Question for computer builders and MAME

[boogieman]

I am thinking about taking the plunge and building a "modern" Mame system. 

Any opinions on a AMD phenom II vs. an Intel I7 processor?

I guess I need it cheap as possible, but would also like a powerhouse playing stuff like nfl blitz or polygon type games...  but mainly cheap lol.

[patm95]

I wouldn't call myself an expert by any means, but I have always heard that AMD gives you more bang for the buck.  I have also read on this forum that CPU power is more important than GPU power in mame. 

[Turnarcades]

I have also read on this forum that CPU power is more important than GPU power in mame. 

Not any more. Since v0.106, MAME's core was re-written to utilise graphics and sound cards and even take advantage of them to boost performance even though the devs said originally they never would do this. CPU power was more important in pre-0.106 builds but now it's a mix of both CPU and GPU; maybe not at the baseline benchmarks but gameplay wise it will differ greatly. Don't also forget the two software factors that many seem to forget; the maturity of the MAME core (and hence it's in-built emulation code) will still also determine playable speed, as will the maturity of the platform drivers/code used to run a particular game. Both of these will always improve over time so what spec may not run a game now may run it just fine in a few version's time.

I couldn't care less about much later arcade games and have always stuck with MAME 0.105, which runs many polygon-based games well, most of the .chd-based games and those tricky Midway games like the MK series on little more than a 2Ghz Pentium 4 and low RAM, without the need for certain graphics or sound cards in order to display the way I want them or suffer from sound or motion lag.

[drventure]

Not any more. Since v0.106, MAME's core was re-written to utilise graphics and sound cards and even take advantage of them to boost performance even though the devs said originally they never would do this. CPU power was more important in pre-0.106 builds but now it's a mix of both CPU and GPU

Interesting. I did not know that. I was still under the impression they didn't use the GPU.


I've been using an AMD Phenom II, and it works fine for most Mame games (the newest 3d games drag, but from what I I've understood, that's pretty much going to be the case unless you get into 4+ghz overclocking)

Is it still true that multi cores don't really improve mame perf much (yet anyways)?

[boogieman]

thanks for the input so far.  I saw an interesting article here: http://www.pureoverclock.com/review.php?id=794&page=1

If you don't want to read the whole thing the last two pages sum it up nicely.  Basically, hard number wise the I7 is slightly better on some games, but price wise Phenom II blows it out of the water.  They said unless you were doing hardcore video editing Phenom II was MUCH cheaper with a very slight drop in performance.  They said the performance was so close it would be hard to even tell without benchmark tests.

Looks like the phenom II will be getting my vote. 

I am thinking something around a Phenom II 3ghz processor will make this thing scream!  Been looking around though, I can build it for around $500 with a builder version of windows 7.  Thats with a 2TB HD, 8GB ram and misc stuff to hook it all together.  I already have an arcade VGA card and IPAC so I will be re using them.  It will be a few months before I start purchasing components, so hopefully costs will go down some more by then.

What pisses me off is I have to pay $100+ for an OS that I am basically going to bypass by shelling to the front end.    :'(

[newmanfamilyvlogs]

Not any more. Since v0.106, MAME's core was re-written to utilise graphics and sound cards and even take advantage of them to boost performance even though the devs said originally they never would do this. CPU power was more important in pre-0.106 builds but now it's a mix of both CPU and GPU

Interesting. I did not know that. I was still under the impression they didn't use the GPU.


I've been using an AMD Phenom II, and it works fine for most Mame games (the newest 3d games drag, but from what I I've understood, that's pretty much going to be the case unless you get into 4+ghz overclocking)

Is it still true that multi cores don't really improve mame perf much (yet anyways)?

It doesn't use the gpu for polygon calculations. It uses it for d3d hardware stretching or direct draw. Some low end cards do a poor job at these and incur a performance hit as a result.

[drventure]

Ah.. That would explain how they can use a GPU but still stay true to the emulation mantra.

[newmanfamilyvlogs]

And I've got the intention of taking a 'hard' make game on a C2D and running it through underclocked up to stock with one core disabled vs both cores enabled and see what happens.

[drventure]

I'd like to hear how that goes!

[LeedsFan]

I don't know too much about AMD processors but I hear they do give the best bang for the buck. But I still decided to go with an i3-550 on my latest build. It was under £100 and will OC to 4.0GHz easily. That's overkill for Mame ofc but I want this system to play modern games reasonably well too. It won't play stuff at max settings with full AA because the card is only a Radeon 5570. That's still a mid range card though and with that processor it should be a half decent rig.

[shateredsoul]

If you go with intel I would suggest the i7 920, not too expensive and if you want higher cpu speed you can overclock the hell out of it.  I overclocked mine to 3.5 ghz pretty easily (and staying within ok temps). Without overclocking I was able to run any game pretty well in mame, I overclocked it mainly for the dolphin emulator. Some have overclocked it to 4ghz .. but you'd need some time of water cooling system. I still think it's crazy that liquid nitrogen is used as cooling in some systems.

[bpark42]

I don't know too much about AMD processors but I hear they do give the best bang for the buck. But I still decided to go with an i3-550 on my latest build. It was under £100 and will OC to 4.0GHz easily. That's overkill for Mame ofc but I want this system to play modern games reasonably well too.

I was a strictly AMD guy for 10 years or so (built maybe 15-20 systems) because they always won out when it came to price vs. performance.  Lately I am an Intel convert again.  The i7 processors are beasts.  My personal machine is based on an i7 920 overclocked to 3.6GHz or so.  It will run just about anything at 100%, including Blitz, etc.

I also recently built myself a personal server and decided to base it around an Intel i3.  I did the research, and the i3's represent a really good value, especially if you don't need high end graphics in your system, since the cpu itself has integrated graphics.

The i3 processors are probably one of the best possible choices for a mame system right now.  Inexpensive, high-performance per core (the limited number of cores isn't really a drawback for mame right now), easily overclocked, decent integrated graphics....  Best bang-for-your-buck deal, IMO.

[JODY]

If you can afford a Pentium 7 they are nice.  If you are on a lesser budget, I'd recommend an AMD Phenom II X4.  I built one using the 3.4 Ghz version as part of a combo deal from NewEgg about a month ago.  Regular price is higher but still a good deal.  There is also a newer 3.5 Ghz version.  The other thing I did that makes it run MAME well is to add high speed RAM to it.  Went with 4GB of DDR3 1600 with a 7-8-7-24-2N timing which is faster than some of the other models.  Blitz is very playable on a lower end 2.8 Ghz triple core AMD I have wth the lesser DDR3 1600 RAM.  On the Phenom II X4 it is full speed using 64 bit MAME.  Games like Cruisin USA run at 120% using the X4 while they run at 85 - 100% using the 2.8 Ghz triple core.

That is with no overclocking of the CPU.  I used Gigabyte motherboards, which I have had very good luck with.  Using only the onboard sound and video so only 3.5GB of memory is available to the OS.  Running Windows 7 on both machines.  The very high speed RAM requires setting the BIOS properly as it will not default to the correct settings to make use of it.

[newmanfamilyvlogs]

I've been curious how much the speed of the ram matters. Have you run specific benchmconfigs different ram speeds or is this just observations from different configs?

[JODY]

I've been curious how much the speed of the ram matters. Have you run specific benchmconfigs different ram speeds or is this just observations from different configs?

I just read on a few websites technical details regarding the memory specs and their meanings and impact on performance.  The memory was priced identical to some of the other by the same brand so went with what should give better performance.  The other RAM had flashier metal fins painted red so I guess that accounted for the price vs. the plain looking RAM that actually had better specs.  I have not swapped RAM between the two machines and ran benchmarks to actually tell what kind of difference it makes in MAME.  It would depend on where the bottleneck is.  The RAM in both machines is DDR3 1600.  Just that the specs are better for the RAM in the quad core machine.

[shateredsoul]

care sharing the type/brand of ram you bought?

[bpark42]

I doubt the speed of the RAM matters much.  Performance is actually often better if you run the RAM at a slower clock with tighter timings.

[JODY]

Did a quick Google search on PC performance and RAM speed.  Most legit article I found on page 1 was this one from Tom's Hardware.  It is 2 years old but should give an idea.  It notes minimal impact but if it is 5% that helps.  Note that the RAM speeds in this article are slower than what is available today and the prices have dropped considerably.  I did not pay a fortune as noted in the article.  

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/ram-speed-tests,1807.html

The quad core machine contains the following:
Motherboard:  GIGABYTE GA-880GMA-UD2H AM3 AMD 880G HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 Micro ATX AMD Motherboard
Memory:  G.SKILL ECO Series 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Desktop Memory Model F3-12800CL7D-4GBECO
HD:  Western Digital Caviar Black WD1002FAEX 1TB 7200 RPM 64MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive
CPU:  AMD Phenom II X4 965 Black Edition Deneb 3.4GHz 4 x 512KB L2 Cache 6MB L3 Cache Socket AM3 125W Quad-Core Processor HDZ965FBGMBOX

[JODY]

If you are building a new PC here is a good deal on memory (has mail in rebate):  http://www.buy.com/prod/kingston-hyperx-4gb-2-x-2gb-ddr3-1066mhz-sdram-non-ecc-240-pin-memory/q/loc/101/212695590.html

[Turnarcades]

Such ..... overpowering ....... specs ..... dying under the weight of people's wallets .... It's always baffled me as to what games some are so desperate to run that you want to squeeze even more power out of top-end PC's?

[shateredsoul]

Such ..... overpowering ....... specs ..... dying under the weight of people's wallets .... It's always baffled me as to what games some are so desperate to run that you want to squeeze even more power out of top-end PC's?

like people trying to play gamecube or wii games, yeah a wii would be cheaper.. so what?

 

[General_Faliure]

What pisses me off is I have to pay $100+ for an OS that I am basically going to bypass by shelling to the front end.   

I agree, that's why i use a Linux system (Lubuntu 10.10 + WahCade front end), it works well for me.
Besides Mame i use several emulators, (Daphne, Stella, Vice and more).
I also use fairly old hardware, i started with a Athlon XP 1900 and recently upgraded to a Athlon 64 3200.

[shateredsoul]

What pisses me off is I have to pay $100+ for an OS that I am basically going to bypass by shelling to the front end.    :'(

I agree, that's why i use a Linux system (Lubuntu 10.10 + WahCade front end), it works well for me.
Besides Mame i use several emulators, (Daphne, Stella, Vice and more).
I also use fairly old hardware, i started with a Athlon XP 1900 and recently upgraded to a Athlon 64 3200.

ewww wahcade? j/k

Ubuntu was pretty user friendly when I tried it, I just always had issues with the sounds dissapearing randomly, or the cd not working or different components not working anymore. Maybe your experience will be different than mine, but going back to windows made things so much easier... it just works.

Wahcade is the first frontend I tried... that's actually how I found out about frontends. Maximus arcade, Mala, Hyperspin, and gamex are way better choices IMO. Use XP lite if you really are worried about cost (it has its limits in terms of modern systems), don't ask about how to get it because no one will answer.. just google it. And make sure you have a license.... 

or find a cousin, friend, niece, who is a student at a university and ask them to get this for you http://www.microsoft.com/student/en/us/software/windows/default.aspx, win 7 pro for $65

[D_Harris]

Such ..... overpowering ....... specs ..... dying under the weight of people's wallets .... It's always baffled me as to what games some are so desperate to run that you want to squeeze even more power out of top-end PC's?

It's that need to have the best system on the block. The fastest ,most powerful system is like crack. They gotta have it.

Of course the high goes away upon the release of any game that can't be played to the max and as a result puts a strain the PCs resources.(Or your neighbor gets a faster machine).

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[bpark42]

It's that need to have the best system on the block. The fastest ,most powerful system is like crack. They gotta have it.

Of course the high goes away upon the release of any game that can't be played to the max and as a result puts a strain the PCs resources.(Or your neighbor gets a faster machine).

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

Are we even talking about machines dedicated to mame/emulation any more?  Doesn't sound like it...

There are certainly plenty of people who have to buy the latest/greatest/most expensive just cuz, but there are also plenty of people who actually do more with their pc then just email and facebook.  Personally I do a significant amount of video encoding.  Every clock cycle on every core counts. 

And as for emulation, it takes a lot of horsepower to emulate more recent systems like the gamecube.

Also, when people build with components priced in the sweet spot for performance per dollar (you know, like with most of the stuff mentioned in this thread) they tend to come out way ahead of people paying for Dell/etc. crap.

[Turnarcades]

Such ..... overpowering ....... specs ..... dying under the weight of people's wallets .... It's always baffled me as to what games some are so desperate to run that you want to squeeze even more power out of top-end PC's?

like people trying to play gamecube or wii games, yeah a wii would be cheaper.. so what?

 

It's not the cost of the hardware to do it that baffles me - it's why you'd go to the expense of such a powerful system to emulate 6th generation+ consoles, which generally have games dependant on analog control to play correctly, and generally few games suitable for an arcade environment anyway; even less I would hold in memory as so good I just have to have it in my arcade cabinet.

It's like the dolts who approach us asking for PS3 or 360 compatibility "...cos playing black ops on my arcade would be cool!". Errrr, no it wouldn't. Street Fighter 4 is about the limit of suitable games for these consoles that would play better in an arcade cabinet, and as it's available on PC anyway; pointless to bother with interfacing a console. Even those who ask if it's possible to pay and up the spec we install to emulate PS2 or XBox - I simply ask "OK, for what game in particular?" and always get a resounding silence when they realise the handful of games they have in mind would play awful with arcade controls.

[drventure]

The only reason I can think of for putting a higher end machine in is for running other games that could be decent on a cab, like stepmania, or frets on fire, or some of the Doujin shmups, or virtual pinball, or future pinball.

Gotta agree, emulating the old console hardware is kind of an interesting exercise, but it doesn't work out all that well in a cab environment.

Future Pinball, on the other hand....

[LeedsFan]

It all depends on what you are building. I agree that a full size cabinet does not need such specs as more modern games would play like crap anyway with arcade controls. I'm currently building a modular Mame-In-A-Box but it must also run PC games as well and other emulators through Hyperspin. It's basically a PC in a compact, joystick shaped box. But I need decent enough horsepower for that. It comes down to what you are comfortable paying. For me personally shelling out for an i3-550 and Radeon 5570 wasn't too much cash. It's certainly not top end but it isn't old technology either. For a purely Mame based system it would be overkill though I agree.

[Blanka]

Forget the i7 and go i5 or even i3. The i7 is only a beast in 4-core mode. Using 2 cores the i5 can even beat an i7 at half price, and even the new 32nm i3's are really good.

[Turnarcades]

Yeah I guess for certain other apps you'd be better looking at top-end PC's, particularly for Future Pinball (and although I don't believe in front-ends that are more resource-demanding than the games themselves - Hyperspin is now the show-piece of choice many go for), but the original poster did kind of specify the MAME intention so that's where I was coming from.

On a side note, we're about to start work on several new prototypes; the most significant for me is a virtual pinball table. Anyone here built a pinball and can give a simple sum-up of the spec they'd recommend for a single screen, 2-screen and 3-screen setup?

[BobA]

+1 for drventure

Other emulators than just MAME drive alot of upgrades.  Pinball is a big user of resources and you cannot just buy the real thing for the price.  Wii and Xbox360 are easier to buy then emulate but a basement full of pinball machines is tough.

[stuckpixel]

It's not the cost of the hardware to do it that baffles me - it's why you'd go to the expense of such a powerful system to emulate 6th generation+ consoles, which generally have games dependant on analog control to play correctly, and generally few games suitable for an arcade environment anyway; even less I would hold in memory as so good I just have to have it in my arcade cabinet.

It's like the dolts who approach us asking for PS3 or 360 compatibility "...cos playing black ops on my arcade would be cool!". Errrr, no it wouldn't. Street Fighter 4 is about the limit of suitable games for these consoles that would play better in an arcade cabinet, and as it's available on PC anyway; pointless to bother with interfacing a console. Even those who ask if it's possible to pay and up the spec we install to emulate PS2 or XBox - I simply ask "OK, for what game in particular?" and always get a resounding silence when they realise the handful of games they have in mind would play awful with arcade controls.

I can't speak for everyone - but being able to play arcade ports on those emulated systems (soul calibur 2/3, tekken 4/5, many others) is pretty nice. Not to mention, there are joysticks out there that will handle the analog requirements just fine (Ultrastik 360 as an example). There are also console games that would do very well in an arcade style setup as well (Super Monkey Ball comes to mind - as do a number of rail shooters for Wii)

To me - if you're going to go through all the time to build a nice arcade cabinet, it'd be a shame not to put a fairly powerful computer inside of it. Yeah - you can run pacman/galaga/donkey kong on an old Pentium II, but why wouldn't you want to have a box that's going to be able to handle anything cool that comes along as well?

[Gray_Area]

Yeah - you can run pacman/galaga/donkey kong on an old Pentium II, but why wouldn't you want to have a box that's going to be able to handle anything cool that comes along as well?

Like?

What pisses me off is I have to pay $100+ for an OS that I am basically going to bypass by shelling to the front end.   

I agree, that's why i use a Linux system (Lubuntu 10.10 + WahCade front end), it works well for me.
Besides Mame i use several emulators, (Daphne, Stella, Vice and more).
I also use fairly old hardware, i started with a Athlon XP 1900 and recently upgraded to a Athlon 64 3200.

ewww wahcade? j/k

Ubuntu was pretty user friendly when I tried it, I just always had issues with the sounds dissapearing randomly, or the cd not working or different components not working anymore.

I hear the 'T' word echoing in the distance....

[racecar]

hi guys im from australia and jumping into the mame now, sick of using a xbox with mameox etc...

wondering if this rig will be fine to play games like neo geo, capcom games, and the MK series.

also emulators like dreamcast so i can play MvC2 apparently the MAME version is no good?

AMD Athlon II X2 255 Socket AM3 Dual Core Regor Processor & fan
ASUS M4N68T-M V2 AMD Socket AM3 Motherboard
Kingston KVR1333D3N9/2G 2GB PC3-10600 DDR3 ValueRam Desktop System Mem
Gigabyte GZ-M3-BPD GZ-M Mini Tower Black Case
Antec NEO-ECO-450C NeoPower Series Desktop Power Supply
Western Digital WD5001AALS 500GB Caviar Black HDD
Pioneer DVR-218L SATA DVD-RW Optical Drive
eVGA NVidia e-GeForce 8400 GS 512MB PCIe Video Graphics Card.

[bpark42]

...
wondering if this rig will be fine to play games like neo geo, capcom games, and the MK series.

also emulators like dreamcast so i can play MvC2 apparently the MAME version is no good?

AMD Athlon II X2 255 Socket AM3 Dual Core Regor Processor & fan
ASUS M4N68T-M V2 AMD Socket AM3 Motherboard
Kingston KVR1333D3N9/2G 2GB PC3-10600 DDR3 ValueRam Desktop System Mem
Gigabyte GZ-M3-BPD GZ-M Mini Tower Black Case
Antec NEO-ECO-450C NeoPower Series Desktop Power Supply
Western Digital WD5001AALS 500GB Caviar Black HDD
Pioneer DVR-218L SATA DVD-RW Optical Drive
eVGA NVidia e-GeForce 8400 GS 512MB PCIe Video Graphics Card.

Yes, that will be more than capable.