Biodiesel

[IntruderAlert]

Hey thanks for the tunes!
http://www.biodiesel.com/Roadagain.swf

[ChadTower]

So perhaps mustard oil is the best source...

[SirPeale]

The difference between that and biodiesel, though, is that biodiesel is researched, developed, is up to federal standards for usable fuels, and works with existing technology.

Well, yeah, whoop de do: you take vegetable oil and run that instead of diesel.  Problem being that *until* it becomes widespread, and a lot of people are growing mustard seed for fuel, it isn't viable.  And even then, it only runs on diesel engines!

http://www.mindfully.org/Energy/2003/Anything-Into-Oil1may03.htm

You'd have to make the plants to do it, but since you can put in *any* organic waste and come up with gasoline, this makes much more sense.  The $$$/gallon is high, but only because it's a new technology with only a couple places doing it.  If it were widespread, it would be far cheaper.  Imagine gas stations not having to wait for a tanker to show up, they just toss in organic substances (what a great way to get rid of those huge manure piles!) and off you go, gas in an hour.

[quarterback]

The difference between that and biodiesel, though, is that biodiesel is researched, developed, is up to federal standards for usable fuels, and works with existing technology.

Well, yeah, whoop de do

It is whoop de do.

[ChadTower]

Well, yeah, whoop de do: you take vegetable oil and run that instead of diesel.  Problem being that *until* it becomes widespread, and a lot of people are growing mustard seed for fuel, it isn't viable.  And even then, it only runs on diesel engines!

No, that's not the big deal about it.  The big deal about conforming to existing fuel standards is that you can use it in your car without voiding the warranty, which is a HUGE deal for someone with a car that isn't 5+ years old.  I wouldn't touch an alternative fuel if it violated the 100,000 mile warranty on my car, it's just not worth that sacrifice.

[SirPeale]

Again, both of you have taken what I've said, without including the context: until it's a widespread practice, it's practically *useless* until it gets more recognition and use.  .0000001% of all fuel being used in diesel engines is biodiesel (perhaps even less).  This has practically no impact.  It's gaining in popularity to be sure, but it has to be widely adopted before there will be any real benefit.

The "turkey guts" idea (which, incidentally, takes *all* organic matter, not just turkey guts) won't eliminate the problem, but it will certainly make a dent.  If it WAS widespread (ie a plant in every major city/town) you could take all the towns waste (stuff that was going to end up in a landfill) and just turn it into oil, instead of burying it in the ground.

And as for 'existing fuel standards' the oil that comes out is practically the same as crude oil, at a far cheaper price of $8-11 a barrel instead of the $50 we're paying now.  And without the risks of transporting the crude over vast distances.

Don't get me wrong; I think biodiesel (or even SVO) is a great idea.  But it's going to require a vast amount of land resources to grow the crops, then process them.  This solution takes existing waste (which you can't deny there is a lot of it) and in a tenth of the space needed, converts it to a usable medium.

[ChadTower]

Without the recognition of the trash fuel as being officially approved to that standard, no one would ever use it or sell it.  It has more potential, you are right, but probably decades before it reaches biodiesel's maturity point as a viable fuel for every day consumer use.  Biodiesel is far, far closer right now.

Of course, not many people drive diesel vehicles, and that is a huge hurdle today too.

[DrewKaree]

Without the recognition of the trash fuel as being officially approved to that standard, no one would ever use it or sell it.  It has more potential, you are right, but probably decades before it reaches biodiesel's maturity point as a viable fuel for every day consumer use.  Biodiesel is far, far closer right now.

Of course, not many people drive diesel vehicles, and that is a huge hurdle today too.

People are still under the impression that diesel vehicles are wasteful godawful-stench-ridden terrible-mileage vehicles.  If that weren't an accurate assessment, the VW diesels would be the poster car for all the 'huggers, instead of the bass-turd stepchild VW doesn't talk about.

Other than the availability of diesel in some places, there's no reason not to buy a modern diesel car today.

[shadowdrak]

I think it is sad that the technology has been around almost as long as the diesel engine and almost no one even knows it exists.  Sure the process is more expensive than using standard diesel at the moment.  Even the 1 dollar a gallon figure for mustard seed is slightly misleading.  The price markup on fuel can be quite large due to distribution costs and such.  Biodiesel could be made competitive with regular diesel at that price though if there was government/industry interest (waived taxes for "green" fuel).

One of the nice things about it, is that is can be mixed in any quantity with regular diesel.  I believe the only malady compared to regular diesel is that it has a greater tendency to clog fuel filters.
All of the literature i have read about it says it can be used with "little to no modifications" to the engine, but your guess is as good as mine as to what that means.  You would think that they would give more specifics on these sites considering that they give an in-depth description of the tetration process(how you make it).

[IntruderAlert]

Has anyone here read this book?
From the Fryer to the Fuel Tank: The Complete Guide to Using Vegetable Oil as an Alternative Fuel
Amazon.Com Link

it's supposed to be a pretty good read

[ChadTower]

With the way gas prices are rising, it will be a matter of a year before biodiesel, even with markups, is equal in pricing to oil based diesel, and only a couple of years before it is cost effective.

[danny_galaga]

As a follow up to the cost issue.

[ChadTower]

Our fuel prices are rapidly catching up.  In 1999 I was paying $.75/gallon.  Now I'm paying $2.15.  I expect to be paying $3.00 before this year is up.  That is some mighty fast price raising.

[fredster]

Lord knows you really care about having a president that actually works for *you* on this matter....as opposed to the oil companies.

Sigh, it's always Bush's fault. Never anybody else is it?

Let's see.  We make bio diesel from oil from corn.  Corn is grown using tractors and multiple passes with chemicals.  Then big machines are used to harvest it.

Oils from other types of vegies need to be used too.  How much is corn a bussel?  How much crisco is there in the world anyway?

Then you have to mix it in a fairly complicated chemical process and make the biodiesel.

We pump 1 or 2 million barrels of oil out of the ground every day. They have systems in place to convert it all over the US with no new capital expenditures.

MrC, economics and reality aren't your strongest suit are they?

Otherwise, you would have a car and would understand exactly how business works.  How's that bankruptcy thing going anyway?

[mmmPeanutButter]

Other than the availability of diesel in some places, there's no reason not to buy a modern diesel car today.

I know that diesel gets great mileage, but from what I hear, its the sulfur emmissions that are the problem.  Apparantly the sulfur content of the north american diesel is a lot higher than the european diesel.

Has anybody else heard this?

[KenToad]

Other than the availability of diesel in some places, there's no reason not to buy a modern diesel car today.

I know that diesel gets great mileage, but from what I hear, its the sulfur emmissions that are the problem. Apparantly the sulfur content of the north american diesel is a lot higher than the european diesel.

Has anybody else heard this?

I don't know for sure what the differences between Euro diesel and North American diesel are, but my fiancee's father has a diesel VW in Germany.  He fills it up with Biodiesel when the stuff is available.  It's not at every gas station, but I guess it's available at most. 

I wish I had more technical info. to share.  This is a great question/topic, Chad.  Thanks for bringing it up. 

I don't believe Kerry had the environmental answers, but Bush has been phenomenally bad in that area, not to mention being in bed with the Saudi monarchy and anyone in the petroleum biz. 

If the president does much of anything besides go on vacation, he sets the agenda, makes certain issues important just by mentioning them.
 
I had the pleasure of voting for Kucinich in the primaries, since I live in Ohio.  I won't even tell you guys who I voted for in the election.  I refuse to believe in the better of two bad choices.

Cheers,
KenToad

[quarterback]

Other than the availability of diesel in some places, there's no reason not to buy a modern diesel car today.

I know that diesel gets great mileage, but from what I hear, its the sulfur emmissions that are the problem.

[hanelyp]

Back to Biodiesel (Put down your tin-foil hats, folks)...

THe prmary problem isn't "the man" keeping you down.  The primary problem is one of scale.  BD is great for recycling already "used" veg oil, but at scale, it doesn't pan out.

Thank you for the sanity.  As with many 'alternate energy' ideas, it's simple economics, the alternate costing more(in the pocketbook at least) than the conventional.  When tech progress and rising energy prices change that, alternitives will take off.

[quarterback]

Back to Biodiesel (Put down your tin-foil hats, folks)...

THe prmary problem isn't "the man" keeping you down.

[danny_galaga]

Other than the availability of diesel in some places, there's no reason not to buy a modern diesel car today.

I know that diesel gets great mileage, but from what I hear, its the sulfur emmissions that are the problem.

[paigeoliver]

Um, wouldn't growing corn and other crops specifically to turn into fuel be cheaper than growing them to eat?

No one is going to eat it, which means it can be engineered solely for mass and such, it won't have to be edible, they won't have to use the expensive pesticides that make the stuff still safe for eatin'.

[HaRuMaN]

My bicycle gets good gas mileage.

[DrewKaree]

Um, wouldn't growing corn and other crops specifically to turn into fuel be cheaper than growing them to eat?

No one is going to eat it, which means it can be engineered solely for mass and such, it won't have to be edible, they won't have to use the expensive pesticides that make the stuff still safe for eatin'.

Genetically engineered corn?  gasp   I'm SURE there's gonna be a problem with that, too, which is prolly just one more reason it ain't happenin'

[abrannan]

Back to Biodiesel (Put down your tin-foil hats, folks)...

THe prmary problem isn't "the man" keeping you down.  The primary problem is one of scale.  BD is great for recycling already "used" veg oil, but at scale, it doesn't pan out.

Thank you for the sanity.  As with many 'alternate energy' ideas, it's simple economics, the alternate costing more(in the pocketbook at least) than the conventional.  When tech progress and rising energy prices change that, alternitives will take off.

I'll agree with part of that, it is about 'economics', but it's not nearly as "simple" as you suggest.

Your argument is the same one that was made about hybrid cars.  "We don't make them because the demand isn't there"   Right.  Tell that to the thousands of people on waiting lists.  My dad waited almost 2 years to get his Prius.

If you think people who make millions and millions of dollars off of petroleum, petroleum related products and petroleum related services are making decisions based on what's good for the consumer/planet/safety/whatever, you're insane.   

They make decisions that are the best for their wallets/investors/board/etc   And if that means legislation to keep biodiesel/diesel combo at 2% biodiesel max, or doing whatever they can to slow/prevent the progress of alternative energy sources, then that's what they do.  You don't mess around when you're talking about that kind of money.

I'm not talking financial economics, I'm talking energy economics.  If I have an oil well, and a certain level of "investment" fuel, I will eventually be able to pay back the "investment" fuel and run the whole operation off of oil I pump from the ground with oil to spare.  Not so with Biodiesel (yet).  Even if I have some startup fuel, I won't be able to produce more biodiesel than I use in production.  I have to put more energy into the system than I get out of it.  GM may be the answer, though.  Breed a higher-oil type of corn, or a type that ferments to ethanol more easily, or even just a higher yield corn that produces more per acre.  Shoot, it doesn't even have to be corn, it could be some new plant type that produces oil-sacks in place of kernels.  Maybe a grape based plant.

Supposedly, the thermal deploymerization folks have gotten their system "energy positive" and can run the process off of the water and natural gas byproducts of the process, leaving the light crude and pure carbon as profit.  Makes sense since they're using input products that have had a lot of energy stored in them.  I understand there may be issues with the process working above a certain scale, but as long as it's "energy positive" there's an investment point that will yield a profitable solution.  Plus it helps get rid of landfills, which can only be a good thing, even if they never are "energy positive".  I'd gladly spend 500 million barrels of oil to get 400 million barrels of oil and eliminate landfills.

[jbox]

Shoot, it doesn't even have to be corn, it could be some new plant type that produces oil-sacks in place of kernels.  Maybe a grape based plant.

Just remember to keep you eye shield in place during harvesting... 

[ChadTower]

If we can recycle turkey guts and make fuel, can't we find a better use for all these Mexicans running across the border?

[fredster]

Maybe we can use them? Hummm.....

[abrannan]

Treadmills hooked to generators?

(sorry, looking for a humane way to harvest the energy)

[ChadTower]

Then you'd have to grow corn to feed them, which is what we're trying to avoid in the first place.

[DarkKobold]

Using this technology you could dump in pretty much any organic waste and come out with usable fuel.

Jumpin' Jiggawatts!

[danny_galaga]

Shoot, it doesn't even have to be corn, it could be some new plant type that produces oil-sacks in place of kernels.

[NiN^_^NiN]

Alot of country perople use the biodiesel in there rodeo utes etc.

Most just get the fat/oil from fish and chip shops from there local town (most throw it away) and it last them the week till they go back and get some more.

You can use it without any diesel at all but you need to have the stuff heated up to a liquid form.

only downside of the people who use it on there farms is they smell like fish and chips.

But they have been doing it for ALOT of years and never had a problem the engine has been known to go to 300 or 400+ miles using bio diesel

Gotta love the aussie farmers who use it 

[hooded_paladin]

I am surprised the McDonald's isn't getting behind this.

[shmokes]

That would probably have health ramifications since, for all the grease, fries represent over half of America's intake of veggies.  Nobody wants to eat food that smells like their car.

[quarterback]

Well, eventually fries would start to smell like cars.

Mmmmmmmm.... new-car-smell fries......

[SirPeale]

Thought about reviving this thread, as every day I consider finding a beater diesel vehicle (VW Rabbit) and running it off WVO.

[dmsuchy]

I have a 2002 Jetta thats diesel and I love it. 40 miles to the gallon and plus! I live in Chicago and drove to the Kentucky derby and back and had a quarter tank of gas left, plus I filled up right outside of Chicago and got a free cup of coffe with any diesel purchase, still waiting to try biodiesel though.

[ChadTower]

It certainly looks as though biodiesel is needed more and more now.  With the price of gas doubling now within a week, now can these idiots concede that this is the best short term alternative?  It has taken a serious leap into cost effective at this point.

[Grasshopper]

I notice the proponents of this chose to skip right over abranans comments up there. The problem with all of the alternative forms of energy is that they don't really conserve anything, they just move the pollution/consumtion of energy to create them to another part of the manufacturing cycle. Electric, hydrogen, and biodiesel all seem to get their shortcomings overlooked by the hopeful.

It would be awesome to lose the dependence on Middle East oil. The sure way to watch that hellhole fall apart would be having them lose our oil money.

Well yes and no. Biodiesel generates just as much CO2 as ordinary petroleum but to produce it you have to grow plants that absorb an equivalent amount of CO2 from the atmosphere. So in theory biodiesel should not cause an increase in CO2 levels over the long term. This of course assumes that the corn (or whatever plant you're using) to produce the biodiesel is being grown on previously barren ground. If the biodiesel crops displace existing vegetation then CO2 levels will go up.

You're right about electric cars. With current technology it is impractical to run them off solarcells. So most of the electricity ultimately has to be generated by conventional power stations running on coal, oil etc.

[MaximRecoil]

I've seen a video of a small gas motor running on hydrogen. I'd much prefer that to be developed than "biodiesel", which I think would ultimately cost as much or more than what we are using now.

You fill the tank with water, add salt (or any electrolyte); or simply use sea water; and drop in a piece of cheap alloy ("According to the company's representative, this metal alloy is so inexpensive that an engine can run for four hours on a piece that would cost about half a cent [Canadian]") and the water breaks up into hydrogen and oxygen, the hydrogen being piped to the carburetor to fuel the motor, with the same performance as the traditional gasoline/air mixture.

http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/watercar/h20car2.htm