SCART CRT TV And GroovyMAME Thread 2

[Calamity]

No, just the monitor_specs in mame.ini and run dbreed again and the rest of games.

I need to go for today. Anyway, the aim of all this is to get to a point where you don't need to use v-center anymore, so all games can more or less fit just by using v-size.

If this is not possible, then I might need to rethink the modeline algorithm for TVs.

Thanks for your time and patience.

[lettuce]

Thanks for your help today! 

[lettuce]

Ok added 0.060 to the VFP and added this monitor_specs line to mame.ini as instructed...

monitor_specs 15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.120, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

Didnt seem to change anything for Dragon breed.

Have a question though since we set 256x256 with VFP 1, VSP 3, VBP 16 and shrunk the screen via the service menu so it fitted, we havent edited any of the monitor_specs lines in the mame or mvmake ini files just saved the 256x256 with VFP 1, VSP 3, VBP 16 settings in Arcade_OSD. Some how come you suggested editing the mame.ini with the above monitor_specs when we hadnt done this for the last few steps??

[Calamity]

Have a question though since we set 256x256 with VFP 1, VSP 3, VBP 16 and shrunk the screen via the service menu so it fitted, we havent edited any of the monitor_specs lines in the mame or mvmake ini files just saved the 256x256 with VFP 1, VSP 3, VBP 16 settings in Arcade_OSD. Some how come you suggested editing the mame.ini with the above monitor_specs when we hadnt done this for the last few steps??

 

So what settings have we been testing? Didn't you include this monitor_specs line in mame.ini since the first step yesterday:
monitor_specs0 15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.060, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

I think you did. Please confirm. Were you using monitor_specs0 15625-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.060, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448 at this step: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=116669.msg1247784#msg1247784

In other words: we created this monitor_specs line the other day by using the values prompted in Arcade_OSD when we set the values VFP 1, VSP 3, VBP 16.

However, this values are only true for 256@60Hz, but dbreed uses 256@55Hz, so some padding lines need to be added, that's why the screen is shifted down.

[Calamity]

Lettuce, I'm thinking the dbreed issue (and probably the centering issue altogether) could be fixed if your TV accepted an horizontal frequency as low as 15200 KHz.

monitor_specs0 15200-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

(use this line in mame.ini for testing dbreed, re-center using service menu v-center, and test the rest of games).

[lettuce]

Ok, ill add line to my mame.ini, i dont need to add it to VMMaker.ini and generate??

[lettuce]

Have edited the Monitor_specs line in mame.ini (and only mame.ini) to...

monitor_specs0 15200-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

There appears to be about 4-6 lines of pixels missing from the bottom of the screen, there is also a 1/4 inch border at the bottom of the screen now for Dragon breed. I also think there might be overscan at the top of the screen also, as that red, green and blue line i was talking about it right at the top of the gaming display now when i move the screen down, where as before there was a 1/4 border between the gaming display and thie red, green and blue line.

I must add that the monitor_spec line in MVMaker.ini if different to...

monitor_specs0 15200-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

is this correct??

Also rolling thunder has a large border at the bottom (approx 1 inch and 1/2) and a very very margin border at the top but that red, green and blue line is right next to this border so is visable. So it would appear that this monitor_spec line has cause everything to be shifted up vertical to the limit of the TVs display hence why im seeing the red, green, and blue lines next to the active gaming screen now??

[Calamity]

Lettuce, I'm sorry I made a mistake when copying the monitor_specs line, use this one instead:

monitor_specs0 15200-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.060, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

You only need to add it to mame.ini by now. When we find the right values it will be the time to add it to vmmaker.ini and regenerate modes (not yet).

Run dbreed with this and correct the service menu adjustment for v-center, v-size until you make the screen fit.

[lettuce]

Ok used monitor_specs0 15200-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.060, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448 in mame.ini, loaded dragon breed can see the left, top, and right white borders of the nag screen moved the V-center up but the bottom one is cut off/overscanned

[Calamity]

Alright. I'm assuming your v-size is still wide enough to see the whole raster and some borders. Try lowering hfreqmin a little more:

monitor_specs0 15100-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.060, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

[lettuce]

Have tried, monitor_specs0 15100-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.060, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

but didnt seem to be any different...if anything maybe it cut off a tiny pic more from the bottom of the picture.

I even tried, monitor_specs0 14900-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.060, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448 and still was the same.

What is actually happening here can you explain it it moron terms 

[lettuce]

Using this Monitor_specs line, monitor_specs0 15700-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

Shows the whole gaming area on Dragon breed (can see the whole of the white border on the nag screen) but still has a sligh graphic glitch in the bottom right edge of the gaming display with some flashing pixels/lines

[Calamity]

What is actually happening here can you explain it it moron terms

Honestly, I don't quite get what's actually happening. As soon as I think I understand it, your results prove I am wrong 

With the last settings I suggested, we were producing a modeline for dbreed like this:

 ModeLine          "384x256x55.02" 7.988555 384 416 456 528 256 257 260 275 -HSync -VSync

This modeline has nearly the exact same vertical porches as the 256x256 mode we started with (VFP 1, VSP 3, VBP 15). However, you reported the bottom was cropped for this one, while the mode we tested in Arcade_OSD fits the screen perfectly. That's not what I expected. Both modes have nearly the same total lines (275 vs 276). However, one fits the screen, the other doesn't. So, in appearance, same values produce different results depending on, vfreq?? That's telling us your TV is doing some stuff with our modes, it's taking some decisions. Maybe it's designed to behave different for PAL/NTSC, and that's getting in the middle.

So probably the best you can do by now is using the line you came up with: monitor_specs0 15700-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448

... and see if by centering dbreed with this one you're so lucky that the other games are centered too. If this is the case, you'll just have to mess with v-size when switching games. Otherwise, you'll need to tweak v-size & v-center each time you switch game heights.

[lettuce]

So what our are options then? As if im going to be using, 15700-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448 games like dragon breed will display fine but others like, strider, final fight, robocop , rolling thunder etc will have massive borders. As ideally i would rather not have to adjust the V-Size. Seeing as there are more games that share similar resolutions to games like Rolling thunder, robocop etc than games like Drgaon breed R-type etc would it be fesable to get these type of games filling the screen??

Unless you have any other suggestions?

[Calamity]

So what our are options then? As if im going to be using, 15700-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 288, 448 games like dragon breed will display fine but others like, strider, final fight, robocop , rolling thunder etc will have massive borders. As ideally i would rather not have to adjust the V-Size. Seeing as there are more games that share similar resolutions to games like Rolling thunder, robocop etc than games like Drgaon breed R-type etc would it be fesable to get these type of games filling the screen??

Unless you have any other suggestions?

Again, vertical centering, vertical centering is the key.

If that monitor_specs line produces games that are centered all the time, then if your favourite games have 224-240 lines, just adjust v-size for 240 lines, and these games will fill the screen.

If the centering between games doesn't vary, you will be able to use a very tight v-size adjust to almost cover the screen. But if your vertical centering is kind of random, you'll need to open v-size more in order to leave bigger borders that avoid different games being cropped on the top or bottom of the screen.

Then if some day you decide to run rtype, just adjust v-size so you get the 256 lines in the screen.

[lettuce]

Ok, just tried running rolling thunder, and there a very small border at the top and a massive 2" border at the bottom, so it not centering on the vertical , this is with the V-center value used to get Dragon breed to fit the screen.

What were the option for getting games like r-type to fit the screen  i think you said something about them running interlaced?

[Calamity]

Ok, just tried running rolling thunder, and there a very small border at the top and a massive 2" border at the bottom, so it not centering on the vertical , this is with the V-center value used to get Dragon breed to fit the screen.

I was afraid of that... anyway, if you center the screen for rolling thunder, do the rest of 224-240 games get centered too, at least??

What were the option for getting games like r-type to fit the screen  i think you said something about them running interlaced?

Come on lettuce, I can't believe you prefer an interlaced display rather than messing with your service menu for a minute.

Anyway, let god forgive you, just edit this value, everything above that will be interlaced.

15700-16662, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 248, 448

[apfelanni]

today i did some quick testing to figure out the max sync frequenzy of my " kitchen " tvs . the candidates :

grundig  t70-450 text : very basic and solid chassis cuc 6310, analog potis , nice picture , 28 inch philips tube , it doesnt sync anything above 16k . i bought this tv in the ninetees for about 400 dm , it may have been running less than 1000 hours .  less nonsens parts on the chassis , the better for arcade use.  

grundig st63-700 and st63-702 :  chassis cuc 2030 and 2032 digital , both sync around 16,4 khz max , both cripple some lines on the top , 240 line games seem to be ok , maybe 1-2 lines on top missing , 256 line games are cut off noticable .

philips 25pt4513-2: digital chassis , syncs around 16,4k max , some lines cut off in 240 , but barely noticable , 256 line games like r-type wont display without major cuts .

sony kv21x5d : digi chassis , syncs around 16,5k , 240 line games display without problems but u have to set vert size to min , which is zero , 256 line games are cut off on top and bottom .

[lettuce]

Yeah i guess its not a massive pain in the arse to mess about with the service menu.

Ok you know before we tried 256x256 in Arcade_OSD with the vertical geometry settings at VFP 1, VSP 3, VBP 16 and i reported that anything lower than VBP 16 cause the top of the screen to be cut off/over scanned??. Well i decided to lower VBP to 14 which translates to 0.850 in the monitor_spec, well ran Dragon breed and its still display the top white border of the nah screen!!!, so how come in arcade_osd its causing overscan??........you do now im using your beta update version of the Arcade_OSD that you sent me...if this effects anything or not??

[Calamity]

Yeah i guess its not a massive pain in the arse to mess about with the service menu.

Ok you know before we tried 256x256 in Arcade_OSD with the vertical geometry settings at VFP 1, VSP 3, VBP 16 and i reported that anything lower than VBP 16 cause the top of the screen to be cut off/over scanned??. Well i decided to lower VBP to 14 which translates to 0.850 in the monitor_spec, well ran Dragon breed and its still display the top white border of the nah screen!!!, so how come in arcade_osd its causing overscan??........you do now im using your beta update version of the Arcade_OSD that you sent me...if this effects anything or not??

Weird... well, in order to test that properly, you should enter the modeline dbreed is using into Arcade_OSD. You can get the modeline from the game's log, then you enter the modeline submenu in Arcade_OSD and copy the different values. So you'll get dbreed's mode into Arcade_OSD and possibly tweak it. (the beta version is just the same for the modeline part at least).

EDIT: Of course, in order to do this you have to edit an already existing 384x256 mode...

BTW, for the interlace solution, forgot to tell you to reduce the hfreq too:

15700-15800, 49.50-61.00, 4.100, 4.600, 8.700, 0.180, 0.180, 0.960, 0, 0, 248, 448

... otherwise the interlarced mode would be even taller than the progressive one!

EDIT2:

Well i decided to lower VBP to 14 which translates to 0.850 in the monitor_spec, well ran Dragon breed and its still display the top white border of the nah screen!!!, so how come in arcade_osd its causing overscan??

Well yesterday my brain was a bit collapsed. What you're seeing is completely normal, because although you're reducing VBP to 14, the modeline algorithm is stuffing the modeline with some padding lines so it reaches 15.700 KHz (the value you introduced in your last monitor_specs line), so it's compesating for the otherwise too short VBP. You'd either need to leave the monitor_specs line with 15.100 KHz or even lower to see how setting VBP to 14 has an effect, or generate the resolution at @60 Hz: at both situations none or just very few padding lines would be added, making the short VPB issue appear.

[Calamity]

today i did some quick testing to figure out the max sync frequenzy of my " kitchen " tvs . the candidates :

grundig  t70-450 text : very basic and solid chassis cuc 6310, analog potis , nice picture , 28 inch philips tube , it doesnt sync anything above 16k . i bought this tv in the ninetees for about 400 dm , it may have been running less than 1000 hours .  less nonsens parts on the chassis , the better for arcade use. 

grundig st63-700 and st63-702 :  chassis cuc 2030 and 2032 digital , both sync around 16,4 khz max , both cripple some lines on the top , 240 line games seem to be ok , maybe 1-2 lines on top missing , 256 line games are cut off noticable .

philips 25pt4513-2: digital chassis , syncs around 16,4k max , some lines cut off in 240 , but barely noticable , 256 line games like r-type wont display without major cuts .

sony kv21x5d : digi chassis , syncs around 16,5k , 240 line games display without problems but u have to set vert size to min , which is zero , 256 line games are cut off on top and bottom .

Hi apfelanni, thanks a lot for testing this.

I'm a bit surprised however that none of those can show 256p lines.
I think some of them might need a longer VBP, specially suspicious is the st70 782 chassis cuc 2032 picture cropped on the top. If you used 18 or even more lines instead of 16 you might get the top in the picture, did you try this already?

[Paradroid]

I'm a bit surprised however that none of those can show 256p lines.

Me too. To date, I've tried... let's see... I think 5 Grundig digital chassis TVs: 2 Grundig brand 50/60Hz TV, a 100Hz Grundig, a Siemens and a Blaupunkt (both Grundig digital chassis types). The very first Grundig was off the side of the road and I had no idea about the line limits of some TVs at that stage so I didn't test. It had other issues so I turfed it. However, all the others have been cable of showing a full R-Type image. Reducing the picture height and centering the image with the service menu did the trick every time.

[Calamity]

So do you twist the glass section of the yoke?? As looking at pic from the thread you posted about it looks like his twisting the black plastic cylindrical bit, but on my Sony there are about 4-5 tabs there???....

I have the answer from Characa from the Spanish forum: "Do not touch the tabs on those rings, they're only for static convergence adjustment. In order to correct the picture rotation, loosen the flange (as performed in the previous pictures) that holds the yoke or deflector block and the tube's neck together, and rotate (the yoke) in the required direction. TRINITRONs since 29" have an adjustment in their service menu to perform this rotation electronically."

[lettuce]

Cheers Calamity. So he suggeted to rotate the yoke, correct me if im wrong the yoke to the copper braided cone component....



Surely its not safe to touch that and rotate when the TV is turned on???

[Calamity]

Lettuce, be aware I just translated the answer, I've no idea of how to do it. As I understand it, he means the black block covered in dust that's between the cooper cone and the rings with tabs. However, I assume this is a rather dangerous think to perform if you really don't know what you're doing, so consider asking someone with the proper knowledge, in this forum there are very skilled people that might help.

[lettuce]

Well ill try it with the TV off to be on the safe side, it only needs to be rotated a little

[lettuce]

I loosened the jublie click around the neck of the tube, and tried to rotate the black plastic block but it didnt want to rotate, i didnt want to force it too much so i ahve left it

[Paradroid]

Man, I'd love to attack that thing with my air compressor! Look at all that dust! I have an air gun hooked up to a small air compressor for cleaning electronics. SO satisfying! My TVs end up super-clean, inside and out. Great for cleaning dusty heat sinks and such that don't function as well as they should when they've got a thick layer of insulating dust and dirt.

[lettuce]

I managed to clean it up inside in the end so nice and dust free now

[apfelanni]

some good news . the 240-256p problem of the modern digital grundig ( 2032 ) could be fixed via some changes in arcade osd . increasing the vbp helps to get the msising lines on the top. 240 p is perfect now , 256p maybe needs some more investigating how the parameters work. i dont wont to push the vfreq to the limit. the problems with 2 two sony kv25x5d has also gone . i opened them and adjusted screen and focus a little , bingo the sharpness went back to what i would say normal for a 10+x year old tv set. maybe not 100 % perfect like the philips , but 9x % . it looks like a matter of aging , but good thing it could be compensated . i wonder how many tvs end up in the garbage , because the owners think the tube is weaken and beyond repair , and still all it takes is some adjustment . so now i have 2 very good 25 inch vertical options for my second ok baby shell . 

[lettuce]

the problems with 2 two sony kv25x5d has also gone . i opened them and adjusted screen and focus a little , bingo the sharpness went back to what i would say normal for a 10+x year old tv set. maybe not 100 % perfect like the philips , but 9x % . it looks like a matter of aging , but good thing it could be compensated . i wonder how many tvs end up in the garbage , because the owners think the tube is weaken and beyond repair , and still all it takes is some adjustment . so now i have 2 very good 25 inch vertical options for my second ok baby shell . 

does your sony tv look the same as mine pictured above?

[Paradroid]

i wonder how many tvs end up in the garbage , because the owners think the tube is weaken and beyond repair , and still all it takes is some adjustment .

I know, I know! The thing that eats me up inside is that so many awesome TVs must bypass eBay, Gumtree, Freecycle, etc. and go straight to landfill.

Cool that you got some of your issues sorted! Like I said, all the Grundig chassis (digital and analog) I've tried have been 240 and 256 line capable. Some even do 288.

[apfelanni]

this is how my sony looks like .. small solid chassis , all can be unplugged .. he will end in baby2 in the next days.. all i have to do is build a new mountig frame .. 3 babys , but only 2 frames coz 1 came with a weird 20 inch china vga touchmonitor . did some bezeling to hide the monitor surrounding . u ll find the focus on the dst and the screen poti on the neckboard. if the pic is a little blurry u may try the focus .

@lettuce : u cant rotate the joke that easy , because its glued on the tube with the rubber spacer. i would only try this , if the rotation deviation is very noticable while playing .. theres always the chance u make things worse.

if all goes well and the sony is implanted , i ll have so setup a new mame comp with crt driver and groovymame for vertical gaming .  

[Paradroid]

Damn! Look at those cabs! Wish I had space for that kind of thing. apfelanni, what were you running before you got into GroovyMAME, just the standard MAME build? Those things are gonna be pretty special with the combination of that Trinitron and GroovyMAME!

[retronerd]

Hello! I need some help with Geometry calibration! Im running mameuifx32_0145 soft 15khz with scart_vga to my SONY-KV29X2E. First question, can i calibrate my tv thru the service menu so for example Street Fighter 2 fits correkt and save it ,and change in the service menu again so for example Mortal kombat fits with a good resolution. Please if anyone have the time to explain.. All help is very much apriciated.

I have the service menu for my TV but if i change h-size etc. it changes for every game and every channel. Please explain.

[Paradroid]

@retronerd: sounds like you're doing everything right if you're able to get sf2 and mk to fit properly after adjusting your service menu settings.

The reality of the situation is that TVs were designed to be calibrated for a single (PAL or NTSC) or dual (PAL and NTSC) resolution(s) whereas playing a variety of games in GroovyMAME will usually involve a whole range of different resolutions. TVs don't save settings for each individual resolution you want to run and therefore you have to fiddle with the service menu when you switch modes.

You can either accept that this is the price to pay for running games at native resolutions or try scaling all games to a fixed resolution (e.g. 640 × 480). The problem with that is that games look less authentic and you'll have a flickering image (due to interlacing). Neither option is ideal and you just have to work out which compromise you prefer.

For me, the ideal solution has proven to be modifying a SCART TV with analogue controls. That way I can run native resolutions and adjust the sizing very quickly using external potentiometers instead of jumping through the service menu hoops.

[retronerd]

Thanks for the reply! Do you have a diagram on how to make a SCART TV with analogue controls? One more question! Is groovymame an better alternative than mameuifx32?

I also need some advice on how to add modelines to 15khz.
I made a txt doc and named it as custom15khz.txt in same folder as soft 15khz.

Modeline "320x224@60" 6.700 320 336 367 426 224 236 239 262  -hsync -vsync   

Remove 800,600.

But its not working, please help!

i also have problem with my geometry, posting pictures soon!

[Paradroid]

Do you have a diagram on how to make a SCART TV with analogue controls?

"Make" a SCART TV from a diagram?! That would be way more fun than doing a jigsaw puzzle... Serious now, what you need is a TV that uses trimpots to adjust the image size and geometry instead of a digital service menu. Then, it's just a matter of soldering in larger potentiometers (of the same resistance) in their place. apfelanni is the grand wizard of SCART. If you search some of his posts you'll soon find a whole range of potential models by Grundig/Blaupunkt/Siemens/Phillips.

One more question! Is groovymame an better alternative than mameuifx32?

Not sure. Haven't used mameuifx32. From my understanding, GroovyMAME is the state-of-the-art when it comes to running MAME on a real CRT.

I also need some advice on how to add modelines to 15khz.

Do you have an ATI card? If so, I'd go with the vmaker and arcade_osd combination. It's easy to use and feature packed.

i also have problem with my geometry, posting pictures soon!

Looking forward to it.

[retronerd]

Hello again!

Before I found this thread, I used soft15khz, but when I installed crt_emudriver_9.3_1.2a_xp32 I got a lot more resolutions to choose from. I would like to learn how to set up different resolutions on each game in groovymame. Then I wonder how to set up some custom modelines.

 I'm pretty new to this.
 I have also included some pictures of my CRT monitor and the problem I have with the geometry. I fail to get the picture straight down at the bottom as you can see the pictures. sorry for my bad english...

http://imageshack.us/g/443/cimg1027pp.jpg/

[Calamity]

Hi retronerd,

GroovyMAME will pick the right resolutions automatically by itself, provided these resolutions are available in the system (CRT_Emudriver-> VMMaker, etc.). The system works by creating the required custom modelines for you, so in most situations you won't need to deal with modelines at all. The key for success is to figure out the monitor_specs settings that fit your monitor, then the right modelines will be calculated automatically.

The geometry issue with your CRT won't be fixed with modelines, try using your service menu options to solve it.

These Sony Trinitron TVs seem to be some of the best out there regarding flexibility and picture quality, when it comes to custom video support. It's just that, unfortunately, these sets perform some sort of autoadjustment between different modes, probably designed to compensate for the different geometry between PAL and NTSC standards, an advanced feature for their time which now results in a practical annoyance. For our specific purposes, we prefer dumb, indolent TVs which just show what they're fed with. However, in most situations the only "problem" is the need to enter the service menu to adjust v-size and v-center when we switch between modes.