The NEW Build Your Own Arcade Controls
Main => Everything Else => Topic started by: ChadTower on June 17, 2005, 03:13:42 pm
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Okay, with all of the fuel advantages, as well as a completely revitalized farming industry it would create, along with the fact that we wouldn't have to come up with entirely new automotive technologies to accomodate the fuel...
...why is biodiesel not being pushed harder by anyone? What am I missing?
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...why is biodiesel not being pushed harder by anyone? What am I missing?
The part where those in charge of fuel lose billions. And the part where they bought the gov.
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I wasn't really aware of it myself
here's the web site:
http://www.biodiesel.org/
there was also something on CNN today about hydrogen fuel cell cars by 2010.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/AUTOS/06/17/toyota_fuel_cell.reut/index.html
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I wasn't really aware of it myself
here's the web site:
http://www.biodiesel.org/
there was also something on CNN today about hydrogen fuel cell cars by 2010.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/AUTOS/06/17/toyota_fuel_cell.reut/index.html
Yeah, though nothing about how much it will cost or how much the fuel will cost.
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The part where those in charge of fuel lose billions. And the part where they bought the gov.
I'm not thinking about the gov't, I'm thinking about the lobbyists whose interests would benefit geometrically from major use of biodiesel.
Who are the lobbist going to convince?
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The Veggie Van (http://www.biodieselamerica.org/biosite/index.php?id=3,0,0,1,0,0)
I read about this a few years ago, and I am surprised that it took thislong to surface as a national issue.
I am surprised the McDonald's isn't getting behind this. Imagine how their sales would jump if everyone started driving cars that smelled like french fries! ;D
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All they have to do is make it known
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I think it all starts with the automotive industry. they would have to start creating diesel versions of vehicles. Then gas stations would have to make it availible.
I don't think anything will happen with bio diesel with our current government, espicially with our presidents alliances with the saudi government. I don't feel the have a great care for the environment. But biodiesel would have a huge impact on out economy. steadier work and crops for our nations farmers. processing jobs. not to mention we will be keeping money "in country" as opposed to sending it overseas to contries who don't have the greatest reputation.
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Perhaps the biggest impact on our country would be no dependence on foreign oil. That could change the politics of the entire world.
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Perhaps the biggest impact on our country would be no dependence on foreign oil. That could change the politics of the entire world.
Yes, yes it would. And I would love it.
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Production of this stuff is so clean that the byproduct of converting beans/used vegetable oil into biodiesel is SOAP.
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Perhaps the biggest impact on our country would be no dependence on foreign oil. That could change the politics of the entire world.
Yes, yes it would. And I would love it.
I would love that too!!
I think the goverment plays a big role in determining what can and can't be done. A small example I know of is that where I live it is basically illegal to provide your own energy. If you do you still have to pay for what you produce as if it were coming from the local energy supplier. They reason they claim is that they are providing back up power so you still need them. I don't remember the details of how this is done nationally but I think the role is substantial. And I think enough money from the current holders of the liquid can prevent progress. I hope I am wrong and the public would suddenly prove it, but I think we are stuck.
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...why is biodiesel not being pushed harder by anyone? What am I missing?
Apparently, you missed the entire 2004 election. That was your chance. Biodiesel was an integral part of Kerry's energy plan.
Boston.Com Link (http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/kerry/articles/2004/08/06/kerry_offers_10_year_plan_for_us_energy_independence/)
You really think anyone has a chance of pushing an alternative energy plan through this WH? I'm sure it'd make nice toilet paper for Bush and Co.
Who'd you vote for?
mrC
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...why is biodiesel not being pushed harder by anyone?
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That election was there for him to take and he didn't do it.
Agreed.
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That election was there for him to take and he didn't do it.
Right. The right wing media was so fair and honest in it's presentation of Kerry's campaign. *coff* Swift Vets *coff*
Anyhow, it's just more lame excuses from you on how he could have "won you over." You never intended on voting for him, so you are being disengenious at best. He had a plan, you didn't read his plan. It included funding for the development and promotion of Biodiesel technology. Did you need the media to force feed it to you? Maybe a "Kerry's Plan On Tape", so you could listen that while you do your pilates?
mrC
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Anyhow, it's just more lame excuses from you on how he could have "won you over." You never intended on voting for him, so you are being disengenious at best. He had a plan, you didn't read his plan. It included funding for the development and promotion of Biodiesel technology. Did you need the media to force feed it to you? Maybe a "Kerry's Plan On Tape", so you could listen that while you do your pilates?
No, I wasn't going to vote for him, but I was hoping maybe he had a good plan. If he had good plans and won, I would have been happy with that. I was never going to vote for him because of his pathetic record representing Massachusetts. He has done nothing for us and doesn't even bother to vote in most Senate roll calls. If he can't provide for his state then he can't provide for his country.
I did read what he put out and it wasn't good. It called for billions of dollars of funding for unspecified research into unspecified things by unspecified people. The only thing that was specified was how he planned on raising the billions: more taxes on already overtaxed Americans.
This issue doesn't call for new taxes or billions of dollars of research. It calls for some public education. Put some commercials for it during American Idol and I bet half the country would know about it within a month.
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No, I wasn't going to vote for him, but I was hoping maybe he had a good plan.
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you are completely missing the fact that the current administration is made up almost entirely of oil barons and their cronies and we will *not* see effective legislation on alternative energy passed until they are replaced by a group less beholden to the oil companies.
MrC will not be using alternative energy choices until the USA has an administration that will force him to use it.
If the rest of you want the car companies to build alternative energy cars, then start buying alternative energy cars. At one time the Blazer and Bronco were the only SUVs. Now even Porsche makes one.
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Back to Biodiesel (Put down your tin-foil hats, folks)...
THe prmary problem isn't "the man" keeping you down. The primary problem is one of scale. BD is great for recycling already "used" veg oil, but at scale, it doesn't pan out. It takes more energy to produce a gallon of vegetable oil than you get from a gallon of BD (56 lbs of corn for 1.5 lbs of corn oil, find me a system to grow, harvest and refine 56lbs of corn that uses less than 1.5 gallons of diesel fuel). Let's assume that each past food restaurant disposes of 300 gallons of cooking oil a month, at a 20 gallon tank of fuel that lasts about a week (averages pulled out of thin air, but bear with me), each restaurant can support about 3.5 cars. Imagine if each gas station could only support 3.5 cars a month.
Where BD can come in handy is as a recycling method to produce a little excess energy for the restaurant. Put that 300 gallons through a diesel generator, and you reduce the energy consumption of the resturant, reducing fuel used to haul away used oil, reducing coal burned at the power plant, etc. Not enough to power the restaurant, but enough of a profitable position that it should be looked at for all new construction, IMO.
Using this combined with other recycling processes (Thermal de-polymerization ( http://www.changingworldtech.com )) to produce oil can start to put a dent in foreign dependence, but it will never produce enough economically to support the current demand.
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SWIFT VETS WON
Hey, you know MrC, Kerry is in the Senate isn't he?
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SWIFT VETS WON
Hey, you know MrC, Kerry is in the Senate isn't he?
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He won't be president so he dosen't care, he's waiting for the next election year to impliment his ideas.
So true of all politicians.
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http://www.veggievan.org/veggievan/
Josh Tickell is a friend of a friend of mine. Biodeisel is the the most reasonable alternative fuel source I've heard of. You don't need to invent some entirely new form of transportation to use it and the U.S. grows corn corn corn.
I'm perpetually amazed that it hasn't gotten mainstream attention. It's been around for years and years. There are laws preventing more than a certain (very low) percentage of it being included at existing deisel pumps, but I honestly believe that biodeisel has the potential to completely change the world in a number of ways.
...why is biodiesel not being pushed harder by anyone? What am I missing?
Dennis Kucinich pushed it and even had (or had plans for?) running his campaign bus on the stuff. He was mocked relentlessly for the idea. "that crazy hippie nut job Dennis wants to run his bus on corn? [bwahahahahahhh!!!] Cuckoo-cuckoo-cuckoo"
Big US businesses doesn't move on big changes unless pushed and they're usually only "pushed" by lawsuits or foreign competition that threatens to completely put them out of business. My guess is that Japan will have to start growing lots of corn for them to become interested enough to make the US take notice.
Who knows if biodeisel will ever take off. But I, for one, wish it would.
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MrC will not be using alternative energy choices until the USA has an administration that will force him to use it.
Hey genius, I use mass transportation. I moved to a city with public transportation for a reason. When I can't use that, I carpool.
I currently don't have a car. I guess it's no suprise that you, once again, have no idea what the hell you're talking about.
mrC
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SWIFT VETS WON
Now hopefully they can go on dying...bitter, old traitors.
Hey, you know MrC, Kerry is in the Senate isn't he? Why doesn't he introduce his "plan" to the Senate and integrate it into an energy bill?
Last time I checked, any Senator can introduce legislation....
Maybe he's smart enough to pick his battles, maybe he truly doesn't care. I don't know. All I know is that he had presented a plan. Those who said he hadn't are lying.
Anyhow, last time I checked your moron-in-chief wasn't doing anything about it either...in fact, one of his aides in the administration has just recently doctored a scientific report (http://www.gnn.tv/H03285) on greenhouse gases. I guess lying to the American public is part of Bush's "plan" then, eh?
At least he could say "I tried". He could show us all he still cared and wanted to work for us.
Lord knows you really care about having a president that actually works for *you* on this matter....as opposed to the oil companies.
mrC
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MrC will not be using alternative energy choices until the USA has an administration that will force him to use it.
Hey genius, I use mass transportation. I moved to a city with public transportation for a reason. When I can't use that, I carpool.
I currently don't have a car. I guess it's no suprise that you, once again, have no idea what the hell you're talking about.
Hey genius, where in your gibberish do you state you're using alternative energy choices?
Once again, I have no interest in what the hell you're talking about.
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Back on topic, I was amazed to see that Trucks! show on Spike TV ran an episode last weekend entirely focused on Biodiesel. The host went through the whole process of "homebrewing" a batch of fuel, then they ran it in a lightly modified late model Dodge truck and gave it a favorable review.
That show may not qualify as "mainstream", but it's getting closer.
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Once again, I have no interest in what the hell you're talking about.
:-*
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Back off topic, my 67 Dodge Dart runs on an alternative energy choice.
LEADED!!!
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WVO is a great solution for a couple people, but I read of a better solution:
Slashdot.Org Link (http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/02/22/1932248&tid=187&tid=126&tid=14)
Using this technology you could dump in pretty much any organic waste and come out with usable fuel.
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The difference between that and biodiesel, though, is that biodiesel is researched, developed, is up to federal standards for usable fuels, and works with existing technology.
It was said that taking it from corn requires too much energy to be worth it... how about taking it from soy? Same issues?
It was an interesting point brought up that Kerry could introduce his energy plan to the Senate but has not... he'd have to actually be there to do that, and if one reviews his voting record, showing up is not his strong suit and it has never been.
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From what I understand, using biodiesel still requires the use of regular diesel or a mixture with regular diesel because it's too thick or something. Prolly one of many reasons given as to why this isn't feasible large-scale.
I like how the current administration is in bed with oil barons and stepping all over the little guys to keep their power or whatever else you think, MrC, but then you turn around and tell us Kerry is either smart enough to pick his battles OR maybe he truly doesn't care. In the end, when all is said and done, the plan you tout isn't, hasn't, and more than likely won't be put into effect. Sounds like Kerry decided to take his big red ball and go home and pout like a little girl.
Either way, YOU have no reason to complain about the lack of alternative energy plans since your anti-fossil fuel candidate doesn't have the cojones to actually do something OTHER than complain like you are doing about what's going on currently. The difference between Kerry and yourself, as Fredster pointed out to you and you deftly sidestepped, is that Kerry can actually DO something about this, and refuses to. Maybe your energy would be better spent holding Kerry's feet to the fire and asking him why he doesn't have the guts to do something about this issue. As Chad pointed out to us (and I have a feeling it's the reason you know nothing will happen) Kerry's sold out your state time and again. The guy can't even be bothered to show up to vote even half the time, KNOWING he was gonna be running for President.
Let us know when Kerry authors, co-authors, or even puts his name down as supporting a bill like this, since he obviously was the candidate who was going to DO something to fix the country ::) Maybe you can help Kerry see the way wind farms will help us all. Demonstrate it for him. Blow. Hard.
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From what I understand, using biodiesel still requires the use of regular diesel or a mixture with regular diesel because it's too thick or something.
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I notice the proponents of this chose to skip right over abranans comments up there. The problem with all of the alternative forms of energy is that they don't really conserve anything, they just move the pollution/consumtion of energy to create them to another part of the manufacturing cycle. Electric, hydrogen, and biodiesel all seem to get their shortcomings overlooked by the hopeful.
It would be awesome to lose the dependence on Middle East oil. The sure way to watch that hellhole fall apart would be having them lose our oil money.
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I notice the proponents of this chose to skip right over abranans comments up there. The problem with all of the alternative forms of energy is that they don't really conserve anything, they just move the pollution/consumtion of energy to create them to another part of the manufacturing cycle.
I didn't ignore it, I addressed it specifically and asked a question about it. And there is no pollution in the processing of vegeteble oil into biodiesel; the byproduct is glycerin, the main ingredient in soap. What is cleaner than soap?
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And there's already a whole bunch of leftover cooking oil that is being disposed of as 'toxic waste'
And I don't even know that the assertion is actually true, particularly in the long run.
I'm not saying it's not true, I'm just saying that I do not know what the cost is to produce 1 gallon of corn oil.
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bio diesel in australia is mostly used by hippies who make their own from waste cooking oil. it certainly has promise as pure bio- diesel directly replaces diesel, no change to the engine needed (and apparently rudoplh diesel, the inventor of the engine used vegetable oil, not petroleum oil). i have wondered though about the ingredients used to make it. i havent had a chance to look into it. one of them is lye. where does that come from? because if important ingredients used are based on mineral oil then theres not much point in the long run. instead, engines running on straight vegetable oils might be better.
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As a follow up to the cost issue.
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For all you treehuggin' nutjobs. ;)
Willie Nelson Biodiesel Company:
http://www.wnbiodiesel.com/
Stores in Texas and South Carolina.
Generally speaking, biodiesel is available in quite few spots:
http://biodiesel.org/buyingbiodiesel/distributors/default.shtm
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Hey thanks for the tunes!
http://www.biodiesel.com/Roadagain.swf
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So perhaps mustard oil is the best source...
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The difference between that and biodiesel, though, is that biodiesel is researched, developed, is up to federal standards for usable fuels, and works with existing technology.
Well, yeah, whoop de do: you take vegetable oil and run that instead of diesel. Problem being that *until* it becomes widespread, and a lot of people are growing mustard seed for fuel, it isn't viable. And even then, it only runs on diesel engines!
http://www.mindfully.org/Energy/2003/Anything-Into-Oil1may03.htm
You'd have to make the plants to do it, but since you can put in *any* organic waste and come up with gasoline, this makes much more sense. The $$$/gallon is high, but only because it's a new technology with only a couple places doing it. If it were widespread, it would be far cheaper. Imagine gas stations not having to wait for a tanker to show up, they just toss in organic substances (what a great way to get rid of those huge manure piles!) and off you go, gas in an hour.
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The difference between that and biodiesel, though, is that biodiesel is researched, developed, is up to federal standards for usable fuels, and works with existing technology.
Well, yeah, whoop de do
It is whoop de do.
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Well, yeah, whoop de do: you take vegetable oil and run that instead of diesel. Problem being that *until* it becomes widespread, and a lot of people are growing mustard seed for fuel, it isn't viable. And even then, it only runs on diesel engines!
No, that's not the big deal about it. The big deal about conforming to existing fuel standards is that you can use it in your car without voiding the warranty, which is a HUGE deal for someone with a car that isn't 5+ years old. I wouldn't touch an alternative fuel if it violated the 100,000 mile warranty on my car, it's just not worth that sacrifice.
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Again, both of you have taken what I've said, without including the context: until it's a widespread practice, it's practically *useless* until it gets more recognition and use. .0000001% of all fuel being used in diesel engines is biodiesel (perhaps even less). This has practically no impact. It's gaining in popularity to be sure, but it has to be widely adopted before there will be any real benefit.
The "turkey guts" idea (which, incidentally, takes *all* organic matter, not just turkey guts) won't eliminate the problem, but it will certainly make a dent. If it WAS widespread (ie a plant in every major city/town) you could take all the towns waste (stuff that was going to end up in a landfill) and just turn it into oil, instead of burying it in the ground.
And as for 'existing fuel standards' the oil that comes out is practically the same as crude oil, at a far cheaper price of $8-11 a barrel instead of the $50 we're paying now. And without the risks of transporting the crude over vast distances.
Don't get me wrong; I think biodiesel (or even SVO) is a great idea. But it's going to require a vast amount of land resources to grow the crops, then process them. This solution takes existing waste (which you can't deny there is a lot of it) and in a tenth of the space needed, converts it to a usable medium.
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Without the recognition of the trash fuel as being officially approved to that standard, no one would ever use it or sell it. It has more potential, you are right, but probably decades before it reaches biodiesel's maturity point as a viable fuel for every day consumer use. Biodiesel is far, far closer right now.
Of course, not many people drive diesel vehicles, and that is a huge hurdle today too.
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Without the recognition of the trash fuel as being officially approved to that standard, no one would ever use it or sell it. It has more potential, you are right, but probably decades before it reaches biodiesel's maturity point as a viable fuel for every day consumer use. Biodiesel is far, far closer right now.
Of course, not many people drive diesel vehicles, and that is a huge hurdle today too.
People are still under the impression that diesel vehicles are wasteful godawful-stench-ridden terrible-mileage vehicles. If that weren't an accurate assessment, the VW diesels would be the poster car for all the 'huggers, instead of the bass-turd stepchild VW doesn't talk about.
Other than the availability of diesel in some places, there's no reason not to buy a modern diesel car today.
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I think it is sad that the technology has been around almost as long as the diesel engine and almost no one even knows it exists. Sure the process is more expensive than using standard diesel at the moment. Even the 1 dollar a gallon figure for mustard seed is slightly misleading. The price markup on fuel can be quite large due to distribution costs and such. Biodiesel could be made competitive with regular diesel at that price though if there was government/industry interest (waived taxes for "green" fuel).
One of the nice things about it, is that is can be mixed in any quantity with regular diesel. I believe the only malady compared to regular diesel is that it has a greater tendency to clog fuel filters.
All of the literature i have read about it says it can be used with "little to no modifications" to the engine, but your guess is as good as mine as to what that means. You would think that they would give more specifics on these sites considering that they give an in-depth description of the tetration process(how you make it).
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Has anyone here read this book?
From the Fryer to the Fuel Tank: The Complete Guide to Using Vegetable Oil as an Alternative Fuel
Amazon.Com Link (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0970722702/ref=pd_sxp_f/104-8813056-0045545?v=glance&s=books)
it's supposed to be a pretty good read
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With the way gas prices are rising, it will be a matter of a year before biodiesel, even with markups, is equal in pricing to oil based diesel, and only a couple of years before it is cost effective.
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As a follow up to the cost issue.
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Our fuel prices are rapidly catching up. In 1999 I was paying $.75/gallon. Now I'm paying $2.15. I expect to be paying $3.00 before this year is up. That is some mighty fast price raising.
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Lord knows you really care about having a president that actually works for *you* on this matter....as opposed to the oil companies.
Sigh, it's always Bush's fault. Never anybody else is it?
Let's see. We make bio diesel from oil from corn. Corn is grown using tractors and multiple passes with chemicals. Then big machines are used to harvest it.
Oils from other types of vegies need to be used too. How much is corn a bussel? How much crisco is there in the world anyway?
Then you have to mix it in a fairly complicated chemical process and make the biodiesel.
We pump 1 or 2 million barrels of oil out of the ground every day. They have systems in place to convert it all over the US with no new capital expenditures.
MrC, economics and reality aren't your strongest suit are they?
Otherwise, you would have a car and would understand exactly how business works. How's that bankruptcy thing going anyway?
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Other than the availability of diesel in some places, there's no reason not to buy a modern diesel car today.
I know that diesel gets great mileage, but from what I hear, its the sulfur emmissions that are the problem. Apparantly the sulfur content of the north american diesel is a lot higher than the european diesel.
Has anybody else heard this?
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Other than the availability of diesel in some places, there's no reason not to buy a modern diesel car today.
I know that diesel gets great mileage, but from what I hear, its the sulfur emmissions that are the problem. Apparantly the sulfur content of the north american diesel is a lot higher than the european diesel.
Has anybody else heard this?
I don't know for sure what the differences between Euro diesel and North American diesel are, but my fiancee's father has a diesel VW in Germany. He fills it up with Biodiesel when the stuff is available. It's not at every gas station, but I guess it's available at most.
I wish I had more technical info. to share. This is a great question/topic, Chad. Thanks for bringing it up.
I don't believe Kerry had the environmental answers, but Bush has been phenomenally bad in that area, not to mention being in bed with the Saudi monarchy and anyone in the petroleum biz.
If the president does much of anything besides go on vacation, he sets the agenda, makes certain issues important just by mentioning them.
I had the pleasure of voting for Kucinich in the primaries, since I live in Ohio. I won't even tell you guys who I voted for in the election. I refuse to believe in the better of two bad choices. :(
Cheers,
KenToad
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Other than the availability of diesel in some places, there's no reason not to buy a modern diesel car today.
I know that diesel gets great mileage, but from what I hear, its the sulfur emmissions that are the problem.
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Back to Biodiesel (Put down your tin-foil hats, folks)...
THe prmary problem isn't "the man" keeping you down. The primary problem is one of scale. BD is great for recycling already "used" veg oil, but at scale, it doesn't pan out.
Thank you for the sanity. As with many 'alternate energy' ideas, it's simple economics, the alternate costing more(in the pocketbook at least) than the conventional. When tech progress and rising energy prices change that, alternitives will take off.
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Back to Biodiesel (Put down your tin-foil hats, folks)...
THe prmary problem isn't "the man" keeping you down.
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Other than the availability of diesel in some places, there's no reason not to buy a modern diesel car today.
I know that diesel gets great mileage, but from what I hear, its the sulfur emmissions that are the problem.
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Um, wouldn't growing corn and other crops specifically to turn into fuel be cheaper than growing them to eat?
No one is going to eat it, which means it can be engineered solely for mass and such, it won't have to be edible, they won't have to use the expensive pesticides that make the stuff still safe for eatin'.
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My bicycle gets good gas mileage.
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Um, wouldn't growing corn and other crops specifically to turn into fuel be cheaper than growing them to eat?
No one is going to eat it, which means it can be engineered solely for mass and such, it won't have to be edible, they won't have to use the expensive pesticides that make the stuff still safe for eatin'.
Genetically engineered corn? gasp ::) I'm SURE there's gonna be a problem with that, too, which is prolly just one more reason it ain't happenin'
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Back to Biodiesel (Put down your tin-foil hats, folks)...
THe prmary problem isn't "the man" keeping you down. The primary problem is one of scale. BD is great for recycling already "used" veg oil, but at scale, it doesn't pan out.
Thank you for the sanity. As with many 'alternate energy' ideas, it's simple economics, the alternate costing more(in the pocketbook at least) than the conventional. When tech progress and rising energy prices change that, alternitives will take off.
I'll agree with part of that, it is about 'economics', but it's not nearly as "simple" as you suggest.
Your argument is the same one that was made about hybrid cars. "We don't make them because the demand isn't there" Right. Tell that to the thousands of people on waiting lists. My dad waited almost 2 years to get his Prius.
If you think people who make millions and millions of dollars off of petroleum, petroleum related products and petroleum related services are making decisions based on what's good for the consumer/planet/safety/whatever, you're insane.
They make decisions that are the best for their wallets/investors/board/etc And if that means legislation to keep biodiesel/diesel combo at 2% biodiesel max, or doing whatever they can to slow/prevent the progress of alternative energy sources, then that's what they do. You don't mess around when you're talking about that kind of money.
I'm not talking financial economics, I'm talking energy economics. If I have an oil well, and a certain level of "investment" fuel, I will eventually be able to pay back the "investment" fuel and run the whole operation off of oil I pump from the ground with oil to spare. Not so with Biodiesel (yet). Even if I have some startup fuel, I won't be able to produce more biodiesel than I use in production. I have to put more energy into the system than I get out of it. GM may be the answer, though. Breed a higher-oil type of corn, or a type that ferments to ethanol more easily, or even just a higher yield corn that produces more per acre. Shoot, it doesn't even have to be corn, it could be some new plant type that produces oil-sacks in place of kernels. Maybe a grape based plant.
Supposedly, the thermal deploymerization folks have gotten their system "energy positive" and can run the process off of the water and natural gas byproducts of the process, leaving the light crude and pure carbon as profit. Makes sense since they're using input products that have had a lot of energy stored in them. I understand there may be issues with the process working above a certain scale, but as long as it's "energy positive" there's an investment point that will yield a profitable solution. Plus it helps get rid of landfills, which can only be a good thing, even if they never are "energy positive". I'd gladly spend 500 million barrels of oil to get 400 million barrels of oil and eliminate landfills.
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Shoot, it doesn't even have to be corn, it could be some new plant type that produces oil-sacks in place of kernels. Maybe a grape based plant.
Just remember to keep you eye (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0812967127/104-5910829-2280756?v=glance) shield (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055894/) in place during harvesting... ;D
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If we can recycle turkey guts and make fuel, can't we find a better use for all these Mexicans running across the border?
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Maybe we can use them? Hummm.....
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Treadmills hooked to generators?
(sorry, looking for a humane way to harvest the energy)
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Then you'd have to grow corn to feed them, which is what we're trying to avoid in the first place.
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Using this technology you could dump in pretty much any organic waste and come out with usable fuel.
Jumpin' Jiggawatts!
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Shoot, it doesn't even have to be corn, it could be some new plant type that produces oil-sacks in place of kernels.
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Alot of country perople use the biodiesel in there rodeo utes etc.
Most just get the fat/oil from fish and chip shops from there local town (most throw it away) and it last them the week till they go back and get some more.
You can use it without any diesel at all but you need to have the stuff heated up to a liquid form.
only downside of the people who use it on there farms is they smell like fish and chips.
But they have been doing it for ALOT of years and never had a problem the engine has been known to go to 300 or 400+ miles using bio diesel :)
Gotta love the aussie farmers who use it :D
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I am surprised the McDonald's isn't getting behind this.
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That would probably have health ramifications since, for all the grease, fries represent over half of America's intake of veggies. Nobody wants to eat food that smells like their car.
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Well, eventually fries would start to smell like cars. ;D
Mmmmmmmm.... new-car-smell fries......
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Thought about reviving this thread, as every day I consider finding a beater diesel vehicle (VW Rabbit) and running it off WVO.
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I have a 2002 Jetta thats diesel and I love it. 40 miles to the gallon and plus! I live in Chicago and drove to the Kentucky derby and back and had a quarter tank of gas left, plus I filled up right outside of Chicago and got a free cup of coffe with any diesel purchase, still waiting to try biodiesel though.
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It certainly looks as though biodiesel is needed more and more now. With the price of gas doubling now within a week, now can these idiots concede that this is the best short term alternative? It has taken a serious leap into cost effective at this point.
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I notice the proponents of this chose to skip right over abranans comments up there. The problem with all of the alternative forms of energy is that they don't really conserve anything, they just move the pollution/consumtion of energy to create them to another part of the manufacturing cycle. Electric, hydrogen, and biodiesel all seem to get their shortcomings overlooked by the hopeful.
It would be awesome to lose the dependence on Middle East oil. The sure way to watch that hellhole fall apart would be having them lose our oil money.
Well yes and no. Biodiesel generates just as much CO2 as ordinary petroleum but to produce it you have to grow plants that absorb an equivalent amount of CO2 from the atmosphere. So in theory biodiesel should not cause an increase in CO2 levels over the long term. This of course assumes that the corn (or whatever plant you're using) to produce the biodiesel is being grown on previously barren ground. If the biodiesel crops displace existing vegetation then CO2 levels will go up.
You're right about electric cars. With current technology it is impractical to run them off solarcells. So most of the electricity ultimately has to be generated by conventional power stations running on coal, oil etc.
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I've seen a video of a small gas motor running on hydrogen. I'd much prefer that to be developed than "biodiesel", which I think would ultimately cost as much or more than what we are using now.
You fill the tank with water, add salt (or any electrolyte); or simply use sea water; and drop in a piece of cheap alloy ("According to the company's representative, this metal alloy is so inexpensive that an engine can run for four hours on a piece that would cost about half a cent [Canadian]") and the water breaks up into hydrogen and oxygen, the hydrogen being piped to the carburetor to fuel the motor, with the same performance as the traditional gasoline/air mixture.
http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/watercar/h20car2.htm
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I've seen a video of a small gas motor running on hydrogen. I'd much prefer that to be developed than "biodiesel", which I think would ultimately cost as much or more than what we are using now.
You fill the tank with water, add salt (or any electrolyte); or simply use sea water; and drop in a piece of cheap alloy ("According to the company's representative, this metal alloy is so inexpensive that an engine can run for four hours on a piece that would cost about half a cent [Canadian]") and the water breaks up into hydrogen and oxygen, the hydrogen being piped to the carburetor to fuel the motor, with the same performance as the traditional gasoline/air mixture.
http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/watercar/h20car2.htm
Sounds a bit like a perpetual motion machine to me i.e. dodgy.
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Sounds a bit like a perpetual motion machine to me i.e. dodgy.
It has nothing to do with perpetual motion. The motor is running off hydrogen, which is an excellent fuel. There is a video there of it running; though the concept is plenty sound enough that the video is superfluous.
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I've seen a video of a small gas motor running on hydrogen. I'd much prefer that to be developed than "biodiesel", which I think would ultimately cost as much or more than what we are using now.
You fill the tank with water, add salt (or any electrolyte); or simply use sea water; and drop in a piece of cheap alloy ("According to the company's representative, this metal alloy is so inexpensive that an engine can run for four hours on a piece that would cost about half a cent [Canadian]") and the water breaks up into hydrogen and oxygen, the hydrogen being piped to the carburetor to fuel the motor, with the same performance as the traditional gasoline/air mixture.
http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/watercar/h20car2.htm
This is impossible as reported. Breaking up water into Hydrogen and Oxygen takes more energy than you get back in useful energy when you burn it. The energy has to come from somewhere. Water is not a net energy source.
The link is full of shite in so many ways. Just plain BS to anyone with any background in chemistry, physics, thermodynamics, etc.
Okay. I've read more of the page. It's a joke, right? Some of the claims are beyond absurd.
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This is impossible as reported. Breaking up water into Hydrogen and Oxygen takes more energy than you get back in useful energy when you burn it. The energy has to come from somewhere. Water is not a net energy source.
There are many different designs for running a car off water (hydrogen). Here is another one from BMW - http://www.bmwworld.com/models/750hl.htm
And it is not a joke.
It isn't about net energy. No one is concerned about inputting more energy than one gets in return; since that always happens no matter what; according to the first law of thermodynamics. The point is to take something that is plentiful and cheap and convert into a useful form of energy; in BMW's case, solar power > electricity > electrolysis > hydrogen. In the case of the other link, chemical reaction of stated alloy with water + electrolyte > hydrogen.
The energy has to come from somewhere.
The energy to split the water in to hydrogen and oxygen is coming from the chemical reaction of the alloy with the water/electrolyte solution. The alloy is consumed in the process. Did you watch the video? It was produced by "Rolling Arts TV", which is a Los Angeles TV channel that focuses on the history of motorcycles. Not exactly tabloid television.
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Can we keep this in the realm of the technologically possible? Hydrogen as fuel is decades away. This oil dependency and cost problem is current. It is the gov't insistence on waiting for hydrogen that is causing nothing to happen. If we insist on waiting for hydrogen, we may as well scrap hydrogen and go straight for cold fusion.
Biodiesel is usable and fully developed NOW.
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Can we keep this in the realm of the technologically possible? Hydrogen as fuel is decades away.
I suppose that 12 HP gasoline motor running in the video on hydrogen was filmed through a crystal ball?
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Yay, a prototype 12HP engine! Let's see how well that runs a car and is cost effective enough to manufacture ten million times a year.
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Yay, a prototype 12HP engine!
The motor is an off the shelf gas motor. The fuel system would need to be developed of course, but that is what engineers are for.
There is also the air-powered car such as the "e.Volution" (compressed air is pretty cheap) - http://auto.howstuffworks.com/air-car.htm
Within the next two years, you could see the first air-powered vehicle motoring through your town. Most likely, it will be the e.Volution car that is being built by Zero Pollution Motors, in Brignoles, France. The cars have generated a lot of interest in recent years, and the Mexican government has already signed a deal to buy 40,000 e.Volutions to replace gasoline- and diesel-powered taxis in the heavily polluted Mexico City.
That article is getting pretty old now, so why can't I buy one of these air-powered cars?
I don't think we will see any of these things which are possible right now; too much money for powerful people to lose.
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I looked into bio-diesel and waste veggie oil a while back for my business- I burn around 375 gallons of diesel a month. To address some of the things I've read in this thread:
Bio-Diesel is not the same as Waste Vegetable oil:
The stuff you get out of the fryer at McDonalds is Waste Vegetable Oil. A modified vehicle can burn this stuff directly, after you've filtered all the chunks out. No chemistry needed. You can also use Waste Vegetable Oil to make Bio-Diesel, but this is a more complex process, involving chemistry and some potentially dangerous chemicals.
Modifications to the engine:
For direct burning of waste oil: you need a heating system added to heat the oil so that it's not too thick. Also a spare tank, and a switching mechanism, so you can switch back and forth from veggie to petro.
For Bio-Diesel: Cars made before 1994 need all the rubber parts in the fuel system replaced with parts made from Viton. Viton is a synthetic that won't break down when bio is run through it. The parts are readily available, because the high-sulphur diesel fuel that's being dispensed today eats those old rubber parts up anyway. in 1994, the automakers switched to Viton anyway, for just this reason. Diesel vehicles made since 1994 need no conversion.
Limited supply of Waste VegOil from restaurants
You can use brand new, non-waste veggie oil, too. So the supply is only limited by what America can grow, or buy.
Limited availability of Diesel burning vehicles
That's only because most people don't buy them. There are plenty of different vehicles being sold with diesel engines if you want one.
Not enough people using Diesel to justify putting it at the gas station
EVERY big truck you see runs on diesel. So does all the heavy equipment you see. A large percentage of full-sized pickups are diesel. And more cars than you think. When you see a new VW, do you ask the driver if it's a diesel or not? Because a lot of them are. A lot of other cars you see every day are/were sold with both gas and diesel engines, but how often do you check to see which one you're looking at?
Can't buy Bio-Diesel at the pump, except in a 2% blend
100% Bio is available at the pump in the SF Bay area: http://www.berkeleybiodiesel.org/resources.html#retail (retailers @ bottom of page)
The big problem is that high-percentage Bio is not currently Federally approved as a motor vehicle fuel. Those Bay Area guys had to get approval to sell it as an "experimental" fuel.
It clogs your fuel filter
Sort of. Petro Diesel leaves deposits all through your fuel system. Bio acts as a solvent, and pulls all that junk loose, clogging the filters pretty quickly when you first start using it. But after it gets it all clean, that problem goes away.
Waste Veg, on the other hand, will continue to cause clogs if your filtration is not good enough. French fry chunks will clog it up every time!
One other problem..
.. is that if you run on Waste VegOil or make your own Bio, you're not paying your highway taxes, since those are added on to your fuel costs at the pump. Not that I care if you want to stick it to the man, and it's unlikely you'll get caught. But a few people have been caught, and prosecuted. The way around it is to pay those taxes anyway, at the end of the year on your tax returns. You can still stick it to the man- claim on your return that you only burned 100 gallons of homemade fuel that year, instead of the 1000 you really burned. If you ever get popped for running non-taxed fuel, you can claim that was the day you ran a tank's worth of the 100 gallons you pay for on your return.
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That article is getting pretty old now, so why can't I buy one of these air-powered cars?
I don't think we will see any of these things which are possible right now; too much money for powerful people to lose.
Yet, you could walk to any retail dealership and buy a diesel car today, and fuel it with Biodiesel without invalidating your warranty.
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Yet, you could walk to any retail dealership and buy a diesel car today, and fuel it with Biodiesel without invalidating your warranty.
That's fine but I don't see biodiesel as being much cheaper. Either way, it is something that we have to depend on "them" to not gouge us on the price; it is all in "their" hands. I want something free or cheap that no one controls the manufacture of or can tax; like air, water or sunlight; or a combination of these things.
Call me a conspiracist, but I don't think "the powers that be" will allow it; or at least will do their damnedest to prevent it from becoming anything more than a novelty that you read about somewhere. That "e.Volution" debuted 5 years ago; where in the hell is it? I should be able to buy several year old models for cheap by now. For all intents and purposes; it is free to fuel. Free. Biodiesel by its very nature will never approach "free"; will be taxed, controlled and price "gouged" the same as the current petroleum products that we use.
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Don't see it as much cheaper? It actually IS cheaper, with the prices where they are today. As gas prices continue to rise, so will the disparity in price. This doesn't even take into account the near zero pollution that pure Biodiesel gives you.
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Don't see it as much cheaper?
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A dollar a gallon? Dude, water is more than a dollar a gallon.
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A dollar a gallon?
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and makes up what? 2/3 of the earth's surface?
You have come up with a way to drink nonpotable salt water?
If gas could sell for roughly $1 a gallon for 20 years then it could sell for that now. It's only been 5 years since it was last near a dollar a gallon; and less than 8 years ago it was 89 cents a gallon.
Only in the US. Everywhere else it has been well over $3/gallon for a long time.
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You have come up with a way to drink nonpotable salt water?
Duh, it's called a straw chad. Sure it tastes a bit funny, but when you start to retch from drinking all that free water, you can always head north to grab some of that free healthcare to fix you up. ;D
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You have come up with a way to drink nonpotable salt water?
I'm sure you realize that all of the water on the earth's surface is constantly being recycled into the atmosphere through evaporation and then it rains and it never rains salt water; you know, because water vapor doesn't have a salt transport mechanism, lol. So yes, all of the water on the earth's surface (and in the atmosphere) contributes to what you can drink for free; i.e. some of the water that was in the ocean will evaporate; condense and fall as rain and end up in a fresh body of water and vice-versa. If the water cycle on earth was in a state of stasis then you may have a point with your comment. It is not (you know, because it is called a cycle); and you don't.
Only in the US. Everywhere else it has been well over $3/gallon for a long time.
They simply have a different tax structure and applicable regulations than we do; which has nothing to do with the actual cost of gasoline.
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Fuel Cells or On-Board Water splitting are not the only wasy to run a car on Hydrogen.
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/TECH/science/03/16/hydrogen.cars/
BMW has had hydrogen powered cars in developement for a long time.
Big Oil politics aside, one of the biggest problem with hydrogen powered vehicles is the perceived danger. Tell someone that they are going to drive around with a tank of hydrogen and the first thing that pops into their head is images of the Hindenburg disaster.
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Notice they never mention how much those cars would cost to buy. Doubtless, they are prototypes, and to mass produce them, they would not be cost effective to bring to market.
That is not market viability.
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Tell someone that they are going to drive around with a tank of hydrogen and the first thing that pops into their head is images of the Hindenburg disaster.
Since the tanks will probably be under their seats, their heads wont be the first place the disaster will pop into.
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Yes, that thought process will occur to anyone who is unaware that gasoline is highly combustible as well.
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This is impossible as reported. Breaking up water into Hydrogen and Oxygen takes more energy than you get back in useful energy when you burn it. The energy has to come from somewhere. Water is not a net energy source.
There are many different designs for running a car off water (hydrogen). Here is another one from BMW - http://www.bmwworld.com/models/750hl.htm
And it is not a joke.
It isn't about net energy. No one is concerned about inputting more energy than one gets in return; since that always happens no matter what; according to the first law of thermodynamics. The point is to take something that is plentiful and cheap and convert into a useful form of energy; in BMW's case, solar power > electricity > electrolysis > hydrogen. In the case of the other link, chemical reaction of stated alloy with water + electrolyte > hydrogen.
The energy has to come from somewhere.
The energy to split the water in to hydrogen and oxygen is coming from the chemical reaction of the alloy with the water/electrolyte solution. The alloy is consumed in the process. Did you watch the video? It was produced by "Rolling Arts TV", which is a Los Angeles TV channel that focuses on the history of motorcycles. Not exactly tabloid television.
maxim is right. Iceland plans to go completely hydrogen/geothermal in like 40 years. The only thing in their country right now that uses oil is transportation. But htey are lucky to have all the geothermal energy they can use.
now, about the piece of metal that gets added. The oxygen in the water must react with it (and the salt) leaving the hydrogen to go to the tank. I'm wondering what is left. Would you have to clean your tank out once and awhile? Obviously something is oxidizing.
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Except gasoline isn't compressed.
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Except gasoline isn't compressed.
Gas blows up just fine without any compression. And compressed-gas tanks are made tons stronger than the flimsy sheet-metal tanks your gasoline is in. An impact sufficient to pop your Hydrogen tank is almost certainly strong enough to pop your gas tank. And likely to pop you, too, whether or not the fuel ignites.
As long as we're at it, batteries are full of acid, so they're not exactly super-safe, either.
Bio-Diesel is no more flamable than Petro-Diesel. Hold a match to a puddle of diesel and watch it NOT catch on fire- it only combusts when put under enormous pressure inside the cylinder. And as for straight vegetable oil: Who's worried that the Corn Oil in the kitchen cupboard is going to explode?
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When is the last time it reached a couple hundred degrees in your cupboard? Or the last time someone threw lit matches in there?
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And likely to pop you, too, whether or not the fuel ignites.
That's the problem. A fuel tank cracks, a hydrogen tank pops. Whether or not it ignites the results with a hydrogen tank will be violent, and that violence will be happening under your seat.
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So? The same risk is run 1000 times a day at Taco Bell, no one is saying that shouldn't happen.
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So?
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Biodiesel is usable and fully developed NOW.
If you think biodiesel can be sold competitively against standard diesel, please give it a try.
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From http://www.biofueloasis.com/:
We sell high quality commercial biodiesel that meets ASTM standards. We prefer to sell biodiesel that is made from recycled vegetable oil. Our current price is $3.49 per gallon and includes sales tax, state excise tax, and federal excise tax.
That's about what they were selling it for a couple months ago. Since then, petro prices have jumped a good .50 per gallon.
Regular Diesel is currently selling for $3.29 at the cheapest place in Berkeley, according to this cheap gas finder site (http://www.oaklandgasprices.com/index.aspx?s=Y&fuel=D&area=Berkeley&tme_limit=72).
That's close enough to be competetive, when you consider the benefits of switching to Bio. Admittedly, Bio's still not actually cheaper, but how long do you think it will take for regular Diesel to outpace it with the petroleum situation being what is?
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Sweet! (http://nbb.grassroots.com/FY06NewsReleases/DC_Ram/)
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Much of the adoption of Biodeisel is simple ignorance, inconvenience to find it at every corner, and some of the side effects that it has.
While Biodeisel is not exactly something that will save us ecologically, it is better than our present situation. Ignorance of biodiesel is the most common. It really isn't that hard to start using; most diesel engines will work with little to no modification, depending on the blend and the quality of the components in the engine. Bio still isn't total diesel, and can have various negative impacts if you don't fully test it with the engine you're pumping it into.
I recently purchased a decently sized tractor. I am also fortunate that I have a Biodiesel aware gas station not more than few miles from my house (both B25 and B100). The price of it is about 10% higher than normal Diesel from the other pumps. The issue I have is that I can't get a consistent answer from a dealer, web boards, or the vendor itself on what issues I might have with either blend. Remember, that if the engine can't take it, then I can have problems with gasket failures up to chamber seal problems. Yikes! I can't take the risk. I feel myself resourceful enough to do the research, but there is simply not enough data in the field to educate a casual consumer.
The other ignorance we have is that diesel is noisy, stinky, and doesn't have the "oomph" that a normal unleaded fuel has. While many of these have basis in fact, they are not the whole truth. Car manufacturers could overcome many of these things if they put the engineering behind it (or forced us to change our perceptions). They've done this in other parts of the world mostly because of demand and/or mandate.
The inconvenience comes from gas companies not providing it cost effectively everywhere, and the car companies stating they have no demand to do diesel because you can't buy that fuel everywhere. It's a catch-22. Supply and Demand is a real economic tool, and it has defined our culture for the type of car we have in the USA.
I don't disagree on the opinion that the political parties in power have some part in this. But they also can be convinced by popular opinion if enough of us all said the same thing. The debate over a republican does this, a democrat does that seems insignificant to me. They all have vested interest in foreign oil, even if the party agenda is contrary to it. There is simply to much power, influence and money in foreign oil to ignore.
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That's the problem. A fuel tank cracks, a hydrogen tank pops. Whether or not it ignites the results with a hydrogen tank will be violent, and that violence will be happening under your seat.
Then you engineer around it safely. Most alternative fuel sources being considered have some inherent risk of cause an explosion and/or catching on fire. That is unless you consider the alternatives such as the Fred Flinstone running engine or the perpetual mostion gyro-car. You might say solar, but reserve energy has to be kept somewhere when the sun isn't out, and that is some type of battery that has risks.
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My big hope for Biodiesel is actually more in the areas of national security and the farm industry. If we were to move to a farm product based fuel system, my God, the farm industry would go from 90% dead in the US to dominating the entire plains portion of the continent nearly overnight... plus, a revolutionary shift in foreign policy as we nearly eliminate our dependence on foreign oil. Global threats in Iraq? Who cares? All they have is crude oil over there, we don't need that anymore.
We would be able to move back into a world power in terms of domestic production again. That was what really built the US into the world's dominant economy and the death of domestic production is what has caused our downfall over the last generation or two. Really, if WE moved to a naturally grown fuel source, much of the world would follow, and who has more farmland than we do? Not very many places...
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I'm buying a 2006 Honda Civic. Not the hybrid one, cos it's just out of my price range, but the regular one gets 30/40 (EPA, not real) which ain't bad.
Um....I don't think that had anything to do with this thread. I'm just excited about the car, I think.
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Heh. My Civic has been great when people aren't stealing it or breaking into it. Mine is a 99 and has always gotten about 35 highway and 27-30 city.
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The new ones are really cool. I test drove a bunch of cars and everything else just felt like a nicer, upgraded version of my '98 Dodge Neon which is finally retiring. The '06 Civic feels like a next generation vehicle. It was a ball to drive. They're quite a bit quicker than previous models. Honda's clearly trying to shift the Civic's market from Baby Boomers to Generation Y, so the new design probably alienates a lot of previous Civic owners. It hooked me, though.
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You need one that runs on Biodiesel.
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Biodiesel is for old ladies and pedophiles.
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I'd like to buy'o dese'ls:
The Camaro or the Challenger. (http://autoshow.msn.com/as/vote.aspx?xml=voting&shw=autoshow2006&src=News)
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Biodiesel is for old ladies and pedophiles.
And baby stabbers. Whatever you do, don't forget the baby stabbers!
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I'd like to buy'o dese'ls:
The Camaro or the Challenger. (http://autoshow.msn.com/as/vote.aspx?xml=voting&shw=autoshow2006&src=News)
I hate that Camero, but I think that the Challenger is a ---smurfing--- work of art. That thing needs to go into production immediately. It puts the new Mustang absolutely to shame.
I didn't actually click the link, so I don't know if it's the same material, but there's a video with footage and interviews with the designers of the Challenger that is a must see. I know that www.edmunds.com hosts it somewhere, but I'm too lazy and busy to look it up.
edit: okay....I kind of looked it up, but I can't figure out how to direct-link to it. Go here, and there's a link on the right-hand side of the page. It's kinda small, so just search for the words "dodge challenger" on the page to find it.
Click here (http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/VideosGalleryIndex)
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The Charger was real kick to the groin, but who knows, if Dodge doesn't go belly up in the 2 years it might be able to make up for it.
Challenger (http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/PopUpVideoPlayer/videoID=20030869/articleId=108756)
Camaro (http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/PopUpVideoPlayer/videoID=20030922/articleId=108821)
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That Challenger looked a lot like the Charger. So much so, I didn't even give it a second look. That Camaro looks like ass though. Like they threw on the Mustang's side trim as an afterthought.