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Author Topic: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2  (Read 29235 times)

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lettuce

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SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« on: December 17, 2011, 09:44:46 am »
Ok like Paradroid's thread i have got 2 PAL Scart CRT TV's, Sharp 21HT15H & Bush RF2185NTXSIL/A, the bush uses a beko chassis not sure on the sharp.

Im using windows xp 64bit and have a ATI x600 card, i have done a freshing install of windows and installed the CRT_Emudriver 6.5 drivers.

I Have edited the VMMaker.ini file and only changed the, "Mame.exe" path, "Mame.ini" path, "VerticalAspect" to 4:3 and "MonitorType" to Custom.

I have run VMMaker.exe and it has generated 120 mode line and missed none.

Now this is where i need some guidance, i havent touched the MAME ini file yet what settings do i need to change in that for my setup?, also should the "MonitorType" in the VMMAker.ini file be set to something else other than custom?

I have noticed that the info screen when loading a rom seems compressed/shrunk as its not easy to read, is grooymame doing something it should?, also i have a fair bit of over scan going on aswell, this is using the Sharp TV at the moment. I have attached the debug file.

Also have noticed that while the Sharp TV displays windows in 640x480 fine, the BUSH TV however doesnt..........



After a while the screen will start scrolling diagionally, but when switching to a mame rom the display is fine!. Is this to do with the  CRT_Emudriver 6.5 drivers and some resolutuions that VMMaker as made or is it the scart cable?

« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 09:59:43 am by lettuce »

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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2011, 10:24:04 am »
Now this is where i need some guidance, i havent touched the MAME ini file yet what settings do i need to change in that for my setup?, also should the "MonitorType" in the VMMAker.ini file be set to something else other than custom?

In mame.ini, you can just leave the monitor options as cga, and add this line:

monitor_specs_0 15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448

... so you'll have the same settings in mame.ini and vmmaker.ini (that's the default "CUSTOM" line defined)

I have noticed that the info screen when loading a rom seems compressed/shrunk as its not easy to read, is grooymame doing something it should?, also i have a fair bit of over scan going on aswell, this is using the Sharp TV at the moment. I have attached the debug file.

Try those resolutions individually in Arcade_OSD to check the geometry. You can also find your right horizontal geometry values there to remove overscan.

Quote
Also have noticed that while the Sharp TV displays windows in 640x480 fine, the BUSH TV however doesnt..........



After a while the screen will start scrolling diagionally, but when switching to a mame rom the display is fine!. Is this to do with the  CRT_Emudriver 6.5 drivers and some resolutuions that VMMaker as made or is it the scart cable?


That looks like a horizontal frequency out of range issue, probably that TV requires extrictly either PAL or NTSC frequencies. Open Modeline.txt and grab the modeline corresponding to 640x480@60, paste it here so we can confirm that.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

lettuce

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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2011, 11:05:34 am »
In mame.ini, you can just leave the monitor options as cga, and add this line:

monitor_specs_0 15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448

... so you'll have the same settings in mame.ini and vmmaker.ini (that's the default "CUSTOM" line defined)

So i should leave "MonitorType" in VMMaker as Custom then and just change it to cga in the mame ini file?

Do i also need to add that monitor_specs_0 line to the VMMaker.ini file aswell?

Try those resolutions individually in Arcade_OSD to check the geometry. You can also find your right horizontal geometry values there to remove overscan.

Ok i have loaded up Arcade_OSD, have selected the screen res 384x224 then press enter to view fullscreen but Arcade_OSD crashes any ideas why this is?

That looks like a horizontal frequency out of range issue, probably that TV requires extrictly either PAL or NTSC frequencies. Open Modeline.txt and grab the modeline corresponding to 640x480@60, paste it here so we can confirm that.

have attached my whole modeline.txt file, have noticed that it doesnt have an 800x600 screen res and jumps from 792x592 to 1280x240 why is this. As if i use quickres tool 800x600 is in the list but if i select it i lose singal on my TV, i though CRT Tv's could do up to 1024x768 interlaced?, can TV's do 800x600 progressivly or is that res interlaced aswell usually?

Have noticed that windows has selected the TV as default monitor but it has selected the refresh rate a 200Hz, should this be left at 200hz or shouldi change it to 60hz??
« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 11:27:17 am by lettuce »

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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2011, 02:54:06 pm »
Ok like Paradroid's thread i have got 2 PAL Scart CRT TV's, Sharp 21HT15H & Bush RF2185NTXSIL/A

Fun times ahead! ;D Perhaps a little frustration along the way too… ;)

I have noticed that the info screen when loading a rom seems compressed/shrunk as its not easy to read, is grooymame doing something it should?

Remember that once you launch a game in MAME, the display will switch to the game's native resolution. Since some of these resolutions will be very low, the MAME UI text is gonna look pretty rough a lot of the times. The fonts look nice at 640×480 but pretty nasty at 320×240. That's normal. Also, when a game exits to the MAME menu, you'll still be in the resolution from the game you just played.

, also i have a fair bit of over scan going on aswell, this is using the Sharp TV at the moment. I have attached the debug file.

You're going to need to Google for the service manuals for your TVs. Sometimes these are easy to find, sometimes not. There are some amazing resources out there, huge repositories of info on all types and brands of TVs. Once you have a PDF of the service manual, you'll need to follow the steps to get into the Service Menu. Each manufacturer does this in a slightly different way e.g. you could navigate the Loewe Service Menus without consulting the manual but for the Sony KV-HR32M31 that I had, it was extremely complex and hard to understand.

You'll need to look for the parameters with names such as "Height" or "V-Amp", "Width" or "H-Amp", etc. Those settings will correct your underscan/overscan. Then, you'll usually have some parameters that adjust the shape of the image. If your TV was well designed and still in good condition, you should be able to get the image looking very close to PERFECT if you have the patience. It'll make you realise how lazy some of those arcade game technicians were back in the day. ;)

Oh, if you get to the Service Menu, make sure you right down ALL the current settings before you start experimenting. Trust me, it'll save you some heart ache later on. ;)
My MAME/SCART/CRT blog: SCART Hunter

lettuce

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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2011, 03:01:14 pm »
Cheers Paradroid, have tried looking for the service code of the Bush, but cant find one anywhere :(. With adding the modeline:

monitor_specs_0 15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448

to the MAME.ini file then the display is more or less perfect with no over scan now, but the top and bottom of the screen has a very slight boarder now, what parts of the monitor_spec line control the vertical stretch?


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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2011, 05:12:09 pm »
Quote
So i should leave "MonitorType" in VMMaker as Custom then and just change it to cga in the mame ini file?

Do i also need to add that monitor_specs_0 line to the VMMaker.ini file aswell?

In your case it's enough to add it to mame.ini

Quote
Ok i have loaded up Arcade_OSD, have selected the screen res 384x224 then press enter to view fullscreen but Arcade_OSD crashes any ideas why this is?

 :badmood: I need to figure out why this silly program still crashes in some systems...

Quote
have attached my whole modeline.txt file, have noticed that it doesnt have an 800x600 screen res and jumps from 792x592 to 1280x240 why is this. As if i use quickres tool 800x600 is in the list but if i select it i lose singal on my TV, i though CRT Tv's could do up to 1024x768 interlaced?, can TV's do 800x600 progressivly or is that res interlaced aswell usually?

800x600 is not created as it falls out the defined monitor specs (=usual specs for CRT TVs). See how 792i is only possible because it's 50Hz. Don't use the resolutions labelled as 'native', they are created by the driver, that 800x600 progressive resolution you're testing might easily be 38 kHz (!!).

Quote
Have noticed that windows has selected the TV as default monitor but it has selected the refresh rate a 200Hz, should this be left at 200hz or shouldi change it to 60hz??

Yep, just ignore that.

I'd tell you to use Arcade_OSD in order to set the resolution for your desktop, provided it didn't crash.

to the MAME.ini file then the display is more or less perfect with no over scan now, but the top and bottom of the screen has a very slight boarder now, what parts of the monitor_spec line control the vertical stretch?

Sounds good.

There's no way of correcting vertical amplitude by software, that's a limitation of CRT technology. You'll need to access your service menu in order to adjust that.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

lettuce

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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2011, 06:54:44 pm »
Yep, just ignore that.

I'd tell you to use Arcade_OSD in order to set the resolution for your desktop, provided it didn't crash.

Yeah just seems to crash all the time so can set it up with Arcade_OSD :(

Sounds good.

There's no way of correcting vertical amplitude by software, that's a limitation of CRT technology. You'll need to access your service menu in order to adjust that.

Oh ok, i thought it would be possible as when i added the monitor_specs line (monitor_specs_0 15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448) to the mame.ini file to got reed of the overscan i originally had at the top and bottom of the screen, i though it might be possible to have tweaked one of the values to add just a slight over scan?

So i dont need to change any other settings in the mame.ini file other than the monitor type 'CGA'?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 07:08:45 pm by lettuce »

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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2011, 07:03:57 pm »
So i dont need to change any other settings in the mame.ini file other than the monitor type 'CGA'?

Just that and the monitor_specs line.

You can remove horizontal overscan with monitor_specs line, but not vertical.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

lettuce

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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2011, 07:06:49 pm »
So i dont need to change any other settings in the mame.ini file other than the monitor type 'CGA'?

Just that and the monitor_specs line.

You can remove horizontal overscan with monitor_specs line, but not vertical.

Ok thanks.

Regarding the Bush TV not display a correct picture, this has now been sorted by changing the refresh rate of windows from the 200hz it was set at to 60hz. Strange that the Sharp TV didnt have a problem displaying a picture in windows at the 200hz but the Bush did.

Also i have noticed that the TV has a sort of shimmering effect to it, now when i built a cab years ago that had a scart tv in i was using a ArcadeVGA card from Ultimarc and had the shame shimmering effect, but in install the TriSync config utility that it on the ultimarc sit sorted this out. Would it be safe to use this in conjuction with the CRT_Emudriver 6.5 drivers to see if it helps?

Have you seen the arcadeperfect program on the ultimarc site,

http://www.ultimarc.com/arcadeperfect.html

would this help with the vertical scan?

Calamity

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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2011, 07:16:44 pm »
If I get you right the shimmering effect is due to interlacing, and you can't remove it. Just use progressive modes for your games. The tri-sync utility won't help as your TV is std-res, apart from the fact that it could mess with the driver's registry.

The Arcadeperfect utility only works with the AVGA 3000 and will be tied to the same limitations because these are inherent to CRT technology.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

lettuce

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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2011, 07:41:53 pm »
If I get you right the shimmering effect is due to interlacing, and you can't remove it. Just use progressive modes for your games. The tri-sync utility won't help as your TV is std-res, apart from the fact that it could mess with the driver's registry.

The Arcadeperfect utility only works with the AVGA 3000 and will be tied to the same limitations because these are inherent to CRT technology.

The 'shimmering' effect is only noticeable when in windows, i dont get this when playing games.

It looks like a spoke too soon when saying i thought i had the Bush TV sorted out, it would seem that i get the same garbled screen when i try and play any vertical games (Donkey Kong, Don Donpatchi, raiden) Any ideas why this is?

So the monitor specs line (15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448) is just a general setting for TV's, i cant find a line that is specific to my Sharp or Bush TV??
« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 07:43:26 pm by lettuce »

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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2011, 01:21:17 pm »
The 'shimmering' effect is only noticeable when in windows, i dont get this when playing games.

Yes, then it's the interlace effect, completely normal.

It looks like a spoke too soon when saying i thought i had the Bush TV sorted out, it would seem that i get the same garbled screen when i try and play any vertical games (Donkey Kong, Don Donpatchi, raiden) Any ideas why this is?

I thought the problem with the Bush TV was with interlaced modes but it may be related to custom refresh rates. Try limiting the lower refresh rate with this line:

monitor specs0  15625-16200, 58.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448

There's no specific settings for your TV yet, you're the first one to test!
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

lettuce

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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2011, 01:54:35 pm »
Cheers, i shall try that modeline. Well i was able to get a display in windows on the BUSH TV when i changed the windows refresh rate from 200Hz to 60Hz, but when i loaded a few vertical games i had the same display problems as pictured above. I have also noticed that mame must be doing something inbetween the start of the rom loading and the 'nag' screen as i can see this same distorted display effect on the black screen that comes up before the nag screen, but when the nag screen displays the display is fine. Can can upload a video to better explain it if you woudl like!?

This is all on the BUSH TV by the way, the Sharp TV seems as good as gold atm, apart from the very slight underscan on the vertical shift

Can you explain to me what each section of the modeline is regarding to, i know now that the 2nd section of the modeline is lowest and highest refresh rate for the display (is this vertical or horizontal?), but what are the other 11 sections?

lettuce

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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2011, 05:28:53 pm »
Ok i tried the revised modeline and it didnt seem to solve the problem :(. Have noticed i get the same problem when booting the PC and only gets a picture when the windows XP loading screen appears, so im guessing whatever refresh rate the motherboard boot screen and dos screen are in this BUSH TV doesnt like also?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 05:37:59 pm by lettuce »

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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2011, 06:02:42 pm »
Try with this one:

monitor_specs0 15625-15800, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448

BTW:

Quote
; monitor_specs_0-6 = "HfreqMin-HfreqMax, VfreqMin,VfreqMax, HFrontPorch, HSyncPulse, HBackPorch, VfrontPorch, VSyncPulse, VBackPorch, HSyncPol, VSyncPol, ActiveLinesLimit, VirtualLinesLimit"
;
;    * HfreqMin-HfreqMax: Minimum and maximum horizontal frequency, in Hz. Defines the range of horizontal frequencies the monitor is capable to sync.
;       The higher the horizontal frequency, the higher the vertical resolution available for the same vertical refresh.
;       The higher the horizontal frequency, the higher the vertical refresh available for the same vertical resolution.
;       The higher the horizontal frequency, the lower the horizontal amplitude of active video (narrower picture).
;
;   * VFreqMin-VfreqMax: Minimum and maximum vertical frequency, in Hz, Defines the range of vertical frequencies the monitor is capable to sync.
;
;   * HFrontPorch, HSyncPulse, HBackPorch: Horizontal timing and geometry, values in µs
;
;   * VfrontPorch, VSyncPulse, VBackPorch: Vertical timing and geometry, values in ms
;
;   * HSyncPol,VSyncPol: polarities, not in use! defaults to negative.
;
;   * ActiveLinesLimit: Vertical resolutions until ActiveLinesLimit value included, are generated as progressive, regardless the possibility
;                           of obtaining the required vertical refresh value.
;
;   * VirtualLinesLimit: Vertical resolutions above ActiveLinesLimit and below VirtualLinesLimit are virtualized, that is, an interlaced resolution
;                            bigger that the native one is generated, with the right refresh, and "hardware stretch" is applied.
;                            Vertical resolutions above VirtulaLinesLimit are generated as interlaced, without any stretching.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 06:05:44 pm by Calamity »
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

lettuce

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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2011, 06:18:46 pm »
Ok ill give that a go tomorrow as its getting late now. Thanks for the on going support

lettuce

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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2011, 04:02:39 pm »
Ok that modeline stop the messed up display, but the game ive tried (Donkey Kong 3) is now displayed in a small box in the centre of the screen

EDIT: Also noticed that Dragon Breed (horizontal game) is also in a small screen
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 04:21:48 pm by lettuce »

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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2011, 04:30:53 pm »
logs please  ;D
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2011, 05:44:44 pm »
Ok, turned the PC back on to get the log files now both of the games display fullscreen!, not sure why they didnt before hand. Only thing is that they have a fair bit of overscan on the vertical :( espcially the vertical games


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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2011, 05:52:06 pm »
Probably you needed to restart in case you recalculated modelines with VMMaker.

Now... it seems the issue was with the HfreqMax value. So 16200 was to high for your TV. Anyway, try finding the highest value your TV is happy with, testing:

monitor_specs0 15625-15900, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448

... and so on. The highest that value, the closer you'll get to 60 Hz in many vertical games.

As for the vertical overscan, it's normal, as TVs are usually adjusted for less than 256. You'll need to access your service menu to fix that.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

lettuce

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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2011, 06:33:58 pm »
Ok will do, also noticed that the rotation of the screen was a bit off and wasnt straight along the bottom and top, can this be altered via modeline?

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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2011, 02:33:40 pm »
Ok will do, also noticed that the rotation of the screen was a bit off and wasnt straight along the bottom and top, can this be altered via modeline?

I'm afraid not, that's a harware issue.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

lettuce

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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2012, 09:33:54 am »
Just scored my first 25" Sony Triniton TV for the grand sum of 99p  :laugh2:

Ill post some results once i get it, its a dark grey case not the newer silver case so hopefully wont be doing any type of nusty processing in the background or have a digital chassis

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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2012, 04:21:33 pm »
Awesome! :) Looking forward to hearing about how it performs...
My MAME/SCART/CRT blog: SCART Hunter

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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2012, 02:52:08 pm »
Ok i got my Sony KV-25K5U yesterday, damn its heavy compared to the other 2 21" screens i have seeings this is only 4" bigger!, must be the Trinitron tube  ;D. This is the first Sony Trinitron screen i have ever had and i must say all the hype that surrounded the Trinitron screen is well deserved!!, the picture blows away both my Sharp and defo the Bush TV's which in itself is even more impressive when you consider that this Sony TV is older than both my other screens, i can tell this by the length of time it takes to get a display to appear once i have turned the Sony on, my other 2 TV's display a picture within about 2 seconds the Sony takes about 5-8....im guessing this is an indication of an older much used TV?? I dont get any of the flicker/shakeness that was present on my other 2 TV when viewing Windows, the picture is nice and solid  :cheers:.

Im using the following monitor specs line (in mame.ini)...

15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 3.500, 4.7000, 9.500, 0.064, 0.260, 1.200, 0, 0, 288, 448

I used Rolling Thunder to obtain the above modeline and using the nag screen white borders and editing the modeline until i could get the white borders fitting the Sony display as best as i could, the only negative thing i can say about the Sony's display so far is it could do with being ever so slightly rotated anti-clockwise as you can see from the following pics (The pics dont really do the Sony justice plus my cameras crap at taking pic of TV screens)

Rolling Thunder





Final Fight





Now when i loaded up R-Type the bottom of the display is competely cut off....





Now how do i go about getting R-type to fit my display, as im sure Calamity said that you cant decrease the screen vertically via monitor specs line, and it i do this via the service menu of the Sony (which i dont have atm) then games that do already fill the screen correctly will have a massive border at the bottom of the screen!?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 02:54:30 pm by lettuce »

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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2012, 03:06:54 pm »
Hi lettuce,

Nice to see you back in business. Try keeping this value as low as you can, before you start seeing problems at the top of the screen, like retrace diagonals:

15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 3.500, 4.7000, 9.500, 0.064, 0.260, 1.200, 0, 0, 288, 448

You can use Arcade_OSD with a 256 video mode to find the right values. You won't get the picture fit inside for 256 lines resolutions, but you need to get it vertically centered for all games. Using the service manual over and over is the only solution for vertical adjustment, that's a fact.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
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lettuce

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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2012, 03:26:04 pm »
So if i select the video mode 256x256, what am i aim for?, to get the test display to fill the whole TV screen? Is this for R-type and similar resolution games?? Using 256x256 in the veritcal geometry setting, if i change the 'V back porch' from '16' ln to '8ln' then the test screen fills the screen from right to left where as at '16 ln' it wasnt

So am i going about it all wrong in getting certain games to fill my display perfect??, instead of loading said game looking at the white borders then quiting the game editing 'monitor specs' line in mame.ini reloading said game again and rinse and repeat. Should i just leave the monitor specs line in mame.ini as default (dont edit it) and going through ever single (120) modelines in OSD arcade and adjusting to fit the screen that way??
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 03:42:56 pm by lettuce »

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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2012, 04:03:40 pm »
Actually rtype uses 384x256 but the relevant part is the vertical lines so any 256 lines mode should be fine for testing.

Quote
So am i going about it all wrong in getting certain games to fill my display perfect??

No, I didn't mean that. You still need to edit the monitor_specs lines in mame.ini to get things working.

But (this is the point nobody in the forum is getting yet) you can use Arcade_OSD to the find your values interacting with the screen instead of from a trial and error process. Then you write them down and copy then to the monitor_specs line. You don't need to edit all 120 modes, just one or two relevant ones until you find the good values.

Just ask whatever you need and I'll be helping.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
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 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2012, 04:29:59 pm »
So any game that has a res greater than 256 lines on the vertical will always have overscan? Is there a way i can 'trick' groovymame into display these game so that fit into my display without having to alter the vertical adjust through the TV service menu??

To be honest Calamity the OSD porgram confuses the hell out of me, i get that you can go into each video resolution and change the vertical and horizontal geometry value so it fits the screen, but other than that im at a complete lose.

So for example i have edited the values for the screen res that final fight and rolling thunder both use so it fits the screen as best it can...but what values do i have to write down for the monitor_specs line, and surely if ive only edited a few video resolutions how is this changing/altering the monitor_spec line within the mame.ini file?

So here some steps i have done,

1. selected video mode 288x224 (rolling thunder)
2. selected 'horizontal geometry'
3. altered the front porch and back porch so it fits the screen as best it can

then done the same as above for 384x224 (final fight), what do i need to do now then regarding the monitor_spec??

maybe a guide is in need for using Arcade_OSD correctly?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 04:36:10 pm by lettuce »

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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2012, 04:49:20 pm »
So any game that has a res greater than 256 lines on the vertical will always have overscan?

Sure.

Quote
Is there a way i can 'trick' groovymame into display these game so that fit into my display without having to alter the vertical adjust through the TV service menu??

Yes, you can change this value (active lines limit), so that anything above 256 will be interlaced + stretched

15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 3.500, 4.7000, 9.500, 0.064, 0.260, 1.200, 0, 0, 256, 448

Quote
but what values do i have to write down for the monitor_specs line, and surely if ive only edited a few video resolutions how is this changing/altering the monitor_spec line within the mame.ini file?

It's very easy, once you have a resolution centered, go both into horizontal and vertical geometry submenus. You'll see the values you need on the right of each line, so:

H Front porch
H Sync pulse
H Back porch

... correspond with these ones (same order):

15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 3.500, 4.7000, 9.500, 0.064, 0.260, 1.200, 0, 0, 256, 448

... same for vertical values:

15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 3.500, 4.7000, 9.500, 0.064, 0.260, 1.200, 0, 0, 256, 448

So the meaning of all this is not to center a particular resolution (that is overriden anyway by GroovyMAME).

What we do is to ensure that all the modelines recalculated from that monitor_specs line are similar to the one you just centered with Arcade_OSD (which values you've obtained).

Quote
maybe a guide is in need for using Arcade_OSD correctly?

Definitely, you'll probably have some news soon.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2012, 05:00:22 pm »
i must say all the hype that surrounded the Trinitron screen is well deserved!

Judging by your photos, I'd have to agree! Looks like it produces a most excellent image.

I'm looking for a Sony but it's tricky in Australia. There's a flood of Sony's on eBay but most only have yellow/red/white RCA connections as opposed to RGB SCART. I guess I'll have to get intimate with model numbers and ask the sellers to take photos of the back panels.

Anyway, congratulations! Nice find!

the only negative thing i can say about the Sony's display so far is it could do with being ever so slightly rotated anti-clockwise

Hmm, almost every TV I've tried has had this to a varying degree. I can tell because the very top line on the screens never lines up with the black screen mask PERFECTLY. Most of the TVs I've tried have Phillips tubes though. Interesting that Sony does it too, although, I'm sure this varying between actual production units rather model numbers.

i do this via the service menu of the Sony (which i dont have atm)

You'll need to become good friends with that Service Menu to play R-Type, et al. :) You'll probably need to use the remote control to navigate. Honestly, I'm surprised you've gotten as far as you have without messing about with Service Menus. Lots of the TVs I've tried need some full-on tweaking before the image starts to looks decent. Some of the Loewes I've tried have been horrendous before I've corrected the geometry.

It's a pain to have to adjust the settings in between games but it's a small price to pay for arcade perfect CRT gaming. :) Trust me, you'll get really quick at it.
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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2012, 05:06:21 pm »
So any game that has a res greater than 256 lines on the vertical will always have overscan?

Sure.

Quote
Is there a way i can 'trick' groovymame into display these game so that fit into my display without having to alter the vertical adjust through the TV service menu??

Yes, you can change this value (active lines limit), so that anything above 256 will be interlaced + stretched

15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 3.500, 4.7000, 9.500, 0.064, 0.260, 1.200, 0, 0, 256, 448

Quote
but what values do i have to write down for the monitor_specs line, and surely if ive only edited a few video resolutions how is this changing/altering the monitor_spec line within the mame.ini file?

It's very easy, once you have a resolution centered, go both into horizontal and vertical geometry submenus. You'll see the values you need on the right of each line, so:

H Front porch
H Sync pulse
H Back porch

... correspond with these ones (same order):

15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 3.500, 4.7000, 9.500, 0.064, 0.260, 1.200, 0, 0, 256, 448

... same for vertical values:

15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 3.500, 4.7000, 9.500, 0.064, 0.260, 1.200, 0, 0, 256, 448

So the meaning of all this is not to center a particular resolution (that is overriden anyway by GroovyMAME).

What we do is to ensure that all the modelines recalculated from that monitor_specs line are similar to the one you just centered with Arcade_OSD (which values you've obtained).

Quote
maybe a guide is in need for using Arcade_OSD correctly?

Definitely, you'll probably have some news soon.


Ok cheers, that explains it a bit more, but just to clarify something, using the 288x224 (rolling thunder) i have edited the setting as best to fill the screen, now in the horizontal geometry submenu i have:

H Front Porch>>>>>>>>>>>3.834
H Sync Pulse>>>>>>>>>>>3.834
H Back Porch>>>>>>>>>>>10.224

So i should change the monitor_specs line to reflect this right....

15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 3.834, 3.834, 10.224, 0.064, 0.260, 1.200, 0, 0, 288, 448

But when i go to a different video resolution and change the values in the horizontal geometry submenu so it fits the screen, that will give me 3 competely different H Front Porch, H Sync Pulse and H Back Porch vaules that i would need change in the monitor_spec line, and thus will give me another monitor_spec line??

I have noticed that RoadBlasters which uses 336x240 gives me borders either side of the screen, but when i load that resolution up in Arcade OSD it fills the screen out and there is no borders, so how come there is when running the game?

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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2012, 05:12:02 pm »
You'll need to become good friends with that Service Menu to play R-Type, et al. :) You'll probably need to use the remote control to navigate. Honestly, I'm surprised you've gotten as far as you have without messing about with Service Menus. Lots of the TVs I've tried need some full-on tweaking before the image starts to looks decent. Some of the Loewes I've tried have been horrendous before I've corrected the geometry.

It's a pain to have to adjust the settings in between games but it's a small price to pay for arcade perfect CRT gaming. :) Trust me, you'll get really quick at it.

Yeah i need to find out what the service menu code is for this sony, a quick look on google hasnt come up with anything yet, where do you usually look for your codes? To be fair the service menu scares the crap out of me, the only things i dare change is the screen size and shift the picture to the left and right? Do you usually tweat more than this then??

The main problem im going to have is i have my NTSC SNES connected up to this TV aswell, and while that displays more or less perfectly (it could do with being shifted over the the right abit) if i start changing it for MAME then it will mess up the setup for the SNES :(

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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2012, 05:21:41 pm »
Quote
But when i go to a different video resolution and change the values in the horizontal geometry submenu so it fits the screen, that will give me 3 competely different H Front Porch, H Sync Pulse and H Back Porch vaules that i would need change in the monitor_spec line, and thus will give me another monitor_spec line??

Well that's true, because you can only increase values by a character (ch) at a time, so that numbers jump specially for lower resolutions. In order to get more accurate values, try centering a mode with the highest horizontal resolution possible (720x480i is fine). You'll probably need to fine tune those values a little bit until you find the sweet spot.

However, I was recommending you trying Arcade_OSD adjustments in order to get the minimum vertical back porch that your monitor is happy with.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
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 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2012, 05:27:25 pm »
Do you usually tweat more than this then?

Oh yeah! I love to have a play with everything. ;) You should be fine if write down the original values before changing anything. Stick to the H & V size and position controls and then branch out if you need to. There are heaps of sites out there with service manuals that tell you all about the Service Menus for particular TVs. Maybe try searching for the chassis number instead of the actual TV model number?

The main problem im going to have is i have my NTSC SNES connected up to this TV aswell, and while that displays more or less perfectly (it could do with being shifted over the the right abit) if i start changing it for MAME then it will mess up the setup for the SNES :(

Well, that makes the decision for you: get your TV looking PERFECT for the SNES using the Service Menu geometry adjustments. Then, use Arcade_OSD to discover the correct values and then setup your monitor_spec line accordingly, yes?
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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2012, 05:33:07 pm »
Well, that makes the decision for you: get your TV looking PERFECT for the SNES using the Service Menu geometry adjustments. Then, use Arcade_OSD to discover the correct values and then setup your monitor_spec line accordingly, yes?

Yes, that's the right way to do it.
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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2012, 05:41:16 pm »
there are several codes related to the build in chassis . try standby , remote : I+ , 5 , Vol+ , picture . if tt appears on the screen press menu .

alternate method may be to start the tv with 2 pressed buttons from the front panel . google ur chassis and service mode .

i ll adjust the screen that 9x % of my favorites are working well. i ll give a dam of some crapgames i ll never play . try alternate nearby resolutions if a game hesitates to work .

only the 29 inch sonys have a second coil around the tube to adjust rotation in +  -  degrees steps. maybe the tech can be adapted to the 25 inch models , coz the chassis are identical with all the needed plugs. both my 25 inch sonys have these slight offsets.

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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2012, 05:41:34 pm »
However, I was recommending you trying Arcade_OSD adjustments in order to get the minimum vertical back porch that your monitor is happy with.

Ok ill do that first and then get a more accurate values by selecting 720x480i and try centering that mode as best as possible.

I take it that if i select a V back porch value that is too low then ill just get a 'out of sync' display on my TV right?? What resolution is the correct one to use to find my lowest V back porch value or doesnt it matter?

Something strange is going on here, have just loaded TMNT and the screen is really zoomed in, for the nag screen the actual nag box in the centre of the screen with the text in thats the only thing i can see just that box, when the game loads the horizontal values seem to be ok and fit the screen, but on the vertical the game screen is about a quarter down the screen and cuts the rest off at the bottom, yet when i run the res mode that TMNT uses in Arcade OSD (336x240) it fills the screen fine!!

EDIT: OutRun (320x224) seems to be doing a similar thing, nag screen zoomed in and the in game display is a quarter up the screen with a massive border at the bottom?

Well, that makes the decision for you: get your TV looking PERFECT for the SNES using the Service Menu geometry adjustments. Then, use Arcade_OSD to discover the correct values and then setup your monitor_spec line accordingly, yes?

Yeah well thats what i was think but what ever i do with the Arcade OSD settings im not going to be able to get games like R-type to fit my screen??
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 05:55:01 pm by lettuce »

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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2012, 05:44:05 pm »
there are several codes related to the build in chassis . try standby , remote : I+ , 5 , Vol+ , picture . if tt appears on the screen press menu .

alternate method may be to start the tv with 2 pressed buttons from the front panel . google ur chassis and service mode .

i ll adjust the screen that 9x % of my favorites are working well. i ll give a dam of some crapgames i ll never play . try alternate nearby resolutions if a game hesitates to work .

only the 29 inch sonys have a second coil around the tube to adjust rotation in +  -  degrees steps. maybe the tech can be adapted to the 25 inch models , coz the chassis are identical with all the needed plugs. both my 25 inch sonys have these slight offsets.

How do i find what chassiz the Sony uses?, is there a database somewhere on the net, or is the only way to find out to take the TV apart?

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Re: SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2
« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2012, 06:00:55 pm »
Quote
I take it that if i select a V back porch value that is too low then ill just get a 'out of sync' display on my TV right?? What resolution is the correct one to use to find my lowest V back porch value or doesnt it matter?

Before it goes out of sync you should see some distortion on the top of the picture, you need to find the lowest value that's distortion-free. Best resolution to test this: one with 256 lines.

If you start experiencing issues like that one with tnmt after messing with Arcade_OSD, try running VMMaker and restarting to regenerate all modelines.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

  
 

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