The Antikythera Mechanism

[drventure]

Don't know if any of you guys are interested in this kind of thing, but if so, Scientific  American has a great writeup on the Antikythera Mechanism in the Nov issue.



http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=decoding-an-ancient-computer

If you don't know what it is, it's a device (or rather the remains of a device) found in 1901 that none knew what the heck it did for years.

Eventually, the thing was carbon dated to the first century BC.

Basically, the authors of the article have been working to reconstruct what this thing did and finally were able to with the help of some cutting edge scanning xray equipment called the Blade Runner (no kidding) that's been newly developed.

Essentially, its an astronomical computer, made out of brass gears (hence at least part of my interest!) and enclosed (or was enclosed) in a wood box with brass dials and gauges to read the phases of the moon, sun, earth orbits, and various time cycles (like the cycles of the olympic games, etc).

No other instrument of its complexity has been discovered back that far. The earliest next example comes in around 1100ad, more than 1000 years later!

Just the description of what these guys went through to figure out this one part of the mechanism that consisted of the weird offset pin and slot driven gearing set makes you wonder at the kind of geniuses roaming around the ancient Mediterranean.

Anyway fascinating stuff. Sorry, i just realized the article is just a stub

Here's a site with a lot more info

http://www.antikythera-mechanism.gr/

[Epyx]

Thanks Drventure...supposed to be developing design documents this morning and got caught up reading the wiki entry and some other articles on the Antikythera device. I remember reading about this device years ago. It always amazes me how some in the ancient world were so enlightened and forward thinking and yet had none of the "resources" we take so for granted today.

[ChadTower]

I took a cog railway up a mountain in July.   

[shardian]

That is impressive, but our modern brethren put man on the moon with a slide rule. Epic win! 


Just kidding - that piece of machinery is magnificently amazing. It makes my brain hurt to even try to imagine how that machinery came about. My best guess is that it was a lifetime commitment by a very dedicated intellectual of the times. It also humbles me, because the fact that a society amazing enough to build stuff like that decays and dies fairly quickly. Really puts the good ol' US of A society in perspective huh?

[drventure]

@pbj
I think Epyx was saying for someone to come up with stuff like this back 2000 years ago, without many of the modern conveniences we tend to take for granted, like even a pencil, that's impressive.

I mean, it's impressive to consider what Charles Babbage accomplished with just mechanical linkages, and then the clock and watchmakers before him, and those guys were in the 13'th through the 19'th century, more than a millennium later.

Pull that forward to today and try to project out 1600 years from now. everything you come up with would just seem like magic now.

Fun stuff, though.

Sorry for the distraction Epyx  

@shardian
Right, they put a man on the moon with less computer power than what's in a 10$ calculator at Walmart. The progression in the last hundred years hasn't just been exponential it seems...

The next hundred years could be real interesting!

[Epyx]

Meh, I beg to differ.

Look around you - how much will still be here in 100 years?

See any horseless carriages around?  Steam engines?

Technology and culture shifts - nobody keeps around the old stuff.

Ya you misunderstood me pbj...im actually in agreement with you

I think Epyx was saying for someone to come up with stuff like this back 2000 years ago, without many of the modern conveniences we tend to take for granted, like even a pencil, that's impressive.

Bingo...and np, distraction mucho appreciated

Right, they put a man on the moon with less computer power than what's in a 10$ calculator at Walmart. The progression in the last hundred years hasn't just been exponential it seems...

Yep, I love to argue this with Moon landing conspiracy folks...getting a man to the moon is not the most difficult part...getting him off the planet is...once youve done that you are in the hands of mathematics.  So really if you believe we have satellites in space, a space station etc...then the moon landing is not a stretch at all.

And aside from all that...you think the Russians would have let the Americans live that lie down?

[drventure]

What, you believe all that moon landing stuff?

Next I guess you'll tell me NASA launched two robots, landed them on mars and has had 'em running around for 3 years when they were only scheduled to work for 3 months, or something ridiculous like that!

 

[Epyx]

There is NO way they landed robots on mars...  
 

[danny_galaga]

Yep, I love to argue this with Moon landing conspiracy folks...getting a man to the moon is not the most difficult part...getting him off the planet is...once youve done that you are in the hands of mathematics.  So really if you believe we have satellites in space, a space station etc...then the moon landing is not a stretch at all.

And aside from all that...you think the Russians would have let the Americans live that lie down?

Hehe. Aint that the truth. Anyone read 'From the Earth to the Moon'? Did you feel bummed at the end when you realise that the guys on the moon aren't coming back and now have to rely on supplies sent to them?

Oh, and  i remember this machine. Thanks for the updates (",) It was one of the things that nitwit Eric Von Daniken used to point to as being evidence that aliens visited the ancients and taught them stuff. Stuff like how to drag and pile rocks (pyramids, stone henge), how to make things from brass (this mechanism). Because of course if you were an alien, that would be the most high tech stuff you could show a man  

[Epyx]

Because of course if you were an alien, that would be the most high tech stuff you could show a man

Lol exactly...I love Sagan's take on alien abduction which goes along the same lines. He basically stated that the type of "human biological" experiments being carried out on the "abductees" would be the technological equivalent of humans resorting back to medieval medicinal beliefs like "the theory of humours".

He stated he would be much more likely to believe the abduction tales had any of them actually brought something back with them of alien origin.

But, common sense tells you that if aliens made it this far through the vastness of space they would have the technology to not only elude us but would have knowledge well beyond what we can even imagine through Science Fiction...a bit beyond MASH hospital abduction experiments lol.

[Ed_McCarron]

Water ice was conclusively found in the mid-90s, it's beyond old news.

Lemon or Blue Raspberry?

[RayB]

Mars rover is also a hoax! Here is leaked proof of their filming in a Hollywood studio!

[Epyx]

The problem with Sagan's take is that we could not possibly understand the aliens' motivation.  

How do you think lab rats feel about the way we treat them?  Think it makes any sense from their perspective?

Why would aliens show us technology that we would be unable to replicate?  etc.


(and, no I don't think aliens are abducting us)

Agreed, absolutely. I was off slightly in what he said...he actually states it closer to the way you've presented it.

Mars rover is also a hoax! Here is leaked proof of their filming in a Hollywood studio!

ROFL...man I laughed hard.  Nice one Rayb

[Silas (son of Silas)]

yet had none of the "resources" we take so for granted today.

Meh, I beg to differ.

Look around you - how much will still be here in 100 years?

There's loads of old stuff around us if that's what you're into. I hope to still own the car that's in my garage when it reaches 100 which (relatively speaking) is not that long to wait. My early demise is the only thing I can think of that would stop me celebrating it's 100th.

 

[Ummon]

1. Geometry was around 2500 years ago. There's an old story, which is actually in Cosmos, about one of the guys back then that noticed the shadows pillars separated a bit from each other indicated a round world. They could do killer stone work, and could forge things out of metal. (They had the elements of steam power, too - I think I also read this in Cosmos.)

2. some of these examples, though, do require extraordinary knowledge, which could've easily been passed down by non-terrestrial creatures.

[danny_galaga]

1. Geometry was around 2500 years ago. There's an old story, which is actually in Cosmos, about one of the guys back then that noticed the shadows pillars separated a bit from each other indicated a round world. They could do killer stone work, and could forge things out of metal. (They had the elements of steam power, too - I think I also read this in Cosmos.)

2. some of these examples, though, do require extraordinary knowledge, which could've easily been passed down by non-terrestrial creatures.

Or perhaps it's just further proof that we were smarter earlier than we give ourselves credit for. And that there was a good reason that part of Western history is called the 'dark ages' 

[RayB]

Ummon, you and Xiau2 should get together. 

It's not frikkin space aliens! Geesh. The average joe today is no more "intelligent" than the average joe from any given period in the last thousands of years. THe difference is the amount of knowledge and the tools at our disposal that create this illusion. The difference is access to education, being able to read, and not being killed or imprisoned by religious or superstitious ruling class.  Also what we achieve is always built upon previous knowledge and achievements, so of course this progress is exponential and seems especially accellerated in the last 100 years.

Imagine Einstein born 2000 years ago to a peasant or slave class family and never learning to read because the priority is daily survival. The assumption may be that a "genius" rises above all and achieves greatness, but this isn't the case. The few geniuses we've had in ancient (and not so ancient) times thrived thanks to ruling class benefactors. Just think how many great minds never were thanks to being killed by a life of slavery, or by religious or superstitious zealots.

Here is a timely perfect example:
http://www.ted.com/talks/tom_wujec_demos_the_13th_century_astrolabe.html

[danny_galaga]

Here is a timely perfect example:
http://www.ted.com/talks/tom_wujec_demos_the_13th_century_astrolabe.html

That was a good little lecture (",) Thanks for the link.

[drventure]

Thanks for the link.

Indeed. I'd always wondered how astrolabes work. Guess I could have looked it up but that vid explained it nicely.

I'd sure love to have one of those replicas!

[ChadTower]

Or perhaps it's just further proof that we were smarter earlier than we give ourselves credit for. And that there was a good reason that part of Western history is called the 'dark ages' 

That's my take on all of this.  Human technology, and intelligence, was moving along pretty smoothly for a long time.  Then religion came into popularity.  Do the math on the timelines from then on.

[Epyx]

NT

[HaRuMaN]

Time to move this to P&R?

[Silas (son of Silas)]

Time to move this to P&R?

+1 maybe?

[Epyx]

Rather than move a post about science to the black abyss...I deleted my post

[Ummon]

Ummon, you and Xiau2 should get together. 

It's not frikkin space aliens! Geesh. The average joe today is no more "intelligent" than the average joe...

Sounds like you're arguing for what I said, although I didn't say space aliens.

That's my take on all of this.  Human technology, and intelligence, was moving along pretty smoothly for a long time.  Then religion came into popularity.  Do the math on the timelines from then on.

According to D_G, that's only considering the western world in the last thousand years. According to yours, that's only the last....maybe three thousand.

[ChadTower]

According to D_G, that's only considering the western world in the last thousand years. According to yours, that's only the last....maybe three thousand.

Three thousand years puts us not all that from from the time of this device, relatively.

[Ummon]

According to science, the complexity and craft of the device was beyond the capability of civilization. Regardless, I was talking about stuff much older.

[Epyx]

According to science, the complexity and craft of the device was beyond the capability of civilization. Regardless, I was talking about stuff much older.

Not the case in most science journals...where did you read this?

[Ummon]

According to science, the complexity and craft of the device was beyond the capability of civilization. Regardless, I was talking about stuff much older.

Not the case in most science journals...where did you read this?

Regarding the A device, it's what I remember on the show I saw. The other things, I'm pretty sure there's no question they were beyond the capacity of pre-20th century civilisation.