Author Topic: Dust washers, on top or underneath the control panel? (Read 12297 times)

VanillaGorilla · « **on:** February 22, 2011, 04:18:56 pm »

So I'm a first generation arcade game freak (I'm 42). All I ever remember is dust washers being UNDER the control panel, until the early 90's. Then it seemed to change to being on top. Does anyone know why they migrated out from under the control panel to up on top? I always preferred the sleek look of the concealed dust washers, but it seems many people today prefer them on top? Is it just a matter of where your nostalgia lies (80's vs. 90's), or is there a sound functional reason for going with one way over the other? I have no plans on changing what I do, I'm just curious what others feel, or know about the subject.

CheffoJeffo · « **Reply #1 on:** February 22, 2011, 04:28:39 pm »

Under is correct.

I have never actually done that on a new-built cabinet, however. The only project that I have where I intend to mount underneath is my MW.

I'm lazy, although I do intend to stick some soft fuzzy stuff underneath the other dust washers at some point.

boardjunkie · « **Reply #2 on:** February 22, 2011, 04:33:52 pm »

Under is correct for a *metal* control panel. For wood you have really no choice but to put it on top. I mean I guess you could put it under on wood, but it'd look retarded and would act as a debris *collector* instead of cover.

Donkbaca · « **Reply #3 on:** February 22, 2011, 04:38:15 pm »

When building, on top of course! That way if your joystick isn't centered in the whole, nobody will notice

VanillaGorilla · « **Reply #4 on:** February 22, 2011, 04:47:00 pm »

Quote from: Donkbaca on February 22, 2011, 04:38:15 pm

When building, on top of course! That way if your joystick isn't centered in the whole, nobody will notice

Best answer so far

Seriously though, I liked the wood vs. metal argument until I remembered, Robotron was a wood CP. Its dust washers were underneath...so there goes that line of reasoning. Any others?

boardjunkie · « **Reply #5 on:** February 22, 2011, 04:59:15 pm »

Well....yer half right. The WMS panels after Defender were metal *and* wood. The sticks mounted to the metal, so the plastic washers could go under the panel.

CheffoJeffo · « **Reply #6 on:** February 22, 2011, 05:03:29 pm »

Not sure I agree with boardjunkie about the wood panels ... Robo *is* a wood panel and the washers were under the CP ... and they were a debris collector.

boardjunkie · « **Reply #7 on:** February 22, 2011, 05:13:24 pm »

I'm going on 20+ yr old fuzzy memory, but I swear they had metal over top of the wood with spot welded studs for the sticks to mount to. The buttons were the long type that went thru the wood and had the customary screwed to the wood leaf switches. I remember them be'n a ---smurfette--- to convert due to that.

Ok....I hadda look it up. I was wrong about the metal going al the way across the panel, but there were metal plates for the sticks so the washers could be under the panel/overlay.

See this page:
http://www.biltronix.com/robotron_03.html

SavannahLion · « **Reply #8 on:** February 22, 2011, 05:17:04 pm »

Most of the cabs I played up until I was about 8 or so sported unique controllers anyways, eg Tempest, Star Wars, that bastard Tail Gunner etc. Then I bought my Atari and didn't rejoin the arcade scene until just before the whole side by side fighting craze took hold, which would be about... the early 90's? late 80's? I think by then most OPs were putting the washer on top so I guess that's what I got used to.

Putting the washer under a metal CP makes sense though. The metal is thin enough that it would work out alright.

I thought Robotron were metal from reading http://www.robotron-2084.co.uk because he rolls his own metal CP. But images from ebay and others clearly show a wood CP. Then I found http://www.arcaderestoration.com/index.asp?OPT=3&CBT=66 which clearly shows how it was done. You would have to route or chisel out a recess for the joystick mounts, then, I assume, you apply the artwork after installing the joystick and washer.

Quote from: boardjunkie on February 22, 2011, 05:13:24 pm

Ok....I hadda look it up. I was wrong about the metal going al the way across the panel, but there were metal plates for the sticks so the washers could be under the panel/overlay.

See this page:
http://www.biltronix.com/robotron_03.html

I was puzzling over how one would remove the joystick for repair/replacement without damaging the artwork. I guess you don't.

@ OP

So now knowing how Robotron is constructed, it probably isn't a good comparison to make to a solid wood panel. They did, after all, "fake" a metal CP by popping in a metal plate for the washer to go under.

emphatic · « **Reply #9 on:** February 22, 2011, 05:19:13 pm »

I can't remember seeing under, but I remember hurting my fingers on holes not covered by dust covers though.

I say, why can't we have both, like this pimping fella from Germany did?

I have transparent ones myself, as I really like my CPO to show as much as possible. I get the whole "dusters under won't scratch" your panel thing though.

Xiaou2 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 22, 2011, 05:44:40 pm »

There are a few reasons why they changed the dust washers to sit on top:

1) Pinching of the skin on the side of the hand or the fingers of little kids

Quote

but I remember hurting my fingers on holes not covered by dust covers though.

2) If a drink spills, it runs off the top and around the DW, rather than get deeper down into the hole.

3) To save cost of routing the top of the wood panel for the DW to slide under the plexi.

4) Covers up ugly sides of a deep wood hole.

5) Keeping little kids from cramming the deep hole with garbage.

About #2, It also made it far more easy to just lift the washer up and or remove only the bat, rather than remove the entire joystick assembly to clean up the mess. (if the mess wasnt too bad)

The older Metal panels didnt matter as much because the material was thin. Much Less chance of a pinch, especially with the lower ball top sticks. Many of the metal panels were also pretty compact, and so a dw would have covered up a lot of the artwork for no good reason.

boardjunkie · « **Reply #11 on:** February 22, 2011, 06:31:36 pm »

Back in the old days, 90% of all ctrl panels were metal. Some had wood underneath for reinforcement (Midway panels). It just made for a better looking/working panel since all of the joysticks of the day were intended for mounting to metal. As you got up later in the 80s, wood panels became more common, with the exception of Dynamo cabs and the like. So from Simpsons/Turtles onward, most were wood with routed channels underneath for stick mounting. The wood had to be a certain thinkness to hold up to the abuse the stick would get, so the washer couldn't be under it anymore....it had to be on top.

One panel that was full metal over top of wood was the dedicated mortal kombat era Midway cabs.

VanillaGorilla · « **Reply #12 on:** February 22, 2011, 06:36:55 pm »

Xiaou - nice arguments! The diversion of fluids alone might be a good reason, and I never thought of the possibility of, or managed, pinching fingers...

When it comes down to it, I just prefer the cleaner look of the hidden dust washer. But for my fighter control panel, I will probably put them on top, because that is customary, and I will order clear ones from Akihabra shop like you show, Empathic...btw would that 'pimping fellow' be you?

boardjunkie · « **Reply #13 on:** February 22, 2011, 06:41:47 pm »

Aaahhhh.....now I remember why those Robotron panels sucked to convert. Since those metal mtg plates were recessed, we had to fill the void and hole with bondo and sand them flush. The spacing didn't work for a fighting game layout so it had to be completely redone. Gawd....I still have nightmares about ruining all those great old games to convert them into the latest fighting game or......Strata bowling, the first Golden Tee, etc.

boardjunkie · « **Reply #14 on:** February 22, 2011, 06:50:12 pm »

Speaking of pinching fingers.....anyone remember play'n Gyruss with the original joystick? What a hunk of crap that thing was....

brad808 · « **Reply #15 on:** February 22, 2011, 06:57:21 pm »

My MKII machine has wood covered by metal cp and there is round spots routed on top of the wood (underneath the metal) for the dust washers to sit.

....but I took them out and installed them on top, just because I'm 90's like that

Nothing passes those 1 second loading times faster then spinning around a dust washer!

boardjunkie · « **Reply #16 on:** February 22, 2011, 07:02:42 pm »

Heh....ok

And if you do it just right it sound just like Tempest spinner with dry bushings. BRRRrrrrrr.....

emphatic · « **Reply #17 on:** February 22, 2011, 07:35:00 pm »

Quote from: VanillaGorilla on February 22, 2011, 06:36:55 pm

I will order clear ones from Akihabra shop like you show, Empathic...btw would that 'pimping fellow' be you?

No, that's not my panel, I have EGRET IIs, not EGRET 3. Also, I'm from Sweden, not from Germany.

I don't think you can get clear washers from Akihabarashop though, but if you're in the US you can get them from http://www.tek-innovations.com/arthobbies/?loc=products&cat=7 The ones in the picture I posted are from arcadeshop.de

Quote from: brad808 on February 22, 2011, 06:57:21 pm

Nothing passes those 1 second loading times faster then spinning around a dust washer!

Good, I'm not alone in doing that.

HanoiBoi · « **Reply #18 on:** February 22, 2011, 10:20:50 pm »

I hear ya on the spinning. I did it years ago, but not so much lately. But...I had a proud daddy moment just last week when I saw my 6 year old son spin the washer all on his own and I know he didn't learn it from me. I think he was playing Mega Man or Bubble Bobble...

I also agree with many of Xiaou2's comments for the above CP. I will also add that I have no problems with them above the CP and actually find them to still have a 'clean look'. They're round, symmetrical and you can get them in a color to match your CP. If they don't physically get in your way during game play, I can almost guarantee that you won't be looking at them while you're playing.

Xiaou2 · « **Reply #19 on:** February 23, 2011, 12:37:43 am »

Thanks, but mostly those comments are based on my distant past experience of being a manager at a mall arcade for a few years.

Have it Both ways...

In the future, on my Own panel, I might go with an Opaque dust washer Under the plexi, and a Clear dust washer on the top.

Thereby not covering the artwork, and yet not allowing people to see the unsightly hole + joystick base.

TOK · « **Reply #20 on:** February 23, 2011, 05:22:32 am »

Many sticks have a lip around the top to provide clearance for the dust washer to be mounted beneath the panel regardless of material. Up top looks amateur to me, I can't help but associate it with all the bad JAMMA conversions I've seen.

emphatic · « **Reply #21 on:** February 23, 2011, 05:43:25 am »

I don't have homebuilt cabinets no more, so I don't have to decide what look better, I just do what the flyer shows:
http://flyers.arcade-museum.com/?page=flyer&db=videodb&id=5910&image=2

dandare · « **Reply #22 on:** February 23, 2011, 06:47:49 am »

Slightly off main topic here.

Being a recent convert from US/Euro (Happ) to Japanese controls (Sanwa/Seimitsu) I got a couple of JLF's and the came with 2 washers each.

Is one a spare? 1 over 1 under?

Bludgeon · « **Reply #23 on:** February 23, 2011, 07:10:48 am »

Yeah, one over one under. That's the JLFs come installed from my understanding.

Those 31mm washers from Art's Hobbies look really nice for those who prefer the unobtrusive look. Though, I wouldn't go as far as ordering a custom plexi for underneath, they don't fit the shaft quite as tightly as the official parts. But I mean, if you weren't going to have one on top at all, then you're probably not paranoid about a little dust making its way down into the stick anyhow.

Xiaou2 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 23, 2011, 11:42:05 am »

Ohh, I just remembered another reason....

While yes, there is a lip for a dust washer on most sticks... there were machines which the dust washers were mounted directly under the plexi. Meaning:

Plexi, dw, wood, joystick.

Not

plexi, wood, dw, joystick

The wood thus still had to be routed for the DW. This is how it was supposed to be installed with a wood control panel. Otherwise, the hole is too deep, allowing hand pinching, as well as crap getting in the hole.

The lip is meant for metal control panels only.

RayB · « **Reply #25 on:** February 23, 2011, 01:51:14 pm »

Quote from: boardjunkie on February 22, 2011, 04:33:52 pm

Under is correct for a *metal* control panel. For wood you have really no choice but to put it on top. I mean I guess you could put it under on wood, but it'd look retarded and would act as a debris *collector* instead of cover.

+1

VanillaGorilla · « **Reply #26 on:** February 23, 2011, 02:42:42 pm »

I wish I had affordable access to a break press and a cnc. I just dont like wood for a control panel material. I hate having to buy tall buttons, extended joystick handles, etc. just to work around its thickness. Most times when you want to mount 'original' arcade controls, that were designed to be mounted under metal, you gott jump through all sorts of hoops to just 'screw something to a board'.

Pesky kids, get offa my lawn, and take your dust washers with ya!

Donkbaca · « **Reply #27 on:** February 23, 2011, 03:01:25 pm »

The buttons you have to route out, but for the joys, why don't you just top mount?

Epyx · « **Reply #28 on:** February 23, 2011, 07:34:00 pm »

Quote

The buttons you have to route out, but for the joys, why don't you just top mount?

Agreed, that is my preference as well.

BurgerKingDiamond · « **Reply #29 on:** February 24, 2011, 03:06:55 pm »

for a thin metal panel I guess under is ok. But for a think wooden panel it makes no sense to have the washers underneath. You'd have these ugly massive 1/2 deep holes around the sticks.

Donkbaca · « **Reply #30 on:** February 24, 2011, 04:16:54 pm »

Not if you top mount them on the wood.

Xiaou2 · « **Reply #31 on:** February 24, 2011, 04:35:52 pm »

In all my years working on arcade machines, Ive never seen ANY wood panel machines with a "top" mounted stick.

Why do you suppose that is?

1) Because to route away enough material to top mount a stick, you have almost no structural support left. (unless you are using some sort of metal mounting adapter)

2) If you have to replace the stick, replace the spacer, and or clean the stick... you have to remove the plexi covering, and any artwork.

3) Its far less routing to make a 2mm depth for a dustwasher (if its not top mounted) than it is to route almost a CM for a stick to sit in.

Most all sticks are designed for wood control panel depths.

Donkbaca · « **Reply #32 on:** February 24, 2011, 04:45:10 pm »

Well with regards to your points:

1) You actually route out LESS with a top mount, all you need to do is rout out to depth of the mounting plate. Yeah, you have to cut a whole to put the rest of joystick through, but the mounting bolts are actually going through a lot of wood. Its plenty sturdy, especially for non-comnercial use.

2) Well, maybe with the spacer, all the other stuff you can do from the bottom. Plus, like I said, in a home use situation, you probably won't be doing this all that often.

3) You have to route ANYWAY if you bottom mount, In fact you have to route a lot more since you have to route oute several CM to get the jostick at the right depth, and seriously? 1cm is a lot more routing then 2mm?

4) I would say its more like 50-50 in terms of what is designed for wood panel vs metal panel

That being said, I have nothing against bottom mounting, just wanted to point out that top mounting IS an option.

Xiaou2 · « **Reply #33 on:** February 24, 2011, 05:24:52 pm »

Quote

1) You actually route out LESS with a top mount, all you need to do is rout out to depth of the mounting plate.

Quote

1) Because to route away enough material to top mount a stick, you have almost no structural support left. (unless you are using some sort of metal mounting adapter)

Quote

3) You have to route ANYWAY if you bottom mount,
4) I would say its more like 50-50

Maybe you are talking more recently, with options like Japanese sticks designed for metal / plastic control panels, and or sticks from modern vendors like GroovyGameGear/Ultimark. But back in the late 80s up to deep into the 2000's, pretty much everything was designed for wood control panels.

IE: Theres no need to route to install a happs competition joystick. They also dont come with any mounting plates.

The only widely used controller back then that I recall had a mounting plate, were trackballs.

bishmasterb · « **Reply #34 on:** February 25, 2011, 09:21:14 pm »

Mine go on top, with a really thin piece of felt stuck to the underside to keep them from scratching the control panel.

Bludgeon · « **Reply #35 on:** February 26, 2011, 07:39:27 am »

Hey, felt is a pretty nifty idea. Thanks for that tip. I have to admit I'm now torn because I still love the plexi for the purpose of showing off more art.


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Author Topic: Dust washers, on top or underneath the control panel? (Read 12297 times)