Pole Position: Mamed? Help needed!

[newkillergenius]

Hey everyone, I have something I have been meaning to do for a while now.

I have a very clean Pole Position cabinet, 3 sets of boards, and all of them are corroded and beyond repair.
Anyone knowing anything about Pole Position will quickly tell you that keeping these machines running correctly is a major hassle.  In fact, 1 out of every 10 times I turn it on it doesn't work anymore.  

So, hell with the original boards.  I'm yanking them out and attempting to run the game via MAME.  Sort of like this bloke did here.




So I sorta understand what he has done here, but I really need a few suggestions from some of you as to how to go about getting this project going.

I have removed all of the original arcade components and harness from the machine.  In fact, anyone helping out who would like to have any of these parts I will send them to you for free if your suggestions are helpful.  (except the board, for legality reasons)

Here is what I have to use:

Pole Position cabinet with wheel, shifter and pedal
Pentium 3 PC w/ 40 GB HD
19'' LCD monitor
PS-2 mouse
PS-2 Keyboard
PC speaker system
Windows XP installation disc

I know how to use MAME (for the most part) though I am not fluent, and may need a bit of help.
I assume I will install XP, install MAME and acquire the Pole Position rom, and set the machine up to boot directly to Pole Position upon entering windows (unless someone has a better idea)

Apart from that, I just don't really understand how I will be able to get all the controls (wheel, pedal, shifter) interfaced.
In David's video, he describes the mouse as being the entire input device for every single item.  Left click was shift, right click was accel, etc.
I just don't get how he did it.  Hopefully some of you can help?

If there is any interest we'll do a step-by-step here, include some how-to pics, and maybe also help some other PP & PPII owners out there dust off one of their old favorites!
Any help would be truly appreciated!  

[BadMouth]

You'll most likely use an Opti-Pac or Opti-Wiz interface for the wheel.
I believe they include inputs for two buttons which are seen as left and right mouse buttons,
but you'll probably need another interface (I-Pac, Key-Wiz, keyboard hack, etc) to have
enough inputs for the shifter, coin input, etc.

Do a search for Pole Position in the main forum.  
There were some recent threads about wiring the original opto boards to the opti-pac.

There is a link to a list of 360 degree wheel driving games in the Driving Cab Info thread in my sig
(in case you want to see what else might work on the cab in addition to pole position)

[newkillergenius]

BadMouth, thank you thank you for your reply!!!

(I'll never use a KeyWiz again in my life, but I could try the opti-pac....)

I was hoping there was some way to use the optical wheel mouse to avoid any costs though.....trying to be low-dough on this one, and from what I have heard it will work...

[leapinlew]

This may be of interest to you
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=52577.0

I was doing something not entirely different and several people chimed in. I figured you might be able to contact those people, or it may help you in some fashion. Good luck.

[huygens]

A mouse hack may work, but the opti-wiz is pretty cheap and definitely will. The shifter only uses one switch so the three mouse buttons should be enough.
To properly interface the accelerator pedal you'd need an analog interface like the A-Pac from Ultimarc as it uses a pot rather than a switch. You could attach a switch to the pedal and hook it up to your optical interface, but your accelerator would then only have two positions (on/off).
Also you can connect the original arcade monitor to your pc, so you might want tuo use it rather than the LCD. If you want to use the arcade monitor you'll need a video amp and software to output a 15khz signal from your graphics card.

[BadMouth]

Actually, while doing some experimenting, I used an optical mouse placed on the backside of the steering wheel hub and it seemed to work fine.
I only played for a minute or two, so I can't guarantee anything.

You can also hack an old ball style mouse to take the place of the opti-pac, depending on your skillset (I've never done it).
Google "mouse encoder hack" or something similar and you'll find some tutorials.

[BadMouth]

Does the computer happen to have an old joystick gameport?

If it does, you can wire an analogue pedal to it without much trouble.
You just have to swap out the original pot for a 100k one.

It will also give you 2-4 button inputs to work with, depending on whether it supports 2 joysticks or not.
Between that and the mouse, you might be able to pull everything off without buying an interface.

[newkillergenius]

Guys, thanks so much for your help.  Who knew an old school mouse would become such a commodity?  lol

So a co-worker and I found an old PS-2 mouse and disassembled it.  Looks like I understand that part.

@Huygens:  The old monitor is already out and in an After Burner!      But I also have a 19'' CRT VGA monitor I am thinking of putting in instead for that more authentic look.
Also, I don't mind the gas pedal only having off/on capabilities.  After all, if you release the pedal, it will act the same, I think?  Either way, that won't really matter to me or my guests, but is surely a noteworthy issue.

So far so good, I will update this as we go along- thanks everyone, and cheers!!!  

[D_Harris]

If I mention on this forum that I want to hack a mouse, there are those who come out of the woodwork and call me ignorant for going with such an outdated way to interface.

Nevertheless, it seems that without the hack method you'd need two interfaces.  

Also, having to use multiple ports means multiple problems.

Nevertheless, I hope you are aware that there is no way to get the exact same control response with MAME as you'd get with the original arcade hardware/software.

That is why I went through a lot of trouble getting my Pole Position working and staying away from MAME for this game.

(BTW. If you are going to sell off any parts let me know. I can always use stuff I may need to cannibalize for when things go wrong).  

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[vidmouse]

I've done 3 mouse hacks so far and have never regretted it.

On my upright SCI driving cab, I hacked a mouse and hacked a
gamepad to give myself extra buttons for the shifter, pedal,
trigger, player start, and so on.  I never documented the mouse
hack for it, but it's basically the same hack I did on my trackball, which
I did document roughly:



(more on my diary page here)

One thing to note if you do hack a mouse -- I hacked it
so that the steering wheel would control the vertical motion
of the mouse, not the horizontal (ie only the blue/violet
wires in the diagram above) -- that way I could use it
to cycle through games in Mala front-end.

If you need help or more tips just let me know (PM)

[leapinlew]

Nevertheless, I hope you are aware that ther3 is no way to get the exact same control response with MAME as you'd get with the original arcade hardware/software

Darren is 100% correct. NewKillerGenius, you should consider this carefully. I can tell you what my experiences were with Pole Position and you can be the judge.

1. The switch based pedal doesn't work anywhere near as well as a POT. Instead of holding the gas pedal half way down to round a turn, you have to lift your foot off and then put it back on the gas (like pumping a brake) to TRY to get the car to find the speed you want.
2. The shifter doesn't recognize if it's in hi or lo - it only switches once the shifter has been moved. It can be in the hi position but be in lo spot on the CP. As soon as you move the shifter, it recognizes a button press and switches. You can get a version of MAME that says Hi or Lo on the screen to help.  

In either scenario, my guests had no idea why they were crashing so much or weren't going fast enough. End result, they didn't play more than 1 game. It really ruined the experience. I don't think there is much you can do about the shifter, but the gas pedals should definitely be a POT.

Here is a pic of my cab:

All said and done, it played Off Road, and Super Sprint well. Everything else was a compromise. I would not build it again.

[newkillergenius]

Wow, thank you all for your replies and interest.  I really appreciate the time you took to write.

After reading all of this, it really is a bit discouraging that the machine will lose so much of it's integrity.  Especially in relation to the gas and shifting.
I'm not sure the game would be enjoyed by many, as Leapinlew stated.  It just seems to 'un-authentic', but I wonder then, what choice do I have to resurrect this old beauty?

Should I just bite the bullet and buy an opti-pac, or a "whatever"-pac?  Is there such a device that will work with the existing parts in the machine as it sits right now? 
Because all of the parts in the machine are fully working and very smooth when stored, just the boards are ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.   

Whaddya think?

I will get some pictures up here tomorrow.  Thanks again everyone for all of the advice!  I'd like to explore all the possibilities before doing this mouse hack at this point. 
 

[D_Harris]

Unfortunately, there is no easy way around this.

As far as the controls, MAME doesn't do a good job in the conversion from analog to digital.

So since I wanted a classic driving game in my collection, I ended up sending three Pole Position PCB boardsets to Dick Millikan and he repair one for me in exchange for keeping the other two. (It's unfortunate that Pole Positions are notorious for board problems).

And outside of how difficult it is to hack a driving game CP in the first place, none of the controller sellers have a controller that would allow one to create a decent spinner control panel that would allow you to play more than just the simple simple driving, trackball, or spinner game it is made for anyway. For any control panel to emulate more than just the simple analog based CPs of the classic games two controllers and therefore the use of two computer ports, would be needed.

(Nevertheless, if you still decide to go with the MAME hack, I'm still interested in the left over parts). 

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[newkillergenius]

Right on, Darren- going to have a look at the opti-pac tonight and hope to visit with Andy a bit about it.  I will post up tomorrow with some thoughts.  If you need any of the guts i would be happy to help.   

[emphatic]

If you're only going to run Pole Position, why not use AdvanceMAME for DOS? No Windows etc and super fast boot time. If you have a cd-rom, you won't even need a harddrive as you can do a AdvanceCD. I know someone who did this, but that was with digital controls only though. Or you could make a bootable USB stick. I used to have a multigame JAMMA PCB that someone I know hacked to allow use of AdvanceMAME, and I still have the bootfiles if you're interested. They are setup to first put the computer from vga to 15khz then load AdvanceMENU. I'm sure the boot file is easy to change to run AdvanceMAME directly with a specified rom instead. Also, you can just turn the cabinet off without O/S issues like a Win machine.

[newkillergenius]

If you're only going to run Pole Position, why not use AdvanceMAME for DOS? No Windows etc and super fast boot time. If you have a cd-rom, you won't even need a harddrive as you can do a AdvanceCD. I know someone who did this, but that was with digital controls only though. Or you could make a bootable USB stick. I used to have a multigame JAMMA PCB that someone I know hacked to allow use of AdvanceMAME, and I still have the bootfiles if you're interested. They are setup to first put the computer from vga to 15khz then load AdvanceMENU. I'm sure the boot file is easy to change to run AdvanceMAME directly with a specified rom instead. Also, you can just turn the cabinet off without O/S issues like a Win machine.

Hi emphatic

Sounds like a nice idea, though there will actually be a VGA monitor in the cabinet.  I do like the idea of just DOS though, no Windoze.  I am uncertain if I possess the actual programming skills to pull it off though- if as you say you have those files or maybe a bit of help on how to set it up I would be interested...
I mostly collect dedicated machines, and this would be my only emulated machine, so I would like it to seem as original as possible.  And yeah I only plan to have Pole Position in it, maybe Pole Position II, as I don't own any additional boards (driver style) besides those two.   

[newkillergenius]

I sent a message to Andy at Ultimarc, a wonderful place filled with magic!  He is usually pretty prompt about returning messages so I will post back soon to see if any of those products would be a better choice.
Thanks to everyone for all the help so far, I have a much broader understanding of whats going on here now, that's for sure.  I really want this machine to 'feel' as authentic as possible.

Be back soon- 

[emphatic]

Why the VGA screen? If you get one of these: http://www.ultimarc.com/vidamp.html and the onboard video can output 15kHz in DOS (easier than in Windows) you should just have to tweak the controls in AdvanceMAME. Also, setting up the files I have to run Pole Position directly should be quite easy. I can have a look and see if I can get it to work, just gonna "find" the Pole Position rom. Just ask Andy @ Ultimarc if his controls work in DOS (in case you're getting your solution from him). The hardest part of a non-hdd setup is making the CD/memory card bootable, so it should be quite straightforward.

Btw, if your PCB's are giving you headaches, did you check the voltages? Perhaps your Power supply is on the fritz?

[newkillergenius]

Why the VGA screen? If you get one of these: http://www.ultimarc.com/vidamp.html and the onboard video can output 15kHz in DOS (easier than in Windows) you should just have to tweak the controls in AdvanceMAME. Also, setting up the files I have to run Pole Position directly should be quite easy. I can have a look and see if I can get it to work, just gonna "find" the Pole Position rom. Just ask Andy @ Ultimarc if his controls work in DOS (in case you're getting your solution from him). The hardest part of a non-hdd setup is making the CD/memory card bootable, so it should be quite straightforward.

Btw, if your PCB's are giving you headaches, did you check the voltages? Perhaps your Power supply is on the fritz?

Well, to be honest, the monitor was removed with the boards, and given to a friend who really really wanted an arcade monitor that said "GAME OVER" in his After Burner.  (hell, he needed a monitor, and I planned to do a Mame conversion on it.)
As far as the boards, I have repaired them countless times, and even added the switching power supply mod.  We're through with those.  Went for 35$ on Tulsa CL about a month ago.  

[newkillergenius]

Got a response from Andy, I think he is fairly sure the OptiPac will work well for this, but needed a better view of the shifter assembly, so I sent him this exploded view from the manual.  With a on/off cherry I dont think it should be so bad, but as LeapinLew said I want to make sure everything is always in the right position.  Picture related.

ALSO:

looks like I am looking for the recompile of MAME v0.56 that supports proper arcade shifting.  Anybody have any clue what I am talking about or where to obtain that?

[BadMouth]

Not sure about the recompiled v0.56.  You can get mame v0.56 from the mamedev website and then you'll have to "rollback" your rom to that version.
That's a whole 'nutha threads worth of reading.  Do a search of BYOAC for rollback roms.

Minwah did a custom compiled version of v1.25 that addresses shifter issues.  
I'm assuming that pole position is included in that, but I could be assuming wrong.
It probably lists specific games in the release notes.
You can download it here (SHIFTERMAME):
http://mamewah.mameworld.info/downloads.htm

Last change to the pole position rom since then was v1.38u4, so if you can find one slightly older than that, you may get away without having to roll it back.
http://maws.mameworld.info/maws/
(there are still a lot of 1.37 roms floating around out there)

[newkillergenius]

Badmouth, that is incredibly helpful.  Thanks man.   

OK, so as soon as this clock hits 4:30, I'm outta here to go pull the PP out of the storage and bring it home.  Then scrub it down and remove any / all critters. 

I will pull all the remaining guts and set them aside for any contributors that want em.  Pull off the cp and remove all the components and see what we can do with this old girl.  Pics on the way.

Thanks all, and cheers

[heinekenlvr]

I built a Pole Position dedicated MAME that plays nothing but various versions of PP and PP2. To solve the shifter problem I used shiftermame360. That took care of the the on-off problem usually associated with the shifter. I used an Apac for the gas pedal and it works great with the POT. I am running Atomic as my FE.
I agree that the MAME version of PP/PP2 will never give you the 100% feel of the original but if you incorporate shiftermame360 along with the Apac, the MAME version can be very very close...at least my 4 year old thinks so.

[newkillergenius]

heinekenlvr, that is a BRILLIANT machine!!!   I think I would very much like to talk to you then, if you find the time.  I have done some Atomic config'n so I wouldn't need too much help.  I'll send you a PM-

So, pulled her out of purgatory last night, and actually ended up working on a good base cleaning for around 4 hours or so.  
Scotch-brite, MPL, Windex, Fantastik, toothpicks, screwdrivers etc all came out of the woodwork- just to clean.  
I went ahead and pulled the entire harness and the 'big blues'.  Those have actually been replaced recently and may be of use to someone!
Also removed the cage and fans.  That cage is a monster, and I am happy to donate it if anyone wants, but I'm gonna have to insist you pay the shipping on that one.  

So, after 4 hours or so of cleaning, she looks suitable enough to begin a build.  Here are some progress pics.

Pulled the cabinet into the garage.  Nothing to be ashamed of, but boy does it need some cleaning.







Started by removing the entire harness, fans, cage and caps.  Left the control pots for volume and test mode mounted in case I decide to use them somehow in the future.
After that, got down to some nitty gritty cleaning.





Jeez, never noticed how awful the lighting is in these photos!  I gotta do something about that!
Scrubbed down the CPO with some Fantastik.  If you've never used that, I highly recommend it.  Available almost anywhere too.



Wiped down the old bezel using a blue shop towel and a small amount of warm water.  It was SUPER filthy.



The shifter was just gross.  Years of sweaty dead skin cells and grossness was stuck in the grooves of the Atari logo.  Joe grabbed a small flathead and a toothpick with some WD-40 and got it looking like new.







Now it could pass for factory new!



So far so good.  We also removed the CP to lubricate the parts in the shifter and at the main gear on the steering wheel, (making sure not to get any fluids near the original optics, in case the end up being used!)
More to come, she still needs a little damp wiping out on the inside, after it was completely vacuumed it still left a little residue behind.
Also going to retrofit the monitor this Friday and decide on which CPU to install, and order some plastic PCB feet.  Control panel is looking next to new now though.



Sorry for the low- lit images, I'll grab the better camera next time around.
Cheers all!

[heinekenlvr]

Your lucky that your side art looks to be in fairly good shape. The cabinet (other than being dirty) seems to bee in good shape as well. When I got mine, it had cabinet damage that needed to be repaired and the side art was trashed. I peeled all the side art off and stenciled the original art back on except for the 'square' on the sides which was a repo. I have seen that replacement side art is now available for the entire side. I guess it depends on how far you want to take the restoration. Some of us are complete nuts.

[D_Harris]

As for your cabinet repairs, did you use MDF or plywood? A lot of Atari cabinets are mostly MDF and heavy, but I don't know if it is a good idea to not use the original material to replace any missing chucks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[heinekenlvr]

When in doubt use Bondo. The chunks that were missing were not all that bad. The cabinet definitely is MDF so a couple of the corners were broken and there were a couple of gouges in the sides. Bondo is awesome.

[newkillergenius]

Your lucky that your side art looks to be in fairly good shape. The cabinet (other than being dirty) seems to bee in good shape as well. When I got mine, it had cabinet damage that needed to be repaired and the side art was trashed. I peeled all the side art off and stenciled the original art back on except for the 'square' on the sides which was a repo. I have seen that replacement side art is now available for the entire side. I guess it depends on how far you want to take the restoration. Some of us are complete nuts.

Man, that's fantastic.  You did a great job man-  never give that up!   

[taylormadelv]

I'm not completely positive about this but I think you need an APAC for this. The steering wheel is a pot or pots, not a spinner. So you need to hack to the APAC to get the pots to work in mame. The gas pedal is also an anlaog control, not just the on/off switch in some versions of mame I have seen. Or you will need to reconstruct a steering mechanism using a spinner and trackball adaptor/optipac/TT2, whatever. The TT2 will simplify things in terms of controls(You can attatch a steering wheel to it) but make it much more complicated to physically build.
PP is a beast to mame, I will be following this one....

[BadMouth]

I'm not completely positive about this but I think you need an APAC for this. The steering wheel is a pot or pots, not a spinner.

It's a spinner.  The opti-pac (or mouse hack) is the correct interface for the wheel.

newkillergenius, I do wish you'd consider keeping the pedal analogue.
In some versions of Pole Position, the tires will screech every time you take off if you don't have an analogue gas pedal.

I mentioned it earlier, but does your old P3 computer happen  to have a joystick gameport?

If so, you've already got your interface.  All you need is a $3 potentiometer to replace the one in the pedal.

[newkillergenius]

I'm not completely positive about this but I think you need an APAC for this. The steering wheel is a pot or pots, not a spinner.

It's a spinner.  The opti-pac (or mouse hack) is the correct interface for the wheel.

newkillergenius, I do wish you'd consider keeping the pedal analogue.
In some versions of Pole Position, the tires will screech every time you take off if you don't have an analogue gas pedal.

I mentioned it earlier, but does your old P3 computer happen  to have a joystick gameport?

If so, you've already got your interface.  All you need is a $3 potentiometer to replace the one in the pedal.

Yeah, I agree I'd like to keep the gas pedal analog.  I don't actually have a gameport on this CPU, but may consider finding one that does.  Still waiting on a response from Andy....

[newkillergenius]

Reply from Andy- your opinions?

Andy Warne to me   
show details 2:35 AM (6 hours ago)

Justin,

We do have an interface which will connect all of these controls. This is the U-HID on www.u-hid.com
This was specifically designed for driving cabinets. There is another advantage in that you can configure the board to send a pulse when the shifter switch is closed which avoids having a permanently stuck keypress when it is in one position.

Andy

[BadMouth]

Looks like it will work as long as the wheel movement is seen in windows as mouse movement.
http://www.u-hid.com/home/cms.php?page_id=8

Setup sounds like it might be more complicated than using an A-pac & Opti-Pac.
I'd download the instructions and see what you're in for with each one.

Personally, I'd compare the total price of the U-HID to buying an A-pac+Opti-Pac and go whichever way is cheapest.

[newkillergenius]

Personally, I'd compare the total price of the U-HID to buying an A-pac+Opti-Pac and go whichever way is cheapest.

Agreed.  I will do some crunching.

Thanks all so far@!!!   

[newkillergenius]

So I have been looking at A-pac and Opti-pac.  Looks like the combination of the two would work better for me, but I would be able to use both of these items at the same time, as separate HID's?  Can anyone confirm this would work?

[newmanfamilyvlogs]

You essentially configure each input in mame as it's own entity with no regards to what input the other devices are on.

[BadMouth]

You essentially configure each input in mame as it's own entity with no regards to what input the other devices are on.

+1

If the U-Hid maps the wheel to mouse movements and the pedal & buttons to gamepad movements, I don't see how it could show up as a single device anyway.

Mame is super flexible.  Any combination of controls will work together seamlessly. 
I used to use an act labs steering wheel, pedal set & shifter.  They show up as 3 different devices. 
I've also used a hacked mouse with the act labs pedals.  It's not an issue for mame.
It is an issue for pc games and some other emulators (and there are work-arounds), but that doesn't apply here.

The A-Pac & Opti-Pac will do the job without question.  Order them! 

You might want to ask Andy if you would be better off swapping out the 5k pot in the pedal for a 100k one.
Since they designed the A-Pac with arcade controls in mind, it might not make a difference.
But on hacked joysticks, gameports & such, you get a much smoother response with a 100k pot.

[newkillergenius]

Cheers everyone

So it looks like the only issue I have is the shifter.  Yes MAME will detect upon a button press (or shift) that the shifter is assigned at that point for that function.
however, since the shifter is a switch, it will only be open or closed.  MAME will not know what position the shifter starts in though.
For example, if the game starts with the shifter in high position, MAME will still start as if the shifter was in low, and so on.  That's the only issue I need to resolve before proceeding.
Anyone have any ideas? 

[BadMouth]

I don't have any personal experience with it, but I'm pretty sure that's what using mame v.56 or Minwah's Shiftermame accomplishes.

From what I've read, in those versions you have to hold a key down for it to stay in high gear.
If you release the key, it automatically goes back to low gear.

So if the shifter holds a switch closed when it is in high gear, this would work properly.

They changed it in later versions so people wouldn't have to hold a button down, but it screws it up for someone with an actual shifter. 

[heinekenlvr]

The Opti Pac and A Pac will work nicely together. Mame will recognize the steering wheel as a 'mouse' and it recognizes the a-pac as a separate device. To solve the shifter problem use MAMEWAH's shiftermame download. Google 'shiftermame' and download it from mamewah's website. If I remember correctly, shiftermame also contains mame so you only need to run shiftermame. MAMEWAH has great support IMO as well. The guys were more than willing to help me set mine up.