Quarters

[mh12]

i found this article linked in a thread about another topic
http://insomnia.ac/commentary/arcade_culture/

so that got me thinking a bit more about coins/tokens/credit buttons/free play/etc on home machines. i haven't seen much discussion of this topic here before (people just seem to choose one way in their plans or stick with what their used cab is capable of, and that's that)

the article writer is pretty extreme in his view, but he makes some good points. the way he lays out his Japan scenario is pretty funny.. but i lived there a while and it is basically true. of course that style of play definitely isn't for everyone.

i use quarters with my cab, and the coin box is going to stay locked until it's full (wonder how much that'll be). whenever i run low on quarters, i change $20 at a bank. so it's costing me money (albeit only temporarily) to play, and some of the challenge on unlimited-continue games is preserved.

i'm still not much good at most games. i'm working on 1 crediting Aero Fighters!

[CheffoJeffo]

Interesting read that I hadn't seen before -- thanks for the link.

While the author talks about Western arcades, consoles and their demise, he almost certainly didn't witness it first hand.

I do like his premise of the "no continue" rule (which is perhaps the clue that reveals that he wasn't there during the Western arcade boom since there were no continues back in the Golden Age).

Virtually every piece I have ever seen on the Western arcade phenomenon cites the arrival of games like Moon Patrol (e.g. games that allowed the player to continue) as the harbinger of death for the Western arcade. Ops were happy to suck in those extra quarters which, as the author points out, resulted in less additional play time (hence more profit), but did that damage the overall arcade experience ?

Interesting question and nice to see it addressed from a point of view that is completely different than mine.

FWIW, I am all quarters or free play (if the game supports it), but that is really just due to the fact that I got a REALLY good deal on a big box of quarter mechs some years ago. If I had gotten a similar deal on .990 mechs, I would be Santoro's best friend.

EDIT: And I pretty much suck at most arcade games, particularly the ones that I like the best. unless I am playing something like Metal Slug with one of the kids, I never continue (now that I think about it, other than my MAME rigs, the MVS and Rygar, I don't think I actually own a machine that has a continue option).

[DashRendar]

I've been debating on making a self imposed pay-to-play rule when I'm on my cab.

Having free-play just cheapens the experience (literally).  Part of the fun is earning your progress, and not dumping endless credits into a game that was never meant to be played like that.

You get better with the challenge.  Knowing that you have to pay-to-play forces you to play with more skill.

I still remember being a kid at the arcade.  One of the nearby arcades just got in this new game called Space Ace.  It was sweet!  But when I got there, everyone was all excited because there was this guy playing, who might be able to beat it on 50 cents.

I gladly gave up on the idea of playing to watch someone who earned the right to be using that game.  It was great to see a "master" at work!

[mh12]

While the author talks about Western arcades, consoles and their demise, he almost certainly didn't witness it first hand.

I do like his premise of the "no continue" rule (which is perhaps the clue that reveals that he wasn't there during the Western arcade boom since there were no continues back in the Golden Age).

right. he must be - like me - around late 20s. he pretty much ignores the Golden Age and goes from about Golden Axe onwards

[CheffoJeffo]

If you get a chance, Icons ep 208 is worth watching talking about the western arcade phenomenon.

ArcArc used to have it, but I see that it has been removed. Maybe there is a copy somewhere in the bowels of g4tv.com

[SavannahLion]

I guess he brings up some good points but totally misses out on others.

Japan has a greater appreciation for video games and (comic) art. There isn't this stigma attached to enjoying comic books or playing video games (though the stigma on video games is slowly eroding away as the gaming generation grows up, it's still there) like it is here in the U.S. My extended family had no idea I played video games for over twenty five years because my grandmother refused to mention anything about it to anyone. Even did things to prevent me from joining the kids whenever they moved away from the family get-together to play the NES/SNES. On my last gamedev project, I had sketchings of some of the game up in my office wall and it created such a stir (too demonic or too scary) I had to take them down.

The author and people who think like him are just going to have to accept that the U.S. and Japan have two different cultures. All the more supportive argument to have dedicated game developers for each country rather than globalization. I like my Japanese games, but I like my GTA and Half-Life too.

In any case, from what I can see, redemption games are becoming the norm in the U.S. and are easily outweighing typical arcade cabs. I did an informal count at Incredible Johns Pizza and I was getting something like 3-1 on the redemption games vs arcade cabs (not counting kiddie rides).  Last arcade I walked into wasn't even an arcade in a true sense, it was more like a damn fair. What's the redemption scene like in Japan?

[DJ_Izumi]

I think he's dead on that 'Natural Selection' plays a lot stronger in the arcades because, yes, $.25-$2.00 later you're either gonna say 'That sucked' or 'MORE! '.  The rest was overly harsh though.  Longer games flat out don't work in the arcades because they are built to be a pick up and play experience.

The arcades also have an advantage (or maybe a need) to make their games more like attractions.  Light gun rigs, ABS plastic mock up race cars and cockpits, pedaling a freaking BICYCLE to keep yourself in the air.  It's a lot of stuff that you can't quite do at home.

Though this was written in 2007 I disagree with his view on Xbox Live Arcade and I've found a lot of gold there in the form of arcade ports.  But I must admit most of the XBLA titles I play wern't on XBLA untill 2009.  I have light guns and arcade sticks and a racing wheel, I rather enjoy my arcade experience on the home console.

[Benevolance]

What's the redemption scene like in Japan?

Japanese arcades have entire floors devoted to redemption games. They usually call them Medal Games or something like that, and the prizes tend to be a lot more substantial.

Plus, Japan has pachinko, which is just a different type of redemption game. Because gambling is illegal, you trade any pachinko balls you win for 'prizes' at the parlour. The prizes are usually gaudy trinkets. Down the street is a little store that inexplicably loves to buy these gaudy trinkets for cash.

[romshark]

I use quarters on my cab. I collect spare change I find, and convert it up to quarters at work. Also means I can spend some at the real arcade.

A very interesting read. And something I'll have to remember if I get to go to Japan. I guess I've been guilty of doing this, even at the real arcade. I've beaten Police 911, Lost World, and HoTD2, but blew lots of money on each.

But some nights, I play Guilty Gear X Midnight Carnival on the Naomi in my cab on one credit before going to bed. And now that I think about it, it's more fun than blowing $5 just on the final boss of HoTD2 (which is more frustrating than fun).

[SavannahLion]

<snip>....and the prizes tend to be a lot more substantial.

Sometimes one of the prizes around here is usually whatever the latest console is (was a 360 probably a Wii now). How much more substantial could it get?

Plus, Japan has pachinko, which is just a different type of redemption game. Because gambling is illegal, you trade any pachinko balls you win for 'prizes' at the parlour. The prizes are usually gaudy trinkets. Down the street is a little store that inexplicably loves to buy these gaudy trinkets for cash.

Yeah, they crop up from time to time on Craigs. I forgot all about those.

[mh12]

Japan has a greater appreciation for video games and (comic) art. There isn't this stigma attached to enjoying comic books or playing video games

there is. it's different but there is.

(though the stigma on video games is slowly eroding away as the gaming generation grows up, it's still there)

yeah. it's interesting. since about the time everybody started playing GTA you could say the stigma is not much. in Japan it's still a geek thing, besides maybe the DS

[SavannahLion]

Japan has a greater appreciation for video games and (comic) art. There isn't this stigma attached to enjoying comic books or playing video games

there is. it's different but there is.

It's a radical difference then. Especially when you look at what's available to the individual markets. My Ex and I used to import scads of stuff from Japan because the U.S. market just had jack ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- when it came to anything remotely interesting.

(though the stigma on video games is slowly eroding away as the gaming generation grows up, it's still there)

yeah. it's interesting. since about the time everybody started playing GTA you could say the stigma is not much. in Japan it's still a geek thing, besides maybe the DS

Probably. I don't know if GTA (PSX) was really the marker (Do you mean GTA series on the PS2, or the granddaddy GTA series on the PSX? There's a difference) for the erosion on that video game stigma. Each and every console seemed to have a part in brushing that stigma aside.

[mh12]

Probably. I don't know if GTA (PSX) was really the marker (Do you mean GTA series on the PS2, or the granddaddy GTA series on the PSX? There's a difference) for the erosion on that video game stigma. Each and every console seemed to have a part in brushing that stigma aside.

oh, GTA3 for sure.

about the amount of *stuff*.. there are just more nerds in Japan
and they are well catered to

though the article i linked doesn't even really go into the issue of nerd-dom,
it does definitely point out that this whole thing is basically an issue of demographics. more specifically, population density, transportation, and disposable income.

but since this forum is mainly people who have these machines at home, it's worth discussing how we handle credits & why

[Epyx]

Having free-play just cheapens the experience (literally).  Part of the fun is earning your progress, and not dumping endless credits into a game that was never meant to be played like that.

You get better with the challenge.  Knowing that you have to pay-to-play forces you to play with more skill.

I have been doing the same by giving myself 8 quarters for each play session and using those for the games with no continues allowed.    A lot more fun than just ad nauseum crediting.

[RayB]

I didn't read the article, so here I am making a comment without reference but I'll make it anyways: Japan has a very dense population and small living spaces. People there typically always go out after work every day (or so a friend who lived in Tokyo for many years says). If you are going out every day, you're going to want a variety of places to hang out with your friends. I believe this has kept arcades alive there longer than here.

[mh12]

I didn't read the article, so here I am making a comment without reference but I'll make it anyways: Japan has a very dense population and small living spaces. People there typically always go out after work every day (or so a friend who lived in Tokyo for many years says). If you are going out every day, you're going to want a variety of places to hang out with your friends. I believe this has kept arcades alive there longer than here.

yes. however, the only groups i would see in their arcades were school kids. they're not very social places otherwise. and it's rare you see 2 player games on one cabinet. fighters are 2 cabs per game, back to back. i hate not even being able to see my opponent.

another thing: their games seem to be left on the default difficulty. i am not particularly good at fighters, but it was nothing for me to beat any Capcom fighter on one credit (which i never manage to do over here). it works pretty well for practice until someone challenges you.
or i could beat 2 or 3 levels on a shooter i'd never played.. as another example.

so i thought the article went way overboard blaming just the gamers for credit-feeding. operators pretty much forced it.

[HanoiBoi]

Paying a quarter for each time you play is a great idea.  With kids and parties, of course you'd have different guidelines.

About 15 years ago, when I got an Atari Classic games package for the PC (Asteroids, Battlezone, Centipede, etc.), I put a cup next to the monitor and was sure to pay myself 25 cents per play.  I did this for multiple reasons;

1) It made me want to try harder (you ever shoot pool by yourself?)
2) It made me not spend too much time in front of the PC
3) It allowed me to 'save' for my next 'toy', whatever that may have been
4) I was used to paying 25 cents for those games!

If I didn't get away from the PC, I saved more money.  If I didn't try harder, I saved more money.  Unfortunately, that didn't last long, but I do keep and still fill a 5 gallon water jug for loose coin.

With the arcade cab, I think it's a great way to get back into the swing of things.  Make the coin drop a special 'fund' (new spinner, trackball, LEDs, etc.)

I've recently added a coin door, but haven't hooked it up just yet.  I imagine I will be the only one using it for a while.  I can't expect the kids to climb down off the stools every time they need to credit up!


PS I tried reading that article, but it was too painful to get through as the guy was trying too hard, in my opinion.

[Benevolance]

Sometimes one of the prizes around here is usually whatever the latest console is (was a 360 probably a Wii now). How much more substantial could it get?

Yeah, it's usually consoles and games and 1/100 scale gundam replicas. One offered a TV. Heck, one of the 100Y coin op crane games was stacked with DSi's and PSPs when I was there last. I was waiting for my wife to finish shopping the store next door, and in the space of about 15 minutes, a dozen random businessmen tried their luck. None was very lucky.

It was a big contrast to the redemption prizes in my area. None of the arcades here offer consoles or even electronics for redemption prizes. It's typically the giant stuffed animals or other muck, or candy. Lots of candy.

[DJ_Izumi]

Xbox Live Arcade has taken an interesting approach to continues in some games.  I bought Ikaruga which allowed continues on Dreamcast and instead it kept scores by credit, not total score for all your credits in teh game but whe you used another credit it reset your score to zero.

But on XBLA it actually disallows the user to use online leaderboards unless you areplaying on 'default' settings which includes no continues at all.  If you wanna be on the boards for beating the game you have to do it in one credit.

After Burner Climax, which I drool for and is due in less than 18hrs, only allows leaderboard scores in 'Score Attack' mode not normal arcade mode.  I'm not sure how these modes differ but I'll report when I've played it tomorrow.