Biodiesel

[Grasshopper]

I've seen a video of a small gas motor running on hydrogen. I'd much prefer that to be developed than "biodiesel", which I think would ultimately cost as much or more than what we are using now.

You fill the tank with water, add salt (or any electrolyte); or simply use sea water; and drop in a piece of cheap alloy ("According to the company's representative, this metal alloy is so inexpensive that an engine can run for four hours on a piece that would cost about half a cent [Canadian]") and the water breaks up into hydrogen and oxygen, the hydrogen being piped to the carburetor to fuel the motor, with the same performance as the traditional gasoline/air mixture.

http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/watercar/h20car2.htm

Sounds a bit like a perpetual motion machine to me i.e. dodgy.

[MaximRecoil]

Sounds a bit like a perpetual motion machine to me i.e. dodgy.

It has nothing to do with perpetual motion. The motor is running off hydrogen, which is an excellent fuel. There is a video there of it running; though the concept is plenty sound enough that the video is superfluous.

[JCL]

I've seen a video of a small gas motor running on hydrogen. I'd much prefer that to be developed than "biodiesel", which I think would ultimately cost as much or more than what we are using now.

You fill the tank with water, add salt (or any electrolyte); or simply use sea water; and drop in a piece of cheap alloy ("According to the company's representative, this metal alloy is so inexpensive that an engine can run for four hours on a piece that would cost about half a cent [Canadian]") and the water breaks up into hydrogen and oxygen, the hydrogen being piped to the carburetor to fuel the motor, with the same performance as the traditional gasoline/air mixture.

http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/watercar/h20car2.htm

This is impossible as reported. Breaking up water into Hydrogen and Oxygen takes more energy than you get back in useful energy when you burn it. The energy has to come from somewhere. Water is not a net energy source.

The link is full of shite in so many ways. Just plain BS to anyone with any background in chemistry, physics, thermodynamics, etc.

Okay. I've read more of the page. It's a joke, right? Some of the claims are beyond absurd.

[MaximRecoil]

This is impossible as reported. Breaking up water into Hydrogen and Oxygen takes more energy than you get back in useful energy when you burn it. The energy has to come from somewhere. Water is not a net energy source.

There are many different designs for running a car off water (hydrogen). Here is another one from BMW - http://www.bmwworld.com/models/750hl.htm

And it is not a joke.

It isn't about net energy. No one is concerned about inputting more energy than one gets in return; since that always happens no matter what; according to the first law of thermodynamics. The point is to take something that is plentiful and cheap and convert into a useful form of energy; in BMW's case, solar power > electricity > electrolysis > hydrogen. In the case of the other link, chemical reaction of stated alloy with water + electrolyte > hydrogen.

The energy has to come from somewhere.

The energy to split the water in to hydrogen and oxygen is coming from the chemical reaction of the alloy with the water/electrolyte solution. The alloy is consumed in the process. Did you watch the video? It was produced by "Rolling Arts TV", which is a Los Angeles TV channel that focuses on the history of motorcycles. Not exactly tabloid television.

[ChadTower]

Can we keep this in the realm of the technologically possible?  Hydrogen as fuel is decades away.  This oil dependency and cost problem is current.  It is the gov't insistence on waiting for hydrogen that is causing nothing to happen.  If we insist on waiting for hydrogen, we may as well scrap hydrogen and go straight for cold fusion.

Biodiesel is usable and fully developed NOW.

[MaximRecoil]

Can we keep this in the realm of the technologically possible?  Hydrogen as fuel is decades away.

I suppose that 12 HP gasoline motor running in the video on hydrogen was filmed through a crystal ball?

[ChadTower]

Yay, a prototype 12HP engine!  Let's see how well that runs a car and is cost effective enough to manufacture ten million times a year.

[MaximRecoil]

Yay, a prototype 12HP engine!

The motor is an off the shelf gas motor. The fuel system would need to be developed of course, but that is what engineers are for.

There is also the air-powered car such as the "e.Volution" (compressed air is pretty cheap) - http://auto.howstuffworks.com/air-car.htm

Within the next two years, you could see the first air-powered vehicle motoring through your town. Most likely, it will be the e.Volution car that is being built by Zero Pollution Motors, in Brignoles, France. The cars have generated a lot of interest in recent years, and the Mexican government has already signed a deal to buy 40,000 e.Volutions to replace gasoline- and diesel-powered taxis in the heavily polluted Mexico City.

That article is getting pretty old now, so why can't I buy one of these air-powered cars?

I don't think we will see any of these things which are possible right now; too much money for powerful people to lose.

[Kremmit]

I looked into bio-diesel and waste veggie oil a while back for my business- I burn around 375 gallons of diesel a month.  To address some of the things I've read in this thread:

Bio-Diesel is not the same as Waste Vegetable oil:

The stuff you get out of the fryer at McDonalds is Waste Vegetable Oil.  A modified vehicle can burn this stuff directly, after you've filtered all the chunks out.  No chemistry needed.  You can also use Waste Vegetable Oil to make Bio-Diesel, but this is a more complex process, involving chemistry and some potentially dangerous chemicals.

Modifications to the engine:

For direct burning of waste oil:  you need a heating system added to heat the oil so that it's not too thick.  Also a spare tank, and a switching mechanism, so you can switch back and forth from veggie to petro.

For Bio-Diesel:  Cars made before 1994 need all the rubber parts in the fuel system replaced with parts made from Viton.  Viton is a synthetic that won't break down when bio is run through it.  The parts are readily available, because the high-sulphur diesel fuel that's being dispensed today eats those old rubber parts up anyway.  in 1994, the automakers switched to Viton anyway, for just this reason.  Diesel vehicles made since 1994 need no conversion.

Limited supply of Waste VegOil from restaurants

You can use brand new, non-waste veggie oil, too.  So the supply is only limited by what America can grow, or buy.

Limited availability of Diesel burning vehicles

That's only because most people don't buy them.  There are plenty of different vehicles being sold with diesel engines if you want one.

Not enough people using Diesel to justify putting it at the gas station

EVERY big truck you see runs on diesel.  So does all the heavy equipment you see.  A large percentage of full-sized pickups are diesel.  And more cars than you think.  When you see a new VW, do you ask the driver if it's a diesel or not?  Because a lot of them are.  A lot of other cars you see every day are/were sold with both gas and diesel engines, but how often do you check to see which one you're looking at?

Can't buy Bio-Diesel at the pump, except in a 2% blend

100% Bio is available at the pump in the SF Bay area:  http://www.berkeleybiodiesel.org/resources.html#retail (retailers @ bottom of page)

The big problem is that high-percentage Bio is not currently Federally approved as a motor vehicle fuel.  Those Bay Area guys had to get approval to sell it as an "experimental" fuel. 

It clogs your fuel filter

Sort of.  Petro Diesel leaves deposits all through your fuel system.  Bio acts as a solvent, and pulls all that junk loose, clogging the filters pretty quickly when you first start using it.  But after it gets it all clean, that problem goes away.

Waste Veg, on the other hand, will continue to cause clogs if your filtration is not good enough.  French fry chunks will clog it up every time!

One other problem..

.. is that if you run on Waste VegOil or make your own Bio, you're not paying your highway taxes, since those are added on to your fuel costs at the pump.  Not that I care if you want to stick it to the man, and it's unlikely you'll get caught.  But a few people have been caught, and prosecuted.  The way around it is to pay those taxes anyway, at the end of the year on your tax returns.  You can still stick it to the man- claim on your return that you only burned 100 gallons of homemade fuel that year, instead of the 1000 you really burned.  If you ever get popped for running non-taxed fuel, you can claim that was the day you ran a tank's worth of the 100 gallons you pay for on your return. 

[ChadTower]

That article is getting pretty old now, so why can't I buy one of these air-powered cars?

I don't think we will see any of these things which are possible right now; too much money for powerful people to lose.

Yet, you could walk to any retail dealership and buy a diesel car today, and fuel it with Biodiesel without invalidating your warranty.

[MaximRecoil]

Yet, you could walk to any retail dealership and buy a diesel car today, and fuel it with Biodiesel without invalidating your warranty.

That's fine but I don't see biodiesel as being much cheaper. Either way, it is something that we have to depend on "them" to not gouge us on the price; it is all in "their" hands. I want something free or cheap that no one controls the manufacture of or can tax; like air, water or sunlight; or a combination of these things.

Call me a conspiracist, but I don't think "the powers that be" will allow it; or at least will do their damnedest to prevent it from becoming anything more than a novelty that you read about somewhere. That "e.Volution" debuted 5 years ago; where in the hell is it? I should be able to buy several year old models for cheap by now. For all intents and purposes; it is free to fuel. Free. Biodiesel by its very nature will never approach "free"; will be taxed, controlled and price "gouged" the same as the current petroleum products that we use.

[ChadTower]

Don't see it as much cheaper?  It actually IS cheaper, with the prices where they are today.  As gas prices continue to rise, so will the disparity in price.  This doesn't even take into account the near zero pollution that pure Biodiesel gives you.

[MaximRecoil]

Don't see it as much cheaper?

[ChadTower]

A dollar a gallon?  Dude, water is more than a dollar a gallon.

[MaximRecoil]

A dollar a gallon?

[ChadTower]

and makes up what? 2/3 of the earth's surface?

You have come up with a way to drink nonpotable salt water?

If gas could sell for roughly $1 a gallon for 20 years then it could sell for that now. It's only been 5 years since it was last near a dollar a gallon; and less than 8 years ago it was 89 cents a gallon. 

Only in the US.  Everywhere else it has been well over $3/gallon for a long time.

[jbox]

You have come up with a way to drink nonpotable salt water?

Duh, it's called a straw chad. Sure it tastes a bit funny, but when you start to retch from drinking all that free water, you can always head north to grab some of that free healthcare to fix you up. 

[MaximRecoil]

You have come up with a way to drink nonpotable salt water?

I'm sure you realize that all of the water on the earth's surface is constantly being recycled into the atmosphere through evaporation and then it rains and it never rains salt water; you know, because water vapor doesn't have a salt transport mechanism, lol. So yes, all of the water on the earth's surface (and in the atmosphere) contributes to what you can drink for free; i.e. some of the water that was in the ocean will evaporate; condense and fall as rain and end up in a fresh body of water and vice-versa. If the water cycle on earth was in a state of stasis then you may have a point with your comment. It is not (you know, because it is called a cycle); and you don't.

Only in the US.  Everywhere else it has been well over $3/gallon for a long time.

They simply have a different tax structure and applicable regulations than we do; which has nothing to do with the actual cost of gasoline.

[ErikRuud]

Fuel Cells or On-Board Water splitting are not the only wasy to run a car on Hydrogen.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/TECH/science/03/16/hydrogen.cars/

BMW has had hydrogen powered cars in developement for a long time.

Big Oil politics aside, one of the biggest problem with hydrogen powered vehicles is the perceived danger.  Tell someone that they are going to drive around with a tank of hydrogen and the first thing that pops into their head is images of the Hindenburg disaster.

[ChadTower]

Notice they never mention how much those cars would cost to buy.  Doubtless, they are prototypes, and to mass produce them, they would not be cost effective to bring to market.

That is not market viability.

[Dartful Dodger]

Tell someone that they are going to drive around with a tank of hydrogen and the first thing that pops into their head is images of the Hindenburg disaster.

Since the tanks will probably be under their seats, their heads wont be the first place the disaster will pop into.

[ChadTower]

Yes, that thought process will occur to anyone who is unaware that gasoline is highly combustible as well.

[SirPoonga]

This is impossible as reported. Breaking up water into Hydrogen and Oxygen takes more energy than you get back in useful energy when you burn it. The energy has to come from somewhere. Water is not a net energy source.

There are many different designs for running a car off water (hydrogen). Here is another one from BMW - http://www.bmwworld.com/models/750hl.htm

And it is not a joke.

It isn't about net energy. No one is concerned about inputting more energy than one gets in return; since that always happens no matter what; according to the first law of thermodynamics. The point is to take something that is plentiful and cheap and convert into a useful form of energy; in BMW's case, solar power > electricity > electrolysis > hydrogen. In the case of the other link, chemical reaction of stated alloy with water + electrolyte > hydrogen.

The energy has to come from somewhere.

The energy to split the water in to hydrogen and oxygen is coming from the chemical reaction of the alloy with the water/electrolyte solution. The alloy is consumed in the process. Did you watch the video? It was produced by "Rolling Arts TV", which is a Los Angeles TV channel that focuses on the history of motorcycles. Not exactly tabloid television.

maxim is right.  Iceland plans to go completely hydrogen/geothermal in like 40 years.  The only thing in their country right now that uses oil is transportation.  But htey are lucky to have all the geothermal energy they can use.

now, about the piece of metal that gets added.  The oxygen in the water must react with it (and the salt) leaving the hydrogen to go to the tank.  I'm wondering what is left.   Would you have to clean your tank out once and awhile?  Obviously something is oxidizing.

[Dartful Dodger]

Except gasoline isn't compressed.

[Kremmit]

Except gasoline isn't compressed.

Gas blows up just fine without any compression.  And compressed-gas tanks are made tons stronger than the flimsy sheet-metal tanks your gasoline is in.  An impact sufficient to pop your Hydrogen tank is almost certainly strong enough to pop your gas tank.  And likely to pop you, too, whether or not the fuel ignites.

As long as we're at it, batteries are full of acid, so they're not exactly super-safe, either. 

Bio-Diesel is no more flamable than Petro-Diesel.  Hold a match to a puddle of diesel and watch it NOT catch on fire- it only combusts when put under enormous pressure inside the cylinder.  And as for straight vegetable oil: Who's worried that the Corn Oil in the kitchen cupboard is going to explode?

[ChadTower]

When is the last time it reached a couple hundred degrees in your cupboard?  Or the last time someone threw lit matches in there?

[Dartful Dodger]

And likely to pop you, too, whether or not the fuel ignites.

That's the problem.  A fuel tank cracks, a hydrogen tank pops.  Whether or not it ignites the results with a hydrogen tank will be violent, and that violence will be happening under your seat.

[ChadTower]

So?  The same risk is run 1000 times a day at Taco Bell, no one is saying that shouldn't happen.

[Dartful Dodger]

So?

[hanelyp]

Biodiesel is usable and fully developed NOW.

If you think biodiesel can be sold competitively against standard diesel, please give it a try.

[Kremmit]

From http://www.biofueloasis.com/:

We sell high quality commercial biodiesel that meets ASTM standards. We prefer to sell biodiesel that is made from recycled vegetable oil. Our current price is $3.49 per gallon and includes sales tax, state excise tax, and federal excise tax.

That's about what they were selling it for a couple months ago.  Since then, petro prices have jumped a good .50 per gallon.

Regular Diesel is currently selling for $3.29 at the cheapest place in Berkeley, according to this cheap gas finder site.

That's close enough to be competetive, when you consider the benefits of switching to Bio.  Admittedly, Bio's still not actually cheaper, but how long do you think it will take for regular Diesel to outpace it with the petroleum situation being what is?

[ChadTower]

Sweet! 

[sirwoogie]

Much of the adoption of Biodeisel is simple ignorance, inconvenience to find it at every corner, and some of the side effects that it has.

While Biodeisel is not exactly something that will save us ecologically, it is better than our present situation. Ignorance of biodiesel is the most common. It really isn't that hard to start using; most diesel engines will work with little to no modification, depending on the blend and the quality of the components in the engine. Bio still isn't total diesel, and can have various negative impacts if you don't fully test it with the engine you're pumping it into.

I recently purchased a decently sized tractor. I am also fortunate that I have a Biodiesel aware gas station not more than few miles from my house (both B25 and B100). The price of it is about 10% higher than normal Diesel from the other pumps. The issue I have is that I can't get a consistent answer from a dealer, web boards, or the vendor itself on what issues I might have with either blend. Remember, that if the engine can't take it, then I can have problems with gasket failures up to chamber seal problems. Yikes! I can't take the risk. I feel myself resourceful enough to do the research, but there is simply not enough data in the field to educate a casual consumer.

The other ignorance we have is that diesel is noisy, stinky, and doesn't have the "oomph" that a normal unleaded fuel has. While many of these have basis in fact, they are not the whole truth. Car manufacturers could overcome many of these things if they put the engineering behind it (or forced us to change our perceptions). They've done this in other parts of the world mostly because of demand and/or mandate.

The inconvenience comes from gas companies not providing it cost effectively everywhere, and the car companies stating they have no demand to do diesel because you can't buy that fuel everywhere. It's a catch-22. Supply and Demand is a real economic tool, and it has defined our culture for the type of car we have in the USA.

I don't disagree on the opinion that the political parties in power have some part in this. But they also can be convinced by popular opinion if enough of us all said the same thing. The debate over a republican does this, a democrat does that seems insignificant to me. They all have vested interest in foreign oil, even if the party agenda is contrary to it. There is simply to much power, influence and money in foreign oil to ignore.

[sirwoogie]

That's the problem.  A fuel tank cracks, a hydrogen tank pops.  Whether or not it ignites the results with a hydrogen tank will be violent, and that violence will be happening under your seat.

Then you engineer around it safely. Most alternative fuel sources being considered have some inherent risk of cause an explosion and/or catching on fire. That is unless you consider the alternatives such as the Fred Flinstone running engine or the perpetual mostion gyro-car. You might say solar, but reserve energy has to be kept somewhere when the sun isn't out, and that is some type of battery that has risks.

[ChadTower]

My big hope for Biodiesel is actually more in the areas of national security and the farm industry.  If we were to move to a farm product based fuel system, my God, the farm industry would go from 90% dead in the US to dominating the entire plains portion of the continent nearly overnight... plus, a revolutionary shift in foreign policy as we nearly eliminate our dependence on foreign oil.  Global threats in Iraq?  Who cares?  All they have is crude oil over there, we don't need that anymore.

We would be able to move back into a world power in terms of domestic production again.  That was what really built the US into the world's dominant economy and the death of domestic production is what has caused our downfall over the last generation or two.  Really, if WE moved to a naturally grown fuel source, much of the world would follow, and who has more farmland than we do?  Not very many places...

[shmokes]

I'm buying a 2006 Honda Civic.  Not the hybrid one, cos it's just out of my price range, but the regular one gets 30/40  (EPA, not real) which ain't bad.

Um....I don't think that had anything to do with this thread.  I'm just excited about the car, I think.

[ChadTower]

Heh.  My Civic has been great when people aren't stealing it or breaking into it.  Mine is a 99 and has always gotten about 35 highway and 27-30 city.

[shmokes]

The new ones are really cool.  I test drove a bunch of cars and everything else just felt like a nicer, upgraded version of my '98 Dodge Neon which is finally retiring.  The '06 Civic feels like a next generation vehicle.  It was a ball to drive.  They're quite a bit quicker than previous models.  Honda's clearly trying to shift the Civic's market from Baby Boomers to Generation Y, so the new design probably alienates a lot of previous Civic owners.  It hooked me, though.

[ChadTower]

You need one that runs on Biodiesel.

[shmokes]

Biodiesel is for old ladies and pedophiles.