Arcade upgrades - joystick recommendations please

[Benevolance]

It's been a year or two since I finished my arcade cabinet. Like most first builds, I had to make a few guesses as to what I wanted. For the most part I'm happy with the choices, thanks largely to all the feedback and discussion from people on the forums.

But I've never been happy with the Happ 49-way joysticks I purchased. I bought the 49-way joysticks thinking that more was better and because I didn't really have a good idea what games would be popular when guests came over. I wanted options! But the performance of the joysticks is sub-par at best. I bought the upgrade grommets from Randy, and that improved the feel of the stick considerably, but I still don't think that the sticks are as responsive as they could/should be. I'm already planning to add some additional features to the cabinet, such as the Aimtrak modules. I figured I might as well upgrade my joysticks while I'm at it. Armed with hindsight, I know that the majority of the games I play use an 8-way joystick, and a select few use a 4-way stick.

Preamble aside, my question is: what kind of joystick gives a really, crisp response? The U360 garners a lot of positive feedback as a general purpose stick. Would a dedicated 8-way joystick be better? Worse? I'm looking for opinions and recommendations.

Finally, I've got two GP-WIZ49 interfaces already installed. I'm happy with them. Will I need to replace it if I replace the joysticks or can I wire the new joysticks up to those existing boards?

[Epyx]

Sounds like how I felt with my first cab and the Mag Stick Plus...never enjoyed that stick.  With my bartop I switched to competition joys...player one set to 8 way and player two to 4 way for solo play.

With the current project I am using Sanwa JLWs and will do the same...player 1 set to 8 way and player 2 to 4 way...switching when required if company is over.  To me its been feel over functionality so far...it has to feel right and then I worry about functionality...so far the competitions and Sanwa's feel the best.

[severdhed]

personally, i love my u360s...i haven't found a game yet that they don't perform amazingly on. 

if you don't want to spend that much money and don't mind the clutter of extra sticks, i'd go with two 8way happ competitions, and an Ultimarc J-Stik (sanwa JLW) balltop as a dedicated 4way

[mvsfan]

It's been a year or two since I finished my arcade cabinet. Like most first builds, I had to make a few guesses as to what I wanted. For the most part I'm happy with the choices, thanks largely to all the feedback and discussion from people on the forums.

But I've never been happy with the Happ 49-way joysticks I purchased. I bought the 49-way joysticks thinking that more was better and because I didn't really have a good idea what games would be popular when guests came over. I wanted options! But the performance of the joysticks is sub-par at best. I bought the upgrade grommets from Randy, and that improved the feel of the stick considerably, but I still don't think that the sticks are as responsive as they could/should be. I'm already planning to add some additional features to the cabinet, such as the Aimtrak modules. I figured I might as well upgrade my joysticks while I'm at it. Armed with hindsight, I know that the majority of the games I play use an 8-way joystick, and a select few use a 4-way stick.

Preamble aside, my question is: what kind of joystick gives a really, crisp response? The U360 garners a lot of positive feedback as a general purpose stick. Would a dedicated 8-way joystick be better? Worse? I'm looking for opinions and recommendations.

Finally, I've got two GP-WIZ49 interfaces already installed. I'm happy with them. Will I need to replace it if I replace the joysticks or can I wire the new joysticks up to those existing boards?

Honestly, the 49-ways are almost proprietary in design. They were designed for a few newer games like Nfl blitz that actually get the benefit out of using them.

On older games and even other newer games that werent designed with the 49 in mind, performance varies but often isnt as good as a 8 way if thats what it was designed with.

now, i have heard great things about the Ultra 360s, since they were designed with Mame in mind, and not a particular Oem hardware.

personally, for me ive found that the most versatile joystick is an 8 way Rotary using druins rotary interface.

that setup has all the benefit of the best 8 way, and you can also play Caliber 50 and Ikari warrior type games.

my opinion is that an 8 way rotary setup with mame in mind, takes care of the controls for thousands of games and is the most versatile.

Also, i have yet to try out an ultra 360, so i wont say its better or worse.

[Ginsu Victim]

Honestly, the 49-ways are almost proprietary in design. They were designed for a few newer games like Nfl blitz that actually get the benefit out of using them.

Sinistar, Pigskin 621 AD, Blaster, and Arch Rivals used a 49-way.

[SammyWI]

I've really tried to like the U360, but so far I just don't like it.  It's just has a mushy feel to it that I don't like.  Tried the stock spring and the stiffer spring, tried greasing the ball joint - still don't like it.  It's fine for an analog input, but for any 8, 4 or 2 way game, I just don't like it.  I see a lot of recommendations for the U360 - just wanted to play a little devil's advocate.

I have a Mag Stik Plus that I'm going to try in a test CP next.  There is a lot of personal opinion involved in this.  I was surprised to find that I preferred a bat handle style over the classic ball top.  It's not what I grew up with, but I like it now.  If you can try before you buy, that would be ideal.  Otherwise - there's always the option of reselling.  

[ubiquityman]

There's a number of games that can take advantage of an analog joystick.
For example:  
Paperboy, Gauntlet Legends, Spy Hunter, Star Wars, driving games, etc.

As for the U360, like SammyWi, 
I also have a stiffer spring and did apply silicone spray to the ball/socket.
It's not a perfect joystick, but it's the best one I've tried.
I think it's a pretty good product and I would recommend it.

SammyWi,
It sounds very like you prefer the micro switch joysticks.
Have you tried putting in a set of Senwa micro-switches into the U360?
(you might need to have a restrictor plate installed to do this.)
This will provide the click "feel" you are potentially looking for.
We can leave the micro-switches disconnected so they they are only there to provide the positive "click", OR
you could connect them to a key controller so that you can configure 4-way and 8-way games to the micro-switch outputs and analog games to the U360 output.

It's on my list of things to try, but that's the closest that I can think of to having the best of both worlds, without installing two separate joysticks per play.

[Ginsu Victim]

I've really tried to like the U360, but so far I just don't like it.  It's just has a mushy feel to it that I don't like.

Mushy? Ever used an old beat up Wico with a wore out grommet?

I've never felt anything "mushy" about my U360s.

[CheffoJeffo]

Damned kids and their bitching about joysticks ... mushy this, responsive that ... meh ... in my day we used Wicos and were happy to have them!

Wait a minute -- we still are!

Wico FTW!

 

[Benevolance]

Thank you for the suggestions, guys!

I don't really want to go beyond 1 joystick per player on the CP. I'd rather build an additional cabinet to support a different setup. But I think an 8-way will do nicely.

On the Happ competition joysticks, is there a physical restrictor plate similar to the Sanwa's that enables the 4-way/8-way modes? How easy is it to switch between? My current joysticks were top-mounted, if that makes any difference. Is it the kind of thing where I need to remove the joystick from the CP, or is just having access to the bottom of the joystick in the CP box sufficient?

Finally, does anyone know if I'd need to buy a new control interface to replace my GPWiz-49s if I buy new joysticks?

[CheffoJeffo]

Finally, does anyone know if I'd need to buy a new control interface to replace my GPWiz-49s if I buy new joysticks?

Yes, you will (unless you go with another set of 49-ways).

[Benevolance]

Cool, thanks!

[SammyWI]

I guess my point was that different people may have different preferences.  I like the U360 as an analog stick, but most games I play are not analog.     I just don't like it as a switch based stick replacement.

Add micro switches to a U360?  Not really the issue for me.  I don't like the feel around the center of throw the most.  Still experimenting to find what I like best. 

I don't mean to badmouth the U360.  Lot's of people prefer it as a general joystick and I think it's definitely a quality piece.  (I plan to keep mine for an analog stick at least.)  It just may not be the right choice for everyone. 

[RandyT]

Honestly, the 49-ways are almost proprietary in design. They were designed for a few newer games like Nfl blitz that actually get the benefit out of using them.

On older games and even other newer games that werent designed with the 49 in mind, performance varies but often isnt as good as a 8 way if thats what it was designed with.

Honestly, this sounds like inexperience talking.

The 49-ways deliver a great gaming experience with a GP-Wiz49.  In 8-way mode, they are every bit as good as a WICO grommet stick, even better since they use pretty much the same grommet and optical sensing instead of leaf switches.

In 4-way mode, they do an admirable job (better than any unrestricted 8-way).  But, without physical restriction, NO STICK is going to feel like the one attached to your favorite Pac-Man machine.

I am fortunate enough to be able to have any stick on my cabinet, regardless of cost.  I use the 49-ways.  IMHO, nothing else is as versatile and authentic feeling as these (with good rubber grommets, not the neoprene version HAPP moved to.)

I think the OP would probably be happiest with a "twitch" stick, based on the comments.  Something with a short throw (meaning a physical stop that restricts motion) and fast switch actuation.  Switchable physical restriction sounds like a further desire.  There are a couple of options out there, one of which is the Omni-Stik.  These have a very different feel than the 49-ways (short and precise), which some prefer.  It also offers switchable physical restriction.

Depending on how many extra inputs are available, the GP-Wiz49's can continue to be used just fine.  There were many more inputs on those interfaces than most used (because the first version only interfaces with one 49-way), so pick 4 of those extras and you can connect them to a switch based stick.  You just need to change the control assignments in the apps you use and you should be good to go.

RandyT

[ubiquityman]

I guess my point was that different people may have different preferences.  I like the U360 as an analog stick, but most games I play are not analog.     I just don't like it as a switch based stick replacement.

Add micro switches to a U360?  Not really the issue for me.  I don't like the feel around the center of throw the most.  Still experimenting to find what I like best. 

You could go with option 2:
Add the microswitchs and hook them up to a keyboard controller and have the best of both worlds.
The feel around the center of the throw should feel just like a Sanwa once you add the switches.
(The entire joystick should feel just like a Sanwa.)
The extra spring from the pesudo leafs of the microswitches will give it a bit more return to center.

Now this applies only if you like the feel of the Sanwa JLW joysticks.
Most people do, but some people prefer the Happ.
(Personally, I like the Sanwas)

[Ginsu Victim]

There's nowhere to put microswitches on a U360. If you're going to want that, just get a Sanwa JLW.

[DrumAnBass]

Damned kids and their bitching about joysticks ... mushy this, responsive that ... meh ... in my day we used Wicos and were happy to have them!

Wait a minute -- we still are!

Wico FTW!

 

Yah just a note on the Sanwa sticks - they are very "clicky" and playing on a Sanwa JLF is a very different experience than playing with a classic Wico leaf stick. Even Happ Supers feel less "clicky" than the Sanwa JLF. I haven't tried the U360 or the 49 way sticks however.

But an original Wico Leaf stick to me = vintage gaming nirvana.

[ubiquityman]

The Happ comp feels pretty clicky too.
The U360 however is completely clickless.
If you like the Wico leaf sticks, the U360 is closer to that than the Happ or JLW. (I've not tried the JLFs)

[severdhed]

joysticks are just one of those things that depends alot on personal preference.  some are short throw, some are long throw, some are stiff, some are loose..etc. everyone has their own opinion on what they like, and it is very hard to tell what joystick is good based on someone elses opinion.  i have used several joysticks between my cabinets and my friends including:

x-arcade  ( i had no problems with these sticks, the throw is good on them and they work great as 8way sticks, they only come in black)
happ competition (in my friend's cabinet, throw is similar to x-arcade, i really like these as 8way sticks, they come in lots of colors and they are inexpensive)
sanwa JLW (in my friends cabinet as a dedicated 4way balltop, I absolutely love this as a 4way stick, i have not tried it in 8way mode, but i dare you to find a stick that feels better in 4way mode)
Wico 8 way leaf(with worn out grommets) (these came in an old cab i picked up, i didn't like them at all.  they required too much effort to move, way too stiff...i hate these sticks)
Wico 4 way leaf (NOS with really stiff grommets) ( i bought one of thse NOS from the guy i got my Donkey Kong cab from, it was even worse than the 8way, after 10 minutes of donkey kong, my arm was tired...i hate these sticks.)
Betson 4way space invaders stick (bought this new from betson, balltop is small, and the throw is a little too long, i dont really like this stick at all, but it is in my DK cab now because it was the only other 4way stick i have, and it is better than the Wico)
Ultrastick 360 (these are the sticks in my main MAME cab.  i have the medium springs on the standard bat top shafts.  they feel great.  they feel different than the happ comp sticks, but work every bit as well in 8way mode, they work suprisingly well as 4way sticks, even without physical restriction, and they absolutely rock for Qbert. )

it all depends on what you are trying to accomplish.

i originally had a frankenpanel on my 2player mame cabinet with two x-arcade 8ways, the betson 4 way, trackball and spinner.  it was just too cluttered.  so i cut it down to two U360s and a trackball.  on my DK cabinet, it is set up to run mame and all the games that play well on a vertical monitor witha  4way stick and 1 button. 

my friend has a 4 player showcase style cabinet with a large panel, so i think the happ competitions and the JLW 4way are the best way to go for him, since he has the space.

i plan on buying a JLW to replace the Betson stick in my DK cabinet here shortly.

the truth  is that there are others here that swear by Wico leaf sticks...to them, they are the best sticks you can get, i personally can't stand them.  so you need to take everything with a grain of salt.  i say if you are looking to keep a clean looking panel and only 1 stick per player...you can't go wrong with the U360.  they may not be the best stick for every single game, but as far as I am concerned, they are the best option if you want 1 stick that can do it all.

[CheffoJeffo]

Wico 8 way leaf(with worn out grommets) (these came in an old cab i picked up, i didn't like them at all.  they required too much effort to move, way too stiff...i hate these sticks)
Wico 4 way leaf (NOS with really stiff grommets) ( i bought one of thse NOS from the guy i got my Donkey Kong cab from, it was even worse than the 8way, after 10 minutes of donkey kong, my arm was tired...i hate these sticks.)

If you were playing on Wicos with a WORN-OUT grommet and thought they were stiff, then you really need to exercise your wrists some more (and, based on the typical demographic here, that would be surprising!)

But, the underlying thought remains the same and is accurate ... I would never want to try to set a record in Donkey Kong using anything other than 4-way Ninty sticks.

I am surprised that there is a "4 Way Space Invaders" stick, since Space Invaders didn't originally have a joystick and was a 2-way game, but would be interested in hearing more about this stick. Mayhap it was designed for replacement use in cocktails or the like. Pics would be very cool.

severdhed -- if you have Wicos that you don't want, I'll (along with eleventy12! other people) will be happy to take them off of your hands.

 

[Epyx]

then you really need to exercise your wrists some more (and, based on the typical demographic here, that would be surprising!)

Lol...wasn't sure what you meant here...had to read it a few times... 

[severdhed]

Wico 8 way leaf(with worn out grommets) (these came in an old cab i picked up, i didn't like them at all.  they required too much effort to move, way too stiff...i hate these sticks)
Wico 4 way leaf (NOS with really stiff grommets) ( i bought one of thse NOS from the guy i got my Donkey Kong cab from, it was even worse than the 8way, after 10 minutes of donkey kong, my arm was tired...i hate these sticks.)

If you were playing on Wicos with a WORN-OUT grommet and thought they were stiff, then you really need to exercise your wrists some more (and, based on the typical demographic here, that would be surprising!)

But, the underlying thought remains the same and is accurate ... I would never want to try to set a record in Donkey Kong using anything other than 4-way Ninty sticks.

I am surprised that there is a "4 Way Space Invaders" stick, since Space Invaders didn't originally have a joystick and was a 2-way game, but would be interested in hearing more about this stick. Mayhap it was designed for replacement use in cocktails or the like. Pics would be very cool.

severdhed -- if you have Wicos that you don't want, I'll (along with eleventy12! other people) will be happy to take them off of your hands.

 

i like to keep my hand still and manipulate the joystick with just my finger tips, the wico was too stiff to do that, i felt like i had to use my arm to move the stick. i just like a joystick with a light feel to it.  I have not used a Nintendo 4way stick, i'm tempted to get a repro to use in my DK cab, but with the cost of them, i'm afraid i wont like it..i know i love the JLW.

here is the space invaders stick..

http://www.betson.com/products/parts/IMP-47-9075-07


i'm not sure why it would be called a space invaders stick, or even why i bought it. (i just didn't know any better back then i guess).  i wouldn't recommend this stick though...it kinda sucks.

[CheffoJeffo]

Interesting ... kinda looks like



Happs MsPac/Galaga stick.

And, yes, you probably want a Ninty stick -- they were designed to be played exactly as you describe.

[DashRendar]

then you really need to exercise your wrists some more (and, based on the typical demographic here, that would be surprising!)

Oh no you di`int!     

[ubiquityman]

There's nowhere to put microswitches on a U360. If you're going to want that, just get a Sanwa JLW.

The U360 plastic is the same piece as the Sanwa as long as the U360 is fitted with the restrictor plate.
Why wouldn't the microswitches fit?

The advantage is that you get both analog and binary switches in one package.
The downside is that the switch clicking might give false user feedback (feel and sound) when in analog mode.

[Benevolance]

I think Randy summed up my joystick needs well. I want something fast and twitchy! Also, Randy, thanks for the feedback on the GPwiz49. There are indeed a lot of additional inputs. I shall put them to good use. As I said previously, I've been really pleased with the interfaces.

When people say the joysticks are 'clicky' do you mean that you can feel the microswitch trigger on the joystick movement? Or do you just hear the clicks when the joystick triggers? Does anyone know how the Omni-sticks feel compared with the Happ competition joysticks and the Sanwa JLW's? Epyx, you've played on both the happ competition and sanwa jlw's right? Is there much difference in the feel?

[ubiquityman]

I think Randy summed up my joystick needs well. I want something fast and twitchy! Also, Randy, thanks for the feedback on the GPwiz49. There are indeed a lot of additional inputs. I shall put them to good use. As I said previously, I've been really pleased with the interfaces.

When people say the joysticks are 'clicky' do you mean that you can feel the microswitch trigger on the joystick movement? Or do you just hear the clicks when the joystick triggers? Does anyone know how the Omni-sticks feel compared with the Happ competition joysticks and the Sanwa JLW's? Epyx, you've played on both the happ competition and sanwa jlw's right? Is there much difference in the feel?

Clicky for me means I can both hear and feel the microswitches.  However, after a few seconds, the brain will start to ignore it, even though the clicks can continue to provide useful feedback.

On a 4 player CP, the two players directly in front of the screen don't need the feedback as much.
The two players on the far left and right side (because they are at an angle to the screen) will find the clicks more functional.
The clicks provide ergonomic cues without the player thinking about it.
It helps them adjust their orientation to the joystick (whether they realize it or not).

If you haven't tried it already, try Street Fighter II with a joystick set to an 8-way restrictor plate.
Works pretty good.
Next, try to play pacman on that stick.  
It's not very playable IMHO.  
That's the weakness of the 8-way joystick.  Twitchy yes, but not very compatible with 4-way games.  
You could go with 2 joysticks, an 8-way and a 4-way, but that's more CP space (which IMHO comes at quite a premium in aesthetic cost).

That's why a U360 is such a good choice.  
With additional switches installed, you get all the twitchyness you need (if you required it).  
( No other analog joystick I've seen has the ability to install switches. )

The benefits (with or without switches) are
- compatibility with 8/4/2-way games (for 4 way games you wouldn't use the switch outputs, but rather the U360 analog output).
- saves real-estate because one does not need both a 8-way and a 4-way joystick
- compatible with analog joystick games
- MAME takes care of the mapping in most cases.

The Cons:
- cost (about $40-$50 more than a regular switch based joystick when all is said and done.)
- non-clicky unless you have the switches installed.  (installing switches requires the restrictor plate)

FYI, I have both the Happ Comp and Sanwa JLW.  
The Happ is a bit sloppy in construction compared to the Sanwa, but in play, the difference is less.
I prefer the JLW, but the Happ is not bad.  Also, considering the Happ is about 1/2 the price, it's a worthy note.

[Epyx]

Epyx, you've played on both the happ competition and sanwa jlw's right? Is there much difference in the feel?

There is most definitely a difference.  It is very subjective of course but here is how I explain the difference...the throw on both the comps and JLWs is similiar...not the difference you get between the Happs Comp (long) and Magstick Plus (short).  The feel of those throws is where I experience the biggest difference.

For example, the Competitions have a springy long throw feel..springy on the push and pull back to center. The JLWs have a less springy feel on the push/pull, even though the throw is similar in distance. The engagement with the microswitches (due to the restrictor) seems less forced on the JLWs...its less of a search more of a guided engagement with the  microswitch.  

To me the JLWs destroy the Magsticks which felt "artificial"...centering/egagement was mechanical and the throw way too short (particularly evident on 8 way games).

So in summary...to me I like the comps still very much but the JLWs give me the nice 4 way with a rotation of the restrictor plate (in fact I will leave player 2 as 4 way for solo play) and I feel give me a better 8 way game precision wise.

I would agree with Ubiquityman on most of his counts as well as we seem to agree on the sticks.  His pros/cons are more black and white whereas my comparison are more how I feel subjectively about the sticks.

[VanillaGorilla]

I just bought 5 49-ways. Where in the heck can I get an interface? The GP-Wiz 49 has been out of stock forever  Im surprised to see randy pimping the 49-way, even though no interface is available? What are my options? BTW Randy, my Tron handle is awesome, I modded a Wico 8-way leaf base to mate it to, and it came out great!

[Paul Olson]

I haven't used any of the all in one sticks, but here are my thoughts on the ones I have tried:

Magstick +: Way too short of a throw; I hated it. I tried to get used to it for a little while, but it just wasn't happening.

Nintendo 4-way: If you like DK, this stick is an absolute must have. No other stick will feel right. The Wico Leaf is playable though.

Wico Leaf 4-way: The absolute best 4-way stick. Nothing even comes close.

Wico Leaf 8-way: The best all-around 8-way stick. Mine are a little stiffer than I like, but a new grommet will fix it. I have just been too lazy to install it. Amazing difference on the 4-way.

Happ Competition: This is the best stick for fighters. This is what a lot of the fighters used, and it feels right. I haven't found any non-fighting game that I would use these in over the wicos.

Monroe Stick: Another game specific stick like the DK stick. If you like Gyruss, there is no substitute.

Happ Reunion Stick: Hate it. Probably my least favorite of them all. It doesn't feel right for any game. Anyone want to buy one?

Happ Super: Nice that they can be either 4 or 8-way, but nothing special otherwise. There are better choices for both.

I have a ton of other sticks that I haven't mounted and tested yet. Pacman, Galaga, Rotaries, 49-ways...that is all I can think of at the moment. A lot of the 4-way and 2-way sticks will be mounted on panels someday, but honestly, the wico 4-way is great for all of the games that use them, just not the best for DK.

I don't know what to do on the 49ways. It seems like I have been waiting for the new version of the GPWiz49 for many years now; not sure how long it has actually been though. I think my 49-ways have been sitting on the shelf for at least 3 years now.

[DeLuSioNal29]

I am fortunate enough to be able to have any stick on my cabinet, regardless of cost.  I use the 49-ways.  IMHO, nothing else is as versatile and authentic feeling as these (with good rubber grommets, not the neoprene version HAPP moved to.)

RandyT

The trouble is, the GP-Wiz49 is no longer available.  I've been trying to get my hands on some for my four 49-ways sitting in my arcade parts bin.

D