the state of mame

[abaraba]

correct, controls are external.  The way external things interact with the PCB emulation is not part of the project goal.

Handling input is essential and very much internal part of any game's functionality. Monitor is not part of PCB, so it is fake scan-lines, stretching, blurring and filtering that is EXTERNAL (unnecessary).

There is nothing conflicting about these statements.  Playing the games is a side-effect of correct emulation.  To obtain correct emulation it is necessary to have people using MAME.  It's a CYCLE.

"Playing the games" is the same thing as "people using MAME" in the next sentence. It can either be necessity or side-effect, not both, one excludes the other. It is either intentional or coincidental, conflict is in relation to potential legal liability.

You've clearly not played many games, pretty much every PS3 game, and an awful lot of 360 games have severe tearing.  You might not like it, but it's a fact.
GT5 for example has it almost all the time.
http://uk.gamespot.com/ps3/driving/granturismo52/show_msgs.php?topic_id=m-1-57294186&pid=941103

Other people in that thread, and I, dispute there is any tearing. Simple sync to monitor refresh solves all the tearing problems, so the guy reporting it was possibly having some issues due to video conversion or NTSC/PAL settings, or was simply referring to some other visual artifact as "tearing". -- One of us is not telling the truth, I mean you.

[abaraba]

The input layer maps inputs in a way deemed suitable by the developers

The input layer is designed to provide a suitable mapping for the common input devices

Says who? Says where? -- I say, in the name of logic, if you can not substitute dead PCB in the original arcade cabinet with MAME machine, then that PCB/game is simply not properly preserved/emulated, yet.


Now, we can substitute many PCBs in many cabinets as it is, but as I understand you could not do it with '720 Degrees' cabinet, and the most important thing you are missing here is - it used to be able to be controlled with an arcade CORRECT controller. Just like with Yie Ar Kung-Fu some baby wanna be developer came along and 'fixed what was not broken'.
 
Do you not hear people are using old MAME? If MAME developers indeed share your views than that explains it all, you guys got very confused with your priorities and off the original tracks, thus you need to be set straight, in the name of preservation, before you have ruined it all.

[CheffoJeffo]

 

Please don't use those of us who use an older build as evidence for your tirade ... I expect that the others, like me, recognize that MAME is fluid and that every release changes things, not always in the direction of playability. So, we choose to use versions that work for us rather than whine about how somebody else's priorities are out of line.

If you want to play 720 with an original controller (sad that Xiaou never mentioned the interface method, which would be totally relevant here), then just use an old version. Same with your precious Yie Ar Kung-Fu. It ain't rocket science and is exactly why I use an older build.

If I were a MAMEDev and you told me that my priorities were out of line and that I needed to be set straight before I ruined it all, I would tell you to stick your Yie Ar Kung-Fu correction up your ass ... or ask your friend Xiaou2 to give you a death punch, whichever was more convenient.

[Paul Olson]

The input layer maps inputs in a way deemed suitable by the developers

The input layer is designed to provide a suitable mapping for the common input devices

Says who? Says where? -- I say, in the name of logic, if you can not substitute dead PCB in the original arcade cabinet with MAME machine, then that PCB/game is simply not properly preserved/emulated, yet.


Now, we can substitute many PCBs in many cabinets as it is, but as I understand you could not do it with '720 Degrees' cabinet, and the most important thing you are missing here is - it used to be able to be controlled with an arcade CORRECT controller. Just like with Yie Ar Kung-Fu some baby wanna be developer came along and 'fixed what was not broken'.
 
Do you not hear people are using old MAME? If MAME developers indeed share your views than that explains it all, you guys got very confused with your priorities and off the original tracks, thus you need to be set straight, in the name of preservation, before you have ruined it all.

MAME has never been about replacing a PCB in a cabinet. It has never been about running in a MAME cabinet. If I remember right, from the beginning it was always meant to interface with a PC. The MAMEdevs don't have arcade games in their garages like we do. It is a software project to them. I have discussed this with a few of them over the years. What you want, and don't get me wrong I would like it as well, is not what the developers are doing because it is not the goal of the project. MAME is meant to enjoy the games on a PC. People outside the team have produced encoders to allow us to connect most controls to our cabs. There are very few games that don't work as they are. 720 is a pretty bad example of a controller that needs to work in MAME. There are only a handful of people that even have one outside of a dedicated cab (when the repros are released, this may change). When there is enough demand, someone will write a diff to give that functionality, and the handful of people can compile MAME with the diff and happily use their controller. It is not going to be in the core MAME distribution. Period. Although they certainly don't always agree, Aaron and Haze are on the same page on this issue. Aaron is in charge now, and you are not going to change his mind on this. It is not something that you can demand.

[abaraba]

MAME has never been about replacing a PCB in a cabinet. It has never been about running in a MAME cabinet. If I remember right, from the beginning it was always meant to interface with a PC.

Preserving a game PCB directly implies emulator machine should be adequate substitute for the real PCB and so compatible with the rest of its cabinet, just like restoring/re-making (preserving) an engine of some old car is a failure if at the end it does not fit with the rest of the car.

MAME is meant to enjoy the games on a PC.

That is supposed to be a side-effect.

It is not going to be in the core MAME distribution. Period.

I promise you it will be *back* in MAME, unless you can convince me why integral functionality of the game PCB should not be properly preserved? You think that would be some sort of hack, or is something not worth documenting?

Aaron is in charge now, and you are not going to change his mind on this. It is not something that you can demand.

Demand? It's a mutiny!
Still, Aaron would surely agree with me. Let's ask him?

[Malenko]

Preserving a game PCB directly implies emulator machine should be adequate substitute for the real PCB and so compatible with the rest of its cabinet, just like restoring/re-making (preserving) an engine of some old car is a failure if at the end it does not fit with the rest of the car.

They are not mutually inclusive. Preserving the game PCB means its documented how it works so it can be fixed/replaced/remade.  Think of MAME as a blue print for the engine, not the engine itself. Its been said many times and in many ways, the ability to play the games is just a great byproduct.

If you really want to use the engine example; say MAME is the engine and it fits and everything. But the controls are the ignition wires, yeah the engine works great but the engine builder doesnt have anything to do with making the ignition wires or spark plugs.Still such a terrible example.

[ark_ader]

.

[Xiaou2]

Let's examine this further.... What if someone designed some classic controllers, put a lot of money, time and effort into making them just perfect to be put on their cabinets where they fit perfectly, and overall made a classic setup only to find a horrendous website where some PUNK KID built some bastardized, gaudy, f'tard of a contraption that allowed for all of these specialty controllers to be built into wood, that supposedly spun around so the end use (the same punk kid, of course) could try and play these games?  How exactly would you feel?  Who's the dumbass now?

 Firstly, SAINT, Id like to say that its quite depressing that I have to deal with such language as ftard, and dumbass in the above quote (I also tire of seeing Asshat ).. yet the smallest hint of an insult without any foul language that got aimed at Haze by another member, was scolded.

 As a result, Im hugely tempted to blast back twice as bad at the poster(s).. if not take it to a physical level.  I should not be put in that position.

 While my viewpoints are harsh and strong at times, I try very hard not to be foul.
Most Foul replies from me usually come After several have been slung my way.
 

It's ALL perspective now, isn't it?

 As for your Pathetic example, its... well, its something only an 8 yr old would think made logical sense.

 Quite simply, if the Developers who created Starwars had their choice on coming over to play it on my fugly WillyWonka Prototype, or on a Beautiful clean-cut cabinet with NO starwars yoke... the choice would Obviously, that even though the pretty cab looks nice... their game will Not play correctly as they designed it to play... and so wont enjoy the experience at all.

 While the Proto was not pretty, it did exactly as it was designed to do.  To allow a person to experience these treasures of the past as Accurately as possible, using the Correct controllers.

 While sideart and cabinet shapes are cool additions... they are mostly decorative. Where as PCB, Controls, Force Feedback, and Speakers, are all ESSENTIALS for making the game operate as was designed.   Any deviations from this, and you are Not representing the game correctly... and will easily Piss off any Game Developers involved in those games.  Where as a simple cabinet shape isnt going to deter them at all. 

 In fact, most Devs would easily be proud and impressed that someone actually valued their creations to the point of reproducing controllers from scratch just to be able to play them right.  Where as people like Yourself (and Haze), who dont Value their creations as they made them, they wouldnt care one bit about your "pretty cab" and your Lacking "Preservation" efforts.

 

On the positive side, if it's as easy to code in your switch to make it work, find out the code from when it did work, code the switch in so it works now too, recompile and make it happen, cap'n!  If it is really as easy as coding the switch, then do it.  It ain't like your launching rockets or anything.  It's not finding the cosign of Pluto or whatever.  It's just a switch like you said.

 There is no reason the switch cant be plugged into mame in the first place... like every other switch it supports.  The Hackjob is BS, and so are the excuses.

 Just because you cant drive Nolan Bushnell's car with a manual shifter, does not mean you should have the right to Hack up HIS car to install manual transmission, And then after doing so, tell him and others that IF they want to use a manual shifter, you should RE-install it yourself.

 Simply Pathetic.

[Xiaou2]

I played 720 again after all these years for five minutes, well four minutes as it took 60 secs to locate the rom and delete it forever. It is the most moronic game Atari ever created next to Kangaroo.

 Well, here we have a perfect example.

 You played 720 with mame with WHAT Controller?  Ohh yeah, probably an analog joystick.  And then based on that poorly playing experience, you decided it was a trash.  But, How different would your opinion of the game be with a Real 720 controller?  You dont know.  Did you ever get good at the game in the arcade? Nope. You dont even remember it.

 Im not a huge fan of 720, but I HAVE played it with a real controller (Recently), and it was fun this way.  It was very difficult / challenging, and I had a real hard time making it far... But, my brother, and a collector I hang with, are Excellent at the game, and pull off amazing stunts and incredible precision under pressure. Its fun just watching them play it.

 Another prime example of improper controls making a Bad impression is Sinistar.
You simply Cant play this game without a 49 way stick or mechanically equivalent stick.  Its an Awesome game, but worthless without the real controller.  Just as much as Crystal Castles cant be played correctly with a D-Pad either.

 To Preserve these games, means to preserve how they play. How the games difficulty is balanced...etc.

 Its not hard to understand people like Haze, who dont understand good game design, and make games more like point and click movies rather than challenging experiences.  There hasnt been more than a handful of games worthy of buying in like the last +15 years... and its mostly developers like Haze who are to blame for it.

[Dexter]

Firstly, SAINT, Id like to say that its quite depressing that I have to deal with such language as ftard, and dumbass in the above quote (I also tire of seeing Asshat ).. yet the smallest hint of an insult without any foul language that got aimed at Haze by another member, was scolded.

I've always found the best way to avoid people calling me an ftard, dumbass and asshat is to not act like one.

But thats just me.

Nice to see you have as big a problem with how Saint moderates this board you enjoy as you do with how the devs develop their emulator you enjoy,

As a result, Im hugely tempted to blast back twice as bad at the poster(s).. if not take it to a physical level.

Physical level? You going to beat up your teddy bear and pretend its a BYOACER cupcake??



Oh, and quick word to Haze. On behalf of the vast majority of people around here who love MAME and appreciate your efforts, please keep up the hard work....as it REALLY seems to piss this guy off 

[Xiaou2]

is to not act like one.

 Well, you just did.

 Having a difference of Opinions is not grounds for verbal abuse.

[Hoopz]

Having a difference of Opinions is not grounds for verbal abuse.

Its not hard to understand people like Haze, who dont understand good game design...

and its mostly developers like Haze who are to blame for it.

[Hoopz]

Let's examine this further.... What if someone designed some classic controllers, put a lot of money, time and effort into making them just perfect to be put on their cabinets where they fit perfectly, and overall made a classic setup only to find a horrendous website where some PUNK KID built some bastardized, gaudy, f'tard of a contraption that allowed for all of these specialty controllers to be built into wood, that supposedly spun around so the end use (the same punk kid, of course) could try and play these games?  How exactly would you feel?  Who's the dumbass now?

 Firstly, SAINT, Id like to say that its quite depressing that I have to deal with such language as ftard, and dumbass in the above quote (I also tire of seeing Asshat ).. yet the smallest hint of an insult without any foul language that got aimed at Haze by another member, was scolded.

 As a result, Im hugely tempted to blast back twice as bad at the poster(s).. if not take it to a physical level.  I should not be put in that position.

 While my viewpoints are harsh and strong at times, I try very hard not to be foul.
Most Foul replies from me usually come After several have been slung my way.
 

It's ALL perspective now, isn't it?

 As for your Pathetic example, its... well, its something only an 8 yr old would think made logical sense.

 Quite simply, if the Developers who created Starwars had their choice on coming over to play it on my fugly WillyWonka Prototype, or on a Beautiful clean-cut cabinet with NO starwars yoke... the choice would Obviously, that even though the pretty cab looks nice... their game will Not play correctly as they designed it to play... and so wont enjoy the experience at all.

 While the Proto was not pretty, it did exactly as it was designed to do.  To allow a person to experience these treasures of the past as Accurately as possible, using the Correct controllers.

 While sideart and cabinet shapes are cool additions... they are mostly decorative. Where as PCB, Controls, Force Feedback, and Speakers, are all ESSENTIALS for making the game operate as was designed.   Any deviations from this, and you are Not representing the game correctly... and will easily Piss off any Game Developers involved in those games.  Where as a simple cabinet shape isnt going to deter them at all. 

 In fact, most Devs would easily be proud and impressed that someone actually valued their creations to the point of reproducing controllers from scratch just to be able to play them right.  Where as people like Yourself (and Haze), who dont Value their creations as they made them, they wouldnt care one bit about your "pretty cab" and your Lacking "Preservation" efforts.

 

On the positive side, if it's as easy to code in your switch to make it work, find out the code from when it did work, code the switch in so it works now too, recompile and make it happen, cap'n!  If it is really as easy as coding the switch, then do it.  It ain't like your launching rockets or anything.  It's not finding the cosign of Pluto or whatever.  It's just a switch like you said.

 There is no reason the switch cant be plugged into mame in the first place... like every other switch it supports.  The Hackjob is BS, and so are the excuses.

 Just because you cant drive Nolan Bushnell's car with a manual shifter, does not mean you should have the right to Hack up HIS car to install manual transmission, And then after doing so, tell him and others that IF they want to use a manual shifter, you should RE-install it yourself.

 Simply Pathetic.

So when you call someone a d-bag it's ok?  More of your logic? 

And don't threaten people asshat.

[Dexter]

I've always found the best way to avoid people calling me an ftard, dumbass and asshat is to not act like one.

Well, you just did.

Wow, what a thought provoking and intellectually charged reply. It shall stand in the annals of  intriguing powerhouse responses for all eternity  

And such a busy guy too with writing a better emulator than mame.

Did you take time off from working on how to one-inch-punch forum members down your internet connection to type that response??

[ark_ader]

.

[CheffoJeffo]

Simply Pathetic.

If ever there was a quote that BEGGED to be that person's custom title ....

 

[Xiaou2]

and with some kind words ask them to help in your endeavor.  Raising hell in this place is, not the most practical thing to do, and it puts our words in jeopardy.

 When a Dev gives you attitude from the start, asking them Nicely for something they dont even understand the value of, isnt going to change things much.  In fact, in the past, I have asked very nicely, and even pledged money and or custom built controllers.

 And, Im not "Raising Hell".  Im posting my genuine Opinions about the state of Preservation.  There is Nothing wrong with that.

 Nor does my Opinion put Anyone else opinions or the mame project in danger. Mame does what it wants to do, Period... even if that means hacking something to bits.

 In fact, more people should stand up to make their opinions known.  The Yie Ar Kungfu isnt the best example... but it was an example of enough opinions made known that changes were submitted.  Its just plain sad that it took so much effort to get such a small change instigated... in the interest of better preservation.

 Edit:

 Btw, thanks for the Nice reply.

[Xiaou2]

Its not hard to understand people like Haze, who dont understand good game design...

and its mostly developers like Haze who are to blame for it.

 These are Opinions.  And frankly, many people would agree with them.

 Abusive, is more about when you outright call a person names.  Though yes, you can be abusive without using such tactics.  I would not consider my quote to be abusive. They certainly are not peaches and cream, but they are not very toothy either.

So when you call someone a d-bag it's ok?  More of your logic?

And don't threaten people asshat.

 Did I?  No I did not. Re-Read.

 And as for physicality, It was meant that if people intend to use fighting words, then its easy to expect that if there is poor moderation of it, its very possible that a real fight may come to terms in some future date.

 Ill be the first to say that Im very good at keeping myself in check... but, that if someone gets in my face and starts hurling insults, I cant guarantee I would walk away. Nobody would... hence, nobody in their right mind, is gona flap their lips unless they are prepared for the possible consequences of their actions.

[Hoopz]

Whos the D-Bag in this scenario?

 

Maybe it doesn't count with you using capital letters all the time?  

EDIT: Typo

[saint]

Dudes, take it easy on my poor Percocet addled brain ...

Edit - seriously, I can't focus well enough to clean up this thread right now. Chill please?

[Hoopz]

Sorry Saint.  I'll stop and let it blow up without me.

How about a trade?  We'll play nice if you finally spill the beans on your gameroom!   

[Rick]

If threats of physical violence don't get Xiaou2 booted, I don't know what will.

[abaraba]

Xiaou2, let me know what was the last version where you could map input to authentic controller and what version you want it back in, also it would be helpful if you can track down what are the relevant files need changing. -- Were those spinner(s) originally mapped to mouse axes, and so are you converting quadrature encoding to PC mouse protocol, or whatever else is going on there - explain wiring/adapter between the joystick and PC please. Perhaps start a new thread.

[SammyWI]

"Post hell here we come...."

X2: Nobody is calling you any funny names.  
........

I'm going to have to disagree with that.  Several people have called Xiaou2 "Xiaou2" in this thread.  Pretty clearly calling him a ---meecrob---.  (The search function even suggests it.)  This happened well before this latest blow up and searching the term, it shows up in a couple of other threads, too.  Maybe I should have reported it, but I'd like to think that we can disagree like adults.

I can see the points of both sides of this thread.  But I don't think either side is going to be persuaded to the others view anytime soon.  Time to cool off indeed.  

Edit to add:  This post is the first time I've seen the naughty word filter in action.  I honestly thought that posters were using those terms themselves!  Learn something new every day.

[Grasshopper]

I've only skimmed part of the thread so I apologise if I'm repeating things that have already been said. But here goes anyway.

Haze, if I understand correctly, the underlying theme of your posts is that the mamedevs are struggling to get new recruits. That's not surprising. The problem with MAME, as with any large software project, is that the barrier to entry for new developers gets progressively higher over time. It's become a huge application that has been continually developed by a team of people over 13 years. Therefore any prospective new developer has 13 years of catching up to do. Obviously if the code is clean, properly structured, and well commented then that will help. But only up to a point.

If you want more coders to become part of the mamedev team then realistically you need to offer them an incentive to justify the considerable time and effort required to get up to speed. Allowing them to implement their favourite missing feature would perhaps provide such an incentive. However, asking them to implement yet another obscure variant of mahjong probably won't. If you dogmatically insist that MAME must be kept pure in some arbitrary way, and that nothing can be added to the program that doesn't involve "documenting the hardware" then they're probably going to walk away.

Of course I agree that it's unreasonable to expect you and the other mamedevs to work on areas of the program that don't interest you. It's your own spare time and you're under no obligation to do anything. But I also think the mamedevs are shooting themselves in the foot by applying arbitrary restrictions on what features can appear in the official build. If prospective developers are willing and able to give up their time to implement missing features then why not let them. Once a new developer has gone to the effort of understanding MAME in order to implement his favourite missing feature, he might then be willing to work on areas of the project that you consider more important. The more people who understand the inner workings of MAME the better.

And yes I realise that there's nothing to stop someone from creating their own separate fork of the project. But that's hardly ideal. Every time the official MAME build is updated, all the forked versions have to be updated as well. That leads to a massive and unnecessary duplication of effort.

The sad fact is that several excellent MAME forks have fallen by the wayside over the years. For example AdvanceMAME, which you described as a failure earlier in the thread. I disagree. IMHO it remains the best version of MAME to date and would still be my first choice if I was building a cab with a CRT monitor. I think it's a tragedy that the features of AdvanceMAME were not incorporated into the official build.

[Grasshopper]

"Post hell here we come...."

X2: Nobody is calling you any funny names. 
........

I'm going to have to disagree with that.  Several people have called Xiaou2 "Xiaou2" in this thread.  Pretty clearly calling him a ---meecrob---.  (The search function even suggests it.)  This happened well before this latest blow up and searching the term, it shows up in a couple of other threads, too.  Maybe I should have reported it, but I'd like to think that we can disagree like adults.

I can see the points of both sides of this thread.  But I don't think either side is going to be persuaded to the others view anytime soon.  Time to cool off indeed. 

I agree. I think some of the attacks on Xiaou2 in this thread have been uncalled for.

[Hoopz]

For example AdvanceMAME, which you described as a failure earlier in the thread. I disagree. IMHO it remains the best version of MAME to date and would still be my first choice if I was building a cab with a CRT monitor. I think it's a tragedy that the features of AdvanceMAME were not incorporated into the official build.

I think the difference is between the end users v. the programmers and that the two groups often don't have the same desired outcomes.

[Malenko]

I'm going to have to disagree with that.  Several people have called Xiaou2 "Xiaou2" in this thread.

Its a nickname, like calling a fat guy slim, but we aren't being ironic. I'll start calling him deathpuncher instead if you're ok with it.

I think the difference is between certain end users v. the programmers and that the two groups often don't have the same desired outcomes.

Best summary ever, but I had to edit it a tad, hope you don't mind.

[SammyWI]

I'm going to have to disagree with that.  Several people have called Xiaou2 "Xiaou2" in this thread.

Its a nickname, like calling a fat guy slim, but we aren't being ironic. I'll start calling him deathpuncher instead if you're ok with it.
....

It's childish name calling.  It is done to be deliberately insulting.  And no, I'm not OK with it. 

We can refer to each other with abbreviated names for ease of use without being insulting.  Xiaou2 is pretty hard to remember how to spell but X2 or X would get the point across with out the deliberate insult.

[Hoopz]

I think the difference is between certain end users v. the programmers and that the two groups often don't have the same desired outcomes.

Best summary ever, but I had to edit it a tad, hope you don't mind.

Works for me.  Actually, it's great addition.

[CheffoJeffo]

I'm going to have to disagree with that.  Several people have called Xiaou2 "Xiaou2" in this thread.

2 people is hardly the same as several. 

And, yep, I was deliberately insulting him, the same way that we have insulted each other for years now.

And, nope, I don't give a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- if it is OK with you or not.

 

[SammyWI]

Dudes, take it easy on my poor Percocet addled brain ...

Edit - seriously, I can't focus well enough to clean up this thread right now. Chill please?

I think I'll take this advice and let Saint enjoy his meds.  Pushing this further helps no one.

[abaraba]

Haze, if I understand correctly, the underlying theme of your posts is that the mamedevs are struggling to get new recruits.

That's new Haze/MAME, old Haze was very different.

Haze, June 03, 2005: - "And no, we don't care about popularity, I don't think anybody on the dev team would care if everybody started using vantage to play their games, or raine, or anything else providing they left us alone to develop." - "...MAMEs popularity is a large problem."

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=37734.120
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=37734.280

If you dogmatically insist that MAME must be kept pure in some arbitrary way, and that nothing can be added to the program that doesn't involve "documenting the hardware" then they're probably going to walk away.

Dogmatically insist that MAME must be kept pure in some arbitrary way.

Hehee, that describes it, however "documenting the hardware" is apperantly not what they're after anymore. Current documentation says 720 uses 'analog joystick', which is false, and you see they obviously do not care.

Playing it on a PC is no more side-effect, it became intention and priority, which compromises their legal position, but to also *un-document* authentic controller in the same time shows they are not even preserving/emulating anymore, it is more correctly described as PORTING/CONVERTING games to PC. It's all up side down. It is users who now want accurate documentation while developers are hacking playability out of "modern hardware".

[abaraba]

2 people is hardly the same as several.

I see two groups of people, both disagree with Haze and supposed current view of MAME team, including you, but one group approves and the other disproves. -- To disprove what you do not agree with is 'honest feedback', but to (passively) approve what you do not agree with out of some (prior) gratefulness, or whatever, is not really in anyone's interest, as they will hardly get back on track if they are not aware they went astray.


Do you believe/approve with this same blind fate/passivity everything your government is doing as well(?) To be a "patriot" is one thing, but if your empire strikes back at innocent people and destroys planets, then being a patriot does not make you a good guy or on the right side anymore. Sometimes the right thing to do is to raise a rebellion, defeat Darth Vader and throw Emperor down the shaft. -- Don't be such a stormtrooper!

[saint]

Dude... The shark is thoroughly jumped now. The empire is safe. Princess Leia has been rescued.

[SammyWI]

Dude... The shark is thoroughly jumped now. The empire is safe. Princess Leia has been rescued.

You're supposed to be resting!  Take another happy pill and I'm sure you'll realize that these are not the droids you're looking for.   

[jennifer]

          Jump the shark?....What does the "Fonz" have to do with this?.... You guys are so mean!

[Haze]

correct, controls are external.  The way external things interact with the PCB emulation is not part of the project goal.

Handling input is essential and very much internal part of any game's functionality. Monitor is not part of PCB, so it is fake scan-lines, stretching, blurring and filtering that is EXTERNAL (unnecessary).

There is nothing conflicting about these statements.  Playing the games is a side-effect of correct emulation.  To obtain correct emulation it is necessary to have people using MAME.  It's a CYCLE.

"Playing the games" is the same thing as "people using MAME" in the next sentence. It can either be necessity or side-effect, not both, one excludes the other. It is either intentional or coincidental, conflict is in relation to potential legal liability.

You've clearly not played many games, pretty much every PS3 game, and an awful lot of 360 games have severe tearing.  You might not like it, but it's a fact.
GT5 for example has it almost all the time.
http://uk.gamespot.com/ps3/driving/granturismo52/show_msgs.php?topic_id=m-1-57294186&pid=941103

Other people in that thread, and I, dispute there is any tearing. Simple sync to monitor refresh solves all the tearing problems, so the guy reporting it was possibly having some issues due to video conversion or NTSC/PAL settings, or was simply referring to some other visual artifact as "tearing". -- One of us is not telling the truth, I mean you.

The games DON'T sync to vblank, there are many many games which don't.  I have / have rented over 100 xbox / PS3 titles and I can tell you at least half of them DON'T sync, at all.  Another one with REALLY bad tearing is Saint's Row, on the 360 tears every time you turn.  Having worked in the industry I know the effect, I know what causes is, and there are plenty of developers reluctant to sync to vblank these days, especially on the PS3.

Your attitude here absolutely stinks.  You refuse to believe what you are being told, no matter how clearly it is explained.

You come up with your own BS reasons about why things are done, just as X2 has attempted to do, despite being told, and having things clearly explained by me, one of the people who ACTUALLY BEEN INVOLVED IN MANY OF THE DECISIONS.

Which part of 'if you want change, create your own build' do you not understand?

Do I care if people are using old versions?  Not really, their choice, they ARE missing out on a lot of other improvements, but if it works for them, it works for them.  Maybe not being directly involved in the project people are missing out on the astronomical number of fixes made all the time, fixed based on user feedback from running the emulator and finding bugs in the actual emulation, which make it very hard for me to trust something as old as 0.90, 0.106 or whatever else to offer a solid level of emulation.  Part of that user feedback may well have been that it was impossible to test 720 properly on a PC due to the absurd controller requirements in older builds which was a sentiment obviously shared by the development team.

If you plan on ripping out the control scheme which actually allows me to run and test 720 on a normal PC, which is what 99% of the devs own, I will oppose that change.  Being able to test and develop something, on normal hardware is a REQUIREMENT.  Being able to hook up the original controller IS NOT A REQUIREMENT.

If you plan on adding excessive configuration options Aaron will almost certainly oppose / reject your change, he's expressed before he wants to keep command line switches etc. down to a minimum.

As I've said, and will continue to say, the ability to hook up the original controller has nothing to do with the accuracy of the emulation.  Being able to test it on a standard PC, to ensure the accuracy of emulation has everything to do with the accuracy of emulation.

You can quote me all you want, the quotes you've used were my way of attempting to encourage users to look elsewhere, use other emulators.  While I like having everything in MAME, I don't believe a MAME monoculture is healthy, for one, it means morons keep bugging us about how they want specific features, such as .. 720 controls .. whereas if there was more choice people could just go where the choice was.  If you hadn't noticed, I've been saying 'create your own build' quite often.  When popularity means people expect MAME to do everything, even things the developers don't really want to do then it IS a problem, and people SHOULD be looking elsewhere.

There are MANY areas in which MAME hasn't decided to go with what is 'popular'.

There is still no official netplay (although at this point, providing the solution was reasonable like ClientServerMAME it does provide a good way to test deterministic behavior and state support)
There are no destructive image filters (eagle, 2xSAI)
There is no fake 3d acceleration on things like PSX, N64, Saturn hardware
There are no 'fake' systems with purposely overclocked CPUs to eliminate slowdowns
There are no 'fake' commandline options to run all games at 60fps internally, screen tear is considered a better option.
There are no fake transparency effects on 2D fighters
There are no fake macro inputs to make fighting game moves easier to pull off
There is no fancy windows GUI
There is no built-in force feedback (it's not cross-platform / device friendly)
There is no option to replace game sounds with custom MP3s and samples
There is no option to run the 'EmuDX' versions of the games

If all people want are these features, they should look elsewhere likewise if YOU want support for original controllers, you should look elsewhere too.

BUT, some features to make MAME attractive are needed, because as I've said more times than I care to count now, if there was NO testing, and NO userbase, then well.. the accuracy of emulation would probably be back in the 0.2x dark-ages.  It's called striking a balance, ensuring that things CAN be developed and will get tested.  It's also true that some of the non-essential options in MAME are just pet projects of the developers.  The entire image filtering system we do have it just an experiment from Aaron.  It's his code, and his part of the project, why shouldn't he be allowed to do a few things he wants to do there.  It's an interesting piece of tech albeit one that didn't hold his interest for long.

So .. In the politest possible way the only thing I can say is:

If you don't like it then create your own build, and shut the #### up.

If you wish to continually talk down on the development team as if we've made some kind of mistake that's your problem, not ours, your condescending attitude does not help your cause, at all.  You are nobody.

[shateredsoul]

Haze, I think many people have expressed their gratitude for your work.. many more than those who have complained or picked on the mame dev team. As humans, I do think we tend to notice the negative more than the positive. The hand full of people who complain probably stand out a lot more than the rest. Either way, why get so heated about this whole debate? It's hard to tell how seriously you're taking it, but you seem pretty po'd about the xiaou guy. At the end of the day, I bet that guy doesn't even care what people say (notice how he ignores the comments he doesn't like). If you're not annoyed by all of this maybe I just read into your commenting too much, but I know this stuff tends to get poeple pretty aggravated. I  just hope you realize  that the rest of us think you're doing a great job, and that's probably worth more than one annoying guy. Many of us appreciate your work, and many of us wish we had the skills to help out.

dr phill -Shatered

[Haze]

Haze, I think many people have expressed their gratitude for your work.. many more than those who have complained or picked on the mame dev team. As humans, I do think we tend to notice the negative more than the positive. The hand full of people who complain probably stand out a lot more than the rest. Either way, why get so heated about this whole debate? It's hard to tell how seriously you're taking it, but you seem pretty po'd about the xiaou guy. At the end of the day, I bet that guy doesn't even care what people say (notice how he ignores the comments he doesn't like). If you're not annoyed by all of this maybe I just read into your commenting too much, but I know this stuff tends to get poeple pretty aggravated. I  just hope you realize  that the rest of us think you're doing a great job, and that's probably worth more than one annoying guy. Many of us appreciate your work, and many of us wish we had the skills to help out.

dr phill -Shatered

I'm not that pissed off, I think you overestimate the amount of time I spend writing the replies, I type fast and can be getting on with other things at the same time, usually coding / fixing bugs / working on things I care about ;-)

It just astounds me that there can be that much misinformation out there, and so little respect for the wishes of the actual developers involved in the project from certain parties who aren't involved at all but still seem to think they know everything.  I'm far from saying everybody here is a hairbrained moron!

If support for the original controls ever happens, it will happen because somebody did it properly, in a minimal impact way while leaving the existing functionality alone completely.  There will be no guarantee it works, and if people moan about it, then support will probably just be ripped straight out.  It's not something I'm going to lose any sleep over because I know the important stuff has been done, documented and preserved and the changes being asked for can be made long after the dev team hit their 70s and everything is controlled with the mind alone ;-)

In the meantime, I'll continue to work on the stuff that actually matters, and needs doing, and yes, that includes Mahjong games.

..and for anybody who really still thinks classic style games died in the 80s, there are even some interesting ones from the 00s, oh, and this won't work until 0.141u1.