was just presenting another viewpoint, not that I 100% agree with it or where it leads...

As Atari/Infogrames is the flagship in this venture, I wouldn't expect anything "bad" to happen,  as you said.  However, if the big boys buy into this, then things may not be all roses...

Could MAME possibly evolve into a commercially sponsored project??  Heh, just stirring the pot folks, don't take that serious.  (yet)    

[paigeoliver]

 

Luckily I already have all the Roms I will ever need, (which is of course only Time Pilot, Time Pilot '84, Super Basketball, Road Fighter, Crystal Castles, and Kangaroo, because those are the only real boardsets I own anymore).

 

I also took the liberty of downloading Kangaroo 3 times, since I have 3 of those boardsets.  

[SirPoonga]

Now here's a sweet idea: if Starroms.com could get Atari to trust them with ROMs of games that didn't get released (*cough* Marble Madness II *cough*)

I think that game will only come is Atari talks to the dude that bought the MMII cabinet

[Howard_Casto]

Luckily I already have all the Roms I will ever need, (which is of course only Time Pilot, Time Pilot '84, Super Basketball, Road Fighter, Crystal Castles, and Kangaroo, because those are the only real boardsets I own anymore).

 

I also took the liberty of downloading Kangaroo 3 times, since I have 3 of those boardsets.  

So you downloaded them illegally then.  Unfortunately, as I explained above, owning the original pcb does not legally entitle you to have a "backup" according to current copyright laws.  I don't see anything wrong with it, but legally speaking you are just as liable as a person without the pcbs.  Don't blame me, blame the RIAA.

[paigeoliver]

Luckily I already have all the Roms I will ever need, (which is of course only Time Pilot, Time Pilot '84, Super Basketball, Road Fighter, Crystal Castles, and Kangaroo, because those are the only real boardsets I own anymore).

 

I also took the liberty of downloading Kangaroo 3 times, since I have 3 of those boardsets.  

So you downloaded them illegally then.  Unfortunately, as I explained above, owning the original pcb does not legally entitle you to have a "backup" according to current copyright laws.  I don't see anything wrong with it, but legally speaking you are just as liable as a person without the pcbs.  Don't blame me, blame the RIAA.

I personally don't believe any current laws about music or software have anything at all to do with the ROM images from 2 decade old commercial equipment that was sold without any sort of licensing agreement. I have the manuals and paperwork to most of my games, nowhere does it say anything of the sort.

Also, the general public does not care one bit about copyright laws, nor do the police. Are laws truly valid if no one supports nor follows them? Kind of like the speed limits. Which are ignored by everyone including the police and official government vehicles.

The speed limits are laws that do not serve their intended purpose do to the fact that they are ignored by everyone. Instead they serve to provide a random tax on any given citizen when they decide to stop that citizen.

The copyright laws are exactly the same thing, except that instead of providing random income for cities and towns, it does it for companies. The general public cares about as much about copyright as it does about speeding.

Anyway. I am not going to take this arguement any further Howard. We simply don't agree on the subject. I firmly believe that copyright laws are wrong, and the concept of intellectual property is just a boil on the face of humanity.

[vishwats]

Did you guys try to buy THE CDs from Livewarehouse.com ? You can buy some of the Roms at a good price and you get a CD to show for it

[DaveMMR]

Now here's a sweet idea: if Starroms.com could get Atari to trust them with ROMs of games that didn't get released (*cough* Marble Madness II *cough*)

I think that game will only come is Atari talks to the dude that bought the MMII cabinet

Although I admit there's much I don't know about that - would Atari have actually sold him the rights to the game as well as the cabinet?  Cause otherwise I don't see how it would be his choice at all.  

[paigeoliver]

He may not have the rights, but I believe he owns every known boardset for that and a couple of other games. So, sure someone else may own the rights, but they might very well not have a copy of it in the first place.

In a bit of delicious irony about what is a legal rom file and what isn't, I noticed there are several prototypes available which Atari likely no longer had the original roms to.

[Lilwolf]

HAHAHAHA!  Now theres NO question for you if its legal to use someone elses backup (some question this... really!)

$134 and I purchased the whole set just to support the concept... heck I *own* a real stunrunner and still bought the rom!

[RandyT]

Did you guys try to buy THE CDs from Livewarehouse.com ? You can buy some of the Roms at a good price and you get a CD to show for it

Good link.

This is how I would love to see this done.  A business card CD for each title purchased.  They are small, cheap and a material record of the purchase.  They can also pretty much be be sent in a regular envelope for cheap shipping.

With some neat graphics screened on each one, you could even appeal to the "gotta collect them all" mentality.

Ahh, but I'm dreaming

RandyT

[Tiger-Heli]

Now here's a sweet idea: if Starroms.com could get Atari to trust them with ROMs of games that didn't get released (*cough* Marble Madness II *cough*)

I think that game will only come is Atari talks to the dude that bought the MMII cabinet

Although I admit there's much I don't know about that - would Atari have actually sold him the rights to the game as well as the cabinet?  Cause otherwise I don't see how it would be his choice at all.  

IANAL, but this is an interesting question.  The original games were (still are) sold before the era of software copyrights, so there was no license sold with the game, nor any restriction to what you do with the game (other than outright duplication and resale).

The real question is whether current copyright, intellectual property, and software protection and licensing laws apply to ROMs at all, and I don't think that has ever been answered.  (And may vary on what lawyer/judge you talk to).

[paigeoliver]

Now here's a sweet idea: if Starroms.com could get Atari to trust them with ROMs of games that didn't get released (*cough* Marble Madness II *cough*)

I think that game will only come is Atari talks to the dude that bought the MMII cabinet

Although I admit there's much I don't know about that - would Atari have actually sold him the rights to the game as well as the cabinet?  Cause otherwise I don't see how it would be his choice at all.  

IANAL, but this is an interesting question.  The original games were (still are) sold before the era of software copyrights, so there was no license sold with the game, nor any restriction to what you do with the game (other than outright duplication and resale).

The real question is whether current copyright, intellectual property, and software protection and licensing laws apply to ROMs at all, and I don't think that has ever been answered.  (And may vary on what lawyer/judge you talk to).

EXACTLY. My copy of Age of Empires 2 has all sorts of legal speak all over the box, and manual, and disc, and cover, and software.

My Crystal Castles machine doesn't say jack on the machine, doesn't say jack inside the machine, and doesn't say jack in the manual. So I don't understand how it can be retroactively affected. It had no license, so how can I be breaking that license?

[nighthawk2099]

I believe that in situations like that (software or products prior to lic.) that pocession of the original Roms and Boards is your lic. (much like pocession of an original music CD gives you the rights to own the CD).. heck.. .. I never did take law, so what do I know... just my 2 lincolns.

[Tiger-Heli]

EXACTLY. My copy of Age of Empires 2 has all sorts of legal speak all over the box, and manual, and disc, and cover, and software.

My Crystal Castles machine doesn't say jack on the machine, doesn't say jack inside the machine, and doesn't say jack in the manual. So I don't understand how it can be retroactively affected. It had no license, so how can I be breaking that license?

Well, I don't think Atari can say you can't play Crystal Castles on your machine anymore without downloading from StarRoms, but software licenses can be changed, and retroactively.  Here's a (real) example:

A certain company used to offer free downloads of add-on locomotives for Microsoft Train Simulator.  The downloads were free, and the included license said the add-on was free to download and use, free to re-distribute (as long as the original company was given credit), and free to use in other freeware add-on offerings.  I believe the license did prohibit selling the add-on, or using it in commercial products without permission of the authors.

At a later date, the company decided not to offer the package for download anymore, but to include it in a package that you would pay for.  They also changed the license to no longer allow free distribution of the add-on.

A lot of the add-on makers who had based their engines (cab view usually) on this product were understandably upset.

I thought the logic should apply that since I downloaded it for free, and since my copy said free to distribute, I could do anything I wanted with it, including posting it on a website, if I so desired.  I was quickly told in no uncertain terms that the current license basically revoked the license I was given, and I could not do this.  Basically, they also said that while I could continue using the free download, if it ever got lost and I didn't have a backup, I would now have to purchase it from them.  And I doubt I could even give it to someone else, even if I deleted all copies of it from my possession.

Point is - AFAICT, Atari can say "We are AMENDING the software license, and the only legal roms are those purchased from www.starroms.com."  All other roms must be removed.

They could also decide next week that they no longer wish to grant a license to starroms.com, and no licensed copies exist, and while you would still be able to use the software you originally downloaded, you would not be able to legally replace it if it got lost.

[clok]

Before reading, this is all "what If" Im not implying I or anybody else has any illegal roms.


I can only see one negative to this whole deal. And saddly its a pretty weak negative. MONEY... while owning the ROms legal is GREAT!, I'm all for it. The simple fact (not pointing fingers, or saying everybody does, but most do) is alot of us have Complete sets of MAME roms. If this pay to own Rom thing actually works, others will follow. Now look 1-5 years down the road, Every Rom is there for purchase, most at $1-5 a piece. Well, lets take out clones, non working roms, lets even just say the price is $1 a rom (a very fair price, maybe too fair, and not likley to happen). We are looking at a $3,000 investment (not counting machine building) to have a legal Mame Machine. Again, not really unreasonble for the amount of games you would have... But I would guess there are very few of us that could afford it.

Getting Legal roms (after having them other ways) is a sorta a Catch - 22, Most of us would happly pay for them if we could, but most of us couldnt afford them, so wont.

I would prefer to see somthing more like a $25-$50 pack of all one manufactures roms, bulk discount if you would. I would say, if i could own all  my roms legaly for around $500 area I would really look into it.

It will be interesting to see where this all goes.

Clok

[Nailz]

I can guarantee that most of the people that actually have all 4000 roms don't even play a decent fraction of them.  If they really had to, one could certainly pare down the list to essential "must-haves" of classics and nostalgic games they would want on a machine.

That being said, my list of must haves would be probably 100 to 200 games on the very outside, and I just don't think I could lay out $400-500 for 20 year old games that not that many are playing.  I think all of us on these sites are in a decidely small yet dedicated minority.

[RandyT]

Unfortunately, as I explained above, owning the original pcb does not legally entitle you to have a "backup" according to current copyright laws.

Howard,

Please post your references which back up this statement.  I am not a lawyer, but I do not believe that this statement is factual.  Copyright law hasn't changed, AFAIK, in the last nearly 30years, and making an archival copy of  a computer program you purchased is indeed allowed.

Or have I missed something recently?  (entirely possible)

RandyT

*edit*
Narrowed "copyrighted material" to "computer program".  
Also, do not take this as legal advice!

[Tiger-Heli]

Unfortunately, as I explained above, owning the original pcb does not legally entitle you to have a "backup" according to current copyright laws.

Howard,

Please post your references which back up this statement.  I am not a lawyer, but I do not believe that this statement is factual.  Copyright law hasn't changed, AFAIK, in the last nearly 30years, and making an archival copy of copyrighted material you own is indeed allowed.

Or have I missed something recently?  (entirely possible)

RandyT

Randy,

He might have gotten that from my page where I say (as an example):

I actually own a (Tron, Assault, Pac-Man) arcade main board (PCB), so I can keep the ROMS as backups.

[Lilwolf]

Also, Microsoft (or was it the music industry?  I forgot) and a few others have had the law changed in the last few years...

But they are all trying to remove the ability to create a backup...

It has been changed... And not in our favor....

Not to self.  Buy off some congress members to fix this!

[Howard_Casto]

Yeah according to the screensavers all intellectual copyrighted media (read software, music, roms, digital art, ect)  cannot be archived as a "backup" for any reason what-so ever unless the eula specifically says otherwise according to recent rulings by a California judge. It's part of the new modified DMCA which btw effects all forms of digital media, not just music.  As arcade pcbs didn't really have a eula it is illegal by default.  I didn't say that "big bad arcade industy" is going to sue you, because quite frankly, unlike the RIAA, they aren't jerks.  

However, this doesn't remove the technical illegality of the matter.  This new system is thus far the only legal way to play games on your harddrive in mame. (That I know of)

Btw the software "backup" law was taken out years and years ago (like 1990 or before)  by modified eula's on literally EVERY piece of commercial pc software revoking your right to make a backup.  You agree to the eula by opening the box.  Is that right?  Definately not.  Is it a legal way of doing it?  Unfortunately yes.  

Again I'm not trying to argue or make waves here.  I'm just trying to make a point that owning the pcb is more of a moral justification than anything else.  If any of you are going by the mame justification, keep in mind that mame was started several years ago, the "justification" section hasn't been updated at all since that time, and they aren't lawyers either.

[paigeoliver]

If Mame really cared about being legal, than it wouldn't support the bootleg romsets. Because there is absolutely no legal way to own a bootleg romset. Even if you own the "original" bootleg board.

[SirPoonga]

that still doesn't make mame illegal

[Valence]

I do not know what "screensavers" is or if that "Judge" was a federal one.

But here is the answer Section 117 of the Copyright Act of 1976 was enacted in the Computer Software Copyright Amendments of 1980 in response to the recommendations of the National Commission on New Technological Uses of Copyrighted Works' (CONTU). Section 117 permits the owner of a copy of a computer program to make an additional copy of the program for purely archival purposes if all archival copies are destroyed in the event that continued possession of the computer program should cease to be rightful, or where the making of such a copy is an essential step in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other manner.  

That was the law that enabled you to do it in the first place.

The only change to this section from title I of the DMCA was that temporary copies in random access memory (RAM) are copies that are subject to the copyright owner's exclusive reproduction right

Now, I know that some states have superDCMA's but as I don't live in California nor do most of the people that come here, I could care less.

As far as the RIAA is concerned. I have not purchased a cd in 7 years. Nor do I have any downloaded music.  (Did download some Roy D Mercer a while back though.)

[hooded_paladin]

what it comes down to is,
some people download whatever roms we want.
some people own the roms of whatever boardsets they have.
just about no one dumps their own roms off their own boardsets to make it "legal", which it isn't really.
almost all of us have some roms/music/whatever that aren't ours.  Luckily, the arcade industry isn't as insane and greedy as the recording industry when it comes to copyrights.

[Howard_Casto]

I do not know what "screensavers" is or if that "Judge" was a federal one.

But here is the answer Section 117 of the Copyright Act of 1976 was enacted in the Computer Software Copyright Amendments of 1980 in response to the recommendations of the National Commission on New Technological Uses of Copyrighted Works' (CONTU). Section 117 permits the owner of a copy of a computer program to make an additional copy of the program for purely archival purposes if all archival copies are destroyed in the event that continued possession of the computer program should cease to be rightful, or where the making of such a copy is an essential step in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other manner.  

That was the law that enabled you to do it in the first place.

The only change to this section from title I of the DMCA was that temporary copies in random access memory (RAM) are copies that are subject to the copyright owner's exclusive reproduction right

Now, I know that some states have superDCMA's but as I don't live in California nor do most of the people that come here, I could care less.

As far as the RIAA is concerned. I have not purchased a cd in 7 years. Nor do I have any downloaded music.  (Did download some Roy D Mercer a while back though.)

Excuse me for being picky here, but you can't justify your point with a 30 year old law. It was a federal judge btw.  If you don't know what the screensavers is then I feel for you, I really do as you are being denied techtv, the best cable channel ever.  Especially if you want to keep current with the DMCA and the RIAA's hyjinks.  

[Magnet_Eye]

It's part of the new modified DMCA which btw effects all forms of digital media, not just music.  As arcade pcbs didn't really have a eula it is illegal by default.

Uh....a PCB is not Digital Media. So it doesn't fall into the DMCA.

I personally think if I want to backup the roms from my Tempest arcade game, I can do so without violating any copyright law.

[hooded_paladin]

why oh why do we have this debate every week?

[rampy]

I do not know what "screensavers" is or if that "Judge" was a federal one.

But here is the answer Section 117 of the Copyright Act of 1976 was enacted in the Computer Software Copyright Amendments of 1980 in response to the recommendations of the National Commission on New Technological Uses of Copyrighted Works' (CONTU). Section 117 permits the owner of a copy of a computer program to make an additional copy of the program for purely archival purposes if all archival copies are destroyed in the event that continued possession of the computer program should cease to be rightful, or where the making of such a copy is an essential step in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other manner.  

That was the law that enabled you to do it in the first place.

The only change to this section from title I of the DMCA was that temporary copies in random access memory (RAM) are copies that are subject to the copyright owner's exclusive reproduction right

Now, I know that some states have superDCMA's but as I don't live in California nor do most of the people that come here, I could care less.

As far as the RIAA is concerned. I have not purchased a cd in 7 years. Nor do I have any downloaded music.  (Did download some Roy D Mercer a while back though.)

Excuse me for being picky here, but you can't justify your point with a 30 year old law. It was a federal judge btw.  If you don't know what the screensavers is then I feel for you, I really do as you are being denied techtv, the best cable channel ever.  Especially if you want to keep current with the DMCA and the RIAA's hyjinks.  

Howard, I have to take you task a little bit... SPICE is the best cable channel ever. Hands Down... Skinimax and hoetime are 2nd and 3rd respectively.

Just to be contrary (it's what I do best  )

The age of the law doesn't change it's validity... It obviously needs to be redone/updated for this century without big corporate (cough, riaa , mpaa)  interests hooks in to the legislation... possibly to arrive at a happy medium of fair use yet still respecting intellectual property rights (if such a thing actually exists)

You can argue that, that specific law does not apply.  You can debate the letter of that law. But just because the law is 30 years old doesn't change it's validity ( certainly circumstances/technology 30 years later has changed the net effect - hence all the draconian add on's to the copyright/IP laws... )

*shrug*  IANAL  BIAABH (but i am a butt head)

=P

rampy