Newb- Turning a San Francisco Rush cabinet into a MAME/xbox360 with HAPP FFB

[Impact93]

Hi guys

My name is Jon and I'm from British Columbia Canada.  I've been reading a lot on these forums, seems like a collective of genius hackers and moders with the time and patience to help those with no clue (ME)


So... jumping right in... here is a rough list of what im trying to accomplish and the parameters (subject to change) in which i think i would like to see this come to fruition.

I'm starting with a fully functional SFS:Rush cabinet. I would like to convert said cabinet to a cabinet that is capable of running multiple driving games of different variety's and i would like to have fully functioning force feedback via the HAPP force feedback that already exists in the SFSR cabinet.

I realize that not all MAME games allow for force feedback, i've read a few things about MAME Hooker and how Sega Model 2 now supports force feedback, I'm not really clear on details of either of those as far as force feedback goes so i was hoping for guidance in that direction.  I have set up emulators and so forth so i'm roughly aware of the software side of things but i've never bothered with FFB.

I realize that this is no simple task and that it is going to take some out of the box thinking.  That said, i know that this has been done before by a gentleman named TheSharkFactor using Sega Model 2 and a PS3. This of course is slightly easier than what i intend to do because so many race wheels that currently exist on the market are ps2,ps3 and PC compatible.

This brings me to my first big roadbloack (of many) .   In order to get my arcade cabinet to "talk" to a xbox 360 and PC I first need to find a race wheel that i can find on the market that is capable of playing both Xbox360 games and PC games, it also has to be able to communicate via POT and NOT cost a ton.

 As far as i understand it, race pedals and race wheels are just mechanical variants of a simple task.  This simple task is the turning of a POT.  Yes the POTS can be different as far as what kind of amperage goes to them but the mechanical function remains the same weather we are talking about a lap race wheel or a sit down arcade system.  I have come to understand however that there are race wheels out there that do not rely on POTS in order to function.  SO, my first problem is figuring out if there is a steering wheel out there that covers all my required bases.

from the information that i've gathered it seems like it is possible for the Microsoft Xbox360 wheel to communicate with both PC and Xbox 360, though i'm not sure if this applies to Model2.  The other problem i have is that im not sure that the Microsoft wheel is POT driven or uses a different system.  Does anyone know or am i going to have to drop $60 and find out for myself?

thanks for the help guys.





Other problems that i'm going to have off the top of my head.

-What to do about shifting?  Simple buttons on the steering wheel like a F1 car?  Paddles? or get really ballsy and attempt to configure the 4 speed H shifter to a 6 speed, buy a pre built and EXPENSIVE 6 speed shifter that already exists for PC and some how configure it to work with the 360....?

-Amplifying the signal from the POTS if infact i can find a wheel that i'm looking for, though from what i can see thesharkfactor had already come up with a solution for that, i just don't quite understand it.

[Impact93]

Wow, 26 views and not even 1 comment?

Anyone know where I should start looking?

[BadMouth]

I realize that not all MAME games allow for force feedback, i've read a few things about MAME Hooker and how Sega Model 2 now supports force feedback, I'm not really clear on details of either of those as far as force feedback goes so i was hoping for guidance in that direction.  I have set up emulators and so forth so i'm roughly aware of the software side of things but i've never bothered with FFB.

FFB works great in Sega Model 2 & Supermodel.  There is no steering wheel FFB support for MAME yet.  Howard (author of MAMEhooker) has tinkered with it, but the changes have not been incorporated into the MAME drivers yet.

I realize that this is no simple task and that it is going to take some out of the box thinking.  That said, i know that this has been done before by a gentleman named TheSharkFactor using Sega Model 2 and a PS3. This of course is slightly easier than what i intend to do because so many race wheels that currently exist on the market are ps2,ps3 and PC compatible.

A few of us have done the logitech wheel hack using the same method that thesharkfactor used, but there is an issue with the wheel constantly shaking unless centering feedback is turned way down in the emulator or logitech profiler.  I still have this setup on my test bench and would like to find the cause & solution, but haven't had time to mess with it in a while.    Brad808 got it working well enough by tweaking each game individually until the shaking went away, but as far as I know gave up on finding servo amp settings that worked on both the pc and the ps2/3: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=115186.0
Just be forewarned, it's not plug 'n play...and plenty of people have never been able to get it to work as well as they want.

This brings me to my first big roadbloack (of many) .   In order to get my arcade cabinet to "talk" to a xbox 360 and PC I first need to find a race wheel that i can find on the market that is capable of playing both Xbox360 games and PC games, it also has to be able to communicate via POT and NOT cost a ton.

I don't have any experience with the microsoft xbox360 wheel, but a google search reveals that the windows driver for it doesn't support FFB.
Don't know if the MadCatz one does.  The MadCatz one is probably pot based since it only rotates 270 degrees, but I don't know for sure.

As far as i understand it, race pedals and race wheels are just mechanical variants of a simple task.  This simple task is the turning of a POT.  Yes the POTS can be different as far as what kind of amperage goes to them but the mechanical function remains the same weather we are talking about a lap race wheel or a sit down arcade system.......-Amplifying the signal from the POTS if infact i can find a wheel that i'm looking for, though from what i can see thesharkfactor had already come up with a solution for that, i just don't quite understand it.

You'll have to swap out the 5k arcade pots currently in the cab with ones that are the same value of the original ones out of the wheel you are hacking.

-What to do about shifting?  Simple buttons on the steering wheel like a F1 car?  Paddles? or get really ballsy and attempt to configure the 4 speed H shifter to a 6 speed, buy a pre built and EXPENSIVE 6 speed shifter that already exists for PC and some how configure it to work with the 360....?

Use the 4 speed hap already in the cab and hack it to the buttons of the steering wheel you are hacking.



I have never seen an xbox 360 wheel hacked.  It should work the same as any other wheel hack, but you might just be the first.
The reason most people use the logitech wheels is because they're fairly easy to find and the logitech profiler software.
Profiler software allows you to configure all settings for the wheel for each game or emulator individually.  Some emulators require the pedals to be set to combined in windows.  Some require them to be set to separate.  Profiler makes it a lot easier.

More info in the link in my sig.

[RamjetR]

You really need to sit down and plan exactly what it is your planning to acheive in a conversion.

For me, I was building something out of nothing. Wrecked cab $100 into something fun. I wasn't aiming for authentic conversion or restoration, just a fun hobby.

When you already have a working machine, you need to figure out if your intending to keep it Arcade authentic or MAME/Sim.
If authentic is your goal, then pursue the oem/logitech hack a'la sharkfactor.... if not? save yourself a world of pain and find way to slot in a decent PC wheel. I spent most of my time in the build just figuring out how to mount that damn steering wheel.

Check out my build photo's (in no particular order mind you) here:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/113878401085172785670/albums/5706973562574671825

I'm using a G27 in my machine now, although I used a G25 for my initial sizing for dash fit. As for shifter, I have the working padels on the wheel, 6 speed H-shifter like normal and for the kicks, the original sequential on the dashboard was wired to a cheap $5 joypad I got on ebay. As were the coin slots which also work like normal gamepad buttons and are mapped to the coin button in M2Emulator etc...

The Logitech G27 works with Every PC game (except NFS: The Run.... but thats an EA problem oddly it conflicts with a mouse?!)... It works great in both M2E and Supermodel 3. I haven't found anything that I've wanted to play, actually be held back by choosing the Logitech. Just making it look like it should be in the dashboard is the hard part.

Choosing the right screen.... the right screen will make or break all of your effort. I'm not familiar with the condition of your machine, but if it's CRT and looks good, you may want to stick with that. Otherwise if LCD replacement is what your looking at, then seriously, don't skimp on the LCD... a cheap poor contrast and poor viewing angle will make all of your efforts look terrible. If you have the space, get nice samsung HD in there. You'll thank me when you do.

Model 2 Emulator looks a-m-a-z-i-n-g on a Samsung 40" D6600 LCD. But it's worth taking a laptop into a store and seeing what it looks like from an arm's length away before you commit to buying something!!!

Youtube Channel for ideas: http://www.youtube.com/user/ramjetr?feature=mhee

Don't forget to post pics of your build. Everyone is happy to help, but not everyone frequents the site daily.... it takes quite a bit of effort to collate and respond in an informative way to help you.

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with

Ramjet

[Impact93]

 

Thanks guys!  Those simple observations have made a world of difference.  I really appreciate the input.  Its hard to know which direction to go when you wade out into this quagmire of information that is based on building a driving cab.


My main goal in this project was to have some force feedback that would actually feel like something.  I dont have much experience with PC wheel force feedback but i've always heard that they are pretty damn weak, hence the reason i would put myself thru the torture of trying to cobble together something that would take advantage of the big ole force feedback thats already in the SFS.Rush.

the more i read though, the more it seems like people are pretty satisfied with the G27 as far as FFB goes. 

I'm not aiming for anything but fun and the ability to play as many race games as possible that use force feedback.  I love everything from Gran Tourismo to Hydro Thunder.  I dont really care about restoring this Rush cabinet back to its original form.  I picked it up for $200 and it happens to all work but 1 game on such a giant cab is not enough, i need many games on this thing if I'm going to justify its space.

The CRT in this rush cabinet looks AMAZING, no burn in and clear colors, its a beaut.  I'd love to keep it if i could.  I've heard a few people mention Viletim's monitor conversion or something like that?  apparently its supposed to make it pretty easy to keep the CRT... though i dont know why that would be an issue.  to be honest, i havent even considered what screen i would use or HOW it would hook up to a PC or PS3.


Thanks RamJet and Badmouth.

My current thought process has now changed! I will be getting a G27 or equivalent (i have an opportunity to buy a and fitting it to my cab.  I just hope the FFB isn't lame 

The SFS.Rush cab seems like it is quite willing to accept a new steering wheel setup, the cab is setup in such a way that the steering wheel lowers to the ground once you remove 2 screws, this steering wheel is in an open box with hinges on it, simple but from what i can see, could be quite useful as far as swapping steering wheel setups.  We shall find out.

I already have Model 2 running on my pc so that should give me access to a few games right away, do i need to do anything special with model 2 besides control set up to get the FFB working?

Thanks again for the help gentlemen.  Now the next bridge i need to cross is...

Used G27 from craiglist or New?

[RamjetR]

Force Feedback should just "work" without doing a thing. Install the logitech driver software as you would with any PC peripheral and your pretty much good to go.

I've never really had to tweak anything for force feedback at all. The logitech software settings for strength have always been pretty much spot on for my taste. But everyone is different.

For your CRT, I'm not sure what your inputs are for that screen. If you need to video convert down to something it will display or if there is standard connections. Bare in mind that on the CRT, PC games will probably suffer alot in terms of visual quality. But they will probably have that same kind of arcade'y look once they are set at 800x600 etc. eBay has video converters for going native arcade pcb up to HD LCD outputs and converters that take HD LCD XGA down to native arcade monitor inputs. They aren't expensive and I'm about buy one for running a TV in my TNMT cab I've been fiddling with for about a year.

Sending us some pics would be nice to see? Can give more advice from pictures. Oh, and from experience... for fitting that G27. Take close attention to how I made the hole to make it fit. Paper Machee! Make a 3D mould of the wheel, trim it at the correct depth to insert the wheel into the dash, and there you have a cutting template for the cross section of the wheel.

[BadMouth]

I already have Model 2 running on my pc so that should give me access to a few games right away, do i need to do anything special with model 2 besides control set up to get the FFB working?

Used G27 from craiglist or New?

In your Model 2 folder, open emulator.cfg and set:
EnableFF=1

It's just that simple.

Supermodel is a little more complicated, but the help page and and the readme file cover everything. (most people don't take the time to read it)

Newegg has G27's on sale for $205 US w/free shipping every so often.
That's about what used ones sell for, so If you can get a new one that cheap, definitely go that route so you have a warranty.
It's currently $225 at newegg, which is a decent price.

You can still use your SF Rush pedals with the G27 if you swap out the pots in them (I have SF Rush pedals in my cab),
or you can mount them like Gbeef did: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=111231.msg1190520#msg1190520

[Impact93]

Woohoo!

This is great.  I've been looking for help for
A month and finaly now I've got all kinds of help!

1 thing that's got my attention is the Fanatec Porsche wheel, it
Coms with Xbox,PC AND Ps3.

Expensive though....

I suppose if I sell all the stock gear from my Rush cab I should get a decent amount of money, should considerably offset the price of a new wheel.

This rocks, I'm excited.

You guys heard of a HAPP  pcb FFB  communicator?  Apparently it makes ALL MAME games communicate force feedback? I'm unclear on the details, just heard of it briefly.

[RamjetR]

Do your research on multi compatible wheels. From memory, some that support all 3 platforms will "emulate" a joypad on some platforms whilst be full FFB on others. So whilst they may work, it may not be exactly what your looking for. From memory, and thats sketchy at best, but I'm sure I saw on an insideracing.com video that the Fanatec wheels do exactly that for PS3 or Xbox, can't remember of the top of my head.

Insideracing.com videos on wheel reviews are rediculously over the top indepth and there is a hot chick on it. Get your steering wheel advice from the Pro's. Go check out their youtube video reviews.

As for configuring it up to work in games, we can help you there.

[Well Fed Games]

Insideracing.com videos on wheel reviews are rediculously over the top indepth and there is a hot chick on it. Get your steering wheel advice from the Pro's. Go check out their youtube video reviews.

better yet, try http://www.insidesimracing.tv (which is a real webpage)  .

[BadMouth]

You guys heard of a HAPP  pcb FFB  communicator?  Apparently it makes ALL MAME games communicate force feedback? I'm unclear on the details, just heard of it briefly.

Doubtful.  The outputs aren't there in MAME as far as I know, so I don't see how you could get ffb with no signal to base it on.

In searching for that though, I came accross this guy's work:
http://www.racedepartment.com/forum/threads/my-homemade-ffb-controller.37051/
He's written his own software for one of these:
http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9931
That makes it appear to the PC as a game controller and output ffb signals.

Looks like a promising interface for using Happ FFB wheels!
He's still using the AMC servo amplifier, but says he plans to design his own.
In his youtube videos, it doesn't appear to have any of the shaking issues. (EDIT: The youtube videos are someone else who used an arduino)
Man, I wish I had this guy's understanding of both the hardware and software side of ffb.  

Sounds like he plans to sell these after beta testing is finished.
(I've always wondered if the U-HID could be made to output ffb signals with custom firmware)

EDIT: This guy ends up using an arduino http://www.racedepartment.com/forum/threads/my-custom-happ-f430-steering-wheel.20840/

[BadMouth]

Man, I didn't realize there were a few other options out there that I wasn't aware of. 

Apparently people have also used the interface card out of newer Global VR games like Need For Speed.
"Steering PCB, Immersion, Single-Board Style (990-0040-01)"
$450 from Happ. 
Looks like the website that had the drivers for it is no longer there.

I don't see any examples of people using it, but it's mentioned in the other threads that it's been done.

Maybe that's the "HAPP pcb FFB communicaotr" Impact93 mentioned.

[Impact93]

Let the mind blowing commence!

Thesharkfactor from a different forum threw this my direction.

http://na.suzohapp.com/images/pdf/ins-0037.pdf

Apparently I can keep all my current buttons and force feedback system if I'm only interested in Model 2,3 MAME.

Allows me to keep my force feedback too!

Come to think of it, if it changes all my controls to USB it should communicate with ps3 too shouldn't it?

[BadMouth]

Let the mind blowing commence!

Thesharkfactor from a different forum threw this my direction.

http://na.suzohapp.com/images/pdf/ins-0037.pdf

Apparently I can keep all my current buttons and force feedback system if I'm only interested in Model 2,3 MAME.

Allows me to keep my force feedback too!

Come to think of it, if it changes all my controls to USB it should communicate with ps3 too shouldn't it?

It sounds a lot like the U-HID from ultimarc.
I don't see where ffb is supported.  Got a link to someone who has used it on their project?

[Impact93]

No I don't.

From what I understand, all that harness does is switch everything to one USB wire which does have the ability to send FFB signals.

I think I was more excited than I needed to be....

All this does is make keeping my stock controls for running PC based games easier.

I guess I also need a HAPP driver pcb to communicate with the PC...

Oye...... My head hurts.

The simplest solution is a fanatec wheel.... Lol

[Impact93]

Quite frankly I'm not sure why I'm bothering to look at keeping any of the HAPP gear,

Clearly the best solution is a Ps3,360,PC wheel.  Why bother with software Pcb's limited function And all that other crap when I can just use a 3 way wheel.

What am I sacrificeing?  Maybe a bit of force feedback torque?  (assuming the HAPP one is stronger)

Not only that, I do woodwork for a living so that puts the most complicated process (mounting the wheel) right in my wheelhouse (no pun intended)

Not only that, I bet I can more than pay for a fanatec wheel with all the Rush the Rock guts and hardware.

[gbeef]

Im selling off my gear from my old wheel. Including servo controller and PS2. Wheel Its all in parts if your interested send me a PM. I didnt have the patients or time to complete my wheel hack.
You will need pots and alot of time to dial everything in. So i went back to my older wheel G27 as i also play sim i needed the extra buttons.

[Impact93]

Thanks for the offer but I'm going to just get a Fanatec 3 system wheel and go from there.

Going to keep the pedals that  came with the rush cab, just have to change the pots.

[bkenobi]

Quite frankly I'm not sure why I'm bothering to look at keeping any of the HAPP gear,
...
What am I sacrificeing?

HAPP stuff is designed to take a pounding from sticky-fingered kids and deviant teenagers.  If you try to do anything like that with a PS3/Xbox360/PC setup, you will find the difference.

[Impact93]

Yea, but this machine won't be touched by teens who don't respect it.

Nobody has been able to give me an answer on FFB strength on the modern race wheels as compared to HAPP.

Anyone know?  Must be comparable at least.

[BadMouth]

Yea, but this machine won't be touched by teens who don't respect it.

Nobody has been able to give me an answer on FFB strength on the modern race wheels as compared to HAPP.

Anyone know?  Must be comparable at least.

You are comparing a motor that's the size of a "D" battery powered by a 1 amp wall wart (in the case of the G27, it has dual motors)
to a big heavy duty motor connected to a 6 amp supply.
Sorry, it's not going to be comparable.

....Unless you spend a few grand on an ecci wheel. (which comes with a motor that looks a lot like the happ one)
http://www.ecci7000.com/

Not comparable doesn't = not enjoyable.
I've been using a little old Logitech MOMO wheel in my cab since it was built and I love the thing.
The ffb, although not as strong, feels more precise than the happ hack.
The main reason I started tinkering with the happ hack is that my guests treat the little plastic MOMO wheel like a real steering wheel, lifting themselves out of the cab with it and trying to turn it past its limits. 

[Brian74]

I have Daytona Usa 2 , I also have a G-25 . The wheel on my daytona 2 is set at 80%. It will just about snap your wrists. Do I need it that high, probably not. When the kids play I turn it down. The ffb on the G-25 is pretty good. If I turn it up, it too will spin out of my hand. I am still trying to decided if Im going to mame my cab. The idea of playing more then one game is pushing me to do it. I have seen a guy mount his wheel behind the stock dash. There was another guy that used a couple of these http://compare.ebay.com/like/190559005951?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar to extend his column. I then could mount the rest of the steering assembly farther inside the cab. I will use the G-25 peddles, reverse and  hang them like gbeef did. Now the shifter is another story. I would like to mod the the G-25 shifter to fit in the stock mount on my cab. I would hack the rest of the buttons to the vr buttons and undermount the rest under the wheel.

[Impact93]

Jeez Gbeef.

That's one hell of a cab you built.

Kudos man. 

I have a SF.Rush cab. I'm trying to think of what kind of side art to put on it.

Where do you guys all buy / customize your side art?

Also, I've been posting this topIc on a few different forums and someone posted the hook ups that I'll need to keep my CRT in my cab.  I know I can go LCD but this CRT is big and still in awesome condition.

[RamjetR]

I have a G25 on my triple screen/fps rig and G27's in my 2 x Touring Car DX cabinets and 1 x Indy 500 DX cabinet. More than happy with the FFB.

FFB from my perception is dependent on the particular games support for it. Some PC games do a better job than others. There is no magic setting for every games sweet spot. That said, you'll find a setting close to default which will be near enough and you won't notice it once your in a game and inserted that first coin.

MAME/M2/M3 have some tweaking to enable it, but by large I've been to involved with the game to worry about the strength of FFB.

Only problems I've had with my G's are the loss of centering occasionally when the wheel is moved extremely fast (400kph in a Bugatti into a tunnel with oncoming traffic can make you do that! Gotta love NFS Hot Pursuit!). It doesn't do it every time, but it's a well documented issue with the Logitech "G2X" wheels, to which a DIY fix is to reglue the rotation sensor to stop it occasionally slipping on the motor shaft when it gets warmed up.

That ECCI looks amazing! Gawd, I wish I could justify spending the cash on one of those. But my racing fetish is still rather casual to lay down that kind of money.

Budget is your only limit my friend.

[Impact93]

Ok, so the build summary looks like this

-Keeping SFS: Rush cab in tact

-Keeping the Rush gas,break and clutch pedal in place, Changing the pots once i get whatever wheel and pedal set up i get. I want to get a Fanatec Wheel so that i can play all 3 major video game systems but i MIGHT have to imploy a stop gap measure to get this show on the road and allow myself to save up some funds.  Birthday is in June so maybe then i can convince the wife that i need a $400 wheel set up.

-Keeping the monitor.  Yes LCD will look better on realistic games but i really only play arcade racers such as Hydro Thunder, Rush, Daytona
The monitor is a NT-27E 50-60Hz Medium resolution monitor  so it should handle itself pretty well anyway.


Questions that i still have

-1- How can i hook up that NT-27E to an Xbox360?  I don't know what product i need to hook them up NOR do i know the process of hooking it up once i have said product.... This makes doing a google search a bit frustrating.  I have found some forum comments and topics on this subject but have yet to find anyone with a concrete answer.

I appreciate the whole LCD argument but being as i want to keep the RUSH cabinet in its general structural condition, including screen size, that pretty much leaves me with using the current tube that is in it or buying a CRT that is 27 inches and re,fitting it into the cab.  Shouldnt the medium res tube that is currently in it do a better job? Or would i be wiser to find some kinda 27 inch modern CRT?


-2- Keeping the original rush pedals is just a matter of changing the pots right?  and thats a fairly simple process from what i can see.  I see no reason to try and mount any other pedals as the rush pedals seem to have good pressure and placement... though the clutch is impossible to use as far as how the seat is set up.  well... maybe if you were 6 foot and thin as a rake you could use the clutch properly.  My solution.. I'm considering hacking out the coin box, it wont be used and it would allow for quite a bit more leg room.


-3-Deciding on a steering wheel.  I'm highly considering starting with a regular xbox360 wheel.  Yes yes, this is isnt a good choice for the long run but it WOULD allow me to rough out my wood work as far as mounting a race wheel goes. It would also allow me to play xbox360 games with force feedback and with a PC connector, allow me to play PC games without force feedback, but at LEAST i would be able to get things set up and roughed out.

The other option is the Thrustmaster Italia but that has NO force feedback built in for anything, the only strong point is that i can buy one NEW in the box. If i get a microsoft wheel it will be used. 

In either case, i plan on running wires from the RUSH's original button layout and jumping them to some of the buttons on the xbox wheel. The rush cab has 6 buttons and a 4 speed shifter that can be sucessfuly converted to a D pad.

the ideal situation is the Fanatec Forza wheel with the six speed shifter...but that will probably have to wait.


-4- Side art, T molding and other assorted visual touches.   Where would i go to get NEW side art for this arcade cab?  I'm keeping the structure the same so the measurements for a SFS-Rush cabinet i'm sure is readily available online.  Is there a place that i can go or someone i can talk to if i want custom art work?

best place to get T molding?  I know if i search T mold i will find tons of stuff but anyone have a GO TO place?

button art? the current rush cabinet has buttons that say *Abort *View 1 *View2 *View3  i'd like to change that.



Thanks for reading and all the ideas and help guys.

-Jon

[Impact93]

       

Seems like keeping my current Monitor is the worst idea of them all...  I can either buy a bunch of stuff to KIND OF make my monitor work with an OK picture for SOME systems..

I can drop $300 on a tri-sync

I can get an LCD that supports everything including PC via DVI but makes it so i have to highly modify my cab.

or i can get a CRT...which is kinda.... Ok as far as picture goes but is technically easiest to set up.

wow, so basically i bought a wood frame with a crappy green plastic seat for $200 cuz i have to throw basically EVERYTHING off of this machine in order to go the emulation route.

speaking of... is the best place to sell arcade components Ebay?