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Author Topic: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up  (Read 9160 times)

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pinzach

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Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« on: September 26, 2011, 10:55:51 am »
Have played a lot of the classics on MAME recently and realized while some have held up very well and still play great, some have not. I was surprised by playing some games that I loved in the arcades in the 80s that I am disappointed in today... And conversely. I have found many games I wasn't into then, that I love now.

My graph of it all is on my MAME blog here...

http://mamezach.blogspot.com/

codefenix

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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2011, 11:16:53 am »
Interesting read, although it's largely subjective.  Donkey Kong would be much further to the right on my grid, as it holds up very well today.  It's an overall good quality game that defines the arcade genre.  But again, that's just my opinion.

pinzach

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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2011, 11:43:21 am »
Interesting read, although it's largely subjective.  Donkey Kong would be much further to the right on my grid, as it holds up very well today.  It's an overall good quality game that defines the arcade genre.  But again, that's just my opinion.


Indeed, it is ALL subjective.  Thanks for the input.  This is how I see them, not necessarily how I think they are viewed by everyone else.

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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2011, 11:53:57 am »
Very subjective and yeah, definite argument starter. Take the game topic at hand for example: Donkey Kong. The problem I have today with just about any game that involves "platform jumping" aspects is that I've grown too accustomed to how polished character control has become today. So to then play a game where your character jumps in weird ways, can't fall off the end of girders, has a hard time "grabbing" the ladder, etc and it's a recipe for fustration.  Of course Donkey Kong's controls are tolerable compared to other "platformers" of the era like Roc N Rope.

I'm glad to see Berzerk down in the corner. It's a slow game with awkward controls. But Crystal Castles? come on man....


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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2011, 12:28:06 pm »
I'm generally with you on the right side of the graph. Most of those games are the dedicated cabinets I will buy when I figure out how to monetize being lethargic.

Btw, keep up the good work on the site, I love editorial comments on retro gaming. Make the posts longer, though... I read fast.  ;D
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Working on: Pinball Re-theme, Homebrew arcade arena shooter

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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2011, 01:30:01 pm »
Missing are the games like TMNT, Simpsons, Gauntlet and several other insert coin to continue games which lost a lot of appeal for me by not actually using coins.

boardjunkie

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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2011, 03:34:07 pm »
TMNT and Simpsons ain't exactly in the classic genre....

codefenix

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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2011, 03:39:49 pm »
Gauntlet is.   ;)

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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2011, 03:45:04 pm »

Donkbaca

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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2011, 04:18:42 pm »
I am always astonished that people find centipede fun

Rando

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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2011, 04:24:06 pm »
I am always astonished that people find centipede fun
One of my wife's favorites, this would be higher on my "Like it now" radar than my "Liked it then" likely because I was never very good and it would eat my quarters quickly.
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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2011, 05:53:28 pm »
Here is some info that is sort of related but only because we are talking games.

Apparently the amount of money spent on games for PCs or Tablets or Pads is on the increase and will soon be much greater than the amount of money spent on console games.  

The biggest driving factor seems to be social network type games and women players.   Spending money in farmville or buying angry birds is an example.   The money spent to buy non tangible items on many pad type games is becoming a huge source of income.   I know WOW started it on the PC but it its now skyrocketing.

There are also alot of older style arcade games gaining new life and money with their release on phone and other touch devices.

Will post the link if I find it again.

Link
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 05:58:01 pm by BobA »

Gatt

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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2011, 06:44:16 pm »
@ BobA (Because the quote function hates me)

It's really not much of a surprise,  console games have three fatal flaws...

1.  Platforms are defined by their controls.  Console games are primarily limited to those types of games that can be converted to a gamepad,  excluding significant genres such as RTS,  and making other genres awkward at best.

2.  Consoles are dominated by sequel-itis and "Me too"-itis,  because of their buisness structure.  As closed platforms,  new ideas do not readily enter the system because they usually come from new studios who lack the funding to aquire platform licenses,  and because platform owners ultimately have control.  Brian Fargo,  the old Interplay dev,  once complained that he presented Microsoft with an RPG they wanted to develop,  and were denied a license because "We have RPG's covered for the next couple years".

3.  Consoles suffer from a unchanging hardware base.  They cannot innovate,  because what you had on day 1 is what you have on day 1000,  and you cannot introduce new techniques or features because the hardware itself is limiting over time.  Today,  cell phones have nearly as much memory as the 360 does.

That's why they tried to do hardware refreshes every 5 years,  to avoid the hardware limitations and ease the first two problems by being able to add some new features to the same few games over and over.  But,  much like the SNES/Genesis era,  they've maintained the platforms too long,  made the same game too many times in a row,  and now people are starting to get fatigued from it.  So,  they return to the Open PC platform that has a great deal more potential variety,  lower barrier to entry,  and much more evolved hardware.

Personally,  I think we've seen the last generation of consoles.  I don't think they can overcome the heat and power limitations of the small form factors,  and I think by the time they do,  tablets and multi-multicore home servers pushing screens in the house independently will have taken over.

Which is fine with me,  because tablets lend themselves well to arcade type games,  and I favor PC gaming over console gaming,  though I do own both.

jimmy2x2x

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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2011, 06:59:24 pm »
I agree with the bulk of what you are saying:

because tablets lend themselves well to arcade type games

is something I take issue with, how can you possibly justify that?

Arcade type games benefit from rugged, tactile, precise controls - the total opposite of what tablets offer.   I would even go as far as to say that tablets offer the least arcade friendly controls seen on any system.



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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2011, 07:34:12 pm »
Response:

1 - All platforms are designed by their controls, whether it be PC, tablet or console.  If anything else, consoles have been the leaders in terms of the way people interact with games, and continue to do so with their peripherals.  If people wanted to play RTS games with say a mouse and a keyboard, there is nothing stopping them from doing so, all you would have do is release a mouse and keyboard peripheral.  This is not a fatal flaw in my opinion, nor is the argument you are making

2 - That's just the nature of all media, there is a natural gravitation towards copying success. If anything right now, the iphone, ipad and face book are dominated with farmville wanna-be's.  

3- This isn't an issue, because there are very few games that are released that push the envelope in terms of what a console is capable of.  Long hardware cycles are good because they allow for more market penetration, which means a bigger market for games, which translates into bigger investments into game development.  Also, this is not true, peripherals get introduced that add fundamental changes to game play possibilities.  Look at the kinect, look at the move, heck look at the motion plus for the wii, the wii fit board, etc.  Not to mention the rockband controllers.  Constant hardware turnover is BAD for gaming.

The PC platform does NOT have low barrier to entry. You can get a refurbed 360 for a nundred bucks, to find a PC with comparable gaming  capability, you are looking at spending at LEAST that much on a video card.

You keep talking about hardware.  Hardware doesn't matter, its the software that plays on the hardware that matters most.  Look at the failure of the 3DO, the Atari Jaguar and many, many other consoles that touted the virtues of superior hardware.  

The main reason there has been this shift in gaming is because the industry is paying attention to a niche of gamer that it never has before.  The largest jump in gaming has been women in their forties playing farmville and angry birds, you are telling me this hardware driven?  

honkey

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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2011, 08:21:23 pm »
Galaga is hands down my favorite game. I also still enjoy Frogger, but it would drop a little bit in comparison to how much I used to enjoy it.

leapinlew

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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2011, 09:12:30 pm »
I agree with the bulk of what you are saying:

I don't know how you can agree with any of it. It's a load of crap.

codefenix

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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2011, 09:30:08 pm »
Thread subject achieved.

leapinlew

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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2011, 09:45:00 pm »
Thread subject achieved.

NO IT HASN'T!

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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2011, 12:07:01 am »
Missing are the games like TMNT, Simpsons, Gauntlet and several other insert coin to continue games which lost a lot of appeal for me by not actually using coins.

Arcade games, especially post-JAMMA/90s games SUCK with free credits. Those games ate quarters back in the day, and it's part of the whole experience. Even back then TMNT and all those beat em ups would have no value without the insane challenge. I still find value in playing a game like Double Dragon for example when I moderate how many credits I have and try to get as far as I can. A beat em up with no tokens is like poker with no chips. Not sure how anyone can enjoy any game made after '85 without some token dropping and a game over screen lol. It's even more awkward when these classics get a re-release on consoles with unlimited lives. BOOOOORING.

And as for the graph, I didn't grow up in the 80s so I can't comment on how much I use to like any of those titles, but I gotta say can't believe you once hated Juno First. That's one great game that's really stood the test of time! An all time favorite over here. Same with Tapper! And I agree with Crystal Castles. Compared to other golden age games, CC sucks ass. But you lost me with Frogger and Donkey Kong. And Ghost & Goblins nearly dead center? Blasphemy. Ghost & Goblins is damn timeless my dude lol!


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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2011, 01:46:29 am »
Ghosts and goblins is 1000 times more fun than centipede

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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2011, 02:51:10 am »
Ghosts and goblins is 1000 times more fun than centipede

Lol now hold up. Is Centipede all that bad or are you bad at Centipede lol. Jus jokin. I like Centipede almost as much as GnG (...almost). I love retro shmups like that centiped, galaga, or juno first. Millipede on the other hand is a piece of garbage.

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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2011, 07:43:30 am »
I dont see arkanoid on there  :afro:
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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2011, 08:46:38 am »
Ghosts and goblins is 1000 times more fun than centipede

You forgot the IMO at the end....


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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2011, 10:54:27 am »
Ghosts and goblins is 1000 times more fun than centipede

You forgot the IMO at the end....
I never saw G&G back in the day, heard it mentioned favorably a few times here, tried it on my MAME cab, meh.  :dunno
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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2011, 11:05:10 am »

And as for the graph, I didn't grow up in the 80s so I can't comment on how much I use to like any of those titles, but I gotta say can't believe you once hated Juno First. That's one great game that's really stood the test of time! An all time favorite over here. Same with Tapper! And I agree with Crystal Castles. Compared to other golden age games, CC sucks ass. But you lost me with Frogger and Donkey Kong. And Ghost & Goblins nearly dead center? Blasphemy. Ghost & Goblins is damn timeless my dude lol!



Keep in mind, just because I didn't love something back then doesn't mean I hated it.  Lots of games I was just indifferent to.  They just didn't compel me to play them much in the arcades.  So games on my chart like Astro Blaster, Juno First and Black Widow - I didn't hate, I just wasn't into them at all - but now I think they rock.

I didn't deal with sequels in my chart (Ms. Pac-Man, Stargate, etc) but I will say that I thought Ghouls n' Ghosts was a much better game than Ghosts n' Goblins.

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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2011, 11:18:56 am »
I didn't deal with sequels in my chart (Ms. Pac-Man, Stargate, etc) but I will say that I thought Ghouls n' Ghosts was a much better game than Ghosts n' Goblins.

Galaga is the sequel to Galaxian
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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2011, 11:26:27 am »
When Donk was 5, he was bit by a centipede. Ever since then, it's colored his perception of things.
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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2011, 11:43:15 am »
The only thing remotely interesting about centipede is the novelty of the trackball.  Ghosts and Goblins is fun, its freakin' hard, but fun.  If you are the type of person that can play centipede for more than 5 minutes, I can't imagine that there would be many games that you would consider boring...


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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2011, 12:02:48 pm »
Yea....yer right. Not like Centipede was a big success or anything....

Kangaroo....now *that* was a dog....

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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2011, 12:05:53 pm »
Right... because if it was successful it must be good, so DDR is the best arcade game of all time.


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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2011, 12:22:25 pm »
Guess anyone who likes Centipede is mentally deficient then. You must be of the fighting game generation. I grew up with and appreciate the "golden age" games....I could care less about most games made after 1985. I must have built 100 fighters from Golden Axe on up and never wanted to play a single one of them.....

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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2011, 12:27:49 pm »
I never said they were mentally deficient, just that they have a low entertainment threshold.  I appreciate "golden age games"  but centipede really isn't that fun.  Its a game that cashed in on the trackball novelty. You honestly tell me that can't pass by a centipede without wanting to put a quarter in it?  Can you honestly play that game for more than 20 mins?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 12:48:20 pm by Donkbaca »

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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2011, 12:42:58 pm »
I love that we're debating the merits of a fellow enthusiast's opinion. I think the dedication is pretty amazing. It's almost like reading a blog of modern games, just 30 years late. Great stuff "IMO"  First time I've seen the site and I definitely agree in principle with most assessments and it's given me a list of games I haven't even played yet.

Good work, Zach. Don't let the surly elite get you down.

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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2011, 01:02:12 pm »
The only thing remotely interesting about centipede is the novelty of the trackball. 

I think it has a bit more going for itself besides that.  Centipede is essentially Galaxian/Galaga with a playfield littered with barriers (mushrooms).  The movement of the titular centipede itself can be unpredictable, you're constantly fighting off spiders and flees that come in without warning, and there's no time to relax between levels.  It's a real endurance test when compared to other vertical shooters at the time, and I think that's why people like it.

And yes, I can honestly say that when I walked by an actual Centipede machine at Cedar Point a few weeks ago, I put in a quarter and played it.  Unfortunately, the trackball wouldn't move up or down, but oh well...  :(

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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #36 on: September 27, 2011, 01:06:13 pm »
It is nothing at all like Galaga.  Galaga only moves alone one axis, the enemies are more diverse, the sound in Galaga is way better.

Centipede is one of the most overrated games.  Its just boring.


ahofle

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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #37 on: September 27, 2011, 01:17:09 pm »
Lol now hold up. Is Centipede all that bad or are you bad at Centipede lol. Jus jokin. I like Centipede almost as much as GnG (...almost). I love retro shmups like that centiped, galaga, or juno first. Millipede on the other hand is a piece of garbage.


I think Millipede is an improvement in just about every way over Centipede, including more variety/less repetitiveness, increased game speed and difficulty, all without radical changes to the original game.  It also has that rare quality where you get in a zen-like trance while you are kicking ass, sort of like Robotron.  It's one of the few great sequels I can think of.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 01:18:57 pm by ahofle »

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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #38 on: September 27, 2011, 01:18:38 pm »
I can play Centipede for 20 minutes. I wasn't very good at it as a kid, but having a trackball on my cab has allowed me to appreciate how much skill is involved. It's a fun game that is more than just a novelty (and trackballs weren't really novel by then- other games had them years earlier).
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Re: Argument Starter - a Graph of how Classic Games have held up
« Reply #39 on: September 27, 2011, 01:20:38 pm »
It is nothing at all like Galaga.  Galaga only moves alone one axis, the enemies are more diverse, the sound in Galaga is way better.

Centipede is one of the most overrated games.  Its just boring.
Wow,
I totally feel the need to defend Centipede!  Love the trackball movement, graphics are clean, sound is great, speed of play is perfect... A great game!  Could I play more than 20 minutes?  No clue, I play my cab in 10 minute increments when taking breaks from other household activities.  For now though, I'll choose to Play Centipede or Galaga or Asteroids for a quick fix over Space Invaders, Galaxian, Pac man, or Donkey kong.

But that's just me and this entire thread is subjective!!  IMO. :)


Another post was just posted, so...
I also prefer Centipede to Millipede.  Don't know why, other than I don't like the look of those arrow things.  I was under the impression that Centipede was the sequel, to me it looks better.  Guess I got that backwards, but personally still prefer the Cent.
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