HI-SCORE: worldwide sharing & public competitions (easy way)

[torino]

I've heard people have been successful in sharing high scores over internet with "Dropbox" (virtual on-line folder), which works transparently with MAME as if high score files were actually stored on a local disk. http://www.dropbox.com/

How about we open Dropbox account to serve as some kind of official BYOAC/MAME scoreboard server? Something like Twin Galaxies, but simpler, completely automatic and without need to have judges, maybe even spice it with weekly competitions and daily challenges, add user ratings, statistics... and what not?


C O M P E T I T I O N, it is the only aspect of "arcade nostalgia" that is still missing from MAME. That feeling of beating a high score is not quite the same if no one is there to see it, and especially if the score you just beaten is not your own. Can this be "emulated", can we make this?

[Nephasth]

That would be cool. But I would never have my MAME computer hooked to the interwebs. I would be willing to upload from a flash drive, but that wouldn't be real time.

[torino]

What do you mean, what is it you dislike about having internet connection?

[ptinolv]

I like the idea.

Does it require that everyone uses the same Mame version ? It may be also hard to control cheating.

[newmanfamilyvlogs]

It would be impossible to control cheating.

fixed that for you.

[Dazz]

Over on the HyperSpin site we have something called HyperScore that member Rain is currently building.

HyperScore - Sync Mame Scores With Thousands of Users!


This app does NOT use dropbox.  The files are stored on a server and then sync'd to other players upon launch.  The app has some basic cheat detection and more being worked on.  It can detect when a cheat was activated in MAME.  We are actually planning on a leaderboard type system.  Right now the app is in an early alpha test.  A few select people have access right now, but it will be available for HyperSpin members in the future. 

[torino]

I like the idea.

Does it require that everyone uses the same Mame version ?

I think hi-score files are compatible across many versions of MAME, say as much as ROMs are, and as long as that's true people could use different -but compatible- versions without fear of corrupting the database, although it would probably be much better to have a single common build so to provide exact same gameplay standard for everyone, to facilitate possible extensions and make it easier to troubleshoot.

It would be impossible to control cheating.

fixed that for you.

Maybe there is an easy way to control cheating, perhaps we could prevent or at least discourage it by recording gameplay and uploading the "movie" along with updating hi-score database, automatically. That would not make it cheat-proof but everyone else would be able to verify recordings, which I think are impossible to fake, and it would be interesting to actually see what others are doing, study different techniques, learn the winning patterns and tricks, then improve and ultimately do better.

I particularly like the idea to have little challenges, for example 90 seconds "point pressing" or "speed run" type of mini contests, or some kind of arcade triathlon where you play three different games for some limited amount of time and combine the score from all three, or maybe some type of trick-challenge where you have to play in some non-standard way, like those trick-shots in billiard, or some stuff like that to make practice between the tournaments more fun.

[torino]

Over on the HyperSpin site we have something called HyperScore that member Rain is currently building.

HyperScore - Sync Mame Scores With Thousands of Users!


This app does NOT use dropbox.  The files are stored on a server and then sync'd to other players upon launch.  The app has some basic cheat detection and more being worked on.  It can detect when a cheat was activated in MAME.  We are actually planning on a leaderboard type system.  Right now the app is in an early alpha test.  A few select people have access right now, but it will be available for HyperSpin members in the future. 

That's great, but is there any advantage in using that over Dropbox?

What kind of server it uses, is it static file holder as Dropbox, is it free?

What is the minimum system requirements necessary to run HyperScore?

[Nephasth]

What do you mean, what is it you dislike about having internet connection?

we could prevent or at least discourage it by recording gameplay and uploading the "movie" along with updating hi-score database, automatically.

Well, there's one reason I hadn't thought of before that I definitely don't want on my machine.

[Harakiri]

What do you mean, what is it you dislike about having internet connection?

we could prevent or at least discourage it by recording gameplay and uploading the "movie" along with updating hi-score database, automatically.

Well, there's one reason I hadn't thought of before that I definitely don't want on my machine.

Eventhough one can't estimate the universe of players willing to benefit of this system, wouldn't it clog the servers? Can you imagine thousands of videos being uploaded on a daily basis being kept as proof for everyone to download..? 

[ptinolv]

I think the problem with dropbox is that everyone has the same read/write rights on the files. It may become complicated with a lot of players (delete, etc.). If I understood correctly, Hyperscore has the files on a server and don't let the clients mess with it directly.

I am not sure how Hyperscore deals with conflicts, but with a lot of users in dropbox we may end up with some of them (http://www.dropbox.com/help/36). Meaning that some scores may not be taken into account.

Can you imagine thousands of videos being uploaded on a daily basis being kept as proof for everyone to download..?  

That doesn't really solve anything, but I think Mame has INP recording that are not that big.

[torino]

What do you mean, what is it you dislike about having internet connection?

we could prevent or at least discourage it by recording gameplay and uploading the "movie" along with updating hi-score database, automatically.

Well, there's one reason I hadn't thought of before that I definitely don't want on my machine.

Why not? I don't understand what are you talking about. What's wrong with having internet connection, recording game input or sharing files?

[torino]

Eventhough one can't estimate the universe of players willing to benefit of this system, wouldn't it clog the servers? Can you imagine thousands of videos being uploaded on a daily basis being kept as proof for everyone to download..? 

Millions of people already share their videos, photos and whatever type of files over the internet, and somehow many of those file hosting services are free, so I think it's reasonable to expect we could too find some free server to suit our purpose which would support thousands and possibly many more users.

These "recordings" are not actual videos but only input (keystrokes) and initial state from which MAME constructs the video by using real-time emulation, so the files are very small and can be compressed very well. We could also limit the database to hold recordings for only certain number of top places, we could limit the number of games and each game, each tournament and each competition could have separate account, not just separate folder, so to offload the traffic to many different "clouds", in this so called "cloud networking", if necessary.

[torino]

I think the problem with dropbox is that everyone has the same read/write rights on the files. It may become complicated with a lot of players (delete, etc.). If I understood correctly, Hyperscore has the files on a server and don't let the clients mess with it directly.

I am not sure how Hyperscore deals with conflicts, but with a lot of users in dropbox we may end up with some of them (http://www.dropbox.com/help/36). Meaning that some scores may not be taken into account.

Yes, perhaps Dropbox is not ideal solution, it's just that people who actually did this experiment decided to use that particular server provider, and it turned out it was good enough while extremely easy to set up. Maybe some kind of ftp server would be better, and perhaps we could even use yahoo mail and share hi-score files by logging to a common email account. Whatever the case I'd like to hear about all possibilities and if there is any better solution.

On the other hand we could always fix the problem with multiple simultaneous file access by programing things on the client side, so we could make addition to our MAME build, or front-end, that would check if there was any problem with last server access and simply repeat upload/download until successful.

Reading the same file at the same time by more than one user is fine, it's only troublesome when we need to write, make changes, but that would only happen when someone break some record, which shouldn't really happen all that often, while input ("movie") recordings would be written only once and could then be accessed (read-only) by many users simultaneously without any problem.

[Gray_Area]

It would be as if we were all are playing on one and the same computer, anyone could set a new record at any time and everyone else would be able to know about it in real time.

I don't think people are checking BYOAC competition scores on their phones at two in the morning.

[wweumina]

It would be as if we were all are playing on one and the same computer, anyone could set a new record at any time and everyone else would be able to know about it in real time.

I don't think people are checking BYOAC competition scores on their phones at two in the morning.

Lol, I just read the current high score thread.

Sent from my phone at 11pm.

[ptinolv]

My main problem with this,  is that i am not very good at video games   Meaning that quickly I will just see an unreachable top 10 (more or less depending on the games) of people I don't know.

It would be nice to have a server that gather high scores from everybody, extract the scores (with hitotext for instance) and put it in an online database. Like that I would see that I am ranked 92 over 200 people at donkey kong for instance. I would keep my local hiscore.  It would also be possible to have ranking by countries or access this ranking from the frontend.

[spoot]

It would be nice to have a server that gather high scores from everybody, extract the scores (with hitotext for instance) and put it in an online database. Like that I would see that I am ranked 92 over 200 people at donkey kong for instance. I would keep my local hiscore.  It would also be possible to have ranking by countries or access this ranking from the frontend.

I've been contemplating doing sumthing like this today.  The HyperSpin/HyperScore boys have no interest in Mac or Linux so I'm pondering the feasibility of one that does all three os's on my own.  My webdesign sucks though.   

[newmanfamilyvlogs]

I would be much more interested in a system that generates game lists based on 'what's popular' among people participating...

something parses log files, or run time instances, or whatever to determine what games i've played, sends that play count to a server, then spits back out a list file for my front end (hyperspin, mala, maximus, atmoic, flat xml, whatever) of the popular games this week, month, etc. Maybe even other lists like 'Games played by less than 3 people' or something.

That way I'd always have a list of new games to try.

[leapinlew]

What do you mean, what is it you dislike about having internet connection?

My Mame systems are closed systems. They do not require Microsoft updates, antivirus updates, etc. This means the system is more stable than a system that is constantly randomly adding updated software. If I allowed an internet connection, I would have to worry about malware, worms, viruses, etc.

[spoot]

My boredom so-far today produced this...........

[ptinolv]

[...]  that play count to a server, then spits back out a list file for my front end (hyperspin, mala, maximus, atmoic, flat xml, whatever) of the popular games this week, month, etc. [...]

Gameex seems to count the plays, because it has a list of popular games.

My boredom so-far today produced this...........

Is it just the interface or is there something behind ?

[torino]

It would be as if we were all are playing on one and the same computer, anyone could set a new record at any time and everyone else would be able to know about it in real time.

I don't think people are checking BYOAC competition scores on their phones at two in the morning.

I have no idea what are you talking about. I am talking about how to avoid any "checking" and make it all automatic, make it all happen right on your cabinet from within MAME (frontend), without using another computer, internet browser or even keyboard.

Imagine whenever you turn on your cabinet and start some game you are able to see all the current hi-scores from the whole community right there in the game itself, just like you can see your own records now. It would be like everyone is playing one a single "public machine", and just as if you walked into actual arcade there will always be possibility someone have beaten your record or set new hi-score while your were away.

 

[spoot]

My boredom so-far today produced this...........

Is it just the interface or is there something behind ?
[/quote]

Cross-platform front-end with database driven multithreaded SSL engine for the server.  But I'm way lit off booze atm....and it's time to watch Aliens HD louder than is sensible.   

[Hoopz]

I would be much more interested in a system that generates game lists based on 'what's popular' among people participating...

something parses log files, or run time instances, or whatever to determine what games i've played, sends that play count to a server, then spits back out a list file for my front end (hyperspin, mala, maximus, atmoic, flat xml, whatever) of the popular games this week, month, etc. Maybe even other lists like 'Games played by less than 3 people' or something.

That way I'd always have a list of new games to try.

It's been awhile since I followed the updates, but I think GameEx does that.

[torino]

My main problem with this,  is that i am not very good at video games   Meaning that quickly I will just see an unreachable top 10 (more or less depending on the games) of people I don't know.

It would be nice to have a server that gather high scores from everybody, extract the scores (with hitotext for instance) and put it in an online database. Like that I would see that I am ranked 92 over 200 people at donkey kong for instance. I would keep my local hiscore.  It would also be possible to have ranking by countries or access this ranking from the frontend.

Well, a competition is supposed to be motivating.

So, you would rather hi-score tables in games themselves keep only your own records, but on the other hand you do like the idea to compare your scores with other people and monitor your ranking, however you're happy to keep this completely separate from your arcade cabinet as something you could check with another computer via web browser, right?

How about there is MAME option called "online" that can be enabled or disabled. When enabled MAME would import hi-scores from shared internet folder and while playing in this mode you would automatically participate in this global ranking system, and if disabled MAME would run off-line with your local hi-score files and your own records, as usual, how about that?


I think it's not so much about getting the 1st place, no one is really good at any game without investing much time in it, so there is no shame to be scoring even few million points less than the champion in that particular game, it just means the guy had been playing that game a lot. It's about participation and community, so no matter what you manage to score every game becomes more meaningful when there are people around to see it, and just getting your initials on some global public scoreboard could feel much more of an accomplishment than beating any of your own records.

[ptinolv]

I think it's not so much about getting the 1st place, no one is really good at any game without investing much time in it, so there is no shame to be scoring even few million points less than the champion in that particular game [...]

My point is that in games, hiscores ranking is limited to 10 maybe 20 initials. I just think it is nice to have a ranking bigger than this and for instance know if i am the 45th over 200 people. I don't care about being the 1st but it is nice to know where you stand when you have a lot of players. It is more motivating than seeing a gap of 10 millions points between me and the last score saved. (this is of course if there are a lot of users)

[...]however you're happy to keep this completely separate from your arcade cabinet as something you could check with another computer via web browser, right? [...]

The ideal would be an interface via the frontend that shows the ranking (like the hitotext support or statistics in GameEx).

It could also have both : Mame importing hi-score and a more global ranking available online, etc.

[leapinlew]

Build a custom compile of mame with modified roms which allow for more initials and automatic uploads to a website including the inp file

Good luck distributing the roms!

[torino]

What do you mean, what is it you dislike about having internet connection?

My Mame systems are closed systems. They do not require Microsoft updates, antivirus updates, etc. This means the system is more stable than a system that is constantly randomly adding updated software. If I allowed an internet connection, I would have to worry about malware, worms, viruses, etc.

If you're so worried what are you doing here, on the internet I mean? Unplug, quickly... unplug!!!

Being solely MAME system, not making any updates and not fluffing around the internet means there would be nothing to "open the door" for malware and viruses to come in, especially if you disable all the other internet/remote access background services. Plus, MAME would only need to open internet connection briefly, and to only one particular server, after you play some game, so unless the attack comes directly from our file server there is simply no other way your computer could be compromised.

Even if you had permanent 24/7 internet connection on that computer you would need someone specifically targeting your system for there to be anything to worry about, and even then simple firewall would be able to protect you. In any case I suggest you should keep your private documents, your bank accounts and everything important on your personal computer and worry about that, not MAME machine, also make backup and worry more about hard-drive failure than virtual bacteria eating your files, or better yet, don't worry, be happy.

[torino]

I think it's not so much about getting the 1st place, no one is really good at any game without investing much time in it, so there is no shame to be scoring even few million points less than the champion in that particular game [...]

My point is that in games, hiscores ranking is limited to 10 maybe 20 initials. I just think it is nice to have a ranking bigger than this and for instance know if i am the 45th over 200 people. I don't care about being the 1st but it is nice to know where you stand when you have a lot of players. It is more motivating than seeing a gap of 10 millions points between me and the last score saved. (this is of course if there are a lot of users)

[...]however you're happy to keep this completely separate from your arcade cabinet as something you could check with another computer via web browser, right? [...]

The ideal would be an interface via the frontend that shows the ranking (like the hitotext support or statistics in GameEx).

It could also have both : Mame importing hi-score and a more global ranking available online, etc.

I thought you would be discouraged to play if you were looking at someone else's initials and that you would not be motivated if all the scores were very high making it appear impossible to ever put your own initials on your own machine, or something like that.


Anyway, I completely agree, I'm just trying to keep it simple and what you're talking about requires some work, but merely sharing hi-score folder over the internet we could do right now, just two of us and maybe others will join. Let's play one game for a week and see how it works, how it feels. If it turns out like fun and if enough people end up participating then we can look at the ways how to extend and improve it, until then a forum like this can be used to facilitate tournament organisation, provide additional information and help with invitations and promotions.

It would be cool if this global ranking and scoreboard thing was officially supported by BYOAC, and perhaps Saint could even provide space for shared files on this server, or somehow incorporate scores, rankings and tournament timetables within the forum itself, which would surely increase interest in our tournament, but could work the other way around too, so both could potentially grow in popularity together.

[torino]

Today's challenge is... Donkey Kong (dkong).

But let me start from the beginning. I think I found better/easier solution with www.drivehq.com, which is basically a FTP server but this particular option uses WebDAV drive mapping feature which allows windows programs to work with files on the internet. My tests say this works very well and the best of all it does not require anyone else to install any additional software or open any new accounts. Whoever wants to participate and have a go at this "public machine" only needs to do this:

1.) Top menu of any folder: Tools->Map Network Drive... (Z:)

"http://www.drivehq.com/webdav/OnlineMAME"
Username: OnlineMAME / Password: letmeplay


2.) MAME .ini change: hiscore_directory       Z:\Hi-Score


That's it. Current scoreboard:


1st  010500   TOR
2nd  009800   ABC
3rd  007650
4th  006100
6th  005950


How high can you get?

[leapinlew]

If you're so worried what are you doing here, on the internet I mean? Unplug, quickly... unplug!!!

Just because you are naive about how viruses work doesn't mean we all are.

Being solely MAME system, not making any updates and not fluffing around the internet means there would be nothing to "open the door" for malware and viruses to come in, especially if you disable all the other internet/remote access background services. Plus, MAME would only need to open internet connection briefly, and to only one particular server, after you play some game, so unless the attack comes directly from our file server there is simply no other way your computer could be compromised.

Even if you had permanent 24/7 internet connection on that computer you would need someone specifically targeting your system for there to be anything to worry about, and even then simple firewall would be able to protect you. In any case I suggest you should keep your private documents, your bank accounts and everything important on your personal computer and worry about that, not MAME machine, also make backup and worry more about hard-drive failure than virtual bacteria eating your files, or better yet, don't worry, be happy.

You familiar with conficker or any of a number of different worms which penetrate your system from inside your network? This happens with no user interaction. If I plugged my Mame computer onto the same network as my internet, it would then be connected on the LAN and be exposed to other computers on the LAN. I would have to do all the maintenance I was referring to and for what? What is the purpose of having an internet connection on my Mame computer? Why would I do all this extra work? I have other computers/laptops that I would rather use to get on the internet.

The hardware I'm using to run my computers would choke if I had to run all the latest updates, antivirus, etc.

Furthermore, how many computes do you have hooked into your internet? I have dozens. So maybe Joe Everyman doesn't mind updating his only Mame computer so it can be connected to the internet, but I prefer the lower maintenance of a standalone system. If you want to connect your Mame computer to the internet, good for you. I won't try to convince you it's unsafe so do me a favor and quit trying to convince me it is safe.

[torino]

What is the purpose of having an internet connection on my Mame computer? Why would I do all this extra work? I have other computers/laptops that I would rather use to get on the internet.

You can use any computer you like, I have to use my laptop for this since all my MAME machine run DOS, at the moment. -- By the way, I forgot to mention this should be compatible across many platforms. Those instruction above are for WinXP, but any other OS, including Linux and MacOS, should be able to map that Network Drive via some control panel, or something.

Are you going to try it, the Donkey Kong? How high can you get?

[newmanfamilyvlogs]

So here's an interesting proposal...

A .hi is just a copied section of the target platform's ram.. I wonder if it would be possible to write a properly malformed .hi to cause a buffer overflow in the target emulator's ram to run arbitrary code outside of the emulation platform.

[torino]

So here's an interesting proposal...

A .hi is just a copied section of the target platform's ram.. I wonder if it would be possible to write a properly malformed .hi to cause a buffer overflow in the target emulator's ram to run arbitrary code outside of the emulation platform.

Where is this paranoia coming from? Are you actually accusing me of potentially hiding some virus inside "dkong.hi", which could somehow trigger something, somewhere and do some bad things, for some strange reason? That's like accusing me of stealing your thoughts, it's craazy. -- Now, do you want your thoughts back? Gather some courage and have a go at Donkey Kong. How high can you get?


P.S.
Unless you beat my score in the next 5 hours I will eat your thoughts!!
 

[newmanfamilyvlogs]

So here's an interesting proposal...

A .hi is just a copied section of the target platform's ram.. I wonder if it would be possible to write a properly malformed .hi to cause a buffer overflow in the target emulator's ram to run arbitrary code outside of the emulation platform.

Where is this paranoia coming from? Are you actually accusing me of potentially hiding some virus inside "dkong.hi", which could somehow trigger something, somewhere and do some bad things, for some strange reason? That's like accusing me of stealing your thoughts, it's craazy. -- Now, do you want your thoughts back? Gather some courage and have a go at Donkey Kong. How high can you get?


P.S.
Unless you beat my score in the next 5 hours I will eat your thoughts!!
 

My thoughts are made of delicious nougat. I hope you choke. ^_^

I'm proposing  a purely theoretical question: Might there be an exploitable vector in mame's Z80 or MB884 emulator to jump out of the sandbox to the host system. As the file you're copying is vanishingly small, your payload would have to be pretty focused. Probably a system call to open a remote location (url) which would then exploit something else on the host system to actually get a meaningful payload.

[Gray_Area]

I don't think people are checking BYOAC competition scores on their phones at two in the morning.

I have no idea what are you talking about. I am talking about how to avoid any "checking" and make it all automatic, make it all happen right on your cabinet from within MAME (frontend), without using another computer, internet browser or even keyboard.

You're not understanding the inuendo. In plain terms, I don't think there's the right kind of interest. The comps here are a small-town-like thing, you know?

[torino]

My thoughts are made of delicious nougat. I hope you choke. ^_^

I'm proposing  a purely theoretical question: Might there be an exploitable vector in mame's Z80 or MB884 emulator to jump out of the sandbox to the host system. As the file you're copying is vanishingly small, your payload would have to be pretty focused. Probably a system call to open a remote location (url) which would then exploit something else on the host system to actually get a meaningful payload.

Seriously, that's quite off-topic and offending to my kindness and effort to popularize this marvellous and revolutionary new idea.

Did you actually try it? Did you sign in as "USA" on DK? One or few people have played Donkey Kong and someone played 1942, so there are two files on that server now. You can too play some other game and your MAME will automatically create a new file in that shared folder, so you can try it without using any of my files, you can put your own files there.

[torino]

In plain terms, I don't think there's the right kind of interest.

People enjoy their scoreboards on their Playstation and Xbox network, right? So, why wouldn't they enjoy similar "Arcade Network"? I think there would be interest in hundreds and thousands if people knew about it and there was official sponsor to give some credential to the whole thing.

I would expect every MAME player that submits scores to Twin Galaxies would prefer automatized option, it would also probably attract many more people to this global competition who are now simply lazy to submit their scores, which really is demanding and inconvenient, so I think there could be over thousand people ready to join right there. On the other hand this works just fine with only 5 or 10 people, try it, everything becomes more interesting and more "arcade-like". It's kind of when you having a free-play vs. inserting a coin, even if trivial that kind of thing can change the whole experience.

The comps here are a small-town-like, you know?

No, I'm sorry, what do you mean?

[Gray_Area]

.....if you're simply throwing the idea out there for all the world, then this topic is better suited to EE.