Author Topic: Any horror stories from not properly ventilating a MAME cabinet (Read 20267 times)

emb · « **on:** June 27, 2011, 11:58:18 pm »

I'm debating whether or not to put a fan in my cab. I currently have air vents cut out of the top and bottom of my cabinet.

Dazz · « **Reply #1 on:** June 28, 2011, 12:53:16 am »

I have normal CPU cooler and case fans on the PC in my cab. Small air vents in the cabinet. The cabinet sits in my garage where temps during the summer hit 115f degrees... I've had no issues in 5 years. Of course the PC has been upgraded a couple times in 5 years, but still no issues.

saint · « **Reply #2 on:** June 28, 2011, 08:48:03 am »

I'd be interested in hearing other opinions, but in the 10+ years I've been in this hobby I've never heard of an overheating issue whether a cabinet was vented or no not. They're typically very open inside. That said, a good fan is cheap insurance. Dunno.

boardjunkie · « **Reply #3 on:** June 28, 2011, 09:09:31 am »

I think its a good idea.....for both MAME machines and dedicated arcade games as well. Electronics that need to be forced air cooled don't like heat buildup. HDDs will last longer if kept cool, and monitors will have a better lifespan as well.

If it were me I'd keep the PC in its case (to keep its forced air cooling), run some flexable "dryer vent" style tube from the exhaust fan(s) to the upper cab vent. Adding a fan to blow out warm air from the monitor would be a good idea.

Adding fans to a Tempest was almost mandatory to keep the monitor's deflection amps from blowing up.....

leapinlew · « **Reply #4 on:** June 28, 2011, 09:37:15 am »

Quote from: boardjunkie on June 28, 2011, 09:09:31 am

If it were me I'd keep the PC in its case (to keep its forced air cooling), run some flexable "dryer vent" style tube from the exhaust fan(s) to the upper cab vent. Adding a fan to blow out warm air from the monitor would be a good idea...

Is that really necessary? A dryer vent exhaust?! That sounds like overkill to me. In all my years, I haven't had an issue with overheating in a full size cabinet. I just don't see the need for an exhaust fan. A few openings at the top allow the heat to escape. If you wanted to put a fan anywhere, I'd put one in low, but I don't use any on my full size cabinets.

If you wanted to add fans, I'm sure it wouldn't hurt. I just don't think it helps.

ChadTower · « **Reply #5 on:** June 28, 2011, 09:40:40 am »

It sounds more like a dust collector than a viable cooling solution.

Put a thermometer in your cab. If it goes to maybe 140 degrees in there then add a fan at the top rear. If not, you don't need one.

boardjunkie · « **Reply #6 on:** June 28, 2011, 10:10:00 am »

The vent tube is not overkill, but needed to properly displace warm air and bring in fresh air. If you just leave the pc in there, it will recycle its own exhaust (there's no air movement inside a cab) and run warmer than it should. I've been involved in the amusement industry as a tech for over 20 years, and I know how much a monitor alone can heat up a cab. A PC dissipates far more heat than an arcade board and small switching supply.

So I guess its up to the builder what you want to do. But I would make the extra effort (its not that hard) to keep everything inside the cab as happy as possible if its expected to last and run reliably.

ChadTower · « **Reply #7 on:** June 28, 2011, 10:22:53 am »

The difference is that nobody on this site expects their PC to run 15 hours a day for 5 years. It's not run like commercial equipment. The requirements are not the same. People here turn their machines on when they want to use them and usually upgrade the PC after maybe 18 months. There is no 20,000 hour requirement on the PC of a MAME machine.

leapinlew · « **Reply #8 on:** June 28, 2011, 10:31:08 am »

Quote from: boardjunkie on June 28, 2011, 10:10:00 am

The vent tube is not overkill, but needed to properly displace warm air and bring in fresh air. If you just leave the pc in there, it will recycle its own exhaust (there's no air movement inside a cab) and run warmer than it should. I've been involved in the amusement industry as a tech for over 20 years, and I know how much a monitor alone can heat up a cab. A PC dissipates far more heat than an arcade board and small switching supply.

So I guess its up to the builder what you want to do. But I would make the extra effort (its not that hard) to keep everything inside the cab as happy as possible if its expected to last and run reliably.

To each his own. I have multiple cabs that run for weeks on end with no issues. Some of the cabs are almost entirely closed up, while others have a few exhaust openings up top and intake holes down lower. What should be mentioned is the caliber of computer used. I build my Mame machines with just enough. I don't use high end PC components that are overclocked and require additional cooling. My last machine only played classics and I was able to use a passively cooled Intel Atom.

I know saying a machine requires fans isn't correct, but I guess some machines would depending on the level of PC the builder decides to use.

BobA · « **Reply #9 on:** June 28, 2011, 10:36:38 am »

Also consider the size of the cab. Bartops need cooling alot more than a regular cab as they pack the equipment into a much smaller space.

boardjunkie · « **Reply #10 on:** June 28, 2011, 10:59:11 am »

Well....my approach is I want it to work every time I hit the button. Once its done, I don't wanna have to screw with it. Troubleshooting mystery blue screen crashes or other erratic behavior ain't my idea of fun. Heat can, and will make these things happen. I just went thru this on someone's PC that had the intake vents all packed full of dirt. Onboard graphics chip failed, ram was bad and was causing crashes after the machine warmed up. Heat killed it.

Monitors that run too warm will bake capacitors causing them to dry out and either make the image quality suffer, or cause the monitor to fail.

So....you do as you wish. I'll go the extra mile to insure that its gonna be reliable.

And on the subject of commercial games, they weren't expected to last more than a couple years, so they didn't bother with the finer details.

A great example of what heat can do to arcade games was the Cedar Point amusement park arcade in Ohio. When they still had all the vintage games in there (large arcade), you could count on a good portion of them either not working, or not working right. The room was not air conditioned, and it got real hot in there. Alot of the monitors looked like crap from dried out caps, and up to half the games were tagged out of order. Elevated temps inside the cabs was a major player in the failure of all this equipment. I don't think they ever had anyone working on the games who knew what they were doing. I even offered to tech for them many years ago 'cause I hated to see the games in such sad shape. They offered me some lowball salary, I passed, and that was the end of it.

leapinlew · « **Reply #11 on:** June 28, 2011, 11:08:14 am »

Like I said, there is nothing wrong with adding fans, but I equate it to using titanium joystick shafts. Sure it doesn't hurt... but it's not actually doing anything either.

boardjunkie · « **Reply #12 on:** June 28, 2011, 11:27:26 am »

Fans "don't do anything"? That goes against every rule of thermodynamics......

leapinlew · « **Reply #13 on:** June 28, 2011, 11:54:32 am »

Quote from: boardjunkie on June 28, 2011, 11:27:26 am

Fans "don't do anything"? That goes against every rule of thermodynamics......

Fans don't do anything in a vacuum .... put that in your rule of thermodynamics pipe.

Exactly, in many circumstances a fan doesn't hurt, but it also doesn't help. AKA "don't do anything"

boardjunkie · « **Reply #14 on:** June 28, 2011, 12:03:36 pm »

Since when is an arcade cab with upper and lower vents a vacuum?

Really....its this simple. You pull warm air out of the top, cool air comes in the bottom to replace it. Constant air circulation....

Donkbaca · « **Reply #15 on:** June 28, 2011, 12:19:17 pm »

Well I made sure that when cutting out the sides of my cab I was exact to get an airtight seal..... I was wondering this same thing, since I am putting an xbox 360 in my cabinet, but I ultimately decided against it. Here is my thinking:

1) Fans are LOUD, no getting around it, and they get really dirty. I don't want to deal with the additional noise and cleaning.
2) cabs are really leaky, I figure with the amount of space in there, plus the holes in the back, plus the leakage around the coin door/ joints, there will be plenty of air flow.
3) The PC and Xbox both have heat sensors and will shut down before any damage is done. If it overheats and shuts off, I'll add fans later.
4) If it all melts down I really don't care. I got a refurbed 360 for 100 bucks, the PC was a P4 that was free and I have another one on hand in case that one takes a dump. Storage is so cheap, I have the hard drive cloned. If the xbox takes a dump, I'll get another one for cheap, and if the pc explodes, I'll just swap it out with the new one and then add fans.

Hoopz · « **Reply #16 on:** June 28, 2011, 12:25:04 pm »

Quote from: Donkbaca on June 28, 2011, 12:19:17 pm

Well I made sure that when cutting out the sides of my cab I was exact to get an airtight seal..... I was wondering this same thing, since I am putting an xbox 360 in my cabinet, but I ultimately decided against it. Here is my thinking:

1) Fans are LOUD, no getting around it, and they get really dirty. I don't want to deal with the additional noise and cleaning.
2) cabs are really leaky, I figure with the amount of space in there, plus the holes in the back, plus the leakage around the coin door/ joints, there will be plenty of air flow.
3) The PC and Xbox both have heat sensors and will shut down before any damage is done. If it overheats and shuts off, I'll add fans later.
4) If it all melts down I really don't care. I got a refurbed 360 for 100 bucks, the PC was a P4 that was free and I have another one on hand in case that one takes a dump. Storage is so cheap, I have the hard drive cloned. If the xbox takes a dump, I'll get another one for cheap, and if the pc explodes, I'll just swap it out with the new one and then add fans.

Add to it that the sides of the cab are going to allow for heat transfer too. Unless someone put insulation in there, some of the heat is going to go out thru the sides and top of the cab itself and not just through any little crevices. Considering how many cubic feet are in a "typical" cabinet for air to move and heat to escape, I don't see the point in adding fans.

bkenobi · « **Reply #17 on:** June 28, 2011, 12:36:03 pm »

Yes, heat will be conducted through the wood sides, but that's not really going to make that much difference IMO. You have natural convection with hot air to warm wood on the inside, then natural convection from warm wood to warm air on the outside. You are going to get very little heat transfer even with the large surface area due to small delta temperatures and no forced air flow either inside or outside. I am ignoring radiation affects as that's a 4th order factor of temperature difference and is thus minimal.

Since the sides of the cabinet are wood, you will get very poor heat transfer especially with 3/4". If you made the sides out of metal, you would do better, but the limiting factor would still be the small deltaT between the inside and outside coupled with the minimal air movement.

IMO (without running any calculations), you will get most of your cooling from heat rising out the top leakage paths and being replaced by relatively cool air through lower leak paths. From what I've seen, many cabs just put a hole on the top with louvers (presumably to keep stuff from falling in) and leave the cab relatively poorly sealed (coin door, CP, rear door, designed vents in the back/front, etc).

boardjunkie · « **Reply #18 on:** June 28, 2011, 12:44:13 pm »

Those 360s are incredibly sensitive to heat buildup. Thats what causes the "red rings" failure. I'd be careful with that. I hear all the horror stories from a guy here in town who repairs that kind of stuff. Many thousands of $$ worth of BGA reflow equipment are required to properly repair it. And if the board warps, it will likely never operate right again.

http://ecadigitallibrary.com/pdf/56thECTC/s17p6cq.pdf

Read all about it....

saint · « **Reply #19 on:** June 28, 2011, 12:45:12 pm »

Quote from: bkenobi on June 28, 2011, 12:36:03 pm

IMO (without running any calculations), you will get most of your cooling from heat rising out the top leakage paths and being replaced by relatively cool air through lower leak paths. From what I've seen, many cabs just put a hole on the top with louvers (presumably to keep stuff from falling in) and leave the cab relatively poorly sealed (coin door, CP, rear door, designed vents in the back/front, etc).

Houses used to be cooled this way back (albeit with actual design intended) before air conditioning, right? Chad had a good idea, I'd be interested to see someone without cooling put a fan in their cabinet before running it, then running it a while, and reporting back on temperature rises.

I'd be pretty leery of a 360 like boardjunkie said. I do not think I'd be terribly concerned about a PC.

Mrephunk · « **Reply #20 on:** June 28, 2011, 12:50:38 pm »

With my cab build right now I am designing it to use a 360, my plan is to remove it completely form its housing and mount the MB on PCB feet, moving the dvd drive and hopefully alleviating heat problems

bkenobi · « **Reply #21 on:** June 28, 2011, 12:54:47 pm »

Quote from: saint on June 28, 2011, 12:45:12 pm

Houses used to be cooled this way back (albeit with actual design intended) before air conditioning, right?

They still are. Attics are designed to remain vented to help with moisture issues. There are soffit vents at the low points on the roof that need to remain open to keep fresh air entering. There are different ways to vent the high point of the roof, but jack vents are one of the more common. You won't likely feel any air movement if you enter the attic (unless a strong wind kicks up), but you can be assured that this ventilation is effective and REQUIRED! I just bought a house last year that the vents had been all but covered in one section of the house. That section had massive damage to the sheeting and rot/mold issues in some locations. The roof had been redone ~2 years prior, so this ventilation truly makes a HUGE difference.

As far as cabinets, again, this is an effective way to remove heat. BUT, if you have thermally sensitive electronics, you need to have a lower ambient temperature or much higher flow rates to sufficiently cool the components.

bkenobi · « **Reply #22 on:** June 28, 2011, 12:56:31 pm »

Quote from: Mrephunk on June 28, 2011, 12:50:38 pm

With my cab build right now I am designing it to use a 360, my plan is to remove it completely form its housing and mount the MB on PCB feet, moving the dvd drive and hopefully alleviating heat problems

That may be a BAD idea! The case of the Xbox is designed with air flow/cooling in mind. If you decase the system and don't add sufficient cooling to the components, you could end up with a dead system. If you put a fan facing the board with a high enough flow rate, you should be fine though.

Donkbaca · « **Reply #23 on:** June 28, 2011, 01:03:16 pm »

Nah, the 360 shuts down when it gets hot. The overheating errors you get are from a design flaw in early 360's due to a combination of poor solder/ poor heat transfer compound on the heat sinks, and odd pressure points on the mobo. It has more to do with a design flaw than actual heat. The 360 has a temp sensor and is designed to shut down before damage is done. The red rings thing is caused by the repeated heating and cooling of the board over time and poor heat transfer, causing the solder joints on the chips to get messed up. It doesn't happen from a one time overheat.If the 360 shuts down due to heat, I'll put a fan in.

Anyhow as I said, you can get a MS refurbed one with a controller, 20gb hard drive and all for 99 bucks. I can sell the controller, HD, and power brick for around 60 bucks or so, so If it takes a dump I am out like 40 bucks or so. Not worried about it. And its not like this thing is going to be on for hours at a time, days on end. It will probably see 4 hours of play a week, on average, in an air conditioned office...

Donkbaca · « **Reply #24 on:** June 28, 2011, 01:08:17 pm »

Decasing it is fine. Just make sure the rear fan and the fan manifold are still connected so that it draws air from the gpu and cpu heat sinks. No need to have a fan blow on them, in fact if you are forcing warm air on them this could be a bad thing. People screw up fans all the time, I have seen so many "this is my intake fan and this is my exhaust fan" mods. Its dumb, the system does not breathe like we do, it does not use the air, the whole point of fans is get rid of heat, you want fans blowing heat away from the system. Decasing it will allow more heat to escape, since it won't be stuck in the case, just make sure there is a fan/fans blowing air AWAY from the heatsinks and you will be golden.

ChadTower · « **Reply #25 on:** June 28, 2011, 01:16:36 pm »

Quote from: saint on June 28, 2011, 12:45:12 pm

Chad had a good idea, I'd be interested to see someone without cooling put a fan in their cabinet before running it, then running it a while, and reporting back on temperature rises.

If I had a MAME cab I'd do it just to satisfy the debate. A remote meat thermometer should do the trick easily. If you have more than one (I do for meat smoking/BBQ) you could even take temps at different spots inside the cabinet.

leapinlew · « **Reply #26 on:** June 28, 2011, 01:22:20 pm »

Quote from: ChadTower on June 28, 2011, 01:16:36 pm

If I had a MAME cab I'd do it just to satisfy the debate.

I think we both know it won't satisfy anything.

alfonzotan · « **Reply #27 on:** June 28, 2011, 01:26:51 pm »

I put a $3 120mm fan in the cab's back panel right behind my CPU (a Core2Duo), and cut a small vent at the top of the cab, with a $2 vent cover from Lowe's. Probably overkill, but it was cheap insurance, and the fan noise is next-to inaudible, especially with two speakers pointed directly at the player's head.

ChadTower · « **Reply #28 on:** June 28, 2011, 01:32:10 pm »

Quote from: leapinlew on June 28, 2011, 01:22:20 pm

Quote from: ChadTower on June 28, 2011, 01:16:36 pm
If I had a MAME cab I'd do it just to satisfy the debate.

I think we both know it won't satisfy anything.

That's what she... no, wait... doh.

FrizzleFried · « **Reply #29 on:** June 28, 2011, 03:50:15 pm »

A single fan at top pulling air out or a single fan at bottom blowing air in is more than sufficient cooling for a MAME cab (unless you're overclocking).

I like to blow air in the bottom (of course with a dust screen attached) creating positive air pressure in the cab... though there is nothing wrong with going with an exhaust fan at top creating negative air pressure. The heat will be removed regardless.

markronz · « **Reply #30 on:** June 28, 2011, 04:39:29 pm »

Quote from: FrizzleFried on June 28, 2011, 03:50:15 pm

I like to blow air in the bottom (of course with a dust screen attached)

ooh dust screen. I never thought of that! That would be nice. What do you use as a dust screen? All I currently have in mine is an exposed fan and thats it.

markronz · « **Reply #31 on:** June 28, 2011, 04:40:29 pm »

Oh and I'm of the same mind as others. I don't really have the time to test a cab with and without a fan or two, but fans are cheap, and I figure why not, it can only help!

gabe · « **Reply #32 on:** June 28, 2011, 04:58:33 pm »

Here's some more non-scientific anecdotal drivel to add to this conversation:

I have a bare motherboard attached to the wall of my cab. It runs 24/7. I have the monitor, marquee, and speakers on a separate switch which I turn off when it's not in use. The cabinet is passively vented. The only cooling comes from the stock OEM CPU/GPU heat sink/fan. The machine has been perfectly reliable up to this point, and I don't anticipate that changing. If it dies a premature death, I'll be sure to report back here.

Donkbaca · « **Reply #33 on:** June 28, 2011, 05:10:46 pm »

If I feel the need to add a fan, I am going to use speaker cloth for my dust screen

boardjunkie · « **Reply #34 on:** June 28, 2011, 05:23:39 pm »

Fan filters are fine, but you gotta check them often to see if they need cleaning. If it gets clogged, that could be bad news....

TOK · « **Reply #35 on:** June 28, 2011, 05:29:39 pm »

Quote from: boardjunkie on June 28, 2011, 10:10:00 am

The vent tube is not overkill, but needed to properly displace warm air and bring in fresh air. If you just leave the pc in there, it will recycle its own exhaust (there's no air movement inside a cab) and run warmer than it should. I've been involved in the amusement industry as a tech for over 20 years, and I know how much a monitor alone can heat up a cab. A PC dissipates far more heat than an arcade board and small switching supply.

So I guess its up to the builder what you want to do. But I would make the extra effort (its not that hard) to keep everything inside the cab as happy as possible if its expected to last and run reliably.

I've been running the same PC in my original MAME cab since 2005, a Pentium 4 I built from used parts already laying around.
Never ran fans, never had an issue. Sometimes its on for an hour, sometimes it runs all day. Cooling fans would just be one more thing to go wrong.

Not running anything but standard fans (CPU, power supply) in their original spots on my other machines, either. No problems.

Donkbaca · « **Reply #36 on:** June 28, 2011, 06:26:38 pm »

So I guess the answer is no, there are no horror stories.

leapinlew · « **Reply #37 on:** June 28, 2011, 07:51:52 pm »

Quote from: Donkbaca on June 28, 2011, 06:26:38 pm

So I guess the answer is no, there are no horror stories.

I got a story. It's about a guy who worried about his cabinet getting too hot. So he connected a couple fans and ran dryer vent tubing inside his cabinet. After all was said and done, he lost several hours that he could've spent PLAYING ARCADE GAMES!

eds1275 · « **Reply #38 on:** June 28, 2011, 09:45:21 pm »

For what it's worth every single audio install I have seen and or worked on pulls cool air in from the bottom [with a fan] and lets it out through the top. And I am talking amplifiers, tube equipment etc - the hot stuff. I have never seen one installed with fans pulling air out from the top. Though it would work, maybe it wouldn't be as effective. I don't know the science behind it.

A pc though? I think adding some fans and or vents is more for piece of mind than really a requirement.

boardjunkie · « **Reply #39 on:** June 28, 2011, 11:18:47 pm »

[/quote]

I got a story. It's about a guy who worried about his cabinet getting too hot. So he connected a couple fans and ran dryer vent tubing inside his cabinet. After all was said and done, he lost several hours that he could've spent PLAYING ARCADE GAMES!

[/quote]

Dude I've played arcade games for more than 30 years and repaired 'em for 20. Its not my top priority in life. Why do you care so much that I want my stuff to last? I'll do it the way I want to, so quitchabitchin.....

You can build a fire in your nifty MAME cab for all I care.....

Donkbaca · « **Reply #40 on:** June 29, 2011, 12:01:54 am »

I've never seen a pc or other electronic device that blows air in, they all exhaust. But people over build their mame cabs all the time

SavannahLion · « **Reply #41 on:** June 29, 2011, 12:24:56 am »

Quote from: eds1275 on June 28, 2011, 09:45:21 pm

For what it's worth every single audio install I have seen and or worked on pulls cool air in from the bottom [with a fan] and lets it out through the top. And I am talking amplifiers, tube equipment etc - the hot stuff. I have never seen one installed with fans pulling air out from the top. Though it would work, maybe it wouldn't be as effective. I don't know the science behind it.

A pc though? I think adding some fans and or vents is more for piece of mind than really a requirement.

What you're describing is a positive pressure system. This is where air is forced into the um... "container" and the exhaust is passive. A negative pressure system is where air is forced out of the container and intake is passive. What you're trying to accomplish determines what type of system you use. Grocery stores use air curtains creating a pseudo positive system to keep flying bugs out. A hospital might use a negative air system to help keep airborne disease inside and to help in a quarantine situation. Most PCs are negative systems (Donkbaca, is correct. IIRC early AT specified intake fans on the PSU ATX changed this to exhaust to... no idea why....) but, IMHO, a positive system is better since it precisely allows you to control intake points and thus, add dust filters.

I've installed fans in both directions as well but I've always leaned towards forcing more air inside than drawing more out.

Donkbaca · « **Reply #42 on:** June 29, 2011, 12:35:55 am »

The reason they exhaust is because the point of the fans is to remove heat, not intake air. The pc doesnt need air to function. If you blew air in and just let it leak out, you run the risk of heat building up as all you are doing is recirculating hot air around the case. The heat sinks radiate heat away from the circuits, warming the air around them the fans blow this hot air out. If you had fans blowing in, you would be blowing this hot air right back on the circuits until it found a way to escape

leapinlew · « **Reply #43 on:** June 29, 2011, 07:42:57 am »

Quote from: boardjunkie on June 28, 2011, 11:18:47 pm

Dude I've played arcade games for more than 30 years and repaired 'em for 20. Its not my top priority in life. Why do you care so much that I want my stuff to last? I'll do it the way I want to, so quitchabitchin.....

You can build a fire in your nifty MAME cab for all I care.....

You've been playing and repairing arcade games for a long time. Big whoop. Who here hasn't.

I was just giving you grief.

SavannahLion · « **Reply #44 on:** June 29, 2011, 11:04:30 am »

Quote from: Donkbaca on June 29, 2011, 12:35:55 am

The reason they exhaust is because the point of the fans is to remove heat, not intake air. The pc doesnt need air to function. If you blew air in and just let it leak out, you run the risk of heat building up as all you are doing is recirculating hot air around the case. The heat sinks radiate heat away from the circuits, warming the air around them the fans blow this hot air out. If you had fans blowing in, you would be blowing this hot air right back on the circuits until it found a way to escape

Sounds to me you're assuming traditional placement of the fans. It would be absurd to draw air IN at the top and expect enough hot air to exhaust at the bottom. Intake fans are placed at the bottom section of a case, vent the top, as long as you avoid a short circuit, you get your air circulation and vent the hot air.

In any case different methods anyways. I use what I need to use.

The way OEMs cut corners with a single case fan (and through the PSU no less) is almost comical.

Donkbaca · « **Reply #45 on:** June 29, 2011, 11:20:25 am »

why do you need to draw air in? I don't think you are using what you need to use, I think you are using what you want to use. Its funny that tech companies spend millions of dollars designing their products, with things like heat dissapation in mind, and we figure that we need to add a 10 dollar fan to keep everything from going super nova....

If it makes you feel better, put a fan in. Its kinda like a night light, it keeps the pretend boogey men away. Doesn't actually help anything, but if it makes you feel better, go for it.

bkenobi · « **Reply #46 on:** June 29, 2011, 11:41:25 am »

Quote from: Donkbaca on June 29, 2011, 11:20:25 am

why do you need to draw air in? I don't think you are using what you need to use, I think you are using what you want to use. Its funny that tech companies spend millions of dollars designing their products, with things like heat dissapation in mind, and we figure that we need to add a 10 dollar fan to keep everything from going super nova....

If it makes you feel better, put a fan in. Its kinda like a night light, it keeps the pretend boogey men away. Doesn't actually help anything, but if it makes you feel better, go for it.

Interesting. I'm a thermal analyst for a multi-billion dollar international company. This is what I do. I guess what I do is funny?

Heat concerns are real and justified, but you have to understand what the goal is. In this case, we have a relatively small heat source in a large air space. If the air starts out cool, even if there is poor ventilation, we will still be able to use the PC for quite a while before there is an issue. If there is designed ventilation, all it has to do is remove more heat than the system is adding. There are local effects that could cause issues, but in general that's the goal.

Modern consoles and laptops have a lot of heat generated with very small air space. As a result, they MUST control their thermal environment. The easiest/cheapest thing to do is to put a heat sink on the chips that generate heat. In the case of these small environments, there isn't enough thermal mass in the air to keep things cool for very long. Thus, they add fans (either intake, outlet, or both) to get fresh ambient air into the case.

In the end, essentially all thermal problems can be solved by providing a large enough deltaT!

Vigo · « **Reply #47 on:** June 29, 2011, 11:48:44 am »

My 2 cents is just have a few air holes and you are more than good. If overheating was such an inevitable issue in a large closed space, you would see a standard of fans mounted on the backs of every armoire style TV cabinet. All their recommendations simply just say to leave a few inches clearance around your different devices and give them room around their ventilation to individually cool themselves. I'm sure if you had 5 hot devices all crammed together in a closed shelf of an armoire, it might have heat issues, but those cases are not common to the normal user.

Something like 1 computer in the bottom of a 5 foot tall wooden box with gaping holes is not a major concern. Otherwise I would feel a temperature rise when i open the back of of my cabinet. somehow its the same temp as outside my cabinet.

Donkbaca · « **Reply #48 on:** June 29, 2011, 11:53:54 am »

AHA! Why are companies spending so much money hiring people like Bkenobi when any jackass just needs to add fans! Stop screwing us on OEM corner cutting Bkenobi! We want to feel the breeze coming off our electronics. I expect my entertainment center to cause a damn mini hurricane when I am running all of that stuff!

Vigo · « **Reply #49 on:** June 29, 2011, 12:06:46 pm »

Quote from: Donkbaca on June 29, 2011, 11:53:54 am

AHA! Why are companies spending so much money hiring people like Bkenobi when any jackass just needs to add fans! Stop screwing us on OEM corner cutting Bkenobi! We want to feel the breeze coming off our electronics. I expect my entertainment center to cause a damn mini hurricane when I am running all of that stuff!

Obviously, by his namesake, we can infer that bkenobi went into thermal engineering in order to design thermal detonators. I'd be careful about that next electronic device you purchase.

leapinlew · « **Reply #50 on:** June 29, 2011, 12:14:58 pm »

Quote from: Vigo on June 29, 2011, 12:06:46 pm

Quote from: Donkbaca on June 29, 2011, 11:53:54 am
AHA! Why are companies spending so much money hiring people like Bkenobi when any jackass just needs to add fans! Stop screwing us on OEM corner cutting Bkenobi! We want to feel the breeze coming off our electronics. I expect my entertainment center to cause a damn mini hurricane when I am running all of that stuff!

Obviously, by his namesake, we can infer that bkenobi went into thermal engineering in order to design thermal detonators. I'd be careful about that next electronic device you purchase.

Bkenobi can't do anything to me. I live in a moon-sized space station with only 1 small vulnerability.

CheffoJeffo · « **Reply #51 on:** June 29, 2011, 12:39:07 pm »

Out of the cabinets that I have had, only two have had fans -- a bartop and a homebrew Midway-styled cocktail, both due to heat from the monitors. No other cocktails and none of the uprights have ever needed a fan.

bkenobi · « **Reply #52 on:** June 29, 2011, 01:03:58 pm »

Quote from: Donkbaca on June 29, 2011, 11:53:54 am

AHA! Why are companies spending so much money hiring people like Bkenobi when any jackass just needs to add fans! Stop screwing us on OEM corner cutting Bkenobi! We want to feel the breeze coming off our electronics. I expect my entertainment center to cause a damn mini hurricane when I am running all of that stuff!

Ever hear that joke about consultants?

A consultant is hired to fix an expensive piece of machinery. He examines the setup for a bit and after 10 minutes takes out a marked and puts an 'X' on a part. He turns to the manager and says "replace this part." A couple days later the bill for the consultant shows up. The manager is outraged to see a single figure of $50,000! He calls up the consultant and asks for an itemized bill. A couple days later a new bill shows up with items called out. Marker..............................$1 Knowing where to place the mark.....$49,999 The bill was promptly paid.

Anyway, I would love to do that with fans, too!

SavannahLion · « **Reply #53 on:** June 29, 2011, 03:48:55 pm »

That's weird. Had a nice long post and I got logged off with an invalid cert. Now some of the thread is missing

saint · « **Reply #54 on:** June 29, 2011, 03:52:36 pm »

Quote from: SavannahLion on June 29, 2011, 03:48:55 pm

That's weird. Had a nice long post and I got logged off with an invalid cert. Now some of the thread is missing

Looks OK to me?

SavannahLion · « **Reply #55 on:** June 29, 2011, 04:10:24 pm »

Thought maybe you messed with the thread?

markronz · « **Reply #56 on:** June 29, 2011, 05:19:58 pm »

Quote from: Donkbaca on June 28, 2011, 06:26:38 pm

So I guess the answer is no, there are no horror stories.

I once dug up an old arcade cabinet that I found buried in my backyard. I spent the better part of a week fixing it up, getting that old beauty whirring again. Finally the moment was at hand, I plugged it in. Rather than the standard BIOS screen to celebrate my success, I was greeted by a...um...cursed circle thingy...

Cursed Circle Thingy...

Chills went through down my spine. Soon after the video completed, I received a phone call. The crackly voice at the other end of the line just said "two days..." and hung up. I spent the next 48 hours digging through old microfiche newspapers at the library, trying to find something that would help, anything to explain this madness. 47.5 hours into my search I found the article...."Cursed arcade machine buried in ancient Indian burial ground!" I immediately called the police and frantically tried to explain what was happening...to no avail. They did not believe me. I sped home, at high speeds, narrowly avoiding car accident after accident. I ran into my house, just as the phone rang. I answered the phone, slowly putting the receiver to my ear. To my horror, I heard screeching, wild noises, of animals being tortured and nails being dragged slowly down chalk boards. I immediately hung up. The phone rang again! I picked up and screamed "Why are you torturing me! I just want to play space invaders!...maybe a little NBA JAM, if there's time!" A voice yelled through the line "Mark! Mark! This is the police! We traced the call, and it came from....INSIDE YOUR ARCADE MACHINE!" I immediate opened up the access panel behind the cabinet. Inside, on top of the computer, was only a note... It read....

Sup Mark, I'm the creepy evil spirit thing, that's hell bent on creeping you out 'n' stuff. You like totally saved the day, I just realized that you installed some exhaust fans in here. I feel soooo much better now, thank you for doing that. I wasn't really cursed, I was just like hot in here.

The End. Crisis averted. Exhaust fans worked for me.

ChadTower · « **Reply #57 on:** June 29, 2011, 06:16:35 pm »

Quote from: bkenobi on June 29, 2011, 11:41:25 am

Interesting. I'm a thermal analyst for a multi-billion dollar international company. This is what I do. I guess what I do is funny?

NSFW

The Goodfellas - Funny how??

Gray_Area · « **Reply #58 on:** June 30, 2011, 12:37:27 am »

Quote from: Dazz on June 28, 2011, 12:53:16 am

I have normal CPU cooler and case fans on the PC in my cab. Small air vents in the cabinet. The cabinet sits in my garage where temps during the summer hit 115f degrees... I've had no issues in 5 years. Of course the PC has been upgraded a couple times in 5 years, but still no issues.

It wouldn't be turned on, because I sure wouldn't be out there playing it at that temperature.

If adding fans, put them at the top. It's easier to pull air in than force it in, and you get greater exchange. Or another way, notice PC case fans blow out?

Donkbaca · « **Reply #59 on:** June 30, 2011, 12:42:51 am »

Any horror stories of someone over ventilating their name cab?

eds1275 · « **Reply #60 on:** June 30, 2011, 01:09:01 am »

Quote from: Donkbaca on June 30, 2011, 12:42:51 am

Any horror stories of someone over ventilating their name cab?

I like to think my cab is pretty cool as it is!

Paul Olson · « **Reply #61 on:** June 30, 2011, 01:50:47 am »

I had a core2duo in mine, and my overclock was definitely affected by being in the cab. Outside of the cab, I was a little over 4GHz, but could only keep it stable at 3.6GHz inside the cab. I don't know if a fan would have helped though. It stayed at a pretty constant temp though. the computer was on for months at a time (turned off the arcade monitor when not in use though), and never had any issues.

bkenobi · « **Reply #62 on:** June 30, 2011, 11:15:05 am »

Some fans blow some suck. The fans at the back of your system (PSU and system fans) are typically designed as exhaust fans. They suck air OUT of the case out into the room. Fans on the front of a case (hard drive coolers for instance) are typically going to blow air past the HDD INTO the case. As far as heat transfer goes. both methods work equally. This is convection and the primary drivers in that form of heat transfer are flow speed and delta temperature. The equation is:

q=h*A*dT

where,
h = film coefficient (driven by flow speed, geometry, etc)
A = surface area
dT = difference in temperature between air and surface temperatures

The direction of the flow makes little difference (it's factored in with h, but a forced convection flow is really independent of what direction the flow moves). The area is pretty important, obviously, but it's set by the hardware in the system. The delta temperature is also critical as you get no heat transfer if the air inside the case is the same as the component being cooled. Increasing the velocity is good, but can make for more noise which is potentially bad.

Anyway, my point is that whether the fan blows air in or sucks air out, it really doesn't make as much difference as you would think. Now, if I were designing the flow, I'd use exhaust fans or else add fans pointing at components to make sure there was forced flow in those areas.

That'll be $50,000. Who should I send the bill to?

Vigo · « **Reply #63 on:** June 30, 2011, 11:44:05 am »

Quote from: bkenobi on June 30, 2011, 11:15:05 am

Some fans blow some suck.

Not to be nitpicky, but don't all fans suck and blow at the same time? I get that some fans are designed to blow, and some were born to suck, but to get things flowing, a fan has to always suck from one end and blow on the other end. It's just kinda basic physics.

OK, this post is sounding very, very wrong. I better stop right now.

Donkbaca · « **Reply #64 on:** June 30, 2011, 11:53:35 am »

Who needs physics when you have consultants? I let them handle all the sucking and blowing and just sit back and enjoy their work...

TOK · « **Reply #65 on:** June 30, 2011, 11:54:15 am »

Quote from: bkenobi on June 30, 2011, 11:15:05 am

That'll be $50,000. Who should I send the bill to?

Maybe someone who lived in the 1500's? I don't know who else doesn't already know fans cool things.

TOK · « **Reply #66 on:** June 30, 2011, 01:32:44 pm »

Quote from: pinballjim on June 30, 2011, 12:56:55 pm

Uhm, fans don't actually cool anything.

boardjunkie · « **Reply #67 on:** June 30, 2011, 01:39:18 pm »

Hah....right. The fan itself don't cool things, the air it moves does. I guess you could say it indirectly cools components.

But....its a stupid idea to use a fan in your game cabs so don't bother...

SavannahLion · « **Reply #68 on:** June 30, 2011, 02:45:11 pm »

Quote from: Vigo on June 30, 2011, 11:44:05 am

Quote from: bkenobi on June 30, 2011, 11:15:05 am
Some fans blow some suck.

Not to be nitpicky, but don't all fans suck and blow at the same time? I get that some fans are designed to blow, and some were born to suck, but to get things flowing, a fan has to always suck from one end and blow on the other end. It's just kinda basic physics.

OK, this post is sounding very, very wrong. I better stop right now.

In a general sense yes, but there is some physics and installation considerations that govern this frame of logic. Namely, that air is lazy as it moves about. In other words, it's possible to screw yourself if you install a CPU fan backwards.

Quote from: TOK on June 30, 2011, 01:32:44 pm

Quote from: pinballjim on June 30, 2011, 12:56:55 pm
Uhm, fans don't actually cool anything.

Fans actually add heat, its the "wind chill factor" that does the actual cooling. Admittedly the heat a fan adds is microscopic when you're talking the temperatures found in a PC.

FrizzleFried · « **Reply #69 on:** June 30, 2011, 03:03:00 pm »

Quote from: Donkbaca on June 29, 2011, 12:01:54 am

I've never seen a pc or other electronic device that blows air in, they all exhaust. But people over build their mame cabs all the time

Dunno what PC's you're looking at but just about every PC I've ever built (as I don't buy pre-boxed crap) has one or more spots up at the front bottom of the case to put a fan or two to suck air in and blow over the hard drives...

FrizzleFried · « **Reply #70 on:** June 30, 2011, 03:04:03 pm »

Quote from: Donkbaca on June 29, 2011, 12:35:55 am

The reason they exhaust is because the point of the fans is to remove heat, not intake air. The pc doesnt need air to function. If you blew air in and just let it leak out, you run the risk of heat building up as all you are doing is recirculating hot air around the case. The heat sinks radiate heat away from the circuits, warming the air around them the fans blow this hot air out. If you had fans blowing in, you would be blowing this hot air right back on the circuits until it found a way to escape

Sorry Don... but you are wrong.

BTW - How many PC's have you built? I'm up to about 80 or so.

gabe · « **Reply #71 on:** June 30, 2011, 03:15:43 pm »

Quote from: ChadTower on June 29, 2011, 06:16:35 pm

Quote from: bkenobi on June 29, 2011, 11:41:25 am
Interesting. I'm a thermal analyst for a multi-billion dollar international company. This is what I do. I guess what I do is funny?

NSFW

The Goodfellas - Funny how??

This may be the only worthwhile post in this entire thread. I LOL'd.

alfonzotan · « **Reply #72 on:** June 30, 2011, 03:19:56 pm »

Quote from: bkenobi on June 30, 2011, 11:15:05 am

Some fans blow some suck. The fans at the back of your system (PSU and system fans) are typically designed as exhaust fans. They suck air OUT of the case out into the room. Fans on the front of a case (hard drive coolers for instance) are typically going to blow air past the HDD INTO the case. As far as heat transfer goes. both methods work equally. This is convection and the primary drivers in that form of heat transfer are flow speed and delta temperature. The equation is:

q=h*A*dT

where,
h = film coefficient (driven by flow speed, geometry, etc)
A = surface area
dT = difference in temperature between air and surface temperatures

The direction of the flow makes little difference (it's factored in with h, but a forced convection flow is really independent of what direction the flow moves). The area is pretty important, obviously, but it's set by the hardware in the system. The delta temperature is also critical as you get no heat transfer if the air inside the case is the same as the component being cooled. Increasing the velocity is good, but can make for more noise which is potentially bad.

Anyway, my point is that whether the fan blows air in or sucks air out, it really doesn't make as much difference as you would think. Now, if I were designing the flow, I'd use exhaust fans or else add fans pointing at components to make sure there was forced flow in those areas.

That'll be $50,000. Who should I send the bill to?

These aren't the fans we're looking for. Move along...

Vigo · « **Reply #73 on:** June 30, 2011, 03:36:49 pm »

Quote from: FrizzleFried on June 30, 2011, 03:04:03 pm

Quote from: Donkbaca on June 29, 2011, 12:35:55 am
The reason they exhaust is because the point of the fans is to remove heat, not intake air. The pc doesnt need air to function. If you blew air in and just let it leak out, you run the risk of heat building up as all you are doing is recirculating hot air around the case. The heat sinks radiate heat away from the circuits, warming the air around them the fans blow this hot air out. If you had fans blowing in, you would be blowing this hot air right back on the circuits until it found a way to escape

Sorry Don... but you are wrong.

BTW - How many PC's have you built? I'm up to about 80 or so.

Fans that blow in are generally more of a complimentary fan to increase circulation. Blowing out is generally much more efficient because it anything that blocks the path of an inward flowing fan decreases it's efficiency. A stray ribbon cable or awkward riser card can destroy the air flow of a computer with only inward fans. Fans blowing out pull more evenly from the entire space inside the computer.

Donkbaca · « **Reply #74 on:** June 30, 2011, 03:38:34 pm »

Haha... Ive built my share of pcs. Just because youve done things over and over doesnt mean you are doin it right. I guess we are all just smarter than those people with the fancy degrees that manufacture and sell these things to the public.

bkenobi · « **Reply #75 on:** June 30, 2011, 05:45:59 pm »

Quote from: Vigo on June 30, 2011, 11:44:05 am

Not to be nitpicky, but don't all fans suck and blow at the same time? I get that some fans are designed to blow, and some were born to suck, but to get things flowing, a fan has to always suck from one end and blow on the other end. It's just kinda basic physics.

Point of reference. If you are talking about a fan sitting out in the open where the domain is both sides, then yes a fan both sucks and blows. However, if your analysis domain has the fan mounted on the boundary, then the fan would either suck or blow. In reality though, the difference is moot as the analysis doesn't care what you call it, it just cares what the sign on the velocity is (which direction the velocity vector points).

ark_ader · « **Reply #76 on:** June 30, 2011, 06:38:02 pm »

Any horror stories about not properly ventilating a CPU?

This makes my laugh every time.

ark_ader · « **Reply #77 on:** June 30, 2011, 06:42:42 pm »

Any horror stories about not ventilating a video card?

SavannahLion · « **Reply #78 on:** June 30, 2011, 08:49:43 pm »

Quote from: Donkbaca on June 30, 2011, 03:38:34 pm

Haha... Ive built my share of pcs. Just because youve done things over and over doesnt mean you are doin it right. I guess we are all just smarter than those people with the fancy degrees that manufacture and sell these things to the public.

Those guys are under different pressures than we are. The first constraint is cost which is considered almost foremost into their design decisions. IIRC, the target temp for ATX boxes 40C an increase from earlier specs of 38C. A change attributed to higher thermal tolerances of PC components but I think it's just as likely cost is a major factor in that design change.

My point is, engineers don't make design decisions, Bean Counters do. Take a look at the cheap ---smurfy--- Chinese caps that flooded the market. Do you think any honest EE would spec them in a design if cost wasn't the primary consideration? Take a look at the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- eye-candy fans flooding the market with their absurdly low CFM ratings, assuming they're rated at all.

Besides if any of you

are worth your salt, you'll apply the appropriate technique anyways, or experiment with both and analyze the outcome.

Donkbaca · « **Reply #79 on:** June 30, 2011, 10:55:26 pm »

Benkenobi. Can you please explain how not including a 3 dollar intake fan blows the profitability on my 1500 gaming rig? Damn bean counters!

emb · « **Reply #80 on:** July 01, 2011, 12:16:40 am »

Quote from: SavannahLion on June 30, 2011, 08:49:43 pm

Quote from: Donkbaca on June 30, 2011, 03:38:34 pm
Haha... Ive built my share of pcs. Just because youve done things over and over doesnt mean you are doin it right. I guess we are all just smarter than those people with the fancy degrees that manufacture and sell these things to the public.

My point is, engineers don't make design decisions, Bean Counters do.

I think of it more as the bean counters are what limits our options for design. (I don't mean to split hairs or derail....I just couldn't resist

)

SavannahLion · « **Reply #81 on:** July 01, 2011, 01:13:29 am »

Quote from: Donkbaca on June 30, 2011, 10:55:26 pm

Benkenobi. Can you please explain how not including a 3 dollar intake fan blows the profitability on my 1500 gaming rig? Damn bean counters!

I'm not Ben but I'll answer this anyways. It's pure economics of scale. Read up on Muntzing and educate yourself.

lastrega · « **Reply #82 on:** July 01, 2011, 01:37:08 am »

I think fans are a must if you use an lcd monitor, they alone can cause massive heat buildup...... I put 2 intake fans on the rear and 4 output fans, near the top on my cocktail,( no dryer hose though:) ) and boy I am glad I did...... I can open my access panel even on a cool day in maine..... it gets warm in there, thanks mostly to my 32" lcd....... my four output fans are only inches from my lcd and they are more than enough to suck the heat out.... I am sure that if I would not have planned ahead my lcd would have been toast in a month......And I used all blue led fans to add a groovalicious look. and not to mention with 6 four led fans in there , I did not need a service light inside:)...... but as stated before , cheap insurance.........FANS

bkenobi · « **Reply #83 on:** July 01, 2011, 01:43:45 am »

Quote from: SavannahLion on July 01, 2011, 01:13:29 am

Quote from: Donkbaca on June 30, 2011, 10:55:26 pm
Benkenobi. Can you please explain how not including a 3 dollar intake fan blows the profitability on my 1500 gaming rig? Damn bean counters!

I'm not Ben but I'll answer this anyways. It's pure economics of scale. Read up on Muntzing and educate yourself.

Exactly! You're not thinking about the big picture here. One fan may only cost $3, but then you have to multiply that out by 10,000 since that's your projected production run. We can't take a $30,000 hit on this project, so the fan has to be left out. Sorry, the end user will just have to understand there may be a few minor limitations.

BruceM · « **Reply #84 on:** July 01, 2011, 07:06:41 am »

fans are must in properly ventilation. at least at myself

dunno, it is a big question, beacuse there is almost always financial limit. fan is a good option. there is another but more expensive options.

Donkbaca · « **Reply #85 on:** July 01, 2011, 09:46:30 am »

You guys totally misunderstand the concept of economies of scale. Economies of scale have to do with advantages brought about through size that make production CHEAPER. If you were to use the above example, you could leverage your buying power and get those 10,000 fans for leas than 3 bucks a pop. Plus, if you were selling 10,000 of them you would totally take a hit if 30k because at 1,000 bucks a pop, you are talking about 10 MILLION dollars in revenue, 30k out of ten million is nothing. The only way a bean counter would get involved would be if there was some sort of cost benefit analysis thy would show that the projected warranty costs and lost good will from excluding the fan and making an inferior product would be less than the cost of adding the fan. That would involve hours of work and an engineer testing and evaluating a build with a fan and without. The cost of even DOING this analysis would be more than 30k. So no, it's not bean counting. Come on guys

ChadTower · « **Reply #86 on:** July 01, 2011, 10:17:02 am »

That's a nice theoretical explanation. It doesn't actually work that way in the real world. In the real world you get an arbitrary budget number to hit. You get technical requirements to meet. You start to work on the project and the requirements are increased. Then the budget office "matrixes" two of your resources so they are now 50% instead of 100%. Then another resource goes on unexpected 6 week leave to India. Then the requirements are increased again. The budget is never, ever increased. Corners get cut to meet the date. Often times the corners that get cut are the ones for which the analysis has not yet been done and do not directly affect functionality. Stuff like cooling fans.

SavannahLion · « **Reply #87 on:** July 01, 2011, 10:48:25 am »

Quote from: Donkbaca on July 01, 2011, 09:46:30 am

You guys totally misunderstand the concept of economies of scale. Economies of scale have to do with advantages brought about through size that make production CHEAPER. If you were to use the above example, you could leverage your buying power and get those 10,000 fans for leas than 3 bucks a pop. Plus, if you were selling 10,000 of them you would totally take a hit if 30k because at 1,000 bucks a pop, you are talking about 10 MILLION dollars in revenue, 30k out of ten million is nothing. The only way a bean counter would get involved would be if there was some sort of cost benefit analysis thy would show that the projected warranty costs and lost good will from excluding the fan and making an inferior product would be less than the cost of adding the fan. That would involve hours of work and an engineer testing and evaluating a build with a fan and without. The cost of even DOING this analysis would be more than 30k. So no, it's not bean counting. Come on guys

Quit digging your own grave. By your argument there would be no incentive for cost reductions and refinements in production electronics outside of bug fixes. That kind of analysis (assuming any analysis was done by engineer at all) to reduce costs happens all the time. Why do you think there are something on the order of 12 board revisions for the 2600? The first Heavy Sixers worked beautifully. Yet even before the consoles release, Atari was cuttings corners. To take a more modern example: Why do you think Sony and Microsoft have multiple console revisions? To cut costs.

This goes right back to Muntzing (did you read that link I gave you?). 1/8 of a penny here. $3 here. Getting rid of a wire there. Consolidate a couple of ICs. Across half a million units of product X, by a company that probably produces millions or billions of units of a thousand different products all across the spectrum and those numbers add up.

SavannahLion · « **Reply #88 on:** July 01, 2011, 11:08:51 am »

I'm not debating donkbaca's purchasing in volume example but it paints an incomplete picture of what happens with large scale production and why a fan that details for $3 is potentially left out.

Donkbaca · « **Reply #89 on:** July 01, 2011, 11:14:54 am »

I am not saying that these things DON'T happen, but they don't happen to prevent putting on a 3 dollar fan and save 30,000 dollars. You are right, revisions happen all the time to cut costs, but you're idea of costs only has to do with components. MS revised the xbox so that it didn't RROD as easily, that cut costs because it reduced the warranty exposure that MS had. Costs get further reduced through... wait for it.. economies of scale, whereby a company, like MS, can use its negotiating power to negotiate better deals from suppliers. Costs also get reduced through mass production, the learning curve theory of production, there are LOTS of ways costs get reduced. What I am saying does NOT happen, at least in succesful companies, is that the end all be all in product design is done by some analyst or accountant saying, "you know if we just got rid of that 3 dollar component..."

Your whole argument is that cost cutting results in lower quality products, now you give an example, the xbox 360, where costs were cut and a SUPERIOR product was made. Another problem is that this is assuming that companies care mostly about cost, and they don't they care about profit. THe cost of inputs is just one component of cost.

If that three dollar fan REALLY was that important, then a competitor would think, " hey, we should add that fan to our $1,000 pc. Yeah it would increase the cost by 0.03% but it would give us and advantage over company Y because our machines would last longer. This is how MOST companies make it in this world, by competing on differentiation rather than just price, and when it comes to a lot of consumer goods, especially the more pricey ones, quality is more important to the consumer than price. Lets say this fan will increase the reliability and life of my product. I add the fan, sell it for $1,100 market it to people out there as, "buy my pc, it will last longer and be reliable." The utility we are talking about here that we are attributing to the fan; longer life and better stability; are worth a LOT to the consumer, we could EASILY charge a huge premium on this if it were true.

Believe what you want to believe

bkenobi · « **Reply #90 on:** July 01, 2011, 11:26:47 am »

WARNING...none of this applies to arcade cabs!

FWIW, auto manufacturers scrutinize over fractions of a penny on fasteners. They use those fasteners everywhere, so that fraction of a penny does become important for their bottom line.

Some industries don't get to cut corners. Look at any gov't contract or product that is used for mass transportation. These things require that pretty much all parts go through expensive testing and typically cost more per unit than the retail market would bare. A fan that costs $3 for joe consumer would cost $50 if it were installed on an airplane for example. In fact, I've seen where stuff that has nothing to do with the product being sold is rediculously expensive even when thousands are needed. My company regularly pays several hundred USD for hard drives that I can pick up from NewEgg for <<$100.

boardjunkie · « **Reply #91 on:** July 01, 2011, 12:20:23 pm »

I can't believe the Madman Muntz reference. Thats great someone remembers this now legendary cheapskate. He had *no* problem sacrificing performance for profit.....to the point of the sets ending up barely operable.....

yotsuya · « **Reply #92 on:** July 01, 2011, 12:54:42 pm »

Quote from: SavannahLion on July 01, 2011, 01:13:29 am

Quote from: Donkbaca on June 30, 2011, 10:55:26 pm
Benkenobi. Can you please explain how not including a 3 dollar intake fan blows the profitability on my 1500 gaming rig? Damn bean counters!

I'm not Ben but I'll answer this anyways. It's pure economics of scale. Read up on Muntzing and educate yourself.

Thanks for the Muntz link. Made for some fun reading!

ChadTower · « **Reply #93 on:** July 01, 2011, 01:02:18 pm »

Quote from: yotsuya on July 01, 2011, 12:54:42 pm

Quote from: SavannahLion on July 01, 2011, 01:13:29 am
Quote from: Donkbaca on June 30, 2011, 10:55:26 pm
Benkenobi. Can you please explain how not including a 3 dollar intake fan blows the profitability on my 1500 gaming rig? Damn bean counters!

I'm not Ben but I'll answer this anyways. It's pure economics of scale. Read up on Muntzing and educate yourself.

Thanks for the Muntz link. Made for some fun reading!

Donkbaca · « **Reply #94 on:** July 01, 2011, 01:09:02 pm »

I guess you have all figured out the manufacturing business. Damn business school, you were such a waste of time....

SavannahLion · « **Reply #95 on:** July 01, 2011, 01:18:57 pm »

Yep, looks like a total waste for you.

The picture you're painting is getting better but still incomplete.

Donkbaca · « **Reply #96 on:** July 01, 2011, 01:27:38 pm »

Your own article about Muntz talks about how his philosophy backfired, consumers turned against him and he went bankrupt. It concludes with saying that the example isn't even applicable today because the costs associated are so small they aren't worth fighting over. Which is pretty much what I have been saying.

I don't see how you can point to that article and say, "this is why we need to add a fan to a MAME cab." Or am i missing something?

yotsuya · « **Reply #97 on:** July 01, 2011, 01:42:04 pm »

Quote from: ChadTower on July 01, 2011, 01:02:18 pm

Quote from: yotsuya on July 01, 2011, 12:54:42 pm
Quote from: SavannahLion on July 01, 2011, 01:13:29 am
Quote from: Donkbaca on June 30, 2011, 10:55:26 pm
Benkenobi. Can you please explain how not including a 3 dollar intake fan blows the profitability on my 1500 gaming rig? Damn bean counters!

I'm not Ben but I'll answer this anyways. It's pure economics of scale. Read up on Muntzing and educate yourself.

Thanks for the Muntz link. Made for some fun reading!

Yeah, I know, but I'm a sucker for biographies...

Woodshop Flunky · « **Reply #98 on:** July 01, 2011, 01:51:28 pm »

Quote from: markronz on June 29, 2011, 05:19:58 pm

Quote from: Donkbaca on June 28, 2011, 06:26:38 pm
So I guess the answer is no, there are no horror stories.

I once dug up an old arcade cabinet that I found buried in my backyard. I spent the better part of a week fixing it up, getting that old beauty whirring again. Finally the moment was at hand, I plugged it in. Rather than the standard BIOS screen to celebrate my success, I was greeted by a...um...cursed circle thingy...

Cursed Circle Thingy...

Chills went through down my spine. Soon after the video completed, I received a phone call. The crackly voice at the other end of the line just said "two days..." and hung up. I spent the next 48 hours digging through old microfiche newspapers at the library, trying to find something that would help, anything to explain this madness. 47.5 hours into my search I found the article...."Cursed arcade machine buried in ancient Indian burial ground!" I immediately called the police and frantically tried to explain what was happening...to no avail. They did not believe me. I sped home, at high speeds, narrowly avoiding car accident after accident. I ran into my house, just as the phone rang. I answered the phone, slowly putting the receiver to my ear. To my horror, I heard screeching, wild noises, of animals being tortured and nails being dragged slowly down chalk boards. I immediately hung up. The phone rang again! I picked up and screamed "Why are you torturing me! I just want to play space invaders!...maybe a little NBA JAM, if there's time!" A voice yelled through the line "Mark! Mark! This is the police! We traced the call, and it came from....INSIDE YOUR ARCADE MACHINE!" I immediate opened up the access panel behind the cabinet. Inside, on top of the computer, was only a note... It read....

Sup Mark, I'm the creepy evil spirit thing, that's hell bent on creeping you out 'n' stuff. You like totally saved the day, I just realized that you installed some exhaust fans in here. I feel soooo much better now, thank you for doing that. I wasn't really cursed, I was just like hot in here.

The End. Crisis averted. Exhaust fans worked for me.

I can't believe nobody commented on this post!

I thought it was funny!

Donkbaca · « **Reply #99 on:** July 01, 2011, 04:16:02 pm »

Agreed. Now if you all will excuse me, I have some business cards to print up.

Joe Bruckheimer - Dolphin Trainer

Vigo · « **Reply #100 on:** July 01, 2011, 04:23:22 pm »

Quote from: pinballjim on July 01, 2011, 02:46:05 pm

Believe it or not, this forum used to be fun.

Yeah, and remember when a bowl of soup was a nickel?

ChadTower · « **Reply #101 on:** July 01, 2011, 04:27:28 pm »

Quote from: Vigo on July 01, 2011, 04:23:22 pm

Yeah, and remember when a bowl of soup was a nickel?

This is the worst-looking hat I ever saw. What, when you buy a hat like this I bet you get a free bowl of soup, huh? Oh, it looks good on you though.

emb · « **Reply #102 on:** July 01, 2011, 06:06:03 pm »

All hop on the derail boat!

I'm really enjoying this debate.

Gray_Area · « **Reply #103 on:** July 04, 2011, 10:16:54 pm »

Fans spin. Whichever way you point them means air goes thataway.

Quote from: Woodshop Flunky on July 01, 2011, 01:51:28 pm

Quote from: markronz on June 29, 2011, 05:19:58 pm
I once dug up an old arcade cabinet...The End. Crisis averted. Exhaust fans worked for me.

I can't believe nobody commented on this post! I thought it was funny!

I missed it, too. Pretty good.

atomikbohm · « **Reply #104 on:** August 05, 2011, 08:29:58 pm »

While we are at it why don't we discuss:

1) Giving Microsoft government contracts for products that aren't finished (what service pack is windows xp, vista, 7, up to now? MS Office same question)
2) Give trickle down economics another try but let's try it with a couple trillion dollars this time. (The problem with the previous attempts was that there just wasn't enough money to make it all the way to the bottom.)
3) Warren Jeffs, what's the big deal.

(That ought to do it Money, Sex and Politics ... and that's just number 2)

(... Thermo nuclear thread detonation in 5...4...3...2...

)


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