Defender/Stargate

[pinballwizard79]

What ridiculously difficult games.

The only way to make em harder would be to add two foot pedals for the up & down functions.

Its gonna take me some time to get good at these two...

[RandyT]

Tell me about it.  Someone should come up with a hack (cheat) for it which just lets the player use a joystick to control the ship.  I actually used to do pretty well on the old console versions where this was done.  Otherwise, a close to original control panel layout is nearly a necessity.

[yotsuya]

Tell me about it.  Someone should come up with a hack (cheat) for it which just lets the player use a joystick to control the ship.  I actually used to do pretty well on the old console versions where this was done.  Otherwise, a close to original control panel layout is nearly a necessity.

I think Derrick did around the same time as the 720 debacle.

[D_Harris]

Defender and StarGate were created to separate the real gamers from the wannabees. 

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[RandyT]

Defender and StarGate were created to separate the real gamers from their quarters.

Fixed that for you.  I need to look up that hack. 

[D_Harris]

Well, if you mean that the less talent you had the more quarters you needed to put into the games then I agree.

And any control format other than the original is for lamers.

It's like using a trackball on "Track & Field". Why bother?

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[RetroBorg]

Someone should come up with a hack (cheat) for it which just lets the player use a joystick to control the ship.

There is a rom version for Defender that allows this.

[alfonzotan]

Defender and StarGate were created to separate the real gamers from the wannabees. 

This.  I completely cracked up when Donkey Kong was described as "the hardest game ever" in King Of Kong.

[CheffoJeffo]

Defender and StarGate were created to separate the real gamers from the wannabees. 

This.  I completely cracked up when Donkey Kong was described as "the hardest game ever" in King Of Kong.

While I get ---my bottom--- kicked in Defender more quickly than I do in DK, Defender was one of the first games that (some) folks (not me) could play for a day on a single quarter.

[cw]

Now wait a sec... lets take this one game at a time.  These 2 games look so much alike and yes they can be difficult to play but keep in mind Stargate not only gives you smartbombs yes that's bombs more than one.  They kill everything on the screen (unlike Defender) but the humanoids that you are trying to protect.  It also provides a limited amount of inviso.  Not only making you invisible but also invulnerable.  What more could you possible want?  How about a hyperspace button that will 6 times out of 10 get you out of a mess.  With all this at your disposal how could this game be anything but easy.
 

[wbassett]

To me Defender and Stargate are the types of games that are hard to master but once you do... what a ride!

I used to be my home town champ on Defender.  Once the game was mastered, the trick was to get the score as close to all 9's without rolling it over (it would reset back to 0).  When I built my MAME cab, I fired it up and challenged my son at a game.  He's an XBox and PS3 guy, so the 'cheesy graphics' and games I was showing him didn't impress him much and he said they couldn't possibly be that fun (or hard).  Defender left him with his jaw on the floor!  Especially when he saw his old man's rapid fire technique!  He walked away with a lot more respect for the game and a desire to someday master it!

The type of games I really hate are the ones that you can never really master no matter how hard you try.  Those are the real quarter eaters.  Back in the day... once I mastered Defender and Stargate... I could put one quarter in and literally play for hours, or until I got bored with it.

[leapinlew]

It's like using a trackball on "Track & Field". Why bother?

Cause thats what they had at my arcade and it was a load of fun?

The trackball was a better control setup for track & field. I've done both and the trackball was by far the most enjoyable.

[arzoo]

My two favorite games! 

[D_Harris]

It's like using a trackball on "Track & Field". Why bother?

Cause thats what they had at my arcade and it was a load of fun?

The trackball was a better control setup for track & field. I've done both and the trackball was by far the most enjoyable.

It was fun for you because the trackball made it easier than original controls.

As for StarGate, the MAME score moved up several times last month as a result of one of the top competitors getting a StarGate control panel from me, which re-ignited the competition on this title. http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=110415.0

And I've spoken to a couple others who now have motivation to get the original control format so they can get back into it.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York

[leapinlew]

It was fun for you because the trackball made it easier than original controls.

If your saying a game is fun because the controls aren't difficult to use, than I agree 100%.

Also, as far as I'm concerned, these are the original controls. They came from the factory with trackballs installed. I have played with the button version, and it was fun too, but racing with the trackball was much more fun.

[RandyT]

Well, if you mean that the less talent you had the more quarters you needed to put into the games then I agree.

And any control format other than the original is for lamers.

The big problem with these titles on a home machine, which I alluded to earlier, is that without a perfect replica of the original panel, an already difficult game becomes much more difficult.  And even though I have an original panel here, and the short 2-way control hiding in a box somewhere, it's probably not going to find its way to a panel on my machine. 

The bottom line is; if it's not fun to play because not having the original controls and layout makes the game significantly more difficult than it was in the arcade, then a modification which makes the game fun (and playable) on the controls you have, is a far better option than simply not playing the game. 

[wbassett]

Well, if you mean that the less talent you had the more quarters you needed to put into the games then I agree.

And any control format other than the original is for lamers.

The big problem with these titles on a home machine, which I alluded to earlier, is that without a perfect replica of the original panel, an already difficult game becomes much more difficult.  And even though I have an original panel here, and the short 2-way control hiding in a box somewhere, it's probably not going to find its way to a panel on my machine. 

The bottom line is; if it's not fun to play because not having the original controls and layout makes the game significantly more difficult than it was in the arcade, then a modification which makes the game fun (and playable) on the controls you have, is a far better option than simply not playing the game. 

Better watch it Randy... the purists will come beat you with a stick!

I agree with you though, not all games have to have the original layout or controls to be fun.  In this case this is my all time favorite game from my youth, and I would love (and plan on) having a dedicated cp for Defender and Stargate

[TOK]

Love these two games... I wasn't happy with the compromised control panel solutions and wound up building a bartop with a Stargate layout. I think Defender is one of the few classic games that avoids feeling repetitive.

Even though you're doing the same thing every game, there is no way to memorize or even predict what is going to happen. That sheer randomness really keeps it fun.

[yotsuya]

Randy-

This is the link:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=108813.0

[RandyT]

This is the link:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=108813.0

Much obliged 

[Blanka]

Maybe try the 2010 version of Defender:
http://www.playniax.com/games/playniax-games/defenstar/about/
A little easier IMO, but very cool!

[(+_+)]

Defenstar. I like it.

So, can the home town champ gives us some tricks of the trade to ease our pain.
I love/hate both of these games.

[Spacejack]

And any control format other than the original is for lamers.

I guess I'm a lamer then, cause I'll definitely take a joystick for Defender over the all-button layout.

Was actually playing some Defender last night and wishing that my U360s had shorter handles, or at least the one I was using (metal CP). Was thinking of putting some spacers in the mounting to make the handles shorter on the surface. The only thing giving me pause is that Robotron had those long sticks, but I don't really see how they affected gameplay so I'll probably just go ahead and do it. Fluency on the left hand controls is so vital in Defender.

[arzoo]

Love the sound effects in this version:
http://www.kongregate.com/games/ptdgames/shoofender-deluxe

[D_Harris]

Well, if you mean that the less talent you had the more quarters you needed to put into the games then I agree.

And any control format other than the original is for lamers.

The big problem with these titles on a home machine, which I alluded to earlier, is that without a perfect replica of the original panel, an already difficult game becomes much more difficult.  And even though I have an original panel here, and the short 2-way control hiding in a box somewhere, it's probably not going to find its way to a panel on my machine. 

The bottom line is; if it's not fun to play because not having the original controls and layout makes the game significantly more difficult than it was in the arcade, then a modification which makes the game fun (and playable) on the controls you have, is a far better option than simply not playing the game. 

Well, I was actually addressing what the OP said along with what you said in your first response to him.

You both appeared to convey that the original controls made the game more difficult than is needed to be. (And I'm also aware that quite a few others believe that a different control format would make the game easier).

Nevertheless, I'm a purist when it comes to Defender/StarGate.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[Lilwolf]

I DID create a perfect replica of a defender control panel for my hot swappable... and after hundred bucks or so, and a weekend... you know what I found out?  I suck at defender...

I thought I used to be good at it... but no... I suck...

I'm pretty sure with a joystick... I would suck still. 

what I need is a 486dx2-66... I bet I wouldn't suck so bad at 50% frame rate!  Oh yeah!  If my reaction time goes down as I get older... I think this is the ONLY fair way to proceed!

Well, if you mean that the less talent you had the more quarters you needed to put into the games then I agree.

And any control format other than the original is for lamers.

The big problem with these titles on a home machine, which I alluded to earlier, is that without a perfect replica of the original panel, an already difficult game becomes much more difficult.  And even though I have an original panel here, and the short 2-way control hiding in a box somewhere, it's probably not going to find its way to a panel on my machine. 

The bottom line is; if it's not fun to play because not having the original controls and layout makes the game significantly more difficult than it was in the arcade, then a modification which makes the game fun (and playable) on the controls you have, is a far better option than simply not playing the game. 

[leapinlew]

Nevertheless, I'm a purist when it comes to Defender/StarGate.

To each their own I guess. I have a Wico Leaf installed on my Donkey Kong because I feel the Wico is superior in performance to an original nintendo joystick.

Battling the controls isn't my idea of a good time and I don't think it takes away too much from the game.

[RandyT]

Well, I was actually addressing what the OP said along with what you said in your first response to him.

You both appeared to convey that the original controls made the game more difficult than is needed to be. (And I'm also aware that quite a few others believe that a different control format would make the game easier).

I don't think either of us mentioned that we were using the original controls or layout.  Most posting here won't be.  Even if you manage to put a 2-way stick in place, there's a really good chance that it won't be a leaf-switch based stick tweaked for immediate response, or that the button is close enough to it, and both of those aspects of the control scheme are, IMHO, crucial to gameplay.  Based on my own experiences with the title, my assumption and response was that part of the frustration experienced by the OP was the lack of original controls.  Sans those controls, a normal 8-way "hack" would probably be much less frustrating.

[D_Harris]

Well, I was actually addressing what the OP said along with what you said in your first response to him.

You both appeared to convey that the original controls made the game more difficult than is needed to be. (And I'm also aware that quite a few others believe that a different control format would make the game easier).

I don't think either of us mentioned that we were using the original controls or layout.  Most posting here won't be.  Even if you manage to put a 2-way stick in place, there's a really good chance that it won't be a leaf-switch based stick tweaked for immediate response, or that the button is close enough to it, and both of those aspects of the control scheme are, IMHO, crucial to gameplay.  Based on my own experiences with the title, my assumption and response was that part of the frustration experienced by the OP was the lack of original controls.  Sans those controls, a normal 8-way "hack" would probably be much less frustrating.

That is actually not how the discussion started out.

There is no question the OP was referring to the original control format(layout). And you responded in agreement.

In fact, you did mention the lay out. And you suggested a hack that would allow control of the ship with a joystick, which would lead one to think that you are referring to manipulating "Reverse"(Left/Right) with the joystick and not just "Up" and "Down".

Now I would only play using the original controls. So obviously I'd prefer using the original layout also. (I even came up with a solution for repairing the original Williams 2-way joysticks for these games).

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[RandyT]

There is no question the OP was referring to the original control format(layout). And you responded in agreement.

I think you read too much into it.

Otherwise, a close to original control panel layout is nearly a necessity.

[scofthe7seas]

There is no question the OP was referring to the original control format(layout). And you responded in agreement.

I think there could definitely be question in how the OP has his setup. He was saying it would be more difficult if the up and down buttons were replaced with pedals, but it has no mention as to how his actual setup is. I was under the assumption that he was playing it on a mame cab in a setup that is as close to the original as possible with whatever he has. Not an actual really real Defender CP.

[D_Harris]

There is no question the OP was referring to the original control format(layout). And you responded in agreement.

I think there could definitely be question in how the OP has his setup. He was saying it would be more difficult if the up and down buttons were replaced with pedals, but it has no mention as to how his actual setup is. I was under the assumption that he was playing it on a mame cab in a setup that is as close to the original as possible with whatever he has. Not an actual really real Defender CP.

Well, to me he was referring to the original control panel lay-out, because it would make no sense to complain about an unconventional control panel lay-out for these two games without being specific.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[scofthe7seas]

Except that he was just saying the games were difficult. Which they are. I think they are difficult no matter how you have it set up.
He was just stating that it would be more difficult with pedals instead of a stick.

[LeedsFan]

I built my Defender bartop panel using "original" parts. Repro 2-way leaf joystick with Sanwa 24mm buttons. Plays great! But I still suck 

I am also in the process of building a second panel with Wico sticks for Robotron and Smash TV. I have still never played either of those games with original Wicos so I am very looking forward to trying those out. 

I did consider a multi Williams panel to cover all the games at once but I just did not want to compromise with the Defender joystick not being set low down.

[drventure]

@Arzoo

That Shoofender is awesome!

[leapinlew]

I built my Defender bartop panel using "original" parts. Repro 2-way leaf joystick with Sanwa 24mm buttons. Plays great! But I still suck 

I am also in the process of building a second panel with Wico sticks for Robotron and Smash TV. I have still never played either of those games with original Wicos so I am very looking forward to trying those out. 

I did consider a multi Williams panel to cover all the games at once but I just did not want to compromise with the Defender joystick not being set low down.

Did you forget the reverse button at first?

[Cynicaster]

I played Defender on MAME for the first time a few weeks ago when it was included in a high score tournament over at AtariAge, and I had no idea how to set up the controls because I have never had the pleasure of playing the game on an original cabinet.  So, what I did was simply map the buttons on my MAME cabinet to a setup that felt “logical” to me.  The 5 buttons was extremely confusing at first but once you feel yourself starting to get the hang of it, it’s actually a rewarding experience. 

After reading this thread, I looked up the actual Defender CP layout and, predictably, what I had done was not even close.  But, last night I switched the controls to match the correct layout as closely as possible and I think it actually works.  I have a 2-player CP with 6 buttons each (arranged in two rows of 3 in an “arc” to account for the fact that your index finger is shorter).  So, I was able to use the top row player 2 buttons for smart-bomb, thrust, and fire.  For reverse, I used the left-most button in the bottom row on the player 1 side.  It’s actually close enough that if I grab the joystick like a gear shifter, I can comfortably hit the button with my thumb.  I don’t have a button anywhere near where the hyperspace button should be, so I just used the first button in the second row on the player 2 side.  I’m not good enough at the game to make use of hyperspace anyway. 

Of course, I had to completely re-learn how to play the game (not that I was any good at it to begin with) but I must say this control layout is very cool and fun to use.  Coincidentally, also last night, my sister told me she saw a Defender cabinet in the lobby of a local movie theater so I might just have to make a dedicated trip out there to try my hand at it. 

[scofthe7seas]

When using the original controls as intended, it reminds me of learning to drive for the first time

[leapinlew]

When using the original controls as intended, it reminds me of learning to drive for the first time

Yeah... learning to drive a hazmat 18 wheeler with 18 gears

[Paul Olson]

When using the original controls as intended, it reminds me of learning to drive for the first time

Yeah... learning to drive a hazmat 18 wheeler with 18 gears

I used to do that for a living. That was way easier to learn.