joystick and push button confusion

[2panther]

There are so many model numbers for push buttons and joysticks I could use some clarification or even just some discussion on them.

Buttons:
I decided I wanted to go with Seimitsu buttons because they were a middle of the road button, not as touchy as the high end Sanwa's but not as clicky as the happs. I also like them because they're not concave. I've read that the snap in style won't work since I am using 3/4" mdf for my control panel so I would need to go with screw ins. Will I need to route out the bottom of the control panel to get them to fit or can I just drill the 30mm hole, stick the button in and screw the nut on?

Joysticks:
I'm not sure here which direction to go, I play all types of games from Street Fighter in all it's flavors, Raiden, Rtype, 1944, The Punisher, Aliens, Snow Bros so there is a mix of genres. Since I will be playing all genres of games what is the "best" (I know it's subjective and personal) overall joystick? I also see multiple models for the JLF, and JLW's and can't figure out what which one I'd actually need to buy. Same with the Seimistu LS-32-XX

I'd appreciate some guidance and or experiences

[brad808]

The different model jlfs are for the mounting plate most of the time. You can get them different shapes for different styles of control panels.

Some really good reading on all of this is at slagcoin. Give it a read and you will find your answers plus a bunch of other helpful information

[equlizer]

I went from happ ultimates to sanwa jlw's and what a difference. If you do this, order the circle gate as ive noticed diagonals are too easy to do on this stick.  The jlf's dont have as long as a shaft but you can put on an octo gate to get the best of both worlds.  JLF for shallow mount forsure!

[mgb]

my current 8-way stick is a Sanwa Jlw with a round restrictor, cherry micros meant for Happ supers (thanks equlizer) and stiff spring. I love this stick for vertical shooters such as Raiden and Sky Shark.
I'm not a huge fan of the JLF though.
Also I like the Happ Competitions for a good general 8-way stick

[nemcade]

I just installed IL Competitions on my cp...a HUGE difference from Happ Ultimates

[mytymaus007]

Happ Competion the way to go Actually Wico's are the top top!!!! I use these 2. The only way well the right way is to buy them all try them out then sell the ones you dont like! Otherwise you''ll always wonder!!

[2panther]

Thanks for all the replies, I think I've settled on the Seimitsu LS-32 but since I'm not sure how to mount the joystick so I can avoid any bolts on the cp.

My cp is 3/4" MDF and I think I would need to route out the bottom of the cp to get enough of the joystick shaft to the topside of the CP. how much can I route out without weakening the cp and making the joystick flimsy?

Also what would I screw the joystick into to secure it?

[Jack Burton]

Slagcoin will answer all your questions.  If you're mounting in MDF I suggest this setup:



I'd go ahead and get the Sanwa buttons if I were you.  They have a reputation for sensitivity, but they're not like "crazy" sensitive.  They're just overall higher quality.  Even in Japan many games use a Seimitsu stick + sanwa buttons setup.

[mgb]

Slagcoin will answer all your questions.  If you're mounting in MDF I suggest this setup:



I'd go ahead and get the Sanwa buttons if I were you.  They have a reputation for sensitivity, but they're not like "crazy" sensitive.  They're just overall higher quality.  Even in Japan many games use a Seimitsu stick + sanwa buttons setup.

+1 on that mounting sugestion

[2panther]

I don't think slag coin has an answer to bottom mount the joystick to no plexi on top of the cp, I'm trying to avoid bolts showing on top of the CP.

If I route out the top of the cp to accomodate the joystick mounting plate can I fill fill it back in with bondo or something to make the top smooth for when I put down the CO artwork?

[Turnarcades]

For underside joystick mounting, route out about half an inch then fix the joysticks using M4 or M5 countersunk machine screws - these are just fine threaded bolts but the countersunk heads drop them flush with the wood surface. You can do the same fir the buttons too, and we've found there's no reduction in surface integrity (at least for gameplay purposes) by routing down to even 1/16 inch, as long as the wood around it is thick and you don't route out much more than required.

[2panther]

For underside joystick mounting, route out about half an inch then fix the joysticks using M4 or M5 countersunk machine screws - these are just fine threaded bolts but the countersunk heads drop them flush with the wood surface. You can do the same fir the buttons too, and we've found there's no reduction in surface integrity (at least for gameplay purposes) by routing down to even 1/16 inch, as long as the wood around it is thick and you don't route out much more than required.

Great info, only thing I can't visualize is what the machine screws actually screw into to hold the joystick to the mdf

[drventure]

Two words

Insert nuts

http://www.google.com/search?q=insert+nuts

You drill a hole on the underside of the CP, screw them in with a screwdriver and then screw bolts into the nuts. Works WAY better than putting a bolt through the CP top.

[equlizer]

Two words

Insert nuts

http://www.google.com/search?q=insert+nuts

You drill a hole on the underside of the CP, screw them in with a screwdriver and then screw bolts into the nuts. Works WAY better than putting a bolt through the CP top.

Never even thought about that. Would have saved me hours of time and bitching   Im gunna just go buy a bunch now so ill always have them

[armi0024]

In case anyone is interested, we sell long shafts for both the JLF's and LS-32 series to allow for wood panel mounting without recessing the joystick plates...
The shafts are also hollow in case you want to light up the tops!

[drventure]

Would have saved me hours of time and bitching

I went through those exact same hours of time and bitching 

I might have to check out those hollow shafts...

[Turnarcades]

For underside joystick mounting, route out about half an inch then fix the joysticks using M4 or M5 countersunk machine screws - these are just fine threaded bolts but the countersunk heads drop them flush with the wood surface. You can do the same fir the buttons too, and we've found there's no reduction in surface integrity (at least for gameplay purposes) by routing down to even 1/16 inch, as long as the wood around it is thick and you don't route out much more than required.

Great info, only thing I can't visualize is what the machine screws actually screw into to hold the joystick to the mdf

They're 'machine screws' by name, but they're actually bolts. The wide countersunk head grips in the wood at the surfsce, then the nuts hold the joystick plate flat against the underside. Sink nuts (insert nuts) are OK in some instances, but if you don't like stupidly short joysticks you may want to route out a large section underneath so the plate sits higher and hence, the joysticks - insert nuts would be no good to you in this instance as there'd be very little wood to insert them into.

[2panther]

For underside joystick mounting, route out about half an inch then fix the joysticks using M4 or M5 countersunk machine screws - these are just fine threaded bolts but the countersunk heads drop them flush with the wood surface. You can do the same fir the buttons too, and we've found there's no reduction in surface integrity (at least for gameplay purposes) by routing down to even 1/16 inch, as long as the wood around it is thick and you don't route out much more than required.

Great info, only thing I can't visualize is what the machine screws actually screw into to hold the joystick to the mdf

They're 'machine screws' by name, but they're actually bolts. The wide countersunk head grips in the wood at the surfsce, then the nuts hold the joystick plate flat against the underside. Sink nuts (insert nuts) are OK in some instances, but if you don't like stupidly short joysticks you may want to route out a large section underneath so the plate sits higher and hence, the joysticks - insert nuts would be no good to you in this instance as there'd be very little wood to insert them into.

now I see, I think I'm going to go with the LS-32 and get the longer shaft, hopefully the extra length will be enough that I won't need to start routing out MDF on the bottom of the CP since that will be much easier.

[armi0024]

The long shafts we produce are 3/4" longer specifically for wood panels

[brad808]

The long shafts we produce are 3/4" longer specifically for wood panels

How do those feel compared to the original? I would think it would change the throw of the stick quite a bit no?

[armi0024]

The throw is longer, because the shaft is longer, there are custom mods to decrease throw...

[2panther]

I'm bringing this back up since it's my own thread, I'm STILL having trouble getting how this will work for the joystick. Buttons, no problem, joystick=can't get it through my thick skull.

I have my 3/4" MDF and need to ideally undermount the joystick so the top of the CP is smooth with no bolts. If I route out 1/2" from the bottom, what is holding the joystick to the MDF? Does someone have a real picture of this application that I could see?

[drventure]

My recommendation.

Route out .5" from the underside, position the stick under there and mark where the holes need to be, then drill out and tap insert nuts into the MDF.



Drill the center hole for the stick

Then install the stick and use machine screws from the underside into the insert nuts to hold the stick in place.

[henbury]

I mounted from the underside and used bog filler for a flush finish on Yipee Ki Yay.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=120827.0

Skip to the "control panel" and "control panel assembly" sections.

As i describe alongside the pictures, the only thing I might reconsider is jigsawing to allow for the baseplate only, and routing out underneath to make room for the micro switch bundle and harness plug. Then I mite not have had to fill in gaps with galvanized sheet. Don't use expanding foam it doesn't work.

[PL1]

I have my 3/4" MDF and need to ideally undermount the joystick so the top of the CP is smooth with no bolts. If I route out 1/2" from the bottom, what is holding the joystick to the MDF? Does someone have a real picture of this application that I could see?

Here's how I mount my Happ Supers.


Here are the inserts I used:
http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=70&products_id=317

NOTE: Scroll down on the linked page for installation instructions.  These inserts are .4" deep, so routing out 1/2" won't work with these.  Routing not necessary for long shaft Zippyys.  Even the short shaft Zippyy will reach -- with 1/10" clearance from the bottom of the ball to the washer resting on the MDF.   


Scott

[2panther]

My recommendation.

Route out .5" from the underside, position the stick under there and mark where the holes need to be, then drill out and tap insert nuts into the MDF.



Drill the center hole for the stick

Then install the stick and use machine screws from the underside into the insert nuts to hold the stick in place.

ok so I route 1/2" out where the entire plate will sit? then I drill the hole for the stick, got that part. Now those insert nuts, what keeps them from spinning in the mdf once I start screwing in the bolts to hold the joystick plate in? Maybe I'm just missing the mechanics of those insert nuts. What length would I need for the insert nuts? After routing out 1/2" I'd only have 1/4" left since I have 3/4" MDF, is that thick enough to take a beating of some spirited Street Fighter II gaming?

PL1 - great pics, thanks for them. From what I can see those are very similar to the insert nuts? With the mdf being 3/4" is the joystick length long enough or are the sticks short?

[2panther]

I'm being a little crazy about this thread but I'm so close to completing my cabinet that I can hardly contain myself. I'm about to pull the trigger on two Seimitsu LS-32's and I'm not sure which mounting bracket I want. there is a flat plate and and a bent plate. It also says it's ideal for metal CP's which mine is obviously not. Am I barking up the wrong tree here? Should I go with another joystick all together?

[PL1]

Now those insert nuts, what keeps them from spinning in the mdf once I start screwing in the bolts to hold the joystick plate in? Maybe I'm just missing the mechanics of those insert nuts.

The threads on the outside of the insert are like the threads on a wood screw.

Think of the inserts as hollow wood screws with machine screw threads on the inside.

Once you tighten the inserts using a screwdriver for Dr. V's version or an allen wrench for GGG's, you mount the joystick to the underside of the panel using machine screws.

The friction between the MDF and insert is much greater than the friction between the insert and the machine screw.  As long as you don't overtighten the inserts so much that they strip out the MDF, the inserts will stay right where they are when you firmly tighten or loosen the machine screws.

From what I can see those are very similar to the insert nuts?

The only differences are that Dr. V's has no collar and is tightened with a screwdriver, where GGG's has the collar at the top and is tightened with an allen wrench. The collar provides a positive stop at the surface of the MDF and a flat surface to tighten the machine screw against.  Either one will work perfectly well.

After routing out 1/2" I'd only have 1/4" left since I have 3/4" MDF, is that thick enough to take a beating of some spirited Street Fighter II gaming?

I think that Dr. V will agree that for "spirited" play, a little more thickness won't hurt.

With the mdf being 3/4" is the joystick length long enough or are the sticks short?

Zippyys are physically the same size and shape as the LS-32s you mentioned earlier in the post so this applies:

Routing not necessary for long shaft Zippyys.  Even the short shaft Zippyy will reach -- with 1/10" clearance from the bottom of the ball to the washer resting on the MDF.   

Long shaft version clears by about .8" on 3/4 MDF with the GGG inserts shown above.

I'm about to pull the trigger on two Seimitsu LS-32's and I'm not sure which mounting bracket I want.

No need for a mounting bracket.  The MDF and inserts provide the same function.  Just be sure to get the long shaft version.


Scott

[2panther]

Now those insert nuts, what keeps them from spinning in the mdf once I start screwing in the bolts to hold the joystick plate in? Maybe I'm just missing the mechanics of those insert nuts.

The threads on the outside of the insert are like the threads on a wood screw.

Think of the inserts as hollow wood screws with machine screw threads on the inside.

Once you tighten the inserts using a screwdriver for Dr. V's version or an allen wrench for GGG's, you mount the joystick to the underside of the panel using machine screws.

The friction between the MDF and insert is much greater than the friction between the insert and the machine screw.  As long as you don't overtighten the inserts so much that they strip out the MDF, the inserts will stay right where they are when you firmly tighten or loosen the machine screws.

From what I can see those are very similar to the insert nuts?

The only differences are that Dr. V's has no collar and is tightened with a screwdriver, where GGG's has the collar at the top and is tightened with an allen wrench. The collar provides a positive stop at the surface of the MDF and a flat surface to tighten the machine screw against.  Either one will work perfectly well.

After routing out 1/2" I'd only have 1/4" left since I have 3/4" MDF, is that thick enough to take a beating of some spirited Street Fighter II gaming?

I think that Dr. V will agree that for "spirited" play, a little more thickness won't hurt.

With the mdf being 3/4" is the joystick length long enough or are the sticks short?

Zippyys are physically the same size and shape as the LS-32s you mentioned earlier in the post so this applies:

Routing not necessary for long shaft Zippyys.  Even the short shaft Zippyy will reach -- with 1/10" clearance from the bottom of the ball to the washer resting on the MDF.   

Long shaft version clears by about .8" on 3/4 MDF with the GGG inserts shown above.

I'm about to pull the trigger on two Seimitsu LS-32's and I'm not sure which mounting bracket I want.

No need for a mounting bracket.  The MDF and inserts provide the same function.  Just be sure to get the long shaft version.


Scott

thanks for all the answers. I went ahead and ordered the Zippyy's along with the mounting kit from GGG. Love this site.

[Fred Smythe]

Great thread! I hope nobody minds if I ask a tangentially related question:

When I built my control panel several years ago (with a custom-built 3/4" MDF box), I mounted my (Vortex) spinner with (I think 2) plain' ol wood screws, so it's screwed directly into the MDF. Since recently I have wanted to take it out to address a slight chatter problem, I have realized that this was not the best design decision.

Do you think it would be possible to convert those wood screw holes to use these insert nuts without excessive routing or drilling? That way the spinner could easily go in or out as needed. I don't have a lot in the way of tools but I do have a Makita cordless impact hammer with a set of drill bits, so if I needed to do a tiny starter hole and then depend on the tap-in nut to do the rest, I could probably do that.

Thanks!

-- Chris

[PL1]

Do you think it would be possible to convert those wood screw holes to use these insert nuts without excessive routing or drilling? That way the spinner could easily go in or out as needed.

Chris,

If you use the GGG inserts, product link and directions located here call for a 1/8" pilot hole and a 5/16" main hole.  These inserts are not the tap-in type, but are the allen-drive screw type.  Just be sure to drill straight and get the inserts started square, and you'll do fine.


Scott

[Fred Smythe]

If you use the GGG inserts, product link and directions located here call for a 1/8" pilot hole and a 5/16" main hole.  These inserts are not the tap-in type, but are the allen-drive screw type.  Just be sure to drill straight and get the inserts started square, and you'll do fine.

Mmkay. So, please forgive my lack of knowledge...I just want to be sure I understand:

So what you're saying means, assuming a fresh piece of MDF (which we don't have, but we'll get to that in a second) I would need to drill a smallish (say, 1/4" deep) 1/8" hole and that's enough to commence screwing these in, but that the nuts themselves will eventually take up 5/16", yes?

If I originally used regular wood screws for the installation, and unscrew them, it seems likely that once those screws are out I will already have appropriate pilot holes and can just go straight to the screwing-in-of-the-new-bits part. Think that would work?

[Nephasth]

If I originally used regular wood screws for the installation, and unscrew them, it seems likely that once those screws are out I will already have appropriate pilot holes and can just go straight to the screwing-in-of-the-new-bits part. Think that would work?

Use those holes as guides while drilling them out to 5/16" or whatever particular size your threaded inserts require...

[Fred Smythe]

Use those holes as guides while drilling them out to 5/16" or whatever particular size your threaded inserts require...

I guess I don't see why. If they're already 1/8" from the previous screws, aren't those the guide holes I need for the above?

[PL1]

Use those holes as guides while drilling them out to 5/16" or whatever particular size your threaded inserts require...

I guess I don't see why. If they're already 1/8" from the previous screws, aren't those the guide holes I need for the above?

Yes, the existing screw holes can act as the pilot holes (not the ideal way, though), as long as the screws were straight in and centered on the spinner mount holes.  If they are not, you need to very carefully drill centered and straight pilot holes, followed by 5/16" holes to a depth of slightly over .4" (the depth of the GGG inserts)


Scott

[Nephasth]

I pilot hole is a hole that is drilled prior to drilling the final sized hole (or the next incremental step up towards final hole size). They're used to help guide and prevent larger drill bits from wandering...

[Fred Smythe]

followed by 5/16" holes to a depth of slightly over .4" (the depth of the GGG inserts)

Yeah, they're centered. (After all, they are currently what the spinner is screwed into. )

Mmkay, I get it, so the point is that there needs to be a 5/16ths hole there before anything goes into said hole, not that the insert nuts will expand an 1/8" hole out to 5/16ths.

I'll have to think about it and decide if my drilling skills are sufficient to do that precisely enough. The reason I wanted to pull the spinner out in the first place has gone away (the source of the chatter has been found and lubed and now the spinner is totally silent! ) so I might be able to just keep moving along, status-quo.

But I thank you all for the help!

[PL1]

I'll have to think about it and decide if my drilling skills are sufficient to do that precisely enough.

You can always do a practice run or two on a scrap of MDF then un-screw the insert and reuse it.   


Scott

[Fred Smythe]

You can always do a practice run or two on a scrap of MDF then un-screw the insert and reuse it.   

Excellent point. Unfortunately I don't have any kicking around here (at least, nothing that isn't currently dedicated to crappy furniture and so is not suitable for scrap at the moment ), but if I should come across some, I think I'll take a flyer on that.

[2panther]

Can anyone tell me the size hole I should drill for the zippy joystick? Also is it the same size for the GGG Arcade Prime pushbuttons?