Historic Event Tonight?

[shmokes]

The disparity in legal resources between giant corporations and individuals or small businesses is the reason god invented the contingency fee.  And contingency fees are tightly regulated, Xiaou.  A lawyer can't take 95% of an award.  Limitations typically look something like this:

Under Business and Profession Code Section 6146, a contract for a contingency fee to represent any person seeking damages against a health care provider may collect 40 percent of the first $50,000 recovered. The scale then allows collection of 33 percent of the next $50,000 recovered, 25 percent of the next $500,000, and 15 percent of the next $600,000.

Don't get me wrong, the Sonies and Microsofts of the world have a ginormous legal advantage.  But that's not a defect of the patent system.  It's a defect of the entire judicial system and, more importantly, capitalism.  

As for patent officers stealing inventions and falsifying dates and false imprisonments and murdering applicants, well, that just goes with the territory.  If you want to patent a product you gotta be willing to deal with a few piano-wire wielding clerks at the patent office.  Seriously, Xiaou, that's just the sort of thing that kinda needs a citation.  

[SavannahLion]

The people who succeed, are people who have friends in Powerful places...  and those
people are forever locked in place.  Their souls Sold.  Forever in some form of debt,
and more than likely, some unscrupulous predicaments.

Where do I sign up?

[RayB]

Seriously, Xiaou, that's just the sort of thing that kinda needs a citation.  

How can there be citations when they've all been silenced by the Illuminati?

[shmokes]

True that . . . I'm kinda surprised they keep letting Xiaou live, frankly.  He seems to be quite Savvy to their schemes and intent on spreading the TRUTH.  It's quite possible that his ability to make a person's heart explode from 1" away simply makes him a tricky and difficult target.

[danny_galaga]

 You got me wrong.  I look on this as "Its very possible". 

For me, i look at this and say "It's very unlikely this works". The onus is on the claimant to prove it. Seems to me this is something really worth proving...
And from what i saw in that video, all they had to display was a very inefficient motor/dynamo 

 Most average people dont file patents until they are near production level.
Filing a patent isnt easy or cheap.  Which makes it Extremely difficult for the
average joe who had a great invention, and Should be able to make money from
it.

I shouldn't but i'm going to argue from a selected instance. In this case, my friends father. He invented  external plastic louvres for the rear window of cars. He was an average Joe. he managed to patent it, AND take his former boss to court for trying to steal the rights. He did this with a public defence lawyer no less. He later sold the patent for what seems to me a pittance, but he was never good with money. There was never a time when he could have produced this himself.

HA! Now I talk about this, do you know what he's been working on for the last ten years or so? And having different people give him money for research. Go on, i bet you can't guess 

I always felt embarrassed when he'd show me his latest iteration. I never had the heart to tell him it wasn't going to work. I'm a wuss like that...

[protokatie]

Magnets don't keep their same magnetism forever. What do we do when we run out of magnetic material to mine? We're no better off.

Magnets can be manufactured. In fact most magnets in use today have been manufactured. Just need the correct material (even iron will work in a pinch) in a molten form in a strong magnetic field applied as it cools down. I am sure there are other ways to make something a permanent magnet, too.

[SavannahLion]

Jesus Xiaou, run out of magnetic material to mine? I'll bank on an intergalactic highway coming through here before this planet turns into another Psychlo.

[danny_galaga]

I'm wondering if most people understand that the conventional way we generate electricity is with magnetic fields? It's very simple- pass a conductor through a magnetic field. Voila! Electricity!Make that motion circular so it passes through again and you have a generator. Michael Faraday first did this in the 19th century. Nothing magical or 'free' about it.This is all i saw in the video clip. So everyone, forget about the magnets already! If that's all this crowd has to show, well then, they are about 150 years too late...

[CheffoJeffo]

* CheffoJeffo  pops popcorn and stocks the fridge in anticipation of Xiaou's thoughts on Airnergy

[Vanguard]

Xiaou2 is definitely lacking in the most basic knowledge of physics.   In P&R he thought that the government was covering up the fact that the poles had shifted (thus causing our strange weather).  He wasn't aware that a caveman could tell if either the physical or magnetic poles had shifted by simple observation.   I'm not surprised he thinks we mine magnets.

What strikes me as odd is that he continues to display his impressive lack of knowledge on a daily basis.   I would think after a few people point out the fallacies in his logic, that he would endeavor to educate himself.

[RayB]

Hey asswipes, I'm the one who brought up mining magnetic material. Some magnetic material is naturally occurring and some is man-made.
http://thescienceexperts.com/answers/where-do-magnets-come-from

Magnets can be manufactured. In fact most magnets in use today have been manufactured. Just need the correct material (even iron will work in a pinch) in a molten form in a strong magnetic field applied as it cools down. I am sure there are other ways to make something a permanent magnet, too.

Right, and so considering the energy spent making them, we're not that better off than making and using batteries. The Orbo is just a very delicate electric motor. So far they've shown nothing that shows production of energy above what it consumes. Though they and their believers keep harping about "no back EMF". Ultimately, like was said above, the burden of proof/explanation is on them, not us.

*edit* see below:

[Smoker]

CheffoJeffo has figured it out. their perpetual motion machine can only be used to power WIFI routers!
These scams ALWAYS turn out the same.
If someone ever does figure this out, they will never CARE if you believe them. they really won’t need anyone to.

[protokatie]

Hey asswipes, I'm the one who brought up mining magnetic material. Some magnetic material is naturally occurring and some is man-made.
http://thescienceexperts.com/answers/where-do-magnets-come-from

Magnets can be manufactured. In fact most magnets in use today have been manufactured. Just need the correct material (even iron will work in a pinch) in a molten form in a strong magnetic field applied as it cools down. I am sure there are other ways to make something a permanent magnet, too.

Right, and so considering the energy spent making them, we're not that better off than making and using batteries. The Orbo is just a very delicate electric motor. So far they've shown nothing that shows production of energy above what it consumes. Though they and their believers keep harping about "no back EMF" as if that's supposed to mean anything, and yet no one can explain how/why that's a great and wonderful thing. Which like was said above, the burden of proof/explanation is on them, not us.

Oh don't get me wrong. I wasn't defending Tigger's little gadget, I was just pointing out that magnets were typically manufactured. The device Tigger got all worked up about is obviously a scam or maybe just a publicity stunt.

[RayB]

*Note*
To be fair to Xiau's original intent, Steorn finally posted their videos demonstrating part of the device. (They had posted a video yesterday talking about the Orbo copies people have built and posted videos of on Youtube, but they seem to have taken that video down).

However once again, it's just a partial explanation and there will be yet another presentation next week going into energy generation:

http://www.youtube.com/user/SteornOfficial#p/u/4/bzcZDr1AcEU

[Xiaou2]

Actually, its still up, under this label: "Steorn examine Orbo replication attempts"

 They say they are releasing multiple demos over this entire months time,  so as to
be able to include peoples  "on-the-fly"  requests for specific tests.

 At the final stage, they will let anyone bring their own test equipment and test
for themselves, as well as look over their collected data to this point.

[SavannahLion]

Hey asswipes, I'm the one who brought up mining magnetic material. Some magnetic material is naturally occurring and some is man-made.
http://thescienceexperts.com/answers/where-do-magnets-come-from

Oh ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, apologies to Xiaou then. After trying to dig through more chapters than in War and Peace it's hard to follow his junk sometimes.

They say they are releasing multiple demos over this entire months time,  so as to
be able to include peoples  "on-the-fly"  requests for specific tests.

 At the final stage, they will let anyone bring their own test equipment and test
for themselves, as well as look over their collected data to this point.

Get back to us in February then.

Seriously. Forget this showing off ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---. First thing on my agenda would be to get investors (which this guy seems to have no trouble getting  ) and scale this ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- up to ginormous dimensions, set that acrylic crap spinning and undercut every power company on the planet. A guy like this wouldn't be afraid of governments kocking him off, he should be terrified of PG&E snipers. 

What's that phrase? "The proof is in the pudding." I like chocolate.

[RayB]

Actually, its still up, under this label: "Steorn examine Orbo replication attempts"

Yeah that's the vid, but it's a re-post. All the original comments (including a critical few that were mine) are gone.

[danny_galaga]

Though they and their believers keep harping about "no back EMF". Ultimately, like was said above, the burden of proof/explanation is on them, not us.

And this is the thing that gets me. Back EMF is a necessary element for an efficient electric motor. And for a generator, you need the field windings to pick up as much of the magnetic field as possible. Making electricity electro-mechanically means resistance. Which equals drag. Which means a force must be applied. A very crude analogy of what i see their machine as is an 8 cylinder car that is deliberately set up so it only ever runs on 3 cylinders. I'm referring to the retarded idea of having those windings set up so that they don't do much of anything. I suspect this is to 1) look all "nuovo scientific" and 2) less drag means it can just spin longer.

But for $1000 i'll make em something that spins magnitudes longer. All i need is some ball races, a stand, and a 200 kg steel flywheel...

[Xiaou2]

Non Steorn Demo on how the Coils work



Non Steorn Demo on zeroing out Coil BEMF with proper placement




 As far as I have understood it.. Bemf is what causes ineffecient motors.  Its also what
causes the current and voltages to reverse directions as it surges.   The faster
the motor goes, the greater the bemf issue.

 As Ive understood,  the typical magnetic motor issue has to do with the 'gate'.
Where as once you pass the magnets by the attraction point where they have sped
up...  they cant pass each other without the same level of pull in reverse.  Thus, its
like putting on the brakes.    Many people Think they can solve the gate issue mechanically, but they simply end up realizing that mechanical devices consume
the power you are trying to generate.  Thus, no way to close the loop.

 With Steorns device... they are not using electronic coils for the pulling force.
The Ferrite type material is already doing to work of pulling the rotor magnets towards
it.   As soon as the two magnetic sources get near each other,  they send a small
amount of juice into the coils.  This changes the ferrites magnetic properties I believe...
neutralizing it,  so that the rotor can pass by it without Any reversed pull.

 In the process of the field collapse in the coils/core material, Somehow, they Gain a
net in current/voltage as well.  The simple act of changing the core ferrite magnetic
properties, seems to generate a Gain of output.

 The coils then seem to be used to pick up the energy, and excess energy, without any
bemf Reversals, or braking effects.  They are using this gain, to charge the battery that
is driving the system.


 This is vastly different than a typical generator, in that there is no harsh friction
and resistance to overcome... and yet, they still continue to gain energy.

 You may also not realize, that they are using magnetic bearings too.  This further
reduces friction loss, to almost nothing.

 
 As far as I have understood, they do not even need a spinning rotor at all.  They can
make a solid-state version of the technology that needs no moving parts to gain
energy.  

 They chose this method of generation merely to show excess energy in
multiple ways:  Heat from coils, Work from Rotor, and excess energy from the cores
change.   Its a lot easier for people to grasp, and harder for people to claim
that they are hiding something, using hidden electronic trickery.

 They are also trying to maintain Some proprietary secrets, such as whatever
the core material inside those coils is made of... else the competition for production
would have a huge head-start in design and development of an actual product
put to market.

 This seems to be why they originally chose an  All-Magnet version of the tech for the
Original showing years ago.  However, that was not built by them, and it failed due
to poor mechanical design, and tolerances that were very tight - getting out of whack.

[Malenko]

so I can buy/make a small one and not have to plug my arcade machine into the wall? I'll take 3

[RayB]

As far as I have understood it.. Bemf is what causes ineffecient motors.  Its also what
causes the current and voltages to reverse directions as it surges.   The faster
the motor goes, the greater the bemf issue.

I've been reading up some more myself (don't ask me why) and BEMF is the natural "opposing force" effect that happens due to .. well, that's the laws of nature for ya (opposite reaction to every action type of thing).

So you're right, eliminating BEMF brings it more efficiency (as a motor), however.....

This is vastly different than a typical generator, in that there is no harsh friction
and resistance to overcome... and yet, they still continue to gain energy.

 You may also not realize, that they are using magnetic bearings too.  This further
reduces friction loss, to almost nothing.

... now you're getting ahead of them. They have NOT demonstrated ANY power generation. They even said so themselves that they won't be demonstrating that until "later this month".

So so far all they can believably claim is getting closer to 100% efficiency. (Or maybe I should say closer to 99.99999% just to be within the laws of physics. ;-) ).

PS: Cheffo, how's your popcorn?

[CheffoJeffo]

PS: Cheffo, how's your popcorn?

I'm out of popcorn, but the fridge is still well-stocked.

[danny_galaga]

Sigh...

Here are the main reasons you actually WANT back EMF in a motor. First point to remember is that there is no such thing as a man made perpetual motion device. Remember this as i explain why you NEED back EMF.

By now everyone reading this thread will know that when a magnetic field passes through a conductor, an electrical current is produced. Conversely, if you run a current through a conductor, it can create an opposing force to a nearby magnetic field. Faraday loved this notion, because the functions are totally reversible, which strangely enough fitted in with his religious beliefs.

So, imagine we have a motor. We apply a current to its wound fields, they create an opposing force to the fixed fields. The details of construction are irrelevant. Say this motor is 12V, like the Steorn demo motors. The fields have quite a low resistance. So when you apply the voltage to the fields, there is a high current draw. Lets say the fields have 1 Ohm resistance. Voltage /current x resistance. You have 12 amps of current.

But hang on, lets go back. Remember that  when a magnetic field passes through a conductor, an electrical current is produced. It doesn't matter that you have just applied current to create a motor. Do you not still have a conductor passing through a magnetic field? Yes, you do. Even as the device is functioning as a motor, it is generating a current. This is back electro motive force. So what of it? Well, naturally the back EMF is less than the applied voltage. But lets have a look at what happens (using ball park figures for demonstration purposes).

Situation 1) Voltage is applied to motor. At rest it is infinitely slow. V=12,R=1, A=12

Situation 2) Motor is now spinning at say 500 rpm. It is producing some back EMF. Say 1V. So now total voltage applied is 11V (12V-1V). So now V=11, R=1, A=11.

Situation 3) Motor is now spinning at 1000 rpm. Back EMF is now 2V. So now V=10,R=1,A=10

Situation 4) Obviously this is an infinitely variable scale. Lets just skip to 10,000 RPM. Back EMF is now say 11.5V (in real life nothing is linear, there is always some sort of curve) So now V=0.5,R=1,A=0.5

edit: i should point out that situations 1 to 4 normally happen in a split second. Very desirable in a lot of cases. For instance, at rest a car starter can draw up to say 500 AMPS. When it is spinning, with no load, maybe 20 AMPS. With a load, say 150 AMPS.

This is both what an electric motor does, and what we desire. Because there is no such thing as a man made perpetual motion machine. Why do we desire this? Because the current draw is directly proportion to the torque produced. Therefore, Our little electric motor has full torque at rest, and least torque at high RPM. This is exactly what is needed in most cases. For example, an electric car, an electric drill. A starter motor for a petrol engine.

A motor is a motor is a motor. They are there to fulfill real mechanical needs. Most of our needs for electrical motors demand torque. Not all mind you. ceiling fans have very little torque. They use induction motors, utilising the single phase a/c mains current instead of a commutator or speed controller. Because of this, they have very little torque, since there is only a narrow range of speeds the motor is designed to work in.

I would bet you a dollar that when they applied a load to that 'regular' motor in the video, they probably used say two fingers on the shaft. And i bet that for the 'perpetual motion machine' (lets call a spade a spade) they could have put a fingertip on top of the shaft for the same speed reduction. That's how little torque that thing probably has. Therefore it takes very little to keep it going. But what's the point of that? Take away the power and it will take longer to stop than a regular motor. Maybe even magnatudes longer. Have they invented the ultimate 'it takes a long time to stop' machine? No, my 200kg flywheel would trump it...

[danny_galaga]

Lesson in basic induction part 2 (yes i know, there wasn't really a part 1)

There is a place for low torque devices that use the properties of electromagnetic induction. Lets do a simple thought experiment. Imagine you have a plastic cup on a shaft supported by bearings. inside the cup is a steel wheel that fits closely. It is also on a supported shaft. The steel wheel is mildly magnetic. If you spin the wheel, will its magnetic force make the plastic cup turn?

Now, suppose the cup is made of aluminium, not plastic. Will the magnetic force of the steel wheel make the aluminium cup turn? The amswer is yes!

How come? Aluminium isn't magnetic, any more than plastic. But, aluminium is a conductor. This is important. remember, if a magnetic field passes through a conductor, a current is produced. So a current is produced in the aluminium cup. This conductor however is not a wire, guiding the current anywhere. The current stays within the cup. You could say it is a dead short. Current is flowing however. What happens to a conductor when current flows through it? It becomes magnetic. Now both the steel wheel and the aluminium cup attract each other. The cup spins.

This is the basis for the humble speedometer. Or was until electronic ones started to appear in the 1990's.

That's the sort of use Steorns 'invention' can be put to. A speedometer has very little back EMF...

[RayB]

Can't let this thread die off without a proper wrap-up. Well here it was, finally after much talk and delay, climactic "proof" of over-unity (more energy out than in)!!

Well... not really. That's what the dude says, but once again, no proof shown unless you want to take him at his word:

Part 1 - blah blah blah


Part 2 - blah blah 327% blah


No voltmeter showing a battery or capacitor being charged up with the "excess energy". No lights being powered... nothing but a squiggly line on an oscilloscope that the layperson has to take at his word is "excess energy".

The key to all this is at 8:30. They sell developer licenses for 419euros. Lets say they got even just 1000 hobbyists to buy licenses so they can play around with this. That's half a million USD. I could live pretty good off that. You? And lets not forget that the license comes with a Non Disclosure Agreement so licensoees can't publicly say it doesnt work.

I guess we'll have to wait and see (again) if their licensees break that agreement or not.

[Xiaou2]

$500,000 with 16+  employees wont last that long... especially technically minded
employee'$ , and high dollar annual salary's like Sean probably gets.  They have
a fulltime film crew documenting their adventure.  Im sure that isnt cheap.

 IMOP, Its also highly doubtful that they would actually get a 1000 hobbyist to shell out half a grand...  Especially considering the Skepticism, and not even knowing IF you
could actually build the thing accurately enough to get the same results.  
 
 In fact, that figure is a drop in the bucket compared to the money they have on loan.

 
 As far as Ive understood:

 1) They showed there is no "Loss" shown from spinning the Rotar.
 2) They show a Gain, from the magnetic interactions that happen when the Rotar spins.
 3) The Excess gain of current (spike) is used to recharge the battery.
 4) All the rest of the power is spent in creating Heat in the coils.
 
 In this machine configuration,  there is not enough current captured to keep the
battery from reduction.   However, as the demo showed, the energy was
rising 8% each turn... and that was without the extra pickup coil enabled.


 SO...Every time the magnetic interaction occurs, there is a gain... and that
gain is independent of the rotar spinning.  Thats amazing.

 Sadly, the Tech is not better displayed for us layman...  But then again, its still
better than the original finding... which was simply some magnet spinning slowly
on a shaft across a meter / sensor.

 The effect is shown, and so now its up to skilled and experienced
mechanical and electrical engineers to build a large scale device that actually
can capture the energy in a useful way.


 According to what they are saying,  they are allowing qualified people to schedule
independent testing starting wed.

[Ed_McCarron]

 

[shmokes]

Xiaou,

When my father died he had an investment account in Nevada that I did not know about.  It has over 3/4 of a million dollars in it.  The problem is, his estate was probated in Utah and we did not know about this account at the time.  Now Scottrade will not release those funds unless we get a lawyer to go through a second probate in Nevada.  I need $5000 to do this in order to hire a lawyer and pay all the court filing fees.  Unfortunately, I am a college student trying to raise a daughter while bringing in no income.  I just don't have the ability to scrape together the $5000.  But if you will send me $5000, I can hire the lawyer to get the money, in which case I will split it with you, 50/50.  I don't know what it will be after taxes, but I guarantee at least $250,000.  I know that $250,000 seems like a lot of money to just give away, but right now I don't have anything, so it's like giving away $250,000 that I never had anyway, so it is worth it to me so that I can at least get the other $250,000-$400,000 which which I can pay off all my student loans and start my new career without any financial burdens hanging over my family.  Please let me know if you are interested and I will give you an address where you can send a money order.

God bless you,
shmokes

[Xiaou2]

Exactly the kind of witless attempt at humor I expect from a drone like yourself.
 
 I find it amusing that you actually Think you are funny.  (let alone intelligent)

 But even more funny, is that fact that you actually put some time into it.
 
 WOW.

 I feel embarrassed for you.

[shmokes]

 

[Ed_McCarron]

Wait!  I've figured it out!

The extra energy is coming from the HAARP program!

 

[RayB]

I dont have access to P&R. I saw that HAARP thread had been moved, and you cant see who started it when its moved, but my first thought was "Xiau2" !

Next you will be telling us all about orgonite.

BTW, I just discovered an over-unity device in my home. It's my cat! She outputs lots of static discharge. I'm pretty sure it's more than the food input.

What do I do about that? Humidifier?

[saint]

I dont have access to P&R.

All you have to do is ask... and abandon your soul at the door

[RayB]

I dont have access to P&R.

All you have to do is ask... and abandon your soul at the door

No thanks. I waste my breath enough on topics I shouldn't give two thoughts to already... 

[Xiaou2]

orgonite

 Get Real.

 Just because I believe that its possible that typical Science may have overlooked
something (or simply never ran into it)... Does not mean I believe that sitting in some
odd shaped box will make you a Superbeing.

 If you would have told a typical scientist about Quantum Mechanics 50 yrs ago...
they would have laughed you out of existence.

 Its very easy to poke and point at what we do not understand..  And even harder
for the Intellectuals to admit / realize that they dont know everything or that
*Gasp*   They are Wrong!

 Good thing we have  'dumb'-smart  people who never give up, have Open minds,
... and seek to push the envelope... else we wouldnt have any new discoveries.

 
 Ray... I bet you actually Believe that the President actually has Power dont you?
heh

[CheffoJeffo]

If you would have told a typical scientist about Quantum Mechanics 50 yrs ago... they would have laughed you out of existence.

Not really ... the science was fairly well-established by then.

Perhaps you should LEARN some science before trying to TEACH us about science.

[shmokes]

. . . they would have laughed you out of existence.

Is this possible?  The intellectuals would probably say no, but the more daring among us, those of us with that spark--that elusive flash of genius--we say, maybe . . . just maybe . . . .  And then you'll be sorry!

[RayB]

You know what... Buy an Orbo license Xiau2.

The comments here are entertaining by the way...
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.
(how do i link to the comments without the video appearing here?)

You seem to excuse Steorn on the basis that they dont need to explain it in layman's terms, yet their choice of venue and exhibition of this tech is very "layman". It would have taken their engineer all of a day to rig the device up to a cell phone charger, or large capacitor with a voltmeter display, or similar.

If the tech works like they claim, they should be able to run it off only a capacitor, and hand-start it (or start it with the air gun like in past demos).

[Xiaou2]

 They have said they can not use a capacitor because they discharge too slow
for what they need.   As fast as a cap seems..  its still a bottleneck (for voltage I
believe), where as a battery yeilds instantly what they need for that moment
in time.

 As for Overunity, it does not have to be closed loop to be Overunity.  Amazing
how people dont seem to understand that concept.

 What they have said makes sense.  However, that does not mean Im gona lay
down cash either.  I am in no way qualified to be able to reproduce the effect to
test it for myself.

[shmokes]

(how do i link to the comments without the video appearing here?)

You could use Tinyurl.