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Author Topic: the state of mame  (Read 103629 times)

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shateredsoul

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the state of mame
« on: December 15, 2010, 02:29:56 pm »
http://mamedev.emulab.it/haze/2010/12/09/high-expectations-of-a-threadbare-team/

the positive side is that they're requesting new blood to become involved in the project.

jipp

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2010, 03:53:13 pm »
im new to mame.. but after reading the blog.  i see there is a lot of drama.  probably drama the devs do not need..  but thats typical in any public project. 

hope things work out for the best.  i did not realize there were that many gambling games to emulate.  i guess i fail at gambling.. laughs.

new blood is always helpful. and hope for the best for the continue development of the project. 

im happy that they were able to save as many games as they have.  looking at the list.  iv not heard of majority of them.. i fail at being a gaming nerd it would seem too.

rock on mame.
your patron ( even if I am a fail laughs )
chris.

RayB

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2010, 08:17:33 pm »
Aren't we eagerly awaiting Pac Man Battle Royale?
 ;D
NO MORE!!

shateredsoul

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2010, 10:22:32 pm »
I don't see how they got gambling games mixed into there... those really aren't arcade games.


Vulgar Soul

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2010, 10:43:40 pm »
"reap the benefits of being part of MameDev"

 :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:



Galaga and Mortal Kombat 2 are already emulated.  Nobody cares about MAME anymore.



Lol

As I said in another thread, All I would like to see in the near future are the circa 93'-99', Saturn, PSX, N64, Dreamcast-based boards (but especially Saturn/PSX) with all the 3D fighters, shooters, racers. Sega Model 2, Model 3, Naomi, Midway V Unit, Namco System 22, and System 11 etc.

The Virtua Fighter, Daytona USA, Tekken, Ridge Racer, Cruis'n USA era was the last true wave of arcade hits. They gotta get these emulated before throwin in the towel on the MAME project.

I'm very sad to hear this news anyway but I think there is huge enthusiasm for MAME emulation still out there and I have faith the project could live on. I'm sure if they get the word out they can find dozens of young, talented programmers to take this up.

Haze

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2010, 11:53:43 pm »
"reap the benefits of being part of MameDev"

 :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:



Galaga and Mortal Kombat 2 are already emulated.  Nobody cares about MAME anymore.

Do you do anything here but troll, seriously?

Thought not.

Attitudes like this are half the problem.  There is a LOT to do, and a lot people still ask about.  New people need to get involved if most of it is to get done.  Those 8 year old shooters that were just added ended up multiple with 25+ page threads about them on some forums.  Narrow minded attitudes help nothing.  I'm currently fixing another, much older shooter from IREM, and there are threads all over the place asking when that's going to be fixed too.

I'll continue to work through stuff with the devs who are still active, however it's not realistic that we can do everything, it's 5am now and I've been up all night trying to fix some issues with the Taito game you can see on my site, but with little progress.  That's how much work there still is to do.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 12:00:05 am by Haze »

Xiaou2

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2010, 12:12:05 am »
Quote
Narrow minded attitudes help nothing.

 Very Ironic quote coming from the kid who thinks +20yrs of Arcade fans from ages 6 to +35  do not represent the majority of mames user base.
 
 According to Haze, the majority of mame users are Xbox modders from his generation.  LOL   And, he says this on a Build your Own controls site!  Classic.   :laugh2:

 Gota love the youngens, who think the world revolves around them and them alone.
heh

 
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 12:27:02 am by Xiaou2 »

Vulgar Soul

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2010, 12:31:37 am »
Well, here we go.

shateredsoul

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2010, 01:00:43 am »
I'm interested in hearing more about mame dev and what games are getting worked, not about accusations about who thinks which generation of gamers want etc.  Everyone has their interests, if someone gets involved in mame and loves 90s games and that's all they work on that's fine by me.. it's their time and choice.

Anywho, so who's going to volunteer to be on the mame team?  ::)

wweumina

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2010, 06:51:01 am »
Quote
Narrow minded attitudes help nothing.

 Very Ironic quote coming from the kid who thinks +20yrs of Arcade fans from ages 6 to +35  do not represent the majority of mames user base.
 
 According to Haze, the majority of mame users are Xbox modders from his generation.  LOL   And, he says this on a Build your Own controls site!  Classic.   :laugh2:

 Gota love the youngens, who think the world revolves around them and them alone.
heh

 

Oh no, we aren't going to hear the sob story about how you are too stupid to program again are we?  Otherwise, of course you'd help out...

Haze

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2010, 09:44:26 am »
I'm interested in hearing more about mame dev and what games are getting worked, not about accusations about who thinks which generation of gamers want etc.  Everyone has their interests, if someone gets involved in mame and loves 90s games and that's all they work on that's fine by me.. it's their time and choice.

Anywho, so who's going to volunteer to be on the mame team?  ::)

Yeah, my point was just that if people are going to go around saying 'MAME is done because 2 games are emulated, nothing else matters' then it's not really greatly encouraging, or an accurate reflection of how things are, and the sheer amount of work that DOES need doing.  There are still major platform drivers in need of a complete overhaul, the amount of bugs in the Taito F3 and Konami GX implementations show this, and in both of those cases an entire audio DSP is unemulated, so they don't even sound that close to the original.  Nobody (to my knowledge) is working on any of that despite them being major platforms with important games.  Even somebody who isn't a perfectionist can tell you they have a long way to go.  To say MAME is done, or even to say the important games work perfectly, is far from the truth.  There is room all over the project for somebody to come in and make big improvements.

I see X2 has come to troll as well, rather than actually taking this in and seeing exactly why it means nobody is going to make the changes he wants.

between them pinballjim and X2 really do make this a hostile and unwelcoming place to post.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 09:49:12 am by Haze »

upprc04

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2010, 10:27:45 am »
Who would we need to talk to if we wanted to get involved?  I would maybe be interested at some point, but am pretty busy at the moment.  Looks like Haze?

DillonFoulds

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2010, 12:07:55 pm »
Haze wrote that article, and while I'm not sure of how he currently works with the team, I think he'd be a good foot into the whole project.

And yeah Haze, the regulars really are just here to troll. If you ignore them, they'll go away... maybe... one day...
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 02:20:46 am by DillonFoulds »

Mikezilla

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2010, 12:58:23 pm »
Quote
between them pinballjim and X2 really do make this a hostile and unwelcoming place to post

Really? I actually laughed when I read that. Cmon, dont you think youre over exaggerating just a wee bit? First of all, he is kidding, cmon now, if you cant take a joke like that then damn, maybe you SHOULDNT be on these forums. It really bugs me when people cant take an obvious joke. Especially on an internet forum dedicated to video games. Old ones.

Does it really matter in the big scheme of things if some games dont get emulated and MAME is done with? Is it going to cure cancer? Jesus. They are games. Everyone pretty much has everything they want anyway. The reason why no big names are involved with the MAME project, is because there is no money involved. Someone will come along (such as yourself) and help it along because they are passionate about it. Its not like it cant be started up again even after most of the original developers are off the project.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 01:08:08 pm by Mikezilla »
Pictures are overrated anyway.

Rick

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2010, 01:06:59 pm »
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 01:28:26 pm by Rick »

Vigo

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2010, 01:27:37 pm »
I thought jim's comment was pretty funny as well.   :dunno

pinballjim is our resident "cranky old guy on the porch": He says whatever he feels like, and it probably is offensive if you took it seriously, but does that matter? If you can't grow some thick skin, just ignore him.




Mikezilla

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2010, 02:07:06 pm »
Exactly my point Vigo, thank you.  :cheers: If Haze doesnt know that is how PBJ is, then he obviously doesnt frequent the forums that much anyway.

Uh oh. Its getting kinda hostile in here. My post might get into an altercation with another post. I better go.

 :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:
Pictures are overrated anyway.

shateredsoul

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2010, 02:12:23 pm »
so.. this means we'll be getting taito type x 2 games on there when? Lol j/k :D . I realize there's a lot to do, but I appreciate whats been done so far. It's very impressive when you think about how this one piece of software can emulate so many games. Even if they aren't perfect, without a comparison running next to it it feels real to me.

I'd honestly be happy to see naomi and model 3working on there someday. I now realize why I gut jumped on when I asked that on the mame forums, so for now I'm just waiting for the demul and makaron guys to make more progress.

I probably won't ever be able to contribute anything in my life, and can't ... wait, ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- I'm going to die someday. Screw mame! *runs outside*


Anyways.. I will contribute $$ when I have a real job. I just don't want that $$ to go toward more boards, I'd rather it go to the devs or buy something for the devs as a thank you.  There's enough boards and pcbs and decapped whatevers to last a while.  Use that cash to help out devs who have been around a while or to pay old devs who are no longer around to work on a specific project. It'd be great if I could have a say in where that $$ goes. I.e. wow, I'd like to donate my cash to whoever works on perfecting sega model 2 stuff.

Then again some people lose motivation once a hobbie becomes more like a job. oh well.




shateredsoul

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2010, 02:13:44 pm »
Exactly my point Vigo, thank you.  :cheers: If Haze doesnt know that is how PBJ is, then he obviously doesnt frequent the forums that much anyway.

Uh oh. Its getting kinda hostile in here. My post might get into an altercation with another post. I better go.

 :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

I hate you!

*edit* ok I don't really hate you

Mikezilla

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2010, 02:20:59 pm »
Haha see, that was funny. You know why? I know how to take a joke.  ;D
Pictures are overrated anyway.

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2010, 02:31:14 pm »
1.  MAME does everything I could ever want it to

2.  The MAME license is restrictive

TOK

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2010, 03:00:46 pm »
Quote
Narrow minded attitudes help nothing.

 Very Ironic quote coming from the kid who thinks +20yrs of Arcade fans from ages 6 to +35  do not represent the majority of mames user base.
 
 According to Haze, the majority of mame users are Xbox modders from his generation.  LOL   And, he says this on a Build your Own controls site!  Classic.   :laugh2:

 Gota love the youngens, who think the world revolves around them and them alone.
heh

 

Oh no, we aren't going to hear the sob story about how you are too stupid to program again are we?  Otherwise, of course you'd help out...

Lucky for you 1 inch death punches can't be sent through the mail!  :dizzy:

Haze

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2010, 03:11:43 pm »
Who would we need to talk to if we wanted to get involved?  I would maybe be interested at some point, but am pretty busy at the moment.  Looks like Haze?

The source would be the place to start.  Find something you can fix, and fix it properly (not with hacks) and generally keep doing that sort of thing.

The good thing about MAME (and emulation in general) is that other pieces of the source are often a great reference, and help with fixing things.  Hardware tends to be quite logical, and often follows common design patterns.

The compile process etc. is made as easy as possible to help allow newcomers to contribute easily, and in general if you have specific questions about a driver / piece of code then they can be answered by the dev team.

At the end of the day it's mostly about initiative and understanding how the hardware should work, the actual MAME code (that you'll actually need to change) is for the most part straightforward as long as you have some programming experience.  Pick something you want to have a shot at fixing, weigh up how realistic it is (if it requires new ROMs, or actual hardware tests then it's harder) and once you've found something that seems realistic, take a stab at it.  That's how I ended up getting involved, and the same for all the devs who have come and gone really.

Haze

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2010, 03:18:30 pm »
2.  The MAME license is restrictive

The only real restriction beyond the license on which it's based is that it can't be used for commercial purposes.

Beyond that the license is very fair and open, and some parts of the code even lift that restriction if it's felt there is real benefit in doing so (the CHD support code for example)

If you're going to get anal because it's not a true 'Open Source' license, so be it, but as far as the team are concerned it's an open project; the dev team simply don't want somebody bundling it up and selling it (and at the end of the day, that's better for everybody, because it means people doing ports aren't just going to take buggy MAME code and release it as a commercial product when maybe they could have done a better job actually porting something, or doing their own research with actual help from the original manufacturers.  The MAME code is also not optimized for low-end systems, so ports not using the MAME code will run better too)  The MAME team claim NO ownership over the information discovered however, you can use the findings (which is the bulk of the work) however you want, they're facts, not something you can claim ownership of.

The rest of the so-called 'license' issues are merely requests from the developers to not do things (like removing the nag screens) because it creates too many issues as far as bug tracking and the like are concerned because people aren't properly informed of the emulation state with those screens gone.  This is just a matter of common sense and respect for the wishes of the development team.

Saying that the MAME license is restrictive is quite frankly, a myth, it's just something people are using to attack the project in the same way they did with Mahjong games in the past, saying that the devs only care about those.

You've only got to open up something like the FreeDo (3d0 emulator) license to see what restrictive is, they more or less claim that if you even look at their code, they own the right to be credited for anything you ever do even if you don't use a single line of their code.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 03:35:50 pm by Haze »

YoMama1

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2010, 03:58:49 pm »

The only real restriction beyond the license on which it's based is that it can't be used for commercial purposes.

The dev team simply don't want somebody bundling it up and selling it (and at the end of the day, that's better for everybody...

This restriction is pretty huge, and I think it is quite a turnoff for potential developers.  In general people like to get paid for work.  That's what this comes down to, right?

People cannot port mame to be used in an iPad app.  This would be totally legit.

I can't use MAME at a school fundraiser without feeling bad (I understand the ROM issue, let's put that aside for now).

shateredsoul

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2010, 04:22:01 pm »

The only real restriction beyond the license on which it's based is that it can't be used for commercial purposes.

The dev team simply don't want somebody bundling it up and selling it (and at the end of the day, that's better for everybody...

This restriction is pretty huge, and I think it is quite a turnoff for potential developers.  In general people like to get paid for work.  That's what this comes down to, right?

People cannot port mame to be used in an iPad app.  This would be totally legit.

I can't use MAME at a school fundraiser without feeling bad (I understand the ROM issue, let's put that aside for now).

I don't think you would find any emulator developer who would agree with you. Plus, people are porting mame.. what you talking about? It'x on xbox, dingoo, psp, and other platforms.

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2010, 04:23:07 pm »
I don't see that as being a restriction at all.  MAME has always been free and built by people that were/are willing to give up their time freely so you and I can play games.  If they commercialized it at this point, someone would be profiting on all those hours from all those people.  That was never the intent.  This is a free program coded by generous people and it's come to the point where some vocal individuals have discouraged the team.  Instead of bitching about what has/has not been done, people should instead be saying thank you for the progress so far.  IMHO, MAME should go underground and stop releasing to the public.  Then you'll see all sorts of people wanting to get involved.

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2010, 04:32:54 pm »
As I've said elsewhere

a) 90% of the work is the reverse engineering.  It can take months, sometimes even years and cost a great deal of money in figuring out.
b) The code that is a result of that can take 5-10 minutes to write*

MAME is giving you a) for free
MAME is saying, you can use b) however you want, just not for commercial purposes.

If working on an actual commercial project you should be pushing for the original manufacturer to give you a) (because an original reference manual / material is better than MAME or at least would complement it)
in which case you wouldn't be using b) anyway

However, MAME makes a) available for free, despite it being 90% of the work, because obviously in some cases the original material simply isn't available and we don't want to hinder people, nor would it even seem fair to try and claim ownership over facts we discovered.

Do you really want to see all ports released on consoles etc. as 0 effort straight ports of the exact code in MAME, bugs and all, because it was cheaper and easier?  Asking people to do their own implementations at least makes them think about what they're doing rather than rushed, buggy direct ports which aren't optimized for the target hardware at all.

In the case of iPad apps, many OSS licenses are incompatible anyway.  Any that requires the source release is incompatible, which is a key part of most of them, and an important part of MAME.  This isn't a restriction, this is about keeping the project open, and unrestricted.  Do you want DRM laden versions of MAME, tied to a single platform, which only run specific ROMs?  Of course not, it's an open _unrestricted_ project.

As for MAME at charity events, you say you don't care much about the ROM issue, but in a public place that should be just as much of a concern.


* this is why support for games in other projects often appears so quickly after MAME has emulated them, the team have done the hard work, the implementation is trivial.

« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 04:41:20 pm by Haze »

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2010, 05:06:04 pm »
Haze, the key to getting things done and not getting demotivated by the great unwashed masses (wait, what? unwashed? How about uninformed and impatient masses) is to stay off the forums.  Don't read the nonsense. People can be vocal but they don't always represent reality.
NO MORE!!

Haze

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2010, 05:11:58 pm »
Haze, the key to getting things done and not getting demotivated by the great unwashed masses (wait, what? unwashed? How about uninformed and impatient masses) is to stay off the forums.  Don't read the nonsense. People can be vocal but they don't always represent reality.


That kinda goes against my principals of keeping people informed about the project and goings on (which in turn, can help get them involved)

It's the only angle on which I can agree that MameDev sometimes seem elitist, like they feel they don't have to talk to people, explain things, or help people understand what's really going on.  I try my best to make sure that isn't the case, and that (as long as people don't ask the same question over and over, expecting the answer to change) good, informative answers are given, that help people understand how things work.

Right now the only 'official' way to contact MAMEdev is through a simple form on the homepage, you have no real knowledge of who is going to read what you've said, when they're going to read it, or if it's even the right type of thing to post.  Likewise even if you do get a reply, nobody else benefits from it.  Public discussion is there for anybody else to read, and learn from, which can be both interesting, and benefit the project as a whole.

I find the current system to be very cold, and almost makes the team seem unapproachable, and distant.  When you're trying to find new contributors, that isn't always beneficial.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 05:14:02 pm by Haze »

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2010, 05:25:04 pm »
NO MORE!!

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2010, 05:44:07 pm »
Haze, the key to getting things done and not getting demotivated by the great unwashed masses (wait, what? unwashed? How about uninformed and impatient masses) is to stay off the forums.  Don't read the nonsense. People can be vocal but they don't always represent reality.


That kinda goes against my principals of keeping people informed about the project and goings on (which in turn, can help get them involved)

It's the only angle on which I can agree that MameDev sometimes seem elitist, like they feel they don't have to talk to people, explain things, or help people understand what's really going on.  I try my best to make sure that isn't the case, and that (as long as people don't ask the same question over and over, expecting the answer to change) good, informative answers are given, that help people understand how things work.

Right now the only 'official' way to contact MAMEdev is through a simple form on the homepage, you have no real knowledge of who is going to read what you've said, when they're going to read it, or if it's even the right type of thing to post.  Likewise even if you do get a reply, nobody else benefits from it.  Public discussion is there for anybody else to read, and learn from, which can be both interesting, and benefit the project as a whole.

I find the current system to be very cold, and almost makes the team seem unapproachable, and distant.  When you're trying to find new contributors, that isn't always beneficial.

Hey, your approach is appreciated, you are absolutely right that the team can seem very distant. It's good to see that you are making way to change that!  :cheers:

I think Ray is just hitting on that you are probably taking a few comments pretty seriously and that can be disheartening for you when you are putting in a lot of work. We are not really trollers or MAME abusers on this board. It's just a little "shop talk" and we unapologetically say what we want around here. If it so happens that there are complaints or joke about MAME, thats how it goes. Its probably just a sign that you are right about better communication being needed.

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2010, 08:03:35 pm »
"The whines of the few do not outweigh the accolades of the many, or the one" or something along those lines :)

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2010, 09:15:14 pm »
"The whines of the few do not outweigh the accolades of the many, or the one" or something along those lines :)

 :stupid

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2010, 10:11:28 pm »
I'm interested in hearing more about mame dev and what games are getting worked, not about accusations about who thinks which generation of gamers want etc.  Everyone has their interests, if someone gets involved in mame and loves 90s games and that's all they work on that's fine by me.. it's their time and choice.

Anywho, so who's going to volunteer to be on the mame team?  ::)

Yeah, my point was just that if people are going to go around saying 'MAME is done because 2 games are emulated, nothing else matters' then it's not really greatly encouraging, or an accurate reflection of how things are, and the sheer amount of work that DOES need doing.  There are still major platform drivers in need of a complete overhaul, the amount of bugs in the Taito F3 and Konami GX implementations show this, and in both of those cases an entire audio DSP is unemulated, so they don't even sound that close to the original.  Nobody (to my knowledge) is working on any of that despite them being major platforms with important games.  Even somebody who isn't a perfectionist can tell you they have a long way to go.  To say MAME is done, or even to say the important games work perfectly, is far from the truth.  There is room all over the project for somebody to come in and make big improvements.

I see X2 has come to troll as well, rather than actually taking this in and seeing exactly why it means nobody is going to make the changes he wants.

between them pinballjim and X2 really do make this a hostile and unwelcoming place to post.

PBJ is an alright guy dude

X2.... is getting better

PW79 however is awesome  ;D

Anyway more games would be good, if I knew how to program I would help.
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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2010, 09:19:48 pm »
Times like this make me wish I paid more attention in my high school Visual Basic class lol.

Haze is absolutely right though. I do love MAME as it is now, but I'd hate to watch this great project die so soon. I do believe there is still a lot of progress that can be made.

MAME team refuses to be open about development or communication when they are in desperate need of new, enthusiastic blood and creative minds.

I won't complain cus I'd rather be part of the solution than part of the problem. I can't program, but I"ll do what I can to spread the word to anyone interested in gaming and programming.

My fellow hobbyists of BYOAC, ask not what MAME can do for you, ask what you can do for MAME!

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2010, 01:15:08 am »
Haze, the thing is, you often....er, sometimes....seem to come across as some soft porn combination of David Foley and Xiaou2. Ardence is great. Religious zeal, not so much. (How you have the time to do all you do, and respond to this topic here and your blog, no less at the lengths you do, is impressive.)

In any case, what will happen to mameworld if the projects ends up really tanking?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 01:19:51 am by Gray_Area »
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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2010, 02:48:35 am »
Mame isnt going to get much further without money.  Not merely for buying up the remaining PCBs... but to actually pay people to develop things that nobody would care to spend time on otherwise.

 Id mentioned it before... and it got shot down.  Then later, the Devs said it would be a good idea.  Yet, there has been no action to date.


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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2010, 11:19:18 am »
Mame isnt going to get much further without money.  Not merely for buying up the remaining PCBs... but to actually pay people to develop things that nobody would care to spend time on otherwise.

 Id mentioned it before... and it got shot down.  Then later, the Devs said it would be a good idea.  Yet, there has been no action to date.

and I've told you before, aside from the type of core changes you're asking for paying people won't help.

you could gather up the worlds best c / c++ programmers, and pay to work on MAME, but all you're likely to see are architecture changes, and reworking of the existing code.  You could get them to rewrite the emulator from the ground up but without actually improving the emulation or documentation of anything.

The reverse engineering and discovery of new things (which is where the real value of MAME lies, and is 90% of the work) is a completely different skillset, and is a complete unknown, and not something you can just pay people to work on.  They wouldn't know where to start.  It takes self-motivation, and *enjoyment* of the challenge of reverse engineering the stuff as well as making reasonable assumptions to understand how how hardware would probably work in order to make progress.

As I've explained in a reply on my blog, there is a huge gulf between people writing code for MAME with commercial intent, and the type of devs needed to actually advance the project.  For a project with set goals 'we need a module that does X/Y to these exact specs' then paid / hired hands work.  For a project like MAME you're dealing more with real world cases, having to handle things where even if you have documentation (CPUs, Sound chips etc.) there are huge holes in the documentation, and the only way to understand them is by extensively studying the behavior of the games and making educated guesses.

The actual code for the drivers is trivial, and takes up 5% of the time.  The actual understanding of everything in order to write that code is the main challenge.  That's why within 5 minutes of MAME emulating something it's very easy for somebody to port the drivers to FinalBurnAlpha in under a day, even if it's taken 10+ years to figure out how to emulate the game in the process.

Having worked with people in the industry most of them see the work done in MAME as some kind of black magic.  They wouldn't know where to start with the whole reverse engineering thing, and are just glad that somebody has figured all of this out for them.

Take the example of the guy who helped port SpyHunter ( http://www.ppl-pilot.com/mame.aspx )

A lot of people will probably just complain that it's a poor effort (I think he did an admirable job when you consider the constraints put on him by the publisher, and target platform), but what I want to focus on is the techniques.  He basically brute-forced the maps and graphics out of the game via MAME.  In reality, MAME, with it's integrated debugger and open code could easily have been used to figure out, from the original game code, how the maps were drawn and where the data was stored in rom.  Start by logging writes to video ram, used for the tiles, then trace it back.  You could even trace how the tile data was sourced.

He took the 'programmer' approach, which in the end paid off for his project.  The 'reverse engineering' technique would be closer to what Mamedev have to do when studying protection schemes and such, or tracking down obscure bugs in drivers.  It's a different mentality, and not really one which mainstream C / C++ trained programmers are suited to, had he been I imagine he could have done the work much more quickly and with a greater degree of confidence (he could have just wrote code that looked up the data and graphics in the rom for example)

The article also highlights what complete and utter d**ks publishers can be, and believe me, if you ever needed evidence that if MAME was allowed for commerical use all ports would just be straight MAME ports, that's it.  If the publisher KNOWs they can legally use MAME they'll give the developers a budget of 0, and just tell them to port MAME.  That wouldn't be good, for anybody.  As the article also point out, some developers choose to rip it off anyway (the code from a previous release he was given), but that's a risk some of the bigger, more legitimate ones wouldn't take (or if were alerted to, would pull the product, it's happened before with other software)

As for Mameworld.  Mame existed before Mameworld, Mame will exist after Mameworld should it die one day.  The information in the project is safe as long as you can still keep a copy and download things to a machine you actually own.

Money will get chips decapped, Money will purchase boards and equpiment needed for testing and reference.  Money won't speed up the actual progess of understanding the hardware.  We picked up a Gals Panic 2 for under $10 to study, but finding time to study it, and work with the hardware to understand how it communicates with the protection, the secrets of the protection and then actually UNDERSTAND them and the results of sending random values to a black box, and then know what else to throw at the board to find out more isn't so easy, and isn't a task for somebody who is a pure 'modern' programmer either.  In many senses this part of emulation is a specialist skill, especially when you consider the goals of MAME, unlike commercial ones, are to understand things and do things properly rather than hacking things up to get one game playable and shipped for a compilation.  It's not really the type of skill you can just 'buy' or pay to learn, the only really way is to take part in it yourself, by contributing to emulation software!

"Most good programmers do programming not because they expect to get paid or get adulation by the public, but because it is fun to program."
- Linus Torvalds

I think this quote is true of MAME to this date.  I also think this mentality is changing, which won't be healthy for any open projects.  The reason I've always been an active part of the team is because it's FUN to discover new things, and see how things worked, and to explain it to others.  Not because the games are any good, or because there is any financial incentive.  The same could be said of all the best devs the project has ever had.

The large number of commercial re-rereleases of emulated games (the ones using emulators that is) has no bearing on the ability of the devs behind them to actually emulate something, merely their ability to take information that is presented to them (MAME) and write code, based on that, more specficially optimized etc. for their target platform.  They will be applying hacks where neccessary to keep things smooth (for exmaple, deem emulation of sound subsystems too demanding, so simulate it instead), or dealing with trademark / copyright issues (for example, if they no longer have a license for some music they used)  while adding a flashy frontend and bonus content to the whole thing.  This is what paid, commercial developers are good at, so luring them to work on MAME would achieve very little.

Paying devs would also result in something of a 'race' to fix things, this is unproductive.  It's very easy to 'fix' one case from the point of view of a user, while at the same time adding code so damn-awful it has no place in any project, nevermind MAME.  The arguments over payment, with the developer claiming 'it works' and the dev team saying 'but it's completely wrong full of hacks, and bloody terrible' would be unproductive at best.  You've only got to look at something like MAMEuiFX where all the 'fixes' that are added are actually just awful hacks.  They 'work' but they work by adding specific hack code to each game, and breaking things which are known to otherwise be correct (treating the symptoms, not the cause)   This is especially true of the type of fixes you get from people who don't understand the hardware aspect of MAME, which again, is the type of people you're likely to get if you look for paid hands.

You also risk a situation where nobody new wants to do anything for MAME for free, because it starts to seem unfair that some people are getting paid.

Where would you rather see money spent? on actually extracting data from chips to allow improvements to the emulation, or paid developers who would just split the project in 2?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 12:04:07 pm by Haze »

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Re: the state of mame
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2010, 10:04:01 pm »
Take the personal out of it please. I'd rather spend this time with my family than babysitting bad behavior.  Multiple threads snipped.
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