SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2

[retronerd]

Hi Calamity,

Thanks for the reply!  Is there any step by step guide? i didnt get it? for example in original mame you can run a program called Avres and it generates resolutions for each game and you can edit them individually.  I want to run the games on their native resolution.

About my sony 29 trinitron i understand i have to edit in service menu but the problem was the bottom i cant get the image straight there....

[Calamity]

Thanks for the reply!  Is there any step by step guide? i didnt get it? for example in original mame you can run a program called Avres and it generates resolutions for each game and you can edit them individually.  I want to run the games on their native resolution.

- AVres doesn't generate resolutions, it only generates .ini files.
- VMMaker can generate resolutions and .ini files at the same time.

However, if you're going to use GroovyMAME, you don't need .ini files, as I said, its AUTOMATIC. As long as you have the resolutions available: if you installed the driver they should be there, however, use VMMaker to regenerate the video modes if you like. Edit vmmaker.ini and check the options. But don't create ini files if you're going to use GroovyMAME. You only need ini files for normal MAME builds.

[retronerd]

-AVres i meant ini files!

I have install the hacked drivers for my Ati Radeon HD 4350.

shall i have Arcade_OSD and VMMaker in the same folder as Groovymame?

Shall i make an XML for groovy mame? How do i make a custom resolution for ex Mortal kombat?
Whrre do i change settings in groovymame? ex ddrav...


Can i just use Arcade_OSD and VMMaker to make resolutions and use it in original mame?

[Paradroid]

Slow down retronerd! Let's take this one step at a time. That way we can make sure everything is understood and works properly...

Calamity has given you some good info. Spend a few moments to digest that before jumping ahead.

Here are the basic steps for arcade perfection using GroovyMAME:

1. Uninstall Soft-15kHz (you won't need this anymore).
2. Install the custom ATI driver (you've done this already).
3. Edit your vmaker .ini file to point to your MAME .exe file. Set it to generate an MAME XML the first time you run. Leave the monitor type as "CUSTOM".
4. Run vmaker and then restart your computer.
5. Launch Arcade_OSD. You should now see a HUGE list of video modes. Far more than with Soft-15kHz.
6. Place GroovyMAME.exe (or similarly named) in your MAME folder. Backup your old mame.ini and then generate a new one with GroovyMAME.
7. Launch GroovyMAME and choose a game to play...

If all the steps were followed correctly, you'll now be playing your favourite (15k) game at native resolution AND refresh rate on your Sony SCART television. No need to make a custom resolution for Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter or Pulirula... GroovyMAME and vmaker do all the the work for you!

As Calamity said, if things aren't perfect already, you can work at discovering the upper and lower ranges of your monitor and create custom "monitor_spec" definitions to help with sizing and centring. If you re-read this thread right from the start you'll pick up most of the steps involved.

In summary, GroovyMAME, vmaker and Arcade_OSD are a suite of tools that work together. You don't need Soft-15kHz and should run the GroovyMAME build instead of regular MAME if you want CRT nirvana.

[retronerd]

Paradroid, I did a fresh install of Windows XP 32 and installed the crt_emudriver_9.3_1.2a_xp32_multisync drivers for my Radeon HD 4350.

When i connect my Computer to my TV i got this



Is this drivers related or it is my VGA_scartcable?

[Calamity]

Hi retronerd,

I'm afraid that's a 31 KHz signal. Probably the drivers didn't get installed properly. This may happen with fresh Windows installations which sometimes contain newer versions of the ATI driver that get messed with the ones we install. Try starting in safe mode, running CatUninstall to remove any ATI software and reinstalling CRT_Emudriver.

[Paradroid]

Calamity, one clarifying question: after installing the CRT_emu drivers, should retronerd select 640×480 as the desktop before restarting? Or, will your drivers set the desktop to that by default after restarting?

Also, retronerd, it can be handy to have a standard computer monitor close by (I have an old 15" Samsung LCD for the purpose) for the times you get your display out of sync like this. That way you can see what you're doing to change your settings.

[Calamity]

Calamity, one clarifying question: after installing the CRT_emu drivers, should retronerd select 640×480 as the desktop before restarting? Or, will your drivers set the desktop to that by default after restarting?

Yes, that might be the issue indeed. If the previous desktop resolution was 800x600, Windows will probably try to select that one even after installing the driver, that's why it's a good idea to select 640x480 before restarting, as this one resolution will always be present as 15 KHz.

[retronerd]

Hello again! I dont have an option to choose 640x480 in windows i can only choose that resolution thru qyickres.

If i boot the pc change to 640x480 and change monitor to my Sony trinitron i got a good picture. so now is almost everything working. the dilemma is that i have to switch monitor al the time. i havent playing around with groovymame yet. 

[retronerd]

Im testing Groovymame right now! semms that some games doesnt fit to well? as you can see some games works perfect but, games like sf2, mk and strider doesnt fit the screen?

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/7590/strider.jpg
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/8099/94940739.jpg
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/6356/cimg1054t.jpg
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/661/cimg1053f.jpg
http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/7499/cimg1043s.jpg
http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/2940/cimg1045.jpg
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/6232/cimg1046n.jpg
http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/2482/cimg1052h.jpg
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/4783/cimg1050t.jpg
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/1914/cimg1048.jpg

[lettuce]

Some of those pics towards the bottom of that list has the best convergence i have seen on a Sony TV, the display is dead square impressive!. For the games which dont fill the screen try going into the mame UI menu (tab) and select 'Video Options' at the top of that menu there is...

Upright Artwork
Standard (4:3)
Pixel Aspect (16:15)
Cocktail

try selecting 'Standard (4:3)' and see if that helps

[Calamity]

Hi retronerd,

Did you create a fresh mame.ini before testing GroovyMAME?
Attach a log of mk here, like this:

groovymame.exe mk -v -md 4 >mk2.txt

... that will show me what your current settings are and provide a solution.

[retronerd]

Yes i made a new xml and ini before first launch of groovymame.

[Calamity]

Hi retronerd, thanks for the logs.

Have a look at them, they're all from mk, I'm afraid.

I've seen that you're using an old GroovyMAME version, please test one of the newer ones: http://mario.groovy.org/GroovyMame/WindowsATIDrivers/

Anyway, this is what the logs say:

SwitchRes: Found 75 custom of 104 active modelines.

There should be 120 modes there. One of the missing ones happens to be 400x256, the one required by mk. This could be due to booting the computer with a PC monitor attached. Make sure only the TV is attached on boot.

[Paradroid]

Damn! Those pictures look great! Sonys really pump out a beautiful image. Nice going!

[retronerd]

Hello again! I reinstalled the drivers again! dont know why the drivers is not working properly?

i upload the ini files again...

[Calamity]

Hi retronerd.

You have two different problems going on there:

- All 256p and 512i modes are missing. As I said, this is probably because you're booting with a PC monitor attached (please confirm). DON'T DO THAT: Windows will filter many necessary video modes thinking they're not compatible with your PC monitor EDID! Instead, boot the computer with the TV attached the correct output: DVI. Use a DVI-VGA adapter.

- MAME seems to be using a weird aspect ratio for sf2 / strider, even if the right video mode is selected. Please attach your mame.ini here, so I can have a look. Also, try enabling/disabling the -keepaspect option.

[retronerd]

Hello again!

I did as you sad, and was running VMMaker with computer conected to my sony crt! and reeboted. Now i have 400x256 resolution.
Mortal kombat fills the entire screen and more, much overscan. Can i adjust that thru Arcade_osd or is the only option Service menu on my TV?

Everythings seems to work when my computer in connected to my crt but when connected to my lcd the screens turns black some times and the computer even reebots. is that normal.

Whats the advantage with groovymame exept that you dont need to manually select the resolution for each game?

http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/3473/cimg1082z.jpg
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/3168/cimg1080j.jpg
http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/9285/cimg1079v.jpg
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/2403/cimg1067j.jpg
http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/6136/cimg1075l.jpg
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/1171/cimg1072e.jpg
http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/8177/cimg1071v.jpg
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/3112/cimg1058n.jpg
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/5337/cimg1059me.jpg
http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/3715/cimg1057yh.jpg

[lettuce]

Damn!, did you alter the screen size or position at all for each game in the pics you posted above via the TV service menu at all, if not that is almost perfect in that you getting an almost perfect fit

[Paradroid]

retronerd, that's all looking very good indeed! The focus is excellent on your TV. Seems like a great unit!

The advantages of GroovyMAME over the official MAME build are obvious once you fully comprehend what it's able to achieve. As I said earlier, GroovyMAME allows you to recreate the original resolution and refresh rate for each game. If you're still not sure why this is such a wonderful thing, try switching back and forth between GroovyMAME and vanilla MAME. Look at some games that feature smooth scrolling. An obvious one for me was Blazing Star. With normal MAME, the scrolling jumps a frame here and there. This is especially easy to see in the Stage 2 background. With GroovyMAME, the scrolling is PERFECT. The effect is stunning! Same in Mortal Kombat when the high score table scrolls down the screen. Another example is the vertical scrolling between levels in Snow Bros. This jerks badly in regular MAME.

Compare those sort of examples and you'll be convinced!

[maiki]

But by using Windows do you really think you are running a smooth environment (really smooth scrolling, no interruptions, 1003 proper video timing?). I remember well that Andrea Mazzoleni was warning against using ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- like Windows to run Advance MAME properly. Yes, in good old days we used to run Advance MAME and DOS, ring 0. That's the way to go. You people are really boring me with all your Windows topics.

[Calamity]

But by using Windows do you really think you are running a smooth environment (really smooth scrolling, no interruptions, 1003 proper video timing?). I remember well that Andrea Mazzoleni was warning against using ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- like Windows to run Advance MAME properly. Yes, in good old days we used to run Advance MAME and DOS, ring 0. That's the way to go. You people are really boring me with all your Windows topics.

Yeah it's a shame that AdvanceMAME was discontinued, seriously. You know, GroovyMAME is smooth because all the timings are based on the GPU clock, which is in fact external to the Windows OS, CPU's ring 0/3, etc.

BTW the purpose of this subforum is not to entertain you.

[Paradroid]

Surprised maiki was even reading this thread considering "scart" is in the title!

Sounds like AdvanceMAME was quite something... However, the nice thing about Windows is that all my fancy gadgets work (e.g. joysticks, high-end audio interfaces, mice, keyboards, etc.) and you can run MAME at 64-bit. I guess you can do most of this stuff with Linux these days too but good luck getting all this cool stuff to work with DOS!

Of course, the DOS approach sounds great in theory but those days are over, surely?

[Calamity]

I'm one of the guys who would still be using DOS for emulation if hardware support was guaranteed. For a project of mine back in the 90's, I spent months struggling to get my SoundBlaster DOS code work in newer cards, until I made my mind to move the whole code to Win32 and never look back, I learnt the lesson. Linux is our hope, but in terms of hardware support it tends to suck too - I hate to say this -.

So this is how I see it, if you put these variables into the equation:

- amount of available emulators
- hardware support
- performance
- CRT support (15 KHz)

... You reach an optimum for this combination: Windows XP-64, ATI HD4xxx

... If you remove the variety of emulators from the equation - just focus on MAME -, and you know your hardware is supported, then the optimum is Linux (i.e. GroovyArcade), with the additional benefit that newer ATI cards are supported.

[Paradroid]

You reach an optimum for this combination: Windows XP-64, ATI HD4xxx

Great info for the upcoming GroovyMAME FAQ!

Nice, neat summary of where things are at.

[retronerd]

Thanks for all help so far

When i run mk, mk2 or mk3 the game fills up the whole screen, but in the bottom i miss 1 half cm or something cant fix it from service menu?

Is that so for everyone or can i calibrate it from Arcade_OSD?

some explanation how Arcade_OSD works were estimated.

another problem why doesnt Hyperspin works with emu drivers?

[Calamity]

Hi retronerd,

If you read the previous pages in this thread you'll probably see many of your doubts being solved in a practical case.

As for the HS issue, yes it's a well known bug, too many modelines in the system and HS won't start. You can solve it by either trimming your mode list or by using "magic resolutions". Search this forum and you'll find plenty of information on this.

[retronerd]

Im sorry but i need some help here cant figure it out?

[Paradroid]

Hey chaps...

I just joined the Trinitron club today.

My personal Sony is pretty serious piece of electronic engineering. I have no idea of it's capabilities yet (monitor_specs wise) but the initial images and under-the-hood inspection are extremely promising. Crazy luck that I even found this unit...

Anyway, have a gawk right here.

I think I'm officially going "analogue controlled only" after this awesome discovery.

[apfelanni]

speaker out per din plug and mf date 85-89 ? .. oha .. the tubeshielding? and amount of potis look like those in the sony pvm broadcasting monitors , analog dinosaurs . the trinisticker makes me laugh .. maybe grandma thought its displayed like a channel symbol and never found the button on the remote to deactivate it .

[Calamity]

Nice score Paradroid! Will be interesting seeing how this thing performs, specially how the Trinitron tube compares the others.

[lettuce]

Hey chaps...

I just joined the Trinitron club today.

My personal Sony is pretty serious piece of electronic engineering. I have no idea of it's capabilities yet (monitor_specs wise) but the initial images and under-the-hood inspection are extremely promising. Crazy luck that I even found this unit...

Anyway, have a gawk right here.

I think I'm officially going "analogue controlled only" after this awesome discovery.

Nice find my man! Once you have a Trinitron you'll never be able to go back, what model number is it?. I think im going to try and get hold of a older Trinitron with analogue pots, as going through the service menu all the time is a paint and having the pots mounted on the outside of the case would make life alot easier.

Apfelanni, any ideas when abouts Trinitron's stopped having analog pots??

[Paradroid]

Thanks guys!

maybe grandma thought its displayed like a channel symbol and never found the button on the remote to deactivate it .

Probably not that far from the truth! Either that or she wanted to preserve the resale value...

Will be interesting seeing how this thing performs, specially how the Trinitron tube compares the others.

Well, the Trinitrons are certainly VERY different! I actually got my baby PVMs going yesterday too. The first thing I noticed was how different the curvature of the screen is compared with my good ol' Philips EAK tubes. Not sure what I prefer yet but the focus is definitely superior on the Sony. I'm still a little vague on what determines good focus: age of tube, condition or flyback, or both?

what model number is it?

Sony KV-C27 (chassis type is AE-1). There's an encyclopaedia written on this thing here. Also, the Service Manual lists other models with the same chassis.

having the pots mounted on the outside of the case would make life alot easier.

That's what I'll be doing, in time. The case is actually made of wood!

[lettuce]

Well i found 3 Trintron's on eBay within a few miles of me all different models.....im going to get my ball cut off

[princess prin prin]

Sony AE1 chassis based TVs (ca. 87-91) are the best of best. Later models, especially Vega/FD Trinitrons just can't compare as the picture, albeit good, doesn't have the old style arcade monitor feel that AE1 TVs have. The chassis is very modular, you have separate PCBs for AC filtering, teletext, croma, stereo, TV tuner, headphones. I use mine as arcade monitors (in a cab) and I've removed all the unnecessary PCBs.
The flyback only has the focus pot on it, the screen pot is on the neckboard. The red box on the anode lead is only present on the KV-C27, the KV-C25 doesn't have it.

[Paradroid]

Sony AE1 chassis based TVs (ca. 87-91) are the best of best.

Yay!

The chassis is very modular, you have separate PCBs for AC filtering, teletext, croma, stereo, TV tuner, headphones. I use mine as arcade monitors (in a cab) and I've removed all the unnecessary PCBs.

Neat! This doesn't cause any problems? I may have to ask you more about this in the future...

The flyback only has the focus pot on it, the screen pot is on the neckboard. The red box on the anode lead is only present on the KV-C27, the KV-C25 doesn't have it.

Right. Figured as much.

Thanks for the info!

[lettuce]

So would all AE1 chassis being pot based for display options?

I maybe well off here but i think an easy way to tell if a Sony Trinitron TV would have pots rather than an OSD for display option is the Trinitron logo on the TV itself!. Ive notice that older set and the one Paradroid has the Trinitron logo has the RGB logo next to 'Trinitron', my Sony downstairs doesnt have this and just has 'Trinitron'. I wondering if this would be a good way to tell if your getting a set with pots!??

[retronerd]

can anyone help me to calibrate modelines so ex mortal kombat and other games fit?

[Paradroid]

So would all AE1 chassis being pot based for display options?

I'd be surprised if they weren't! In all the TVs I've opened up (lots by now), if it says e.g. Loewe E3000 chassis, the mainboard looks exactly the same regardless of the cosmetic appearance from the outside. Same with Grundig/Siemens/Blaupunkt.

I maybe well off here but i think an easy way to tell if a Sony Trinitron TV would have pots rather than an OSD for display option is the Trinitron logo on the TV itself!

Could point us in the right direction but the foolproof way is to cross reference the model number with the chassis type. If I continue to be impressed by this AE-1 then I reckon I might consider compiling a list of Sonys with desirable chassis types. apfelanni made a long list of models with the FE-1 chassis, can't see why we couldn't do the same for some of the older types. Perhaps apfelanni already has a list... he's a mysterious man, I wouldn't put it past him.

There are so many things to comment on about this AE-1 chassis! The build quality is completely over the top. Heat sinks all over the place. Shielding everywhere. Closer to military spec than consumer spec. No wonder it's so damn heavy! Later TVs aren't built like this...

Lucky for me, the original owner must of been a neat freak: no grimy stuff inside, just fine layers of dust. I reckon it'll blow right off once I fire up the air compressor. Just gotta be careful to keep those magnetic strips in place.

[lettuce]

Lucky for me, the original owner must of been a neat freak: no grimy stuff inside, just fine layers of dust. I reckon it'll blow right off once I fire up the air compressor. Just gotta be careful to keep those magnetic strips in place.

Yeah i bet it hasnt hardly had any use, otherwise the 'Its a Sony' sticker still wouldnt be in place, the heat from the screen would of lifted that off years ago otherwise!!!, lucky bugger!!

EDIT: Could be a start.......

http://english.electronica-pt.com/electronics-search.php?find=AE1%20%28SCC-B14X