the state of mame

[ark_ader]

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[Vigo]

At the risk of getting dragged into the argument...

As Haze says, people are free to modify the MAME code as they see fit.  Just because someone wants MAME to fit their needs, does not mean it would meet the needs of the people doing the actual coding.  Demanding it meets your needs and not the needs of the coders is bizzare.  So to get back to Haze's original topic... If you want it done, recruit someone with interest to code something up cleanly that can be maintained in the baseline code.  No current Devs have any interest, and continually berating them is not getting you anywhere.

Read this thread, for my thoughts on adding shifter controls:
http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=news&Number=232699&Forum=news&Words=IPT_GEARSHIFT&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=231686&Search=true#Post232699

Or for further fun on where insults and ranting get you:
http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=231686&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1
http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=234593&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

Unfortunately for some, I no longer have any interest in coding something I will never use.  Too much abuse, no pleasure.

People have to remember, MAMEdev are not going to maintain per games hacks, beyond the plenty that are already there that we are slowly working to remove.  So a maintainable system needs to be developed.  I believe a fake/real control system could be added similar to the system I mentioned for shifters.  But someone needs to be interested to do it.  I will repeat that NO CURRENT MAMEdev has any interest.  So let's see some good clean code from interested people.  (Yes that means learning the MAME UI, Input, Input Port and driver code.  As a hint, the easiest way would be to create a callback system in the input code, similar to the Input Port code.)

D.

Hi Derrick,

Going back to the original post on this thread, it sounds like MameDEV is pretty much a bare bones group these days according to Haze, and you need new blood to survive.

Would it be fair to sum up your thoughts as: "We don't have the resources to explore these avenues right now, we are simply focusing on we feel is most important right now. We would be happy to integrate this and other project ideas, and if we get the right interested individuals to join and work on this, we would be happy have this integrated into MAME."

The reason I ask is that you sound pretty open to the idea of further exploration into certain project changes, but you just don't see it getting done with the way things are right now. Previously in this thread, I was getting a strong vibe that no major changes were welcome, which is why I believe the hornet's nest got so stirred. I'm trying to bring some piece to this thread, mostly because the whole thing is irritating me a lot.

This whole thread could have been a softball pitch to do some recruiting to join the MameDEV team, it sucks to see that it probably only chased some potiental developers away.

[Derrick Renaud]

Would it be fair to sum up your thoughts as: "We don't have the resources to explore these avenues right now, we are simply focusing on we feel is most important right now. We would be happy to integrate this and other project ideas, and if we get the right interested individuals to join and work on this, we would be happy have this integrated into MAME."

That is pretty much what has always been said.  MAMEdev coders work on what they want, when they want to.  It is a hobby, not a company.  We are lucky that it is as structured as it is.

If interested individuals can understand the meaning/purpose of this post and can write code that meets the core coding standards, then it would be seriously looked at.
http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=news&Number=232699&Forum=news&Words=IPT_GEARSHIFT&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=231686&Search=true#Post232699

Unfortunately most people just want to get their favorite game to work.  Eg hook up 720 as 2 relative/mouse inputs, which would make it unplayable by 99.99% of Devs/users.  That is not acceptable.  Heck, we already get complaints about Hard Drivin's shifter which is implemented properly as a joystick.  Making shifting unplayable for 99.99% of users.  In that case though, the dev's can still test properly, but don't care how easy it is to shift while playing the game.  Well, actually, it is not that we don't care, it is that we have no interest/time to code something like I suggest in the link above.

[jennifer]

                Finding a safer, easier way to dump the board would have to the jumping off point. Speaking for myself [and other OEM collectors]
  send it to who?... and MAYBE get it back, working?.... Unacceptable.

[Haze]

Don't be hysterical, this is not MAME forum, so it is logical absurd to suggest anything I say here is even directed at MAME. No demands, I did it myself already. Now, why in the world would I keep these changes to myself while MAME needs fixing and is looking for developers in the same time, what sense does that make?

Nobody is saying keep the changes to yourself.

What's being said, by myself, and now Derrek is that simply leaving it in a state where the project developers can't use it / test it / maintain it isn't acceptable.

If you've made the changes, create yourself a website, put the source, and a build that runs 720 up, document however you're meant to wire the thing up to a PC in the first place (which certainly has nothing to do with the way it would wire up to a PCB), and be done with it.

Let's face it.  If somebody has a 720 controller on their cabinet and needs a MAME build to suit it then they're not going to be playing much else with it anyway, nor are they likely to need to upgrade / change it, ever.  It's very much the definition of where you'd need a single specialist build for a single specialist purpose.

The project developers on the other hand need something easy and accessible all the time.

My original post was more about the development of drivers, emulation of hardware and such, which is an area that certainly needs work if some hardware is to be emulated properly at all.  This is an area which people, with the required reverse engineering skills can easily contribute too without having a huge impact on the rest of the project.  It's incremental work, and on most hardware you can learn as you go, and improve the code as you understand things.

It's descended into people talking about major subsystem rewrites which is really of less interest to me.  There are also not many devs working on such an area, but it's also an area which has a huge impact across the entire project, so everybody else contributing has to be happy with the changes, and they have to be of a very high standard from day 1 _OR_ it needs to be developed outside the main tree, over a period of time and become proven established code before it's merged in, especially if it's coming from outside the project.

My personal view is that rewriting sub-systems might make MAME more appealing to certain groups (and could also annoy other immensely) but ultimately it isn't documenting anything new, or vital.  It's not revealing important test cases that we need to run on PCBs while they still work, or helping to improve the actual _emulation_ of anything.  MAME is an emulator and my concern was that very little progress was being seen in that core area, the rest (including the UI and input subsystem) is coating, important, but capable of supporting development, and not in need of critical change which could destabilize the project and get in the way of development.

Since the post (maybe because it's been the Christmas period) there have actually been quite a lot of very good and worthwhile contributions from some of the older devs, which was good to see.  Still no real fresh blood, but at least a couple of problems were solved and the emulation of a number of titles visibly improved.

At this point you've got views from Me, Derrek, and by proxy of another poster, Aaron.
That's the former lead co-ordinator, a guy who has done a lot of work on the input system recently, and the current lead co-ordinator.
If you still think you're being lied to about things then I don't know what to say, you're beyond help?

[abaraba]

Interesting ... I just had a look at the plans for the 720 controller to see if there was a reason for this particular change and couldn't see a reason why it wouldn't be handled as a spinner.

So, do I understand that it can be handled via "-mouse", so that any of the optical interfaces should work and no changes to MAME are required ?

I tried about dozen binaries from mame60 to mame131 and mouse would be automatically mapped to controls if mouse was enabled, which I believe directly means authentic controller can be used, and so that this functionality was there all along, no changes required. -- Yes, this is completely absurd considering there is 8 years worth of threads on this forum with people arguing about it, so I am too kind of waiting someone will explain what in the world is going on.


Objection still stands that *as a historical document* MAME should be clear actual 720 PCB used spinner.

If newer versions work with a mouse, what doesn't work with a real controller?

I have no idea.

Btw, I too think we should get off this thread with 720 stuff.

[CheffoJeffo]

Objection still stands that *as a historical document* MAME should be clear actual 720 PCB used spinner.

Except that somebody with an actual 720 controller has already explained the difference and lent his judgement ... it LOOKS like a spinner based on the optical inputs, but the direction of the stick matters (and is handled by the second encoder wheel).

What say you to that ?

[abaraba]

Except that somebody with an actual 720 controller has already explained the difference and lent his judgement ... it LOOKS like a spinner based on the optical inputs, but the direction of the stick matters (and is handled by the second encoder wheel).

What say you to that ?

His judgment is about playability for average PC user, I'm talking about accurate documentation. -- I'm not sure what is your point, main encoder input is mapped to Mouse X, calibration encoder is mapped to Mouse Y, and it all works. I am not saying you can play it properly with mouse this way, you can't, but you can TEST it as if you had original controller.


I say accurate documentation, and I actually really mean it.
I say playing it on a PC is side-effect, and I actually really mean it. That's the difference.

[CheffoJeffo]

Except that somebody with an actual 720 controller has already explained the difference and lent his judgement ... it LOOKS like a spinner based on the optical inputs, but the direction of the stick matters (and is handled by the second encoder wheel).

What say you to that ?

His judgment is about playability for average PC user, I'm talking about accurate documentation. -- I'm not sure what is your point, main encoder input is mapped to Mouse X, calibration encoder is mapped to Mouse Y, and it all works. I am not saying you can play it properly with mouse this way, you can't, but you can TEST it as if you had original controller.

Problem is that there is no way to tie X and Y together  (as they have to be) with a mouse so that you can even TEST it reasonably, UNLESS you have an original controller.

Or, if there is, then please enlighten me (as others here already have).

[ark_ader]

.

[ark_ader]

.

[abaraba]

Except that somebody with an actual 720 controller has already explained the difference and lent his judgement ... it LOOKS like a spinner based on the optical inputs, but the direction of the stick matters (and is handled by the second encoder wheel).

What say you to that ?

His judgment is about playability for average PC user, I'm talking about accurate documentation. -- I'm not sure what is your point, main encoder input is mapped to Mouse X, calibration encoder is mapped to Mouse Y, and it all works. I am not saying you can play it properly with mouse this way, you can't, but you can TEST it as if you had original controller.

Problem is that there is no way to tie X and Y together  (as they have to be) with a mouse so that you can even TEST it reasonably, UNLESS you have an original controller.

Or, if there is, then please enlighten me (as others here already have).

Move X axis - character rotates, it works.

Move Y axis - if first time after game starts it sets character to face North, and any other time it rotates (corrects) character towards facing North by one notch, it works. (In ideal circumstances this input is unnecessary, I think it's only when people start playing rough with the cabinet encoder might skip a notch, but otherwise calibrating only at the start of the game would most likely be sufficient.)



Hold on, I'll start a new thread about 720 controller when I finish replaying here, or you go on and do it if you want.

[Paul Olson]

From the controller code before the switch to analog input, it looks like both encoders were hooked up to the same input, and the direction of the character is kept by the second encoder. You really do need a real controller to test that I think. A normal mouse wouldn't let you play the game as it was intended to be played, so the analog solution really is the only way most developers could playtest the game for emulation bugs. I am going to try to find a controller. I don't remember liking the game too much, but I am a sucker for unique controls.

[Xiaou2]

In 720,  The 2nd encoder disc is used to re-calibrate the onscreen character.

  A spinner has no start and stop points.  But a 720 spinner has a stick that points in certain directions...

 If the stick was pointing down when you started the game up, but the character on screen was pointing Upwards... the control wouldnt be accurate to the user.

 To solve this, they use a 2nd disc to see where the Up position of the stick would be... or at least, can tell by how many ticks it takes to get to that calibration spot,
and figure everything out from that.

 Also, if for example, some of the notches on the main discs were clogged with dirt, the stick would eventually get messed up calibration in relation to the screen.  The calibration disc continually solves any such issue.

 Why didnt the game use an Analog stick?  Because Pots dont last very long under so much continual motion and stress.  They also provide a lot of extra frictional resistance... AND, it would take 2 pots re mames way... which means twice the failure potential...

 Also, with an analog stick, the movement is not smooth or fast, and uses too wide an angle for rapid spins.  Remember also, a 720 stick has a center pivot point, where as an analog has the pivot at the very bottom.  The center pivot makes it easier and faster to spin... which is needed to do the more complicated tricks. (IE: you can spin like 5x as many times before you hit the ground)

 While the Analog hack is a decent alternate (I believe it was MY idea originally),
it should not act as a replacement.  And its Not anywhere near close to the real deal.

 Its obvious, that here is One of MANY places where true Preservation is being disgraced... and why mame has to be taken over by Professionals who actually believe in Real preservation... not just like working on interesting Puzzles.


Substituting Hotdog for Beef in Beef stew is no longer Beef Stew.  

 Just because you are fine with Hotdog stew, does not make it right or accurate.  That is not how the recipe was designed to taste.  Regardless of how much Easier it was to make it, and the lack of available beef in certain locations.

 Anyone who has tasted real beef stew, and have good taste-buds (sensative palette), will immediatly be displeased.  As would it be an Insult to the person who made that recipe, to even call it preserved like that.

 As said, theres no good reason why both methods of imputs cant work.  Its merely a lack of care and value on the code monkeys part... which is rightly contested by people who Do understand the value of the original creations as they were meant to be experienced.

 What if we took the argument to other formats?

 Well, I encoded the Movie in Mono, because I only have hearing in one ear, and I
dont care about the rest of you who Do have 2 ears.. nor do I care about representing the Surround sound accurately as was designed. It sounds just fine to me and my one eared pals... and pals who dont give two rats tails about the film.
Ohh, and its way too hard to add a switch.  It might take away from my time writing 500 lines of BS on FilmPres.com. If you want to hear more, do it yourself.  (even though you helped buy the rare film from a collector)
 

[abaraba]

Unfortunately most people just want to get their favorite game to work.  Eg hook up 720 as 2 relative/mouse inputs, which would make it unplayable by 99.99% of Devs/users.  That is not acceptable.

One of them is a hack, the other is authentic functionality.
One of them is meant so people can play, the other is historical fact.

Whichever tickles your fanny, just don't say how playing the games is only a side-effect.

But you are wrong, it would not make it unplayable, one *option* does not exclude the other. Have you ever used MAME? Mapping different input devices to control panel layout is already generic and fully functional, i.e. it automatically works for all the games without any changes required, what so ever.


So, you too think emulation/preservation of a PCB is complete/accurate even without reference to authentic controls?



=====
BTW, there is new thread now to talk about 720 degrees controls, where the main goal I hope would actually be to establish what "accurate preservation" means or should mean, and how to actually read MAME as historical document or technical reference, i.e. you want to repair actual 720 degree PCB, but can't make it work with analog stick.

[SammyWI]

In 720,  The 2nd encoder disc is used to re-calibrate the onscreen character.

.....
 

Ow.  Reading drek like that makes my head hurt.  Even if there is a point in there, it's too hard to find under all the self entitlement and arrogance.  At least with that post I can see why people call you names.  You've  earned it.

[Hoopz]

Unfortunately most people just want to get their favorite game to work.  Eg hook up 720 as 2 relative/mouse inputs, which would make it unplayable by 99.99% of Devs/users.  That is not acceptable.

One of them is a hack, the other is authentic functionality.
One of them is meant so people can play, the other is historical fact.

Whichever tickles your fanny, just don't say how playing the games is only a side-effect.

But you are wrong, it would not make it unplayable, one *option* does not exclude the other. Have you ever used MAME? Mapping different input devices to control panel layout is already generic and fully functional, i.e. it automatically works for all the games without any changes required, what so ever.


So, you too think emulation/preservation of a PCB is complete/accurate even without reference to authentic controls?



=====
BTW, there is new thread now to talk about 720 degrees controls, where the main goal I hope would actually be to establish what "accurate preservation" means or should mean, and how to actually read MAME as historical document or technical reference, i.e. you want to repair actual 720 degree PCB, but can't make it work with analog stick.

Did you really just ask Derrick if he has ever played Mame? 

You really dont have much background in this hobby, do you?

[Donkbaca]

Mmmmm.... Hotdog stew!!!

[abaraba]

If you still think you're being lied to about things then I don't know what to say, you're beyond help?

I think you are misinterpreting some arbitrary unspoken rules and unnecessary turning them into dogma, instead of to listen users feedback and reconsider.

 

What's being said, by myself, and now Derrek is that simply leaving it in a state where the project developers can't use it / test it / maintain it isn't acceptable.

I'm having hard time believing you two are programmers at all.

I said it's a spinner, you can test it with a MOUSE!

Nobody is saying keep the changes to yourself.

If you've made the changes, create yourself a website, put the source, and a build that runs 720 up, document however you're meant to wire the thing up to a PC in the first place (which certainly has nothing to do with the way it would wire up to a PCB), and be done with it.

So, you are not looking for developers, or is everyone supposed to do the same if they want to contribute? I want to submit changes to mainstream MAME, of course, and I ask you again - do you mind?

Let's face it.  If somebody has a 720 controller on their cabinet and needs a MAME build to suit it then they're not going to be playing much else with it anyway, nor are they likely to need to upgrade / change it, ever. It's very much the definition of where you'd need a single specialist build for a single specialist purpose.

Nonsense! It's a spinner, just like trackball is actually only a mouse from the source code perspective. But, don't you worry, it's all already in MAME from long time ago, all is working and everything is fine.

"REDEFINE INPUT" is at least old feature as computer games, and I have no idea how it can even occur to you a program would require special build to support multiple input devices, or why would they conflict with each other. Nothing even matters if multiple devices get mapped to one input in the same time and you play with all of them.



====
Xiaou, please make it clear in what version did 720 controller stop working for you and what version do you want to use it with? ...becasue as far as I see it actually works and it never stopped working. Maybe it's hardware problem with your setup, all these years?

[Haze]

Whichever tickles your fanny, just don't say how playing the games is only a side-effect.

playing the games IS only a side-effect.

being able to test them with normal PC hardware without jumping through hoops is hands-down essential.  That means making it easy to use.  (and no, a mouse isn't easy the change you hate so much was almost certainly made because a mouse was too hard to use)

Redefine input, yeah, it's been a feature in software for a while (not always, declining today) and MAME still offers a LOT more flexibility than any other piece of software with that functionality, but you still moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan.

Go try hooking your 720 controller up to the c64 port, I'm sure it has a redefine keys feature for you.

It's a special use case, how you can claim it's anything else is laughable.  Now you're claiming maybe it did work on some versions, but people said it didn't even then.  Kinda proves there isn't even a proper way to hook the damn thing up to a PC and at that point you're getting even less and less to do with anything emulation related.  You may as well start saying MAME should just require all the components of the PCB to be plugged on to a custom built board slotted directly into a PCI slot to be authentic.

Do I mind you making the project harder for developers to use, and have a detrimental effect on normal MAME use?  Yes, I will ask for any such changes to be rejected.  Period.

Do I mind if you undertake rewriting the entire subsystem, testing it in your own build for a good few months, including extensive public testing, and integrating it at the point where it's determined it will have no detrimental effect to NORMAL use of MAME, and everything you've done is presented in a nice new fully flexible system capable of recognizing and supporting every special case controller under the sun, but which has the current input methods as a default then maintain said system, and deal with bug reports for all the hundreds of wacky controllers you don't have?.  No.

Do I expect you to do the latter? No, because you're just somebody else who wants wants wants and moans moans moans, but isn't willing to actually put in the proper effort, but instead would rather just make cheap changes that put everybody other than your special use case at a disadvantage.  I also doubt you'll bother with the responsibility of maintaining it even if you did code it just based on how absolutely your attitude stinks.  The main version of MAME caters primarily for the developers, and primary userbase, not you.  Your attitude is the complete opposite of every good developer I've ever worked with.

You STILL don't get it, despite being told this by every relevant member of the team.

[abaraba]

Go try hooking your 720 controller up to the c64 port

You mean parallel port? Yes, that's my next change - to take quadrature encoding directly from arcade trackballs and spinners to serial or parallel port and then just directly forward it further to ROMs code without any adapters and signal conversion in between.

It's a special use case, how you can claim it's anything else is laughable.

Third time. Just like arcade trackballs and spinners 720 controller is made of nothing else but optical encoders outputing 'quadrature encoding' signal you convert to PC mouse signal via 'mouse hack' or some of the KeyWiz or OptiPac adapters. Ok? -- So again, from the source code point of view it is same for you whether is Missile Command or 720 Degrees, you TEST authentic functionality with PC mouse and then you go PLAY for the high-score record with whatever controller suits you best.  

Now you're claiming maybe it did work on some versions, but people said it didn't even then.  Kinda proves there isn't even a proper way to hook the damn thing up to a PC and at that point you're getting even less and less to do with anything emulation related.

How about PC mouse interface, just like with all the other spinner games?

You may as well start saying MAME should just require all the components of the PCB to be plugged on to a custom built board slotted directly into a PCI slot to be authentic.

Close, only we do not need "custom" boards when we have serial and parallel ports, we can plug whatever arcade controls directly there and feed their authentic signal directly into virtual PCB port.

Do I mind you making the project harder for developers to use, and have a detrimental effect on normal MAME use?  Yes, I will ask for any such changes to be rejected.  Period.

You funny human quasi-developer, "changes" you say would be detrimental are long time features of MAME, such as ability of assigning input to many different, even if very incompatible, types of input devices, such as possibility of controlling 'Star Wars' with mouse, keys or with actual SW flight stick. -- First you proudly celebrated this as great flexibility, and now you "reject" it, even though it's all already there, huh?!

[Derrick Renaud]

I'm having hard time believing you two are programmers at all.

WOW!  This is why it is pointless to even hold a discussion with you.  Please return the MAME software for a full refund.

You seem to skip the facts to keep things fitting in your view of the world.  You have been told our reasons.  You have been told this is the way we like it.  You have been told you are free to code something.  You have been given guidelines how.  You have been told no MAMEdev has any interest in coding it for you, mainly due to demanding attitudes.  Why MUST we code it for you in our free time?

Lets start a rant that you can not directly hook up a Seawolf periscope.

Have fun ranting.  I'm done with pointless discussions.  I will chime back in when someone who can do quality core code wants to work on it.
 

[abaraba]

You have been told our reasons.  

And I explained your reasons are self-refuting since all that is already in MAME. Try it, it's free.

You have been told no MAMEdev has any interest in coding it for you, mainly due to demanding attitudes.  Why MUST we code it for you in our free time?

I do all the coding myself, and I want to contribute it to mainstream MAME. Do you mind?

Have fun ranting.  I'm done with pointless discussions. I will chime back in when someone who can do quality core code wants to work on it.

Tuck your tail and run.

Though, you can now come back, as I am the one who can do quality core code. What can I do for you?

[DillonFoulds]

I think the original blog post by Haze kind of points out that coders/programmers with the following attitude...

I do all the coding myself, and I want to contribute it to mainstream MAME. Do you mind?
...
Though, you can now come back, as I am the one who can do quality core code. What can I do for you?

...is the kind that's detracting from the general advancements by the MAME team, if I'm not mistaken. So wouldn't you be the exact opposite of what they'd want on the team? If you're an able coder, then just join up, do your part, and leave. If you don't like it, don't bother.

[(+_+)]

So when are we going to see the Seawolf periscope?   

[Derrick Renaud]

Though, you can now come back, as I am the one who can do quality core code. What can I do for you?

Make a system that is handled by the Core UI; Input; Input Port code that can select between real and fake controls.  Then change the Input port code in the drivers to use it.  The UI would allow you to select the real control or a fake control that would call a driver function to modify the data.

It would be easier to start with the Shifter port code changes I mentioned in an earlier post.  This would give you an idea of how the MAME interfaces that would need changing work.

[Xiaou2]

abaraba,

 If you really can do core changes...

 Its either a quick fix "switch" which enables / disables real controls 
IE:  arcadecontrols = on/off

 Or the better solution would be to Enforce the "Controller Mapping".

 On Mame32, theres a controller mapping section which can assign whatever device you have to what kind of controller you want it used on. (does not seem to be enforced) 

 For example, you can choose to assign your Joystick to "Paddle", so that any game in mame that uses "Paddle", will use your joystick.

 However, the Mapping isnt enforced.  And so you still will see odd mappings on games, as well as be able to re-map other controller in those games.  Basically, mapping seems to be ignored?

 If you fire up a game of Kick, it should only show Dial if you have selected the mouse as your mapping.   It should not show Auto-Center, or any other feature unrelated to spinner input.   If you select Analog-Joystick for the mapping, it could then Hack the controls, and display all relavent analog controls and adjustments needed for them in the games menu system.

 This of course may be a much larger undertaking, but that would clear up so many issues with confusion of what the game originally controlled with... and ease of changing that, if needed.  Hitting Tab to see the controls in certain games is a virtual nightmare of options, that shouldnt even exist.

[Derrick Renaud]

Its either a quick fix "switch" which enables / disables real controls 
IE:  arcadecontrols = on/off

Switch in official release. NO. Please read the multiple times in this thread that that has already been stated.

Switch in other release.  Go for it.

[Xiaou2]

In 720,  The 2nd encoder disc is used to re-calibrate the onscreen character.
.....
Ow.  Reading drek like that makes my head hurt.  Even if there is a point in there, it's too hard to find under all the self entitlement and arrogance.  At least with that post I can see why people call you names.  You've  earned it.

 Sammy,

 This has Nothing to do with me feeling Entitled, nor Arrogance.

 It has to do with my passion and belief in Preserving things as they Should be preserved.  You cant preserve the mona lisa with Finger Paints, and if someone did that, there would be Tons of angered people who felt it unjust.

 Just because these painters do the work that nobody else is doing, does not mean they are right and correct about it.  And generations in the future, when things are outright missing, confusing, and unknown... they would take a good deal of the blame for it.

 IMOP, there is a certain level of Responsibility that should be upheld here.  This isnt like making a GoCart for yourself.  This is the recreation of historical machines. And as such, accuracy is very important.  These creations dont belong to ANY of the Devs.  Just as the Mono Lisa does not belong to the Finger Painter Restoration crew.

 Go to any Museum and see the mass efforts to restore things to their ORIGINAL ways.  You will find people with highly skilled people who LIKE and Desire to make things Correct... and they have highly qualified skills to do so.

 IMOP, preserving these games should either be a museum or  Govt. / Continental  sponsored thing.  Where much more money, time, and energy can be funneled into it.  Where stupid rules about Partial Simulations are not going to destroy rediscovery & enjoyment from "Baby Pacman"... or an Old Electromechanical game.

-
 
 As for the quote about 720, Im sorry that you did not understand it.  I can re-write it in a way that you could... but it was aimed at the people who Do understand it.  Meaning, it wasnt actually complex, just that you have to be familiarized with arcade parts to understand it.

A) Encoder wheel = a disc with holes or notches which is read with an Optical Sensor (Infarred Light beam). Most commonly used with spinners & trackballs to detect movement. In the most basic sense, the notches represent on/off... but, it is able to tell which direction the thing is traveling... so its a little more complicated than just 0 or 1.

B) 720 uses 2 encoders.  One for pointing the Skater in a certain direction. (I believe it has 72 notches)  The other encoder has only 1 or 2 notches.  Its used for telling the game that the Stick that the player uses is directly facing North... and that if the Skater is NOT facing North on screen at that time... the computer will re-adjust, and make him face north to match the Controllers stick angle.

[Derrick Renaud]

Just out of curiosity, who ACTUALLY HONESTLY plans on hooking up a real 720 control?

[Donkbaca]

Honesty has no place in hypothetical discussions

[Hoopz]

I love X's analogies.  They're worth preserving by themselves.  They make little sense, to any sane and cogent person, but they're priceless nonetheless.

[Paul Olson]

Just out of curiosity, who ACTUALLY HONESTLY plans on hooking up a real 720 control?

If I can find one I will, but it is just to test the controller code. I don't think I would actually play the game very often. I have a modular control panel on my MAME cab, so it would just be another panel to hook up. I am more interested in finding out what other controls don't work correctly, but since my cabinet is built for it, it kinda makes sense that I should have all of the unique controllers to test. There is a repro 720 controller being built, so that may increase the number of people wanting to use one in the future. From what I have seen over the years, there are actually very few people who actually build a modular or swappable panel, which is really the only market for this.

I think it would be great to have the option to use real controls, so I am really interested in the project. I don't have a problem with it being a diff. If it is maintained and updated for long enough, it may or may not get added to the core someday, but it doesn't matter in the end, as long as it is available. Minwah had a driver version of MAME for a while to address the various problems with using actual controls for racing games. I think it was mostly sensitivity settings. this would have been just as good as a diff, I think, and it might have stayed more up to date. There is a real problem of varying opinion unless every game is optimized to use the exact controller from each game. different encoder wheels and gears even make common dial controls fairly unique if we are shooting for accuracy. Even with just the trackpad on my laptop, there is a huge difference in the current 720 behavior, and in the version that I reverted back to the pre analog version. It is just sensitivity settings, but the it is a huge difference. I am still not sure how it will behave with a real controller though. without the sensitivity set (to 30, I think), it is just too easy to fall over because it is attempting to spin too fast.

I haven't heard anyone else say they actually want to help code the project, so I am not sure if this will really take off. I will keep trying to learn the way things are done, but with work, and school starting up again next week, it will probably be a slow process. Now that I have actually started looking around in the code, I am very interested.

[CheffoJeffo]

I love X's analogies.  They're worth preserving by themselves.  They make little sense, to any sane and cogent person, but they're priceless nonetheless.

I love that he still writes "IMOP".

 

[CheffoJeffo]

IMOP, preserving these games should either be a museum or  Govt. / Continental  sponsored thing.  Where much more money, time, and energy can be funneled into it.  Where stupid rules about Partial Simulations are not going to destroy rediscovery & enjoyment from "Baby Pacman"... or an Old Electromechanical game.

You know that you live in a city where there is a museum that is doing that, right ? 

Did you really just suggest that MAME support EM games ? 

[piecesof8]

Did you really just suggest that MAME support EM games ? 

Should be simple enough to add this support to MAME by coding in a few switches (and relays).

[RandyT]

This has Nothing to do with me feeling Entitled, nor Arrogance.

 It has to do with my passion and belief in Preserving things as they Should be preserved.  You cant preserve the mona lisa with Finger Paints, and if someone did that, there would be Tons of angered people who felt it unjust.

 Just because these painters do the work that nobody else is doing, does not mean they are right and correct about it.  And generations in the future, when things are outright missing, confusing, and unknown... they would take a good deal of the blame for it.

Very possibly the worst analogy ever.  There is one Mona Lisa.  Doing what you describe would permanently destroy it.  The MAME Team does no such thing.  They are preserving the parts they feel the most strongly about.  This in no possible way detracts from your ability to preserve the parts you feel most strongly about, even using their project as a starting point.

If you are going to try to defend your attitude toward those who have given more than you could ever imagine, you might want to try a more reasonable analogy.

[Xiaou2]

Just out of curiosity, who ACTUALLY HONESTLY plans on hooking up a real 720 control?

 People that Like that game.   I know at least 2 people locally who I bet would (huge fans of the game) ...and I would too, so that makes a possible 3, in a single city.. let alone the others who may in the future.
 
 (one of my buddies sold his 720, due to needing more money for his pinball machines... which are climbing in value, getting harder and harder to afford)

 720, like many other Atari games, is a classically known game.  It was in the arcades most everywhere.   There are bound to be a Lot of fans out there for it... as well as people who are new to the game, but want to try and experience it as it Should be played.

 720 is of course much less popular than something like Pole Position, or Spy Hunter, and neither of those games have shifter support.  Plenty of cabinet builders / game fans  have been discouraged because of this very fact.   While PP is still playable to a certain degree due to its lazy pace... Spy Hunter is nearly impossible to play without a real shifter because of its extreme AI and intensity. You also lose the feel of the game without the real controller.

 An Argument was also made about Sinistar some time back.  Who will use a real 49 Way controller?  Guess what?  Many people have / Do.  However, to make mame accept it, the hardware guys had to create a special encoder to change the signals to adapt to mames hackery to do so.

 And what about 12 or 24 position rotary controllers?  Cant hook them up either...
unless you use another hardware based hack... which doesnt even work very well.
 
 And Finally, its not the Amount of people that use a real / special controller.  Its the fact that its the right thing to do.  The game is supposed to be experienced a certain way.. and that should always be supported and documented correctly.  If 720 playing with a real controller isnt for you... thats fine... then it doesnt matter to you... so why play it?  But it Does matter for those who Do like/love it... and those people should weight much more than those who care less.  Thats even besides the basic and more important preservation argument.

[Mikezilla]

The random capital lettres drive me nuts, I cant even read any more of this tripe. 

[ark_ader]

.