General wiring question for an alternate power source

[markronz]

Hey everyone-
    I have a wiring question, that I assume there's probably a pretty easy answer to, but I unfortunately don't know enough to figure it out on my own.   It has to do with my slot machine (actually Pachislo) but anyone familiar with wiring should probably be able to help.  Just for background information, let me explain what I'd like to do and why.   The pachislo machine accepts tokens.  Judging from the gameplay I've experienced on the machine so far, it takes a lot of tokens during normal play.   I only have a certain number of tokens, so once you play the machine for a while, you inevitably run out of tokens, and you have put all of them into the machine.  This is the point where in an arcade or casino that I'd have to go to buy more tokens.  Now at home what I have to do is open up the machine and take more tokens out of the hopper to play with.   It gets sort of irritating having to do this all of the time.  So I thought it would be sort of cool to rig up a hidden button on the machine, that when you push it, it pays out tokens as long as you have the button pressed in. So that's the overall goal of what I'm trying to do here.
   
Now, in the machine I've found the motor that controls the coin dispensing hopper.  There's a red wire and a black wire attached to it.   When you win on the machine, it will feed 20V DC power to the wire, and it spins the motor and dispenses tokens.  I used a multimeter to determine that it was 20V DC power being fed to it.  What I'd like to do is to introduce a wall wort power supply that is also 20V DC power.   I want to wire it up to the button and then to the motor. Now this is where I'm not sure how to wire it.  I,obviously, need the existing wires to still work when the machine wants to pay out.  But I want these new wires to feed in power only when the button is pushed.  I will not ever push the new button at the same time the machine is paying out.  There's a picture below of the motor and etc...
   
Seems to me like I need to somehow rig it up so that the existing wires are connected by default, then only when the button is pushed, that it switches the power to the wall wort.  Once the button is released, the power switches back to the existing wiring. So first, I was hoping someone could help explain to me how I could wire this up? 
   
And secondly, is there any specific type of pushbutton I'd need to get for this?
   
Let me know if you need any more information, or if what I've said doesn't make sense!  Thanks!

[BobA]

Don't add an additional power source just parallel a switch to the hopper switch to run the hopper. 

or

Just add an auto stop/credit add chip.

Pachislo Auto Stop Credit Add Mod

[markronz]

Thanks for the response Bob.   I saw the auto stop credit add mod before.   For my machine I can't (and have no desire to use) any sort of auto stop feature.  This is because the bonus game on my machine requires that you stop the reels in a specific order, which can change each spin.   So sometimes you need to stop 1, 3, then 2 reels.  Next spin it might be 3, 1, 2.  It alternates.  I know there's probably a way to turn off the AutoStop feature, but I guess in the end, the whole auto stop thing doesn't excite me.  I just like stopping the reels myself.   About the credit add mod, I don't like that part either.  I do like using tokens.   I just want there to be an easier way to get the tokens out.  Anyway, so that option is out.

Regarding the first thing you mentioned, what hopper switch are you referring to?   I've read that some machines have like a hopper empty switch, that will simply spit out tokens while the button is pushed (much like my desired button will do). My machine does not have such a button.  I've heard that some machines even have an "unjam hopper" type button that will make the wheels in the hopper spin the reverse direction.   I thought maybe I could reverse the polarity on such a button, but my machine also does not have one of these buttons either.   So that's why I'm trying to come up with my own solution.    But attached is a picture of all the buttons in my machine.  The white button is like a clear memory type button, and the red button is a reset type button.  There's no other buttons in the machine that control the hopper.  

So is there some other "hopper switch" you are referring to?

If not, could you or someone else explain how to hook up the button with the external source then?

[BobA]

The hopper has to be activated by the machine to dispense coins.  There must be a relay on the circuit board that controls the hopper that causes it to work.  If you can parallel a switch to this relay or solid state switch then you could dispense the coins manually.

Trace back the power wires on the hopper motor to see where they are controlled from.

[markronz]

Attached is a picture of the wires on the back of the hopper.   

#1 is just the two wires going to the motor.  These only have power when the machine wants it to pay out.
#2 seems to run over to #3
#3 comes from the circuit board

But I'm not sure what you're saying I should do?  Am I looking for a wire in sections 2 or 3 that are 20V?  Or what are you saying?

[BadMouth]

Use wire taps to tap into the 20v output on the power supply and the + on the motor (without severing the current connections).
Put a momentary pushbutton in between.
Done.

[markronz]

So I know there are quick splices out there, like these, that will allow me to tap into the 20v output once I find it.  That part I get.  What I still don't quite understand is how to hook that up to the motor, while still leaving the other wire there as well.  Do I just use a second splice?  Like shown in the attached picture?  So when you push the button is connects the 20V power on through to the motor?

Also...
#1  Do I need to use any kind of special button or will any SPST momentary push button work?
#2  Is there a good way to test out all the wires to determine which is 20V without actually cutting the wires and connecting the multimeter onto the actual copper wires?   What's a good way to test all the wires?

[BadMouth]

Do I just use a second splice?  Like shown in the attached picture?  So when you push the button is connects the 20V power on through to the motor?
which is 20V without actually cutting the wires and connecting the multimeter onto the actual copper wires?   What's a good way to test all the wires?

Yeah.

#1  Do I need to use any kind of special button or will any SPST momentary push button work?

As long as it can handle the current drawn by the motor.  I can't imagine the motor drawing that much.
If you're not sure, use an automotive horn button or toggle switch.
(I'd use the little one and see if it gets hot )

#2  Is there a good way to test out all the wires to determine which is 20V without actually cutting the wires and connecting the multimeter onto the actual copper wires?   

There is usually enough room to poke the leads in the back of the connectors where the wires come out.

[tho]

Taking a quick look at the manual for that model, the reset button (red square) should dispense tokens.  (You can also try the odds changing button which is located at the bottom left corner of the reel window inside the machine's front door)  When you do a hopper refill, you press that button to prime the hopper.  Give that a try and see if that works.  What may happen though is that it also sets off an alarm as there is a sensor that will alarm if tokens are dispensed where they aren't supposed to.  On my machine that's what happens, but looking at your manual, it may not as the button to dispense is the reset button (I press the reset to clear the alarm).  Anyway, if that dispenses coins then you can wire in parallel a momentary button that you can mount on the back of the box.  When you want tokens, press the button until you have what you want.  If you get alarms, then you will need to wire another button for the reset (or whatever button you need to press to clear the alarm) as well.

If none of that works and you do go the route of wiring the motor to spin the hopper, note that you might still get the alarm from the token sensor.

[markronz]

Thanks guys.   I'm about 99.9% sure that none of my buttons dispense tokens, even the odds button.   But I will be sure to test that thoroughly again before wiring to the motor.    Hadn't thought about any token sensor.   I guess I will cross that bridge when I come to it.  I'll let you know how it all works out.  Pretty sure I have some splices at home if I needed them.  Hoping to have some time later tonight where I could take a stab at this!

[markronz]

OK, so I had a chance to play around with my machine some more tonight.  First, there really is no button on my machine that makes the motor spin and dispense tokens.   I tried all the buttons; the red, white, and odds buttons.  None of them do anything when I press them or hold them in.  So that idea is out.

I tested the red wire that's connected to the motor.  When it's paying out the multimeter reads at 22.8 once the motor is fully spinning.   So it's not actually 20 exactly.  It starts out lower than 22.8, but like I said once the motor is fully spinning, then it reads at 22.8

I tested the wire that's coming out of the actual power supply, the one that's plugged into the wall.  That one reads at 11.6.   This wire heads over to that control box type thing, that has the white, red, power and etc buttons on it.

On the control box thing, there's basically four sets of wires on it.  Two head to the circuit board.  One heads to the lights on the door.  The last is the bunch that heads over to the hopper.    I tested every one of these wires.  There were several reading 4.8 but none that were 20, or 22.8 or anywhere near that actually.  What's interesting is that I found a few red wires, that initially read out at 4.8.  But if you leave the multimeter attached and then trigger the payout on the machine, the reading spikes up into the 20's.  So it's like there's no wires that come out of the control box thing that are always running at 20+volts.   It appears that the lines only seem to spike in volts when the payout is triggered.

I attached some pictures to help explain as well (the first three pictures).

So first, I'm obviously no electrical genius here, but I'm confused how the plug to the wall could only be reading in at 11.6, but that somehow the motor reads in at 22.8 when fully running.  Does that make sense at all?  When there's only 12 coming in, how can anything read above 12?

In any case, the only wire that's even above 5 is the one that's coming directly off the power supply at 11.6.   I didn't want to splice into this thing, so I decided to do some testing with a spare 12v wall wort I had lying around.   I hooked up just the red wire from the wall wort to the red wire on the hopper motor.  When I plugged it in, nothing happened.  So I then also hooked up the black wire from the wall wort to the black wire on the hopper motor as well.  When I plugged it in this time, the motor started spinning right up, and spitting out tokens.  So it seems that the motor works just fine with 12v power.   Now, as if I didn't need more problems, the "hopper empty" alarm started going off, just like tho said it might.   I suspect this happened because it realized the original two wires were just dangling there, not connected to anything.   I am sort of wondering if this would work any better if the splices were in place.  This way those wires would always still be connected and not totally disconnected, hanging there.  I guess if the alarm still goes off, I could always wire up a second button to do the reset to get the alarm off as well.

So right now I'm thinking I might just use the wall wort, instead of messing with the real power cord for the machine.  Just seems less risky to me than messing with the real power supply line in the machine.  So if I wanted to go that route, how do I get the black/ground wire from the power supply into play, since the motor won't spin without it?  Would I just use a second splice in the position I've shown in my 4th picture attached (HopperPayout2.jpg)?

Sorry this has gotten so complicated everyone, but I really appreciate the help!

[BobA]

The wall plug should read 120 VAC if you are North America.  You are reading your meter wrong or have it set at the wrong scale.  I think you need to establish some correct readings before cutting into any wires. 

[markronz]

It's set to the 200 number on the DCV section.   Is there where it should be when doing readings?

[markronz]

And I don't know if it's splitting hairs here, but I tested the wire coming out of the power supply, not like the plugs in my wall.

[BobA]

Well it looks like a transformer that you are calling a power supply so you should have your meter set on AC volts.  Alot of pachislo slots have a 120V to 100V AC transformer to bring the line voltage down to the level used in Japan.  You have to measure ACV at that point not DCV.

[markronz]

Ok, sorry transformer then, not power supply.  My bad.

I am confused though.   If my wall wort I was using says "Output: 12VDC 1000mA" on it, and it does successfully power the motor, wouldn't that mean the power is DC and not AC?  Or are they not mutually exclusive?

Attached is a picture of my multimeter.  (note: ignore the setting the dial is currently set to...)    Where would I have to put the dial to measure AC at these levels?  It would be the ACV section, at 200, right?   

[SavannahLion]

To answer the question of 12 volts becoming 20+ volts, one possibility is http://www.stepuptransformer.net/whatisatransformer.htm

Not saying that that's what you got there but it just shows one possible method.

Moving on....

Don't you need a diode there for back EMF? Or is that just for solenoids?

[DaOld Man]

The 20 VDC reading on the motor could be back emf created by the motor.
Sometimes you cant trust a digital volt meter, because it reads true RMS.
The wires coming out of the transformer (metal can in the pic), is AC, it is probably rectified to DC in the control box, which is probably also the drive for the motor.
All of this is taking into account that the motor is DC not AC, and it appears from your volt readings that it is.
Here is how I would connect it.
Cut the red wire going to the motor.
You now have two red wires, one from the motor and one from the drive.
Connect he red wire from the motor to the  common connection (COM) on a SPDT throw switch (such as the micro switch on a HAPP button). Connect the red wire from the drive to the normally closed contact (NC) on the switch.
Now connect the negative from your wall wart to the black wire on the motor. (This will connect the black from the motor, black form the drive, and negative from the wall wart together.)
Now connect the positive from the wall wart to the normally open (NO) contact on the switch.
Now with the switch not pressed, the motor is connected to the drive.
Press the button, the motor disconnects from the drive and connects to the wall wart.
IMHO, this is the best way to do it, since we dont know what type of drive you have, it would be safer not to back feed voltage to the drive, some drives place a short across the motor when not running, to stop the motor faster.

[DaOld Man]

Im looking at the pictures you posted, and in the one with the motor, what is that metal box in upper right corner? Looks like it has wires going to it. Is this a solenoid or something?
Does this device turn on while the motor is running?
Im asking because you need to make sure that something else is not going on to release the tokens besides just the motor running.

[markronz]

Ok, based on what you said, I made up another picture.  Sorry about all these pictures, but it's just how my brain works.  I need to see it visualized first before doing it.   Does how I have it laid out seem to make sense to you?  Seems to be right to me based on what I know from making arcades.   The part that I most want to confirm is the ground wires.  I'm essentially just twisting them all together?  Nothing fancy there?   I've already cut the original black wire in half from when I was playing with it before.  So now I would just be twisting the original wire (now cut in two) with the ground from the wall wort?

Regarding that metal box in the upper right.   I believe this is a sensor to count the number of tokens that are being paid out.  This is because when the hopper gets low, the motor will be spinning, but tokens won't necessarily be going out consistently, so this sensor counts the number of tokens that actually get put out, to make sure the right number gets paid.  There are three wires going to this metal box, a red, black, and brown on.   Both the red and brown ones read at 4.8 all the time and spikes into the 20's when the payout starts.   Do you think this is anything I need to worry about?

[DaOld Man]

 Does how I have it laid out seem to make sense to you?  Seems to be right to me based on what I know from making arcades.   The part that I most want to confirm is the ground wires.  I'm essentially just twisting them all together?  Nothing fancy there?   I've already cut the original black wire in half from when I was playing with it before.  So now I would just be twisting the original wire (now cut in two) with the ground from the wall wort?

Regarding that metal box in the upper right.   I believe this is a sensor to count the number of tokens that are being paid out.  This is because when the hopper gets low, the motor will be spinning, but tokens won't necessarily be going out consistently, so this sensor counts the number of tokens that actually get put out, to make sure the right number gets paid.  There are three wires going to this metal box, a red, black, and brown on.   Both the red and brown ones read at 4.8 all the time and spikes into the 20's when the payout starts.   Do you think this is anything I need to worry about?

Your drawing looks right to me.
I would twist the wires together and solder, if you can. Then wrap the junction with electrical tape. If you cant solder it, twist it good and tape it.
The two black wires should tie into the negative wire from the wall wart.
The positive from the wall wart goes to the switch.
Im not sure about the counter, without a clear schematic or wiring diagram, theres no way I can tell.
But you can try the wall wart like you have drawn and see if it works. If it does, why worry?
Good luck, and let us know how it turns out.

[markronz]

Well, I hooked everything up in the configuration from my photo!   The good news is that everything works, and when I push the button, the tokens pay out!    The bad news is that switching to the wall wort does make the alarm go off.  So I have to push the reset button after each time I make it manually payout.   This isn't the end of the world, I know that all I have to do is wire two buttons to the outside of the machine then (and deal with the alarm sound while tokens are dispensing).   So it's not quite the one button, no alarm, type solution I was looking for, but it will have to do.  Unless anyone has any ideas on how to make it not trigger the alarm?   I'm going to guess no one will, since we don't have the schematics or wiring diagrams for all this.  So I think we'll just go the two button route.

Thanks for the help everyone!  It's most appreciated!

[DaOld Man]

I would guess it is the counter setting off the alarm.
If you can unplug it, try that to see if it is alarming with the counter unplugged.
If not, you might can "kill" the power to the counter when you have the manual button pressed, but this would most likely require a different switch. A DPDT comes to mind.

[markronz]

Well it seems like it must be one of two things thats triggering the alarm.  Either it's recognizing that the original wiring was disconnected from the motor.  Or the sensor is seeing that coins are passing out of the hopper, and they shouldn't be.     I would suspect it's the sensor thing, but I should make sure.  So I guess to test out the first, all I have to do is disconnect the original wiring and see if that alone causes the alarm to go off.   If not, then power up the motor and spit a few quarters out.

Seems like if it's going off just because the wires are disconnected, then I'm really SOL, and I need to wire up the two buttons.
If it's the sensor causing the alarm, I could try cutting power to it like you've suggested.   There are two wires, a brown and a red (also a black) that head to that sensor thing.   So I will have to play with disconnecting one or both of those wires to see if that makes any difference. 

Well, I'm about to leave for the weekend tonight.  So early next week I will have to play around with this!   I'll post my results when I'm done, just in case anyone is interested.

[markronz]

Sorry it's been so long since I've last replied.  Had the flu, cold, threw my back out, then cold again.  Been a really nice string of luck!    Anyway, I finally got a chance to look at this all again, and figured out a decent fix for my problem.   I figured out (after clipping and playing with a few wires) that if I cut the brown wire going to the sensor on the hopper, then the alarm no longer goes off when I pushed the button to pay out tokens.   So what I had to do was get a DPDT Momentary Pushbutton (On/On).   I was then able to wire it up so that when the power was switched over to my wall wort, that the brown wire to the sensor was also disconnected.  Then when the button is released, both the normal red power wire to the motor, and the brown wire to the sensor were again connected.   This way the alarm does not go off when I push my new token button.

So this is a great solution for me.  Now unfortunately, this only works about 80% of the time.  The reason being that when you just cut the wall wort power to the motor, you are not controlling when the motor stops spinning. So occasionally it will stop, and a coin will be right in front of the sensor, not fully ejected.   Naturally once you release the button the sensor it restored, and it doesn't like that. So the alarm will go off anyway.    So I did end up having to wire the reset button there as well.   So when the alarm goes off, I quickly tap the new payout button again to kick out the token, then I press the reset button.    Both buttons are hidden behind the ash tray.    So again, it's not 100% but it still works the majority of the time with just one button.  And I'm very happy!    Attached is a picture of my wiring diagram, just in case it helps anyone else some day!   Again, it is a Bellco Digiflush machine that I have.

Thanks again for the help everyone!

[Jammin0]

Don't know if you care anymore since it is working and I am no expert but it seems like you should have a diode in there somewhere as I think someone mentioned before.  A diode stops current flow in one direction.  I would worry about back feeding power to your original circuit from the wall wart, especially since it might already be overpowered.  I know you said that it was 12V but have you ever tried reading it with your multimeter?  Not uncommon especially at 1A to have 12V actually read 20V or so without any load.  Your original source might be feeding 20V at 500mA versus your wall wart that is 12V at 1A.  (12 watts versus 10 watts)

Or, I could be completely wrong, like I say, I'm no expert.