JERSEY JACK PINBALL

[ChadTower]

It never ceases to amaze me how penny ante employee fraud tends to be.  Yeah, we could all use a raise, but was it really worth losing your job over 3 days of pay?

When I ran a couple of Subways it always amazed me how little people would get fired over.  I would be forced to fire people over pocketing a $20.  It just never made sense to me that someone would be willing to lose their 40 hour job over a single twenty but it did happen.  Maybe they think they won't get caught and can keep doing it.  I would tell people clearly that if the drawer comes up under part of my job was to review the tapes from the cameras visibly pointing right at the register.  They'd still do it.   

[pinballjim]

Yeah, man, you don't screw around with the register.  What you DO do is eat all the food, drink all the dusty wine bottles, and float the keg (and give the Bud guy a free pizza if he tells the owner that the keg is 'old' and 'needs to be replaced' rather than 'empty').

[Xiaou2]

Heh, you ever think there may be real reasoning that Namco suspected their managers of embezzling money?

 What I did wasnt embezzling.  Namco set the game price at $300, and thats exactly what I paid Namco.  I just got an extra $100 from the person I re-sold it to.

 The theft they were talking about, was managers who sold game tokens out of their own pockets, rather than by machine.  Basically, taking the cash for themselves, with no record in the system.  Fudging numbers in paperwork to cover things up.

 After the suspected theft, they changed certain rules.  It used to be that employees could play free after hours as a perk.  Just open the coin door and credit the game up.  After lockdown, they actually told the managers to giver each employee like 30 tokens a week or something like that.  Its been so long I dont remember the exact amt.  Any credits added on a game due to malfunction, were to be logged from that point on as well.

[Donkbaca]

What you did was illegal. In the position you were, you had a duty to operate on the best interest of Namco, you didn't, you operated in your own self interest. It's a pretty clear case of breach of fiduciary duty and self dealing. What you did was pure theft. The guy bought a 400 machine from NAMCO, and you attempted to steal 25% of the price. You had no right to that money, you can't pocket money for selling something that isn't yours. What you should have done is sold it for 400, told your bosses and asked for a bonus, raise or promotion

[Vigo]

I would also call is embezzlement, misappropriation of property and fraud. It wasn't yours to sell. Company set the price and setup the network to sell the product at that price. You mislead the buyer that they were purchasing the product for the set price from Namco. You took $100 from him that he believed he was paying to Namco.

If I work at McDonalds and sell a $1 hamburger for $5, I can't justify it that I bought the hamburger immediately beforehand and resold it for $4 personal profit. That customer went to McDonalds, not me. That person believed McDonalds was selling the hamburger for $5.


From Wiki:

Embezzlement is a crime against ownership; that is, the owner's right to control the disposition and use of the property.

In criminal law, a fraud is an intentional deception made for personal gain or to damage another individual

[pinballjim]

Heh... I knew the wiki experts were gonna jump all over him.

People do that kind of crap all the time. 

If you're so certain that it's worth more than the asking price, buy it first and flip it elsewhere and you're fine.

 

[ChadTower]

Yeah, the wrongdoing happens when he sells it off the Namco floor for more than Namco's price.  All he had to do was buy it for $300 and sell it out of his own home and there is no problem.

[Vigo]

Exactly.

[lilshawn]

assuming there was no refund issued because of it, is it wrong to pocket jammed coins then?

[Xiaou2]

 The world is black and white 

Yeah, the wrongdoing happens when he sells it off the Namco floor for more than Namco's price.  All he had to do was buy it for $300 and sell it out of his own home and there is no problem.

 Correct. I shouldnt have done it, but, I was pretty desperate at the time. New car was $250 month, and insurance for a new driver, even at my older age, was like $240 month. It was a P.O.S. cavalier to boot (which didnt even come with a stereo). I didnt take anything from the store, but the customer was going to pay more.  Had I a van, I would have carted it home.

 Asked for a raise a few times, and even doing an excellent job, the DM wasnt budging. I was stupidly busting my butt +45 hrs a week, in a skilled and highly responsible position, for a mere $9.13 and hr. (no overtime. fixed salary) Even considering that I didnt do board work, thats really sad for a Mgt. position, let alone for all the mechanical repairs I did.

 FYI - not that it makes it any more right... the gamestore owner drives a gas guzzling decked out hummer.  And parks some sort of high speed racing / sports car in front of one of his many shops.

 

assuming there was no refund issued because of it, is it wrong to pocket jammed coins then?

 It was extremely rare that any coins were jammed, because the entire room ran on tokens.  Tokens left behind were put back into the coin box.

 In fact, many of us Mgrs were trying to make the most sales per week.  Trying to break a record. Compete against other locations..etc.  The better you ran the store, the more that could show, in the form of income.

 Me personally, I always loved games, and so I actually had the passion and motivation to fix them properly.  Sadly, this actually gt me frowned upon... because they wanted a person to just rig it and keep it collecting.  I spent more time on it, but my fixes would last yrs... rather than break down every week. (such as when I re-wired a road blasters wheel with heavy gauge speaker wire, cause the thin stock wires kept shearing)   Heh, I was probably the only Namco arcade Mgr. whos T2 had both working force feedback guns, as well as the holographic explosions (working flasher lamps behind the 2way mirror).


 In the end, the DM gave me about 6 'destroyed' redemption games right before busy season, with the intent of setting them up after the seasons end. I never had time to work on them. After season ended, I was still repairing games that made decent money.. and then the DM came in with a prize case and reamed me out for not being ready.

 I believe I was being set-up, now that I think about it.   He gave me like a 2weeks to get a list of things done or Id be fired.  I got everything done.. but he sat there and told me he was letting me go anyways, cause he had someone who he 'thought' was more motivated.  Id found out he had been training another guy from a different location for some time.  I probably could have fought it, but by this time, I was burned out, and just so sick of it all.

 The "Kid" they put in there was Useless.  Didnt care one bit about the place. Didnt know how to repair even the simple things, nor cared to even try. The place sunk like a stone in no time flat because of it. I think it was one year after he took over, before they shut the arcades doors forever. It was Sad, but it brought a bit of a smile to my face because of my poor experience with them.  The DM that axed me, was also let-go.

[Vigo]

I may speak out on the legal side of your past situation when you worked there, but I'm not gonna play the part of moral crusader. Meh, you did what you did. It's just good to see you are not kidding yourself about the reality of your actions.

[FrizzleFried]

Namco's Base-Office, told the managers that certain games were for sale.  However, then the district Mgr. would tell you not to sell certain games without his permission.  I sold like 4 games to a vendor one day, and I got reamed because there was nothing immediately available to replace them with.  Also, if a game did well in your location, you were told not to sell it.

 If you sold a game, you got a small commission.  Which still was better than nothing, considering the crappy pay I was getting.

 We had a multi-cart Neo-Geo for sale one day.. and I really wanted it for myself.  $300 was pretty cheap, but my finances were too restricted due to a brand new car, and super high insurance because I was a new driver.  I decided to set a price on the game to $400... and when the game was sold, Id write it up in my name, pocket the extra 100, and get the commission.  I didnt figure it would be all that big of a deal, because I could have just bought and sold the thing off anyways - off location.

 But the buyer was a game-store owner, who found out the prices from other locations... and threatened to turn me in unless I gave him the extra money back.  I got nervous, and folded.  I wish I would have just bought the thing and got someone to get it home for me.  It had an excellent monitor.

Which Batman game?

 Sega Batman Forever

X... admitting to fraud?  Wow...

[amendonz]

and you know people will remember it when xiaou next jumps on his moral high horse. 

[Xiaou2]

Theres a huge difference between charging a person more for something, than to belittle, troll, be a racist, etc.  Our entire society is based on buying and selling things... and sadly, its almost never a fair deal.

In fact, what I did was nothing compared to the thousands of part-time employees that gave out free credits, sold or traded their tokens off for meals and other things. Gave away prizes from the cases.  Didnt shred tickets - and recycled them to get large prizes...

 But anyways, I have no problem admitting when Im wrong or have done wrong things.  Its those people who cant admit things, and do not change, that are the people that have the real problem.  

 People who cant say they are sorry, People who have no conscience, People who wrong & torment others for their own amusement...  There are things are far more wrong that people do, that there are no laws pertaining to.

 Edit:

 Additionally, Just because a person has done something wrong, or been or acted in a wrong manor in their pasts.. does not mean they are now forfeit from scolding others for the same or similar behavior.

 We all make mistakes. We have the capability to grow, and change, and be better people.  We should expect to be scolded, expect to scold others when needed, and forgive, help reform, and understand... rather than permanently condemn.

[lilshawn]

Theres a huge difference between charging a person more for something, than to belittle, troll, be a racist, etc.  Our entire society is based on buying and selling things... and sadly, its almost never a fair deal.

In fact, what I did was nothing compared to the thousands of part-time employees that gave out free credits, sold or traded their tokens off for meals and other things. Gave away prizes from the cases.  Didnt shred tickets - and recycled them to get large prizes...

 But anyways, I have no problem admitting when Im wrong or have done wrong things.  Its those people who cant admit things, and do not change, that are the people that have the real problem. 

 People who cant say they are sorry, People who have no conscience, People who wrong & torment others for their own amusement...  There are things are far more wrong that people do, that there are no laws pertaining to.

 Edit:

 Additionally, Just because a person has done something wrong, or been or acted in a wrong manor in their pasts.. does not mean they are now forfeit from scolding others for the same or similar behavior.

 We all make mistakes. We have the capability to grow, and change, and be better people.  We should expect to be scolded, expect to scold others when needed, and forgive, help reform, and understand... rather than permanently condemn.

  wow, that was actually... genuine, earnest and whole-hearted. (checks temperature)

[Vigo]

Being straightforward here, X2, ok? 

The core of the issues when you get into your moral lectures on people is that you place yourself in as the judge of all things ethical. If someone was genuinely hurt or bullied online, I am all for standing up for that person, more power to you. You however tend to find an "invisible victim" You take offence at things because you think that someone out there in the world might be offended. You then take it upon yourself to crusade against that person, call them names, accuse them of your personal interpretation of the post, and genuinely offend and hurt others here on the board by insulting one of the members. You also don't realize that the posts you go out against were not made to intentionally hurt, troll, belittle, etc. You look for an apology where none is due, and especially not due to you.

Most people here don't want want to see anyone bullied here either, that is why they stand up against your posts. Things just end up turning ugly. 

You don't seem to realize that you are causing more hurt that the original post, and end up derailing threads in the process. I am trying to be sincere when I say that you would do much more good just reporting the issue to Saint, because if it is something that can be seen as offensive, Saint is the first person to want it off of his boards. It saves him going through a post and cleaning up every bit of the scuffle, anyway.

I'm not looking for a response or a fight here, just giving you some food for thought. Say what you will to disagree, but I am just glad to get this message out to you without it being in the middle of some pointless argument. I really hope this helps make things better on the boards.

[lilshawn]

just to add my 2 cents,

when reading something on paper and when hearing it from someones mouth are 2 completely different things.

when you hear someone say something, you can tell by the tone of their voice, by the way they carry themselves, by how fast or slow someone says it... it's very easy to determine if someone is joking/kidding around/serious by these cues.

when simply reading text, you don't have those cues to go by, but simply words. therefore the reader "says" it in their mind and tries to insert the expression from sterile text. it is extremely easy to take something the wrong way without those cues from the person. it is all in the current mindset of the reader.

keep that little tidbit in your mind when you read things on the internet, you are only getting part of the whole picture.

[MaineEvent]

Yep, I'm looking forward to the new project from Jersey Jack too.....


chirp chirp, chirp chirp (crickets)

[FrizzleFried]

Theres a huge difference between charging a person more for something, than to belittle, troll, be a racist, etc.  

You are right... one is illegal ...the others are not.

[TOK]

 

[pinballjim]

If you guys wanna argue about stupid stuff and wring your hands all the time, I HIGHLY suggest permanently migrating to RGP.  You've got about a dozen autistics you can count on to respond to any thread at any time of day, so you won't run out of reading material.

The writing's on the wall with this hobby... enjoy it while it lasts.  There wasn't a single person on that episode of American Pickers younger than 45.   

[TOK]

If you guys wanna argue about stupid stuff and wring your hands all the time, I HIGHLY suggest permanently migrating to RGP.  You've got about a dozen autistics you can count on to respond to any thread at any time of day, so you won't run out of reading material.

The writing's on the wall with this hobby... enjoy it while it lasts.  There wasn't a single person on that episode of American Pickers younger than 45.   

I think one of the issues is the expense. I have plenty of relatives that are younger and love playing the pins at my house, but there are very few people in their 20's that will drop kind of money required to get a nice, working game... A N.I.B. pro model Stern costs more than a lot of them paid for their cars.

I really like pins and still get sticker shock. You can get a whole row of nice vids for the price of even a moderately desirable pin. The only way I've been able to justify it is by getting games that need a little work.

 

[ChadTower]

That's just not true.  There are a lot of games that are well under a grand and are fun to play.  Don't confuse your personal preferences with the entire hobby.

[pinballjim]

I've got exactly one game (WCS 94) in my pile that cost me more than a grand, two others that are close, and the rest were $600ish or less.

 

[ChadTower]

Yep.  My high is $1200 but that includes a few A list titles like Twilight Zone, Revenge From Mars, and Fathom. 

[Vigo]

I think the problem is that pinball restoration and collecting just doesn't seem to be such an accessable hobby for newcomers. At least, from an outsider point of view. For me, someone who doesn't know the ins and outs of a pinball machine itself, I steer away from taking the plunge on any old machine to learn on. I don't know the availability of parts, wouldn't be able to access the condition, and am worried I might get in way over my head when I would need to work on it. Not to even get into the real estate it could take up to work on.

Right now, I am holding out, waiting for that "opportunity buy" to come along. For my first pin, I don't think I would be willing to pay much more than $150-200 for a one that seems to be in reasonable condition. I just have the fear that costs would grow exponentially, and I would end up biting more than I can chew.

 

[ChadTower]

Well, you're either motivated enough to jump in on a cheap machine and figure all that out, or you're not.  Not trying to be a dick but that's pretty much the line to cross or not cross.

I would say grab some cheap machine that you can physically inspect.  Don't cherry pick a title.  Look for obvious damage to the circuit boards.  That's the big one.  Art and such are easier to fix for novices than the PCBs and isn't even required.  Damages to look for on the PCBs would be obviously broken or burned parts.  You don't have to understand what you're looking at to notice a big black spot on a PCB.  Pull up the playfield and make sure there isn't anything obviously wrong like a vermin nest or a bunch of cut wires around an empty spot.

Other than that, so long as you didn't invest $750 up front, the risk is minimal.  Jump in and have at it.  There are more online tutorials and parts vendors for pinball than any technical hobby I've tried yet.

[Vigo]

Naw, I don't see that as a dick comment, just a dose of reality that I have been coming to realize. I know a few guys that have had good $50 machines fall in their laps, I am not ever that guy. I have been browsing for pinball machines along with arcade machines for a few years now, and I believe I have passed up number of good purchases, while trying to convince myself that better one will come along. I've been wanting a pinball machine more and more recently, so I guess next time my project fund fill up, I better take the plunge.

Also, I'm guessing that it is really good advice for what to look out for when looking to buy a machine. Thanks, I'll be sure to keep that in mind. 

[pinballjim]

Drive to Texas, I'll load you up.  I'm passing up deals left and right because I'm out of space.   

[bleargh]

Drive to Texas, I'll load you up.  I'm passing up deals left and right because I'm out of space.   

Which is in total contrast to the scene up here in British Columbia... I've been searching for a pinball to get my hands for close to seven years, and its only been in the last year that I've been able to score one (two actually, I got really lucky).

There's a small number of pinheads in Vancouver and Victoria that literally buy up everything that comes onto the market, do a quick shop job to clean it up, then try to flip it for triple what they paid for it.  Basically, if you don't reply to the ad within 15m of it being posted, you're not getting it.  And more than once I've been in the car, on the way over w/cash after speaking to the seller, only to get there and find out that they're not interested in selling any more as "He's coming over from Vancouver w/his truck tomorrow".

My first score was a Space Odyssey I picked up at a local silent auction (so thankfully, the ad was basically never seen by anyone interested in pinballs), but it needed a lot of work.  Started pulling it apart back in Feb, still have it in pieces right now (touch-ups done, clear is curing).  Its been a whole lot of work to get it looking nice, but its finally coming together.

Second score was a Black Knight, which I only got because I (for once) managed to be the first person to respond to the ad, and the seller was an honest enough guy to not sell it out from under me while I drove ~90m to go see it.  I've seen (and lost) six other Black Knights over the years here on the island, most of which were "~$12-1500, not working", so to finally get one was a nice surprise.  This one also needs some work, but I'm hesitant to whether or not I really want to go whole hog on touching up the playfield; although it'll look real nice when its done, that's gonna take more time than I want to spend right now.  Ah, decisions decisions... 

[ChadTower]

(touch-ups done, clear is curing).  Its been a whole lot of work to get it looking nice, but its finally coming together.

That's the sort of advanced work that is totally optional.  It's great to do but a clean and shopped game will play just as well if you don't touch it up and clear it. 

I know what you mean about the deep pockets crew.  The scene is very competitive up here in New England, too.  We have the benefit of a lot of machines creeping northwards from NJ.  It gives us enough supply that there are enough B/C list games to supply the regular joes while the deep pockets crew fight over the same 10 Williams titles.

[pinballjim]

Sure, competitive buyers can be a pain, but we've got sellers playing dumb, too.

For example, yesterday, a Getaway hit the San Antonio Craig's List for $150.  The seller didn't post his real e-mail, address, or a phone number.  I sent him an e-mail, within an hour or so of his ad, asking his number, where he was located, etc.  His response is "Close to downtown, I'm currently taking offers."

Yeah, well, this isn't my first rodeo. 

Call up another collector, sure enough, this seller is on a fishing trip for a price war and has us all lined up to see who will take his bait.

In Houston, a couple of them have gotten sick of it and they're doing things like, "oh, man, I'll give you a thousand bucks for that thing if you can give me 20 minutes to get there... wait... can I call you right back?" -CLICK!-

Anyway, not my thing, I don't play games like that but it's kinda funny.  Also doesn't help that non-collectors get idiotic with the high offers, either.  Lost out on a Zaccaria to some guy that paid twice the asking price and had no idea how to fix pinballs but had a pile of dead ones in his apartment.

I mean, yeah, he owns it and I don't, so I guess he "wins", but what is the point??


 

[Donkbaca]

Here is the rub, it all depends on local markets, since shipping a machine is several hundred, and involves you buying a machine sight unseen. The thing also, is that I o ly have room for one or two pins, so I want a nice one. Getting a beater EM for 100 bucks just isn't what I would want.  So, since I can only have one or two pins, I would want a more modern, DMD pin.  Also having never worked on a pin, not getting one in good shape is something I am not sure I would want to invest the time, expense, frustration to get a beater working again.  Criticize me all you want, just giving you a perspective. That's what makes it hard to break into the hobby unless you few up a pinhead and have a passion for all pins. Most people o know have probably only played a handful of machines in their entire lives

[ChadTower]

Of course that makes it hard to get in because of how you want to do it.  You want a game in the deep end of the price pool that doesn't require much work.  That doesn't make it the fault of the market.  You're just asking too much.

[Vigo]

I think it is the simply the reality of the situation for a number of people interested in the hobby. The repair work probably only seems more daunting than it is. So you look at a pin that does not seem scary to a rookie, in reality at most only has some burnt out lights and needs a bit of cleaning. Yeah, it is stupid of us to be so freaked by the prospect of learning on the fly. I'm not gonna lie...I'm in that boat myself.

Most people probably end up just buying something fully restored, make a virtual pinball machine, or buy nothing and pursue other interests. I am thinking I want to take the plunge though, I am pretty sure I am just being a baby about the whole thing.

[MaineEvent]

I had been dying for years to get a pinball in my place.
I would ritualistically scan Craigslist with nothing great for me.
Then I stumbled across a Pinball League and signed right up. Suddenly I met a group of people who had lots of knowledge and connections in pinball and lots of access to games I would have never seen/played by just hitting local pubs and arcades. Immediately I made a connection and ended up buying a pin from him a couple weeks later.
 If you are looking to buy, I highly suggest joining a club or league, even if it's just online.

[Donkbaca]

Nah, I am with you. I would only want to fix something that I would want to keep around and play. Id I fou d one in bad shape, I wouldn't be able to assess what exactly was wrong with it until after I bought it, then there is the risk of dumping even more money into it, along with the time, frustration and space. I would want a DMD game because in general they have deeper rules and have better replay ability. I wouldn't want to constantly rotate games out every fee months, at least not at first. So really I would need to find a fun DMD machine for around a grand that is in good working order. If I can't find that, I won't make the jump

[TopJimmyCooks]

Vigo, I just took that plunge and bought a Bally Harlem Globetrotters off of a local dude on craigslist.  I am in NC and the market is slow around here, not fast like texas.  The ad came up, I went to see it and finally bought it for $550.  It was playing fine but with some lighting problems.  Got it home, and the main board crapped out within a few days. I've since gotten everything working mechanically and electrically (With help from several here) and am really enjoying the thing. 

This thing next to an arcade game is like an AC cobra next to a corvette, you know which one people will be drawn to like flies. 

Bottom line, watch the ad's, take the plunge, realize you are going to blow $200-300 beyond the purchase price to get the thing happy.  Get a SS for the first one. EM's are tougher to work on, DMD's are $$$$.  Try to get one that at least partially works.  The sourcing, soldering, replacing parts and researching are fun.  Unlike PC's, there's rarely much mystery, nearly every problem has been solved and diagnosed a million times before. 

bottom line, just do it.   

[Vigo]

Haha. the peer pressure! Argh, Arcade cabinets were just the gateway drug!   


I think I'll will, don't worry. Thanks for the perspective from someone who had just gone though with it. 

[pinballjim]

I really don't understand the problem.  You might spend $200 on an EM, fix it up, play it awhile, and sell it for a $100 loss?  Who cares?  You blow $100 on dumb crap all the time.