Author Topic: Designing Control Panel, Need Input (Read 8270 times)

patm95 · « **on:** March 25, 2011, 10:47:45 pm »

Hi all. After browsing this forum for a few years, I have decided to finally start getting serious about building a mame cab. I am designing a control panel with hopes of buying it from north coast customs. I have to apologize because it is a frakenpanel and I know those are not everyone's favorite here lol. Aside from it being a frakenpanel I was wondering what everyone else thought and what you would change about it. There is a pause button on each side of the panel, some admin buttons in the middle. Players 1 and 2 will be an 8 way stick. I am considering getting rid of the 7th button as I don't plan on emulating any consoles on it. Players 3 and 4 will be a rotary joystick. I have a 4 way stick on there and a spinner. I welcome any comments! Thanks!

pinballwizard79 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 25, 2011, 11:24:22 pm »

Frankenpanel haters can suck it

FYI: If you put the Asteroids layout next to your 4 way & down some you can play Defender, add another button & you can play Stargate... not to mention make the asteroids layout more reachable. I would recommended getting a high/low spinner so you can actually use that flight stick. I have had a regular GGG & Tornado spinner before & hands down the Apache is the beefiest baddest ass sexiest one with the best knobs EVAR!

http://www.apachecontrols.com/products.html

My old regular panel just wasn't cutting it, the new panel is still under construction due to having to order a new top (dont hammer t-nuts into soft woods kids). Anyway here is what I did to a 4 player panel but only utilizing it for 2 players, not a lot of people like the cupholders or frankenpanelness but to me its awesome (art not applied, trackball/bolts will be flush mounted).

patm95 · « **Reply #2 on:** March 25, 2011, 11:32:13 pm »

I like the way you think pinballwizard79! I will take a look into what you said about the spinner and asteroids layout.

mgb · « **Reply #3 on:** March 26, 2011, 07:01:47 pm »

You don't have to appologize for building a frankenpanel.
To each, their own. your the one that will use it, your the one that will look at it.
Good luck on your build.

patm95 · « **Reply #4 on:** March 26, 2011, 07:06:53 pm »

Thanks for the replies. What do you all think of the button layout? The admin buttons are the group of 5 in the top middle of the panel. Do I need 7 buttons for players 1 and 2 if I don't plan on emulating any systems? I am also thinking about adding two buttons next to the 4 way stick.

mgb · « **Reply #5 on:** March 27, 2011, 01:03:04 am »

The seven buttons depends on how you want to handle playing Neo-Geo games. If you're going to have a dedicated 4-way stick, I think its best to have some buttons set aside for it.

Paul Olson · « **Reply #6 on:** March 27, 2011, 01:15:31 am »

If you don't plan to routinely have 4 people playing at once, I would suggest going with a 2-player panel to give some more space. I actually prefer my MAME cab to dedicated 2 player games just because we are able to play more spread out.

pinballwizard79 · « **Reply #7 on:** March 27, 2011, 01:44:31 pm »

Quote from: Paul Olson on March 27, 2011, 01:15:31 am

If you don't plan to routinely have 4 people playing at once, I would suggest going with a 2-player panel to give some more space. I actually prefer my MAME cab to dedicated 2 player games just because we are able to play more spread out.

+1

Also admin buttons make things complicated IMO. If you set up the FE & emu's properly those buttons are not needed. On the rare occasion you do need admins just plug in a keyboard when doing work "under the hood".

I hid the pause buttons under my control panel, that way its nice & clean looking & only privileged Jedi's know of the pause cheat. You can use player 1/2 as the load game buttons too FYI + use just one exit game button & if you rig up the coin door to work it adds fun to the experience & dilutes the crowding on your CPO even further.

mgb · « **Reply #8 on:** March 27, 2011, 08:28:49 pm »

It seems that alot of guys like the 4 player layout.
I'm starting to wonder if I'm the only guy who doesn't have 3 friends to play games with.

CapriRS302 · « **Reply #9 on:** March 28, 2011, 09:23:57 am »

I kept mine at 2 players, and I keep a couple of gamepads inside the coin door for the few times that I have 3 or 4 people who want to play. It actually has been a rare occurrence, even when I have a bunch of people over. Besides, the gamepads work much better than the joysticks for N64 and playstation games anyways.

I would also suggest that you order the parts and assemble them yourself, that more than half the fun of building a cabinet.

patm95 · « **Reply #10 on:** March 28, 2011, 07:10:46 pm »

Thanks for the input. I do intend on just buying the shell from north coast customs and doing the rest myself. I have heard that they do good work and am not crazy about tackling doing all the woodwork, so I think this will work out best.

Donkbaca · « **Reply #11 on:** March 28, 2011, 07:50:52 pm »

If I could put in my 2 cents. Building a CP box is pretty easy, especially if you are going to butt joint it, its the mounting of the controls; routing out all the stuff and wiring, that are more difficult and take more time IMHO.

Paul Olson · « **Reply #12 on:** March 31, 2011, 05:27:14 pm »

Quote from: pinballwizard79 on March 27, 2011, 01:44:31 pm

Quote from: Paul Olson on March 27, 2011, 01:15:31 am
If you don't plan to routinely have 4 people playing at once, I would suggest going with a 2-player panel to give some more space. I actually prefer my MAME cab to dedicated 2 player games just because we are able to play more spread out.

+1

Also admin buttons make things complicated IMO. If you set up the FE & emu's properly those buttons are not needed. On the rare occasion you do need admins just plug in a keyboard when doing work "under the hood".

I hid the pause buttons under my control panel, that way its nice & clean looking & only privileged Jedi's know of the pause cheat. You can use player 1/2 as the load game buttons too FYI + use just one exit game button & if you rig up the coin door to work it adds fun to the experience & dilutes the crowding on your CPO even further.

I have Pause and the credit buttons mounted under the CP. It works great, and guests figure it out very easy. I have tab and esc shifted on those for quick button assignments in MAME, but yeah, a wireless keyboard is your friend for anything more.

VanillaGorilla · « **Reply #13 on:** March 31, 2011, 05:40:46 pm »

Quote from: mgb on March 27, 2011, 08:28:49 pm

It seems that alot of guys like the 4 player layout.
I'm starting to wonder if I'm the only guy who doesn't have 3 friends to play games with.

Wanna hang? I dont smell...

I dont have 2 friends that wanna play, and 1 can even be a challenge as people 'grow up' and replicate.

And... Just trying to make sure all opinions are represented, since the door has been opened to insults:

FRANKENPANELS LOVERS CAN SUCK IT!
Seriously though, a lot of people make frankenpanels on their first machines, because the fear of omitting ANYTHING proves too great. I rarely ever see anyone going back for seconds though. Swappable/modular panels is the way to go.

Donkbaca · « **Reply #14 on:** March 31, 2011, 07:28:30 pm »

I think even swappable/ modular panels is a waste.

All most people need is a couple U360, each with 6 buttons, plus coin, start and exit. Heck, you only really need 4 buttons per player if you aren't into fighters...

Paul Olson · « **Reply #15 on:** March 31, 2011, 07:50:09 pm »

Quote from: Donkbaca on March 31, 2011, 07:28:30 pm

I think even swappable/ modular panels is a waste. All most people need is a couple U360, each with 6 buttons, plus coin, start and exit. Heck, you only really need 4 buttons per player if you aren't into fighters...

there are a lot of controllers you can add to a modular or swappable panel other than joysticks. Yokes, wheels, etc. Plus the feel of an original stick is completely different. My Tron stick could never be replaced by a u360. My nintendo stick for Donkey Kong is probably even more important.

Donkbaca · « **Reply #16 on:** March 31, 2011, 09:21:24 pm »

You aren't most people.

"oh you want to play DK? Hold on while I swap out the panels..."

VanillaGorilla · « **Reply #17 on:** March 31, 2011, 09:59:14 pm »

Quote from: Donkbaca on March 31, 2011, 09:21:24 pm

You aren't most people.

"oh you want to play DK? Hold on while I swap out the panels..."

I guess I'm not then either. It takes all of 45 seconds to change panels. If you're smart, you have a panel for classics, one for fighters, maybe a driving panel too. I have ADHD and even I can manage that

Xiaou2 · « **Reply #18 on:** March 31, 2011, 10:20:31 pm »

Donkbaca, you arnt most people either... and furthermore, how exactly are you tallying "Most".

There were tons of us who grew up playing entire arcades filled to the brim, all over the world... from the 80s craze days to present.

Classic fans desire the real controllers... and believe it or not, there are a LOT of us out there.

Im guessing you didnt catch the arcade wave till the fighters, hence you came in after all the originality and unique controls went bye bye... and hence started the downfall of the arcade industry.

Your opinion then isnt based on experience, but by your idea of ease, clean design, etc. Not playability, not feel, response, and superior control.

Until you have actually played many of these games with native hardware, such as using a Real MsPacman 4way joystick... then you will never really understand.

Quote

I rarely ever see anyone going back for seconds though.

How man people built their main machine are rebuilding them? Do you have those figures?

Most of the problem with control panels with lots of controls isnt the number of controls. Its the poor placement of them... such as when the trakball is too close to the joystick, and you end up smashing your hand into it. Or putting Joysticks too deep, which makes it a strain to use them at length.

These all can be solved with better thought and testing... but as a newbie, you simply dont know that much, and just start cutting away.

A simple example, is that you can place 2 joysticks nearly on top of each other without your arms having to reach deep, or your hands hitting the other stick on accident. Just a slight diagonal placement will make both usable, and infinitely better than straddling the other stick deep into the control panel, where your arms and elbows end up resting on other controls while trying to use it.

Both Swappable and Modular isnt for everyone. Both have drawbacks.

Swappable takes up more storage space, and means more costs and work to build. It also means having to waste game time unhooking and swapping control panels often.

Modular is even worse, in that each piece has to be enclosed. Pieces can be lost, stolen or damaged. You also need even More storage space for them. And it takes even longer to swap out multiple controls, than swapping out a single panel.

Frankenpanels biggest drawback is looks, and poor placement of controls. The latter which can be remedied with better designing. You also save money and time, and gain gameplay time.

Its up to the user what they want, and not for anyone else to push their opinions and sharp opinions down their throats. Theres no right or wrong in an opinion, so dont get all high and mighty thinking that your opinions are written on some Ancient stone tablet or something like that.

Donkbaca · « **Reply #19 on:** April 01, 2011, 01:37:32 am »

I am more most people then you X2, and by golly I hope you never change

CheffoJeffo · « **Reply #20 on:** April 01, 2011, 09:38:26 am »

Quote from: Donkbaca on April 01, 2011, 01:37:32 am

I am more most people then you X2, and by golly I hope you never change

CheffoJeffo · « **Reply #21 on:** April 01, 2011, 09:43:16 am »

I must be getting old ... nobody has asked about whether he is mounting the outside sticks on an angle.

Donkbaca · « **Reply #22 on:** April 01, 2011, 10:10:16 am »

I wonder.... Are you mounting your outside sticks at an angle?

I think modular CPs are cooler than franken panel, I think most people (me) would definitely agree to that...

CheffoJeffo · « **Reply #23 on:** April 01, 2011, 11:20:49 am »

Quote from: Donkbaca on April 01, 2011, 10:10:16 am

I wonder.... Are you mounting your outside sticks at an angle?

Funny guy ... there's a place for people like you ... if you choose to show up ...

VanillaGorilla · « **Reply #24 on:** April 01, 2011, 12:39:38 pm »

Thread asploded

zallax · « **Reply #25 on:** April 01, 2011, 02:06:54 pm »

Don't let others get you down on a FrankenPanel design. If designed well, it just works.

Let me share my 2 cents from my experience with making FrankenPanels.

Do not put a spinner above a trackball. You will eventually jam a finger. Buttons are generally fine.
"Second-tier" controls need to be as close as possible to the user. If you put your flight stick, 4-way, or spinner to high, it strains the arms over extended play.
Design button configuration for an angled arm. FP's suffer from overcrowding, which puts your buttons to close to the joystick and strains your wrists. With angled buttons, the left arm can be straight below the joystick and the right arm/hand can be comfortably angled.
Spinners and 4-ways should have buttons that are in-line. It is usually awkward to use controls at different elevation points on your panel.
If you can slope your panel, then do it. It helps with avoidance contact of other controls.
Most importantly, mock it up on cardboard before you ever make a cut. You will find things you did not realize while designing in software.

Looking over the panel you posted, here are some points to think about.

Asteroid buttons are too far from the user and unusable as your arm will be laying across the 4-way joystick.
When using the 4-way or the spinner, what buttons are you going to use? The Flightstick?
Using the rotary on 3P for player standing at 1P would be strange, unless you plan on playing at 3P.
Like I said above, your wrists may strained if the buttons and joysticks are too close and the buttons are not angled for right hand.

For reference, here is my control panel's layout. I have a *cleavland steamer* pile of controls on my panel, which is smaller than a Quad SlikStik. I have had 4 players on my cab with no rubbing of elbows. On 1P and 2P, it is very comfortable to play because the right arm is angled in. The 4-way and DOT spinner are above P1 buttons which gives easy access. They may look like they are too close together but they are not. I regularly score 90,000+ on Discs of Tron so I rigorously tested the spacing with my motions. There are buttons in-line with the 4-way and DOT spinner, which works well for the most part but I do have to raise my arm a little because I cannot rest it on the trackball (sloped panel helps here). I have 2 joystick on 1P and 2P because of my love for Smash TV and the right joysticks are LS-30 rotaries because I am a Heavy Barrel nut. Another thing I did was map the Flight-stick buttons to Mouse buttons, to make it comfortable to use a mouse when administrating the OS of the cab.

Click images to see larger.

My button configuration is designed for an angle hand, yet allows me to have multiple possibilities, e.g., Mortal Kombat, NeoGeo, Stargate/Defender, Vanguard, etc. Street Fighter is shifted, but, I have had dominant SF players adjust in minutes.

I hope my information helps you out on your design.

eds1275 · « **Reply #26 on:** April 01, 2011, 02:15:19 pm »

Holy crap, that's a lot of buttons that make a lot of sense.

I personally think that 4 player panels are good if you have the real estate to make it wide enough that the people on the sides don't have to play at an angle. If they do then it's a little awkward to play. If they're gonna suffer, might as well just have some usb ports on the bottom of the CP and then let them use USB game pads.

Donkbaca · « **Reply #27 on:** April 01, 2011, 02:33:10 pm »

Build what you want. I just think you should build a panel so that it plays what you WANT to play, not so that it plays everything you think you should be able to play.

I don't have a trackball on my cab. Most people think, YOU MUST HAVE A TRACKBALL. Well, i got one, and then decided, you know what? I don't like trackball games enough to put one on my cab. It would mostly just sit there. Not worth it to me...

pinballwizard79 · « **Reply #28 on:** April 01, 2011, 02:38:34 pm »

Modular is far worse than a frankenpanel, who the hell wants a go bot jigsaw puzzle arcade panel?

I am on my 6th build & I finally decided a frankenpanel was the way to go (for me, not you guys of course). I can play Tron, Defender, Golden Tee, Neo Geo's, Robotron & Donkey kong with my trackball, high/low spinner, Tron stick, 8 ways & 4 way which is pretty cool

The placement of my devices are perfect, nothing is in the way. Of course the only reason I was prob able to do this IMO is due to having a quad panel less player 3 & 4.

VanillaGorilla · « **Reply #29 on:** April 01, 2011, 03:07:40 pm »

Quote

The placement of my devices are perfect, nothing is in the way

Well, thats HIGHLY subjective. But its nice that you think so.

Taking a page right outta Xiaou2's book there, aintcha...

Twelve yards long, two lanes wide,
Sixty five tons of American pride!
Canyonero! Canyonero!

Now with flames!

Donkbaca · « **Reply #30 on:** April 01, 2011, 04:02:08 pm »

You are right, its MUCH better to have big ugly tron stick permanently on your CP, rather than just swapping one in when you, oh, actually play Tron.

Quote

The placement of my devices are perfect, nothing is in the way. Of course the only reason I was prob able to do this IMO is due to having a quad panel less player 3 & 4

I agree, the PERFECT way to play Tron is camped out way to the right of the screen.

Quote

Taking a page right outta Xiaou2's book there, aintcha...

Nah, X2 wouldn't go near that thing... the cupholders aren't authentic enough, they will hold beverages ok, but putting the beverages in and pulling them out is nothing compared to the feel of actually resting a beer on an authentic classic arcade CP....

pinballwizard79 · « **Reply #31 on:** April 01, 2011, 04:37:53 pm »

You guys crack me up.

A pic of my control panel is in this thread up top, show me whats in the way & make some suggestions....seriously I am always up for input.

I have a 37" LCD in a showcase cab now so I am never cramped or too far right of the 3 foot long screen by sliding over half a foot. Besides a little tiny turd panel would be ridiculous on such a large screen/machine. Furthermore the Tron stick is just above the player 2 controls. No one ever feels cramped or like "baby in the corner" when playing MK or SF so why would they when Tronning it up?

"Wait you want to play tron, hang on let me go get my suitcase of parts & wire/assemble this up real quick"

vs

"You want to play Tron? Move your hand 5 inches to the right & just play it".

I prefer the latter, you prefer the first.

X2 hates my panel, I made sure he disliked 100% of it before sending it to the CNC shop

zallax · « **Reply #32 on:** April 01, 2011, 04:49:28 pm »

Any control panel that is designed to comfortably and easily play your favorite games, is a good control panel.

BTW, PinballWizard79, I love your cabinet -- and game room for that matter.

pinballwizard79 · « **Reply #33 on:** April 01, 2011, 05:02:06 pm »

Thank Zallax, I appreciate it & agree a comfortable panel that plays my fav games is a good panel

Ive got no beef with X2, Don or Gorilla either since this is what BYOAC is all about (dorks arguing over dork stuff).

To the OP, just build a functional frankenpanel that accommodates the games you want to play.

wp34 · « **Reply #34 on:** April 01, 2011, 05:38:59 pm »

Quote from: Donkbaca on April 01, 2011, 04:02:08 pm

big ugly tron stick

PinballWizard79 - I really like your CP as well.

Xiaou2 · « **Reply #35 on:** April 01, 2011, 09:18:24 pm »

Patm95,

If you can hold out for a little bit, Ill be writing up and showing some pictorial examples of things which Im sure will help in your design phase.

patm95 · « **Reply #36 on:** April 01, 2011, 11:18:17 pm »

Quote from: zallax on April 01, 2011, 02:06:54 pm

Don't let others get you down on a FrankenPanel design. If designed well, it just works.

Let me share my 2 cents from my experience with making FrankenPanels.
Do not put a spinner above a trackball. You will eventually jam a finger. Buttons are generally fine.
"Second-tier" controls need to be as close as possible to the user. If you put your flight stick, 4-way, or spinner to high, it strains the arms over extended play.
Design button configuration for an angled arm. FP's suffer from overcrowding, which puts your buttons to close to the joystick and strains your wrists. With angled buttons, the left arm can be straight below the joystick and the right arm/hand can be comfortably angled.
Spinners and 4-ways should have buttons that are in-line. It is usually awkward to use controls at different elevation points on your panel.
If you can slope your panel, then do it. It helps with avoidance contact of other controls.
Most importantly, mock it up on cardboard before you ever make a cut. You will find things you did not realize while designing in software.

Looking over the panel you posted, here are some points to think about.
Asteroid buttons are too far from the user and unusable as your arm will be laying across the 4-way joystick.
When using the 4-way or the spinner, what buttons are you going to use? The Flightstick?
Using the rotary on 3P for player standing at 1P would be strange, unless you plan on playing at 3P.
Like I said above, your wrists may strained if the buttons and joysticks are too close and the buttons are not angled for right hand.

For reference, here is my control panel's layout. I have a *cleavland steamer* pile of controls on my panel, which is smaller than a Quad SlikStik. I have had 4 players on my cab with no rubbing of elbows. On 1P and 2P, it is very comfortable to play because the right arm is angled in. The 4-way and DOT spinner are above P1 buttons which gives easy access. They may look like they are too close together but they are not. I regularly score 90,000+ on Discs of Tron so I rigorously tested the spacing with my motions. There are buttons in-line with the 4-way and DOT spinner, which works well for the most part but I do have to raise my arm a little because I cannot rest it on the trackball (sloped panel helps here). I have 2 joystick on 1P and 2P because of my love for Smash TV and the right joysticks are LS-30 rotaries because I am a Heavy Barrel nut. Another thing I did was map the Flight-stick buttons to Mouse buttons, to make it comfortable to use a mouse when administrating the OS of the cab.

Click images to see larger.

My button configuration is designed for an angle hand, yet allows me to have multiple possibilities, e.g., Mortal Kombat, NeoGeo, Stargate/Defender, Vanguard, etc. Street Fighter is shifted, but, I have had dominant SF players adjust in minutes.

I hope my information helps you out on your design.

That is awesome. I will definitely take all of this into consideration. You put a lot of thought into your panel. I like it!

patm95 · « **Reply #37 on:** April 01, 2011, 11:21:51 pm »

Quote from: Xiaou2 on April 01, 2011, 09:18:24 pm

Patm95,

If you can hold out for a little bit, Ill be writing up and showing some pictorial examples of things which Im sure will help in your design phase.

Absolutely! I have work out of town for the next few weeks so I won't be able to do anything even if I had to. Looking forward to your advice!

Paul Olson · « **Reply #38 on:** April 02, 2011, 04:06:05 am »

Quote from: Donkbaca on March 31, 2011, 09:21:24 pm

You aren't most people.

"oh you want to play DK? Hold on while I swap out the panels..."

Yep. If someone wanted to play DK on my cabinet, they could take a minute to swap panels. There seems to be a general belief that it is mandatory to be able to play different games immediately. I don't feel that way at all. The experience of using the correct controls is more important than that minute to swap panels. I had a nice functional 2 player fighter layout with a trackball and a spinner to start out with. The fact that DK didn't feel right was the main reason that I decided to do a modular panel. It was important at the time. Now I have a DK in the garage, so it is not that big of a deal, but the ability to recreate any control panel is still a great option for me.

Since the OP was asking for input, I think a discussion of modular and swappable panels is a good addition to the conversation. I have never heard anyone say they wished they wouldn't have done it. Actually, you don't even have to make it swappable or modular, but if you design it with the ability do so, it leaves the option open should you want it. For a swappable panel, that really only means adding a connector so you can plug and unplug, and designing the panel so it easy to remove. To add the possibility of modular to that, you just need to build one cp box that can accept different modules, and have an easy way to plug those modules in within the box that will connect to the main connector.

It is not worth the added work or expense until you play games with other controls and decide that that is just not good enough for you. If you realize that it is a possibility you may someday want early in the design, it is easy and cheap to accommodate it. It still wont be cheap when you actually do it though.

Nephasth · « **Reply #39 on:** April 02, 2011, 09:06:36 am »

Quote from: Donkbaca on March 31, 2011, 09:21:24 pm

You aren't most people.

"oh you want to play DK? Hold on while I swap out the panels..."

To add to what Paul had to say, it's not 100% necessary to swap the panel(s) to whatever may provide a more authentic feel for DK (or whatever game), but the option is there for those who want it. People (guests playing your rig) who never experienced DK back in the day may be just fine playing it with a fighter setup. Options


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Author Topic: Designing Control Panel, Need Input (Read 8270 times)

Nephasth