Historic Event Tonight?

[Xiaou2]

(please excuse me, as Im sure I may be getting some of the details wrong)

     www.steorn.com

 Steorn has recently started to Demonstrate their new Energy creation technology.
Its on display in Dublin Ireland currently, to the public.

  Their claim is that the device creates more energy output than what is
being fed into it.   

 Tonight, they will be running a live test and demonstration..
Which I believe is set to prove it.


  Years back, they had made a completely magnetic version of the technology,
but supposedly, the bearings failed.   Today, they have what appears to be a
standard electromagnetic motor running off a small battery...

 But, things are not quite as they appear...

 The motor uses a very different twist:  It uses  Spiral wound "Tordial" coils.

 The Rotor has magnets in it, and are drawn to the magnetic ferrite inside the
tordial coils.  However... when a small electric charge is sent through the coil,
it cancels out the attraction... allowing the rotor to move past the coil without any
resistance.

 Most electric motors suffer from what is called "Back-EMF". (EMF = Electrical magnetic field/force)   When you move a magnet past its attraction point... you then have to fight to get out of it.  This also plays havok with the current... as the direction of the energy flow is reversed.

 However, Steorn has already shown that there is No  "Back-EMF"  in their motor setup.
Which is quite awesome in itself...

 But why the need for a battery?

 Supposedly, the motor is outputiing more energy in the form of:

1) Rotor work
2) Heat
3) Recharging the Battery

 They claim the rotor work is basically free.  But that the Tordial coils generate a great
deal of heat energy.   Its my thought that This heat could be collected and used in some
way.   The rotor spinning might also possibly used for some work as well.

 There are more hidden things yet to be devulged about the motor,
as many of the current people who have seen & replicated the Tordial setup,
are being told that they do not have all the information to correctly duplicate the
device fully.   Still, the people who have built replications have been able to
at least duplicate the Steorn principals of the Tordial setup.. most getting very
little bemf (due to poor replications) , some getting none at all.

   One things Ive managed to gleam, is that they are using some sort of magnetic bearing
system... which reduces friction.  However, that seems to be the simple end of things.
Im not sure what other things may be at play here.

 Watch the videos on Steorns site for a much better explanation which shows their  first
demonstration video.   In only a few hours from now, the new demonstration will
be broadcast live.

 
 This is fascinating stuff.   If its proven to be true,  this could possibly change
everything..

[Bobulus]

To put it politely, I am highly skeptical of any 'free energy' device, especially one that requires an energy source to run.

If it really was constantly recharging the battery, you should be able to replace the battery with a regular piece of wire and still have it work. Heck, you could just turn it by hand to get it started, and never include a battery in the first place.

It seems more likely, however, that they're either deluded about about the amount of energy it produces, or attempting to scam people.

[CheffoJeffo]

Is this a repeat from 2006, 2007, 2008 and 2009 ?

It would be earth-shattering if it were true, but how many times does Steorn need to cry wolf before we stop lending them credence ?

An independent panel reviewed things and were unanimous in the conclusion that Steorn was not creating energy.

[shmokes]

  Years back, they had made a completely magnetic version of the technology,
but supposedly, the bearings failed.  

I remember this.  It's so laughable.  You're about to publicly demonstrate a revolutionary new technology, perhaps the most revolutionary technology in the history of mankind, but a bearing fails on your demo unit . . . so you go silent for years.  Wait . . . what?  Um, why not just replace the bearing and then conduct a proper demonstration the following week?  Seriously, stop taking these guys seriously.

[RayB]

Look, if it sounds too good to be true, then it probably isn't true.

And whatta ya know, the talk has been cancelled, citing weather preventing people from attending.

I'll hand it to them though, they are pretty slick and professional about it all (best way to scam investors?). Unlike Joseph Newman, whose approach is... shall we say, "different". LOL

[Samstag]

I think this is the real deal.  I know thousands of charlatans, scam artists, and fools have tried to produce free energy and failed, but this guy seems ot have everything figured out.  I mean, why didn't we think of eliminating back-emf?  And tordial coils?  Sheer genius!  I'm sold.













But my mechanical turk is telling me this guy is a fraud.

[Xiaou2]

 It does charge the batteries, however, not enough to keep it going forever.  But,
It is also expelling a lot of heat energy.  According to them, this heat energy makes
up for the losses, and still has excess to spare.


 There is one thing we know... and that is that people who usually devise some crazy
device who believe they have overunity, simply do not have the intellect, skills, and
money/equipment  to test it.    The rest are most likely scammers.


 Steorn however, is made up of engineers, and they have the skills, money, and
equipment.

  One thing that strikes me... is that not many people in their right mind would
buy an entire full page article in a popular publication... let alone rent out a
huge building for a public display.  Not to mention... the abuses they probably take
every day from the hardcore bashers.   To me, it speaks that they Real believe they
have something.

 
 Steorn's  "Jury"  supposedly got together and said they would not claim the tech was
overunity unless they saw the full monty.   Steorn was not ready to show it all...
and hey, you cant blame them for trying to be careful.  More then likely, they gave the
scientist enough to make their test and decision... but they didnt want to do it.

 I suppose you cant be surprised at this... considering that even IF their test were
positive... the scientists careers may have been ruined by reputation if the device
itself didnt work as it was supposed to.

 
 As for the cancellation:

 1) They have already done One demonstration already.  This says a lot.  It also
gave away some of the actual technology behind the concepts that they were first
only spouting.

 2) The weather was incredibly nasty here today.  I watched a car spin out on the
expressway in front of me... almost hitting me.   I can imagine many others having
travel problems... and being that these key people may be the ones who can help
validate the device... Its probably a good idea to postpone the event.  (Tho admittedly,
Im disappointed)


 Newman has some interesting concepts.  May have actually inspired Steorn, leading
them to the tordial discovery.   But the guy is whacky for sure.

[SavannahLion]

 Their claim is that the device creates more energy output than what is
being fed into it.

I'm sincerely sorry but this claim alone should raise many red flags with anyone. I initially stopped reading the rest of the post as soon as I saw this.

Then I felt bad and wanted to give Xiaou some benefit of the doubt. I thought maybe he had a point he wanted to cross. But try as I might, I just couldn't bring myself to actually read the post, but instead I found myself just skimming while I wait for the scanner to finish.

I then spotted this small tidbit.

Steorn's  "Jury"  supposedly got together and said they would not claim the tech was
overunity unless they saw the full monty.   Steorn was not ready to show it all...
and hey, you cant blame them for trying to be careful.  More then likely, they gave the
scientist enough to make their test and decision... but they didnt want to do it.

This alone raises a lot of stink. I have a book of PMM history and this is the number one common thread through all of them. The engineers almost never want to completely reveal the fundamental workings of their machines.

Any decent company, group or whatever will whip out their NDA, load the lawyers into their six shooters and show the scientists that count, the technology.

Sorry Xiaou. There's quite a bit of undiscovered science waiting to be unraveled out there, this isn't one of them.

[Bobulus]

I'm not sure how old Xiaou is, being fairly new to the community, but I remember when back in high school I fell completely and utterly for a Argument from authority logical fallacy like this, so I try to be nice and not just tell people that they're wrong to their face.

But yeah, this is almost sure to be total BS. Not showing all the specs, over-unity, overcomplicated designs, etc. These are all signs of fraud.

(The one I fell for, for the record, was the author of the Dilbert books talking in one of his books about a scientific experiment he's read about that showed time travel was possible. I believed it whole-heartedly, since it was from a successful person and it was printed in a book. Turned out he was just really misinterpreting the double-slit experiment. It took a high school science teacher giving me a look of pity as I excitedly explained it to him before I engaged my brain and thought about it.)

[SavannahLion]

(The one I fell for, for the record, was the author of the Dilbert books talking in one of his books about a scientific experiment he's read about that showed time travel was possible. I believed it whole-heartedly, since it was from a successful person and it was printed in a book. Turned out he was just really misinterpreting the double-slit experiment. It took a high school science teacher giving me a look of pity as I excitedly explained it to him before I engaged my brain and thought about it.)

Wow, time travel? I don't think I ever got that far with that experiment. I only went so far as to use it as proof of existence of a multi-verse (multi-planes, parallel dimensions, whatever). Though I guess one could theoretically travel through time as a inherent side effect of planes jumping if one could do such a thing. After that, I pretty much inhaled any book on anything remotely resembling pseudo-science. Loch Ness? Check. Fake Lunar landing? Check. Visiting aliens? Check. Time Travel. Multiple-planes. Doppelgangers. Hitler alive. Russian mind control experiments. Philadelphia experiment. SL-1 conspiracies. Check x 6.   

In any case, my fallacy was reading Chariots of the Gods? at such a young age. It took years for the logic gears to finally start functioning properly. Probably happened when I read a book by Joseph Davidovits* which presented a far more compelling argument than visiting aliens.







* Just because I mention Joseph Davidovits does not mean I promote his theories. However in the context of Joseph Davidovits' theory vs the alien theory presented by Erich von Däniken. Joseph Davidovits is far more believable and more readily tested. Completely discarding Erich von Däniken's theories is further encouraged when one discovers his refusal to update or modify his book when new information come to light, even when he admits inaccuracies like the section on the iron pillar of Delhi.  

[AtomSmasher]

I'm not sure how old Xiaou is, being fairly new to the community, but I remember when back in high school I fell completely and utterly for a Argument from authority logical fallacy like this, so I try to be nice and not just tell people that they're wrong to their face.

If you stick around here long enough you'll see that X has a tendency to believe in the unbelievable.  I used to partake in arguing against him, but then I realized that once his mind is set, no amount of evidence could change it and decided it was no longer worth my time.

[Xiaou2]

 Firstly, if I were had money, and was asked to Invest my money into Steorn,
I would say no.

 But, that does not mean that they have not stumbled upon something useful...
or even Revolutionary.

 Just because there are a million scammers out there, does not negate the
possibility.

 In fact, thats what Science is all about.  Infinite Possibilities.

 If you would have told people even 100 yrs ago, about Quantum Mechanics, they
would have laughed you out of the office, and locked you up in a straight jacket.

 This is the sad nature of humanity is seems.   Wanting to believe everything they
have been brought up to believe is Rock Solid.  That there is nothing left to discover
or know.  That they are Never wrong... because, that would violate their egos.  And
the mockings brought on by fear and egotistical attitudes.
 
 We all know that the mass majority once thought the earth was flat.  We find
it so amazingly incredible that people once thought that... and yet, those people
believed it without a doubt.  Were willing to bask and mock anyone... stoning them
like an angry mob.   And maybe even locking people up over it. (or execution)


 Today... Not ONE single Scientist can tell us how we were created.  They think it
was some "Big Bang",  but cant specify what put that material there in the
first place.  They cant justify the REALITY that they live in.. and how very little they
do know... But yet, they can Mock and Bash based on what they THINK they know?

 Until you know Every fact possible... then you DONT KNOW.   And as far as Ive seen,
its only the people who ACCEPT that they are not sure about things... that Actually
make new discoveries.

 Then again... How lessened would the glory of new victories be without all those
egged faces?!    hehe


 The biggest problem with Free Energy is that its Free.  Nobody can make any money
off a free energy device.   Even if it is true,  no Govt., no controlling force,  will allow it.

 Why?  The controlling forces believe that people left unchecked, with unlimited power,
could create mass chaos and destruction.  Not to mention, that any one person with
unlimited power theoretically could become a ruler merely due to power they output.

 
 There surely Have been people who were not willing to share their devices inner
workings.  And hey,  "News Flash"   if you show a Smart bunch of people your
successful device... What percentage of money do you think you would had gained from
it?   I can cite example after example of people Screwed out of their due payment.
One such person?  The inventor of the Electronic board game "Dark Tower".  Shown to
the toy company... Turned down...  Them later to produce it...  And only after his
lawsuit, getting a Tiny portion of what he Should have gotten from it.  Some are not
even lucky as him.

 Anf KFC isnt exactly giving its Recipe away to anyone.  They made the stuff, and kept the formula secret.   And as a result, they continue to be the best selling chicken franchise.

 
 As far as Ive understood, Steorn gave the people all the knowledge they needed to
make a valid judgment.  In a video, it even shows some engineers/scientist who
had seen the initial test rig.  They were allowed to do ANYTHING they wanted to it...
including taking it all apart.   None of them could find Any fault with Steorns findings...
and they were very skeptical going in.

 If one searches Youtube, you can even find a mini magnetic toy prototype.  I think this
may also have been shown to the Jury.   It certainly Was shown to someone prominent,
and he was on another video talking about it.

 
 You know... I dont know if  Steorn is real or not.  I tend to believe that they probably
are.  But Im fine with being wrong.  But what I dont get... are people who are
the very definition of the Old Witch Hunters.   The people who make assumptions
without any knowledge of the device...   Any 'Real' evidence...   People who bash and
stone others merely because they feel offended or scared... or somehow feel mentally
superior to them.   Do you really think that bad attitude will bring anything good?


 Our very own Frizzle constantly Bashed a fellow collector /  creator...   Saying that
he was a fraud and a rotten scoundrel.   And yet... is that true?   Well, I suppose we
shall see in a few days.   If it IS true... then Frizzle gets his Ego padded.  But what
if he was completely off base?

 He would have then created a ton of negativity over nothing.   His Witch hunting
tactics may have caused bad blood between Us and a Good Manufacturer.

 There is Nothing wrong with being Skeptical.  Im a HUGE skeptic.  I dont trust
ANYTHING.   But, I dont send angry emails or post massive negative drivel on message boards all over the place, based on a Suspicion. 

 Having an Open Mind, is far more important than people realize.

[shmokes]

Having an Open Mind, is far more important than people realize.

As is having a critical mind.  There's a helluva lot more ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow--- out there than truth, Xiaou.  Yesterday I'm driving along (actually I'm in the passenger seat, wife is driving) and some --cream-filled twinkie-- backs out of his driveway into the road without looking and clips my car just behind the back wheel.  He got out of the car, "That was entirely my fault.  I'm so sorry.  Can we just take care of this?  I don't want my insurance to go up.  Look, I drive a porche, it's no problem.  I promise you I can take care of this, blah blah blah."  I told him I'm sorry, but I don't know him.  I don't care if he pays for the damage or his insurance does, but I gotta call the cops.  Of course, when the cops arrived his story changed.  Now his car was stationary.  Never moved, and mine swerved into his driveway and hit him.  Do you think for a second that I ever would have seen a cent of money from this --cream-filled twinkie-- if I hadn't called the cops (luckily it was obvious from the damage and the location of the vehicles that he was lying).  You should be immediately skeptical of everything you hear.  Everything.

Xiaou, as you already said, these guys supposedly had this tech working years ago and they canceled their demonstration because a bearing in their device malfunctioned.  Why has it taken this long to replace a bearing?

As for your conspiracy theories, they just don't pan out.  Sure if a single company invents the tech they would rather keep a monopoly on it forever, but that's just not practical.  You either patent it and get a 20-year monopoly, or you hope nobody else can figure it out, cos if they do they will patent it preventing you, the first inventor, from selling your own invention.  There are billions of dollars to be made in free energy for the company that develops and patents the device that can bring said free energy.  That's why even a power company has to market a product like this if they come up with it.  Cos their power business will be destroyed no matter who brings this product to market, but at least if they bring it to market they can survive with the new revenue stream while all other power companies will simply disappear into irrelevance.

But put evil corporations aside for a second, you even claim that governments would want to suppress a technology like this.  LMAO.  Do you have any idea how quickly the government controlling this technology would become the richest in the world?  They could provide free unlimited power to all their citizens and corporations.  They could sell power to every other country at any cost, undercutting the prices charged by every power provider in every country in the world.  If the US government had this technology our national debt would disappear by the end of the year. 

Nobody can make any money off free energy?  Are you mad?  Free energy simply means that your profit margins are equal to your revenue.  Just because the energy is free to you doesn't mean it is free to the people you sell it to.  Electricity is very expensive to produce.  If you learn to produce it more efficiently, reducing costs, you can increase profit margins.  If you continue in that direction and learn to produce it for free, guess which direction your profit margins continue to go . . .

Think critically

[Bobulus]

Xiaou, you can't assume everything true until proven false. It's impossible to live that way. I can't believe you believe that anyway.

I have no malicious intent in telling you that I am skeptical about this invention. If anything, I only say something because I believe it harmful for people to put their hopes in something that most likely won't work.

You talk about what science doesn't yet know. Well, the only way you can ever figure things like this out is by starting with a set of assumptions, and testing each assumption in turn, learning and making new assumptions as you go. This is the Scientific Method we've used for thousands of years to get where we are now. True, sometimes old assumptions get corrected with new data, but on the whole, it's an upward slope. To throw everything out now because the facts don't agree with what you want the world to be like just doesn't work. You need evidence, something that, so far, the developers have failed to produce.

[danny_galaga]

I saw the word 'free energy' and my eyes glazed over 

[delta88]

Not taking sides, just making fun comments:

"I saw "Earth is round and my eyes glazed over"

"Once I read the Earth revolves around the Sun I quite reading"

"They started taking about these magical xrays that could see your bones!!, Beware of scammers!"

 

[danny_galaga]

In any case, my fallacy was reading Chariots of the Gods? at such a young age. It took years for the logic gears to finally start functioning properly.

HA! You too! I was probably about ten or so. The claims seemed so amazing. Another i fell for (a bit later, when i was experimenting with spirituality) was the Lobsang Rampa books. Penny dropped because of the author himself when the story finally brought him to England and how he came to have a different body.

Good lessons to learn.

If ever there were to be something perpetual in a man made device, it will not be electrical or mechanical. What Steorn are doing seems like just an elaborate electrical variation on the centuries of tricky weights and chains machines that came before. We should always be open minded, but if it has moving parts, it's not even worth a look in in my opinion and it can safely be assumed to not work...

[danny_galaga]

Not taking sides, just making fun comments:

"I saw "Earth is round and my eyes glazed over"

"Once I read the Earth revolves around the Sun I quite reading"

"They started taking about these magical xrays that could see your bones!!, Beware of scammers!"

 

Not QUITE equivalent. A nearer analogy would be

"I saw 'water powered cars' and my eyes glazed over"

"Once i read that he was anally probed while aboard the UFO i quit reading"

"They started talking about the earth being hollow and that's where UFO's come from!! Beware of scammers!"


IF i read in december 1903 that some guys had flown an aircraft successfully, i would think "Finally, I'm glad America did it first" (If i was American). There is a context of understanding that it is plausible. If i had heard about the steam turbine a few decades earlier, i wouldnt have laughed. Most people would have said 'Oh, of course! Why didn't someone think of that earlier?'

And by the time I, as a layman, read about relativity I may not have understood it. But i wouldn't have laughed it out of existence because by the time i had heard about it, the theory had been PEER REVIEWED.

[danny_galaga]

Ok, just watching one of the vids on Steorn. So far I'm confused because he is talking like back EMF in a MOTOR is a BAD thing    All i'm seeing right now is a very inefficient motor/generator  

edit:

an appropriate quote from Wiki:

Barry Williams of the Australian Skeptics has pointed out that Steorn is "not the first company to claim they have suddenly discovered the miraculous property of magnetism that allows you to get free energy."

edit edit: Not that the penny was ever in the air for me, but here is the penny dropping moment, again from Wiki:

Many people have accused Steorn of engaging in a publicity stunt although Steorn deny such accusations.[17] Eric Berger, writing on the Houston Chronicle website, commented: "Steorn is a former e-business company that saw its market vanish during the dot.com bust. It stands to reason that Steorn has re-tooled as a Web marketing company, and is using the "free energy" promotion as a platform to show future clients how it can leverage print advertising and a slick Web site to promote their products and ideas."

[mccoy178]

Not taking sides, just making fun comments:

"I saw "Earth is round and my eyes glazed over"

"Once I read the Earth revolves around the Sun I quite reading"

"They started taking about these magical xrays that could see your bones!!, Beware of scammers!"

 

I think these are relevant quotes.  Funny as hell too, I might add.

[CheffoJeffo]

Steorn's  "Jury"  supposedly got together and said they would not claim the tech was
overunity unless they saw the full monty.   Steorn was not ready to show it all...
and hey, you cant blame them for trying to be careful.  More then likely, they gave the
scientist enough to make their test and decision... but they didnt want to do it.

 I suppose you cant be surprised at this... considering that even IF their test were
positive... the scientists careers may have been ruined by reputation if the device
itself didnt work as it was supposed to.

To be fair, as I don't have the energy to debate this one on anything other than the science (which I would LOVE to work), this seems to me to be mischaracterization of the events (academic connections do come in handy sometimes and my brother is teh smrt scientist guy). The jury was never provided with a working model or even results from a working model -- only with some inconclusive prior test data -- because Steorn hadn't actually been able to make the damned thing work.

My mind remains open (although without the hole in my head that lets the rain come in, so my mind wanders) and I would love to see the revolution in science that would occur from a positive result.

But I believe that we need to hold Steorn to a reasonable level of proof ... and I mean a stricter level than those who believe that we are being surveilled by our televisions.

 

[shmokes]

I don't give a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- whether they even let the scientists work it over.  If they have had a working device for years, why have they not started selling it?  Better yet, why have they not started selling power?  They would become one of the biggest, richest companies in the world.  It's so hilarious [read: sad] that people like Xiaou make people like Steorn possible.

[CheffoJeffo]

I have no problem with seemingly crazy non-confirmists keeping companies like Steorn running. It doesn't hurt me and just maybe they aren't crazy.

OTOH, I have a hugh problem with folks who come in late and proselytize without the first clue as to what they are talking about, then talking about other people keeping open minds ... while they are talking about death trains and how we are being watched by our televisions.

[Xiaou2]

Xiaou, you can't assume everything true until proven false. It's impossible to live that way. I can't believe you believe that anyway.

I have no malicious intent in telling you that I am skeptical about this invention. If anything, I only say something because I believe it harmful for people to put their hopes in something that most likely won't work.

 You got me wrong.  I look on this as "Its very possible".  Not  "OMG, they did it!".
I AM Skeptical.  But Im NOT the kind of Skeptic that immediately starts saying
"Thats Impossible", "Thats BS!", and hurling insanity insults..etc.    Thats exactly the
kind of Mob-Esc  responses that is comming from many So called Scientists... among the
rest.

 That is what I look down upon.  And trust me, that this kind of thing happens ALL the
time in the Scientific community.   Scientists who venture on the not so well traveled
paths, or work against what is believed to be rock solid... get Stoned, shunned, and
bashed.

 And you take a man like Nikola Tesla... who was willing to give the world free energy... and what happens???   He was Buried by men of great wealth and power, and then
his image was smeared... Painted to make him look like he was Crazy.   He was Not
crazy.  He was a Genius.  But, its very easy to make people believe something by
merely printing up some Bunk in the "ALMIGHTY Truthful Newspapers". 

(Sarcasm /on)  As we all know, NOBODY would dare print something false in
the Media!  (sarcasm off/  )

 Also, I dont see a problem with people having Hope.   So what if that hope gets
dissapointed.   Thats the reality of life.   Its when we Stop hoping,  we become
dead inside.  Negative.  Too cynical.   Its Hope that Drives us.  And its Hope that may
Save us.  Even if we have to endure a mass of failures... Maybe, just maybe... one
day the Hope of one small group will give us something that will propel mankind to
a new level.   

 I for one, certainly do Hope that Steorn can pull off their Technology.   My biggest
concern hasnt been if its a scam or not.  That simply does not effect my life at all...as
I didnt invest in it.  But more about weather the anomoly can be harnessed effectively.
I mean... if the thing is only 1% overunity... wouldnt you have to build a device as
big as a "State" just to justify any real output levels?   It probably wouldnt be worth
the maintenance or cost of construction.   Anyways... it does not hurt me one bit if
it fails or not... but if it Does succeed, it may benefit us all.


shmokes - You are truly Naive to think that the Patent system works For the people.
There are Glaring occurrences where it basically can be proven that the person who
submitted an invention to the patent office was ROBBED and Raped.  And the lawsuit that followed, was bought and paid for, and so failed.  The patent system is a JOKE.

 The Govt. more than likely Does have the Technology.  However, that does not make
wealth.  And that does Not make the world turn.  Just as Gold does not make a
country any more powerful.

 Most of the Jobs that people do today are menial.  They could be done completely
by computer in Auto-Pilot mode... Or simply by Robotics,  or self-service.   Yet, to a
large degree, People are still doing these menial jobs.  Why?   Because the leaders
know that without work, people may mass up and riot... and destroy everything.

 You can not just walk over to Taiwan, and buy it, or even buy property there.
The rules exists that prevent such things.  No matter how much money you have,
you are limited by the rules of the land.

 And if you Think that all these different countries are not operating in some organized
cooperation system now... You would be mistaken.   The only exception might be north Korea... and you can bet people are working on changing that shortly.  (We just have to finish corrupting the middle east first)

Xiaou, as you already said, these guys supposedly had this tech working years ago and they canceled their demonstration because a bearing in their device malfunctioned.

 Not so.  They had a positive Test result from a "magnetic interaction".  You can see
this on their explanation video.  It looks like a magnet spinning slowly on a shaft,
passing by what looks like another magnet / sensor... and the results shown on a
scope.

 They later built a magnetic device based on the conceps of this finding.   The
device supposedly spun for a long time.  Maybe days...   SO they decided to display it.
However... something happened, which caused failure to occur.
 
 My guess, is that the device was just too small and suseptable to tiny changes.
Bearings were blamed... but even with proper bearings, they probably realized that
the device was not enough to show...  so went back into developing something more
robust.


 My biggest problem with people like you... is that you are willing to throw a bunch
of stones without even watching a single 3 min video... let alone 2 or 3, and some
additional research for yourself.

[boykster]

I don't believe in Santa Claus or free energy 

[CheffoJeffo]

My biggest problem with people like you... is that you are willing to throw a bunch
of stones without even watching a single 3 min video... let alone 2 or 3, and some
additional research for yourself.

My biggest problem with people like you is that you ignore people who have been following this for YEARS (because it would be huge when they announced it YEARS ago and folks started paying attention), watch a single 3 minute video and then run people down.

 

[Malenko]

thought the only free energy was slavery?

[CheffoJeffo]

Forget free ... I want pure energy ...

[shmokes]

shmokes - You are truly Naive to think that the Patent system works For the people.
There are Glaring occurrences where it basically can be proven that the person who
submitted an invention to the patent office was ROBBED and Raped.  And the lawsuit that followed, was bought and paid for, and so failed.  The patent system is a JOKE.

I love that you cry and cry about personal attacks, but don't mind resorting to insults (capitalized ones, no less ) yourself.  Anyway, between the two of us I bet only one has formal training in patent law.  I'm fairly confident that I could do a far better job describing how our patent system works, how it benefits "the people", how it benefits patent holders, what are its shortcomings, etc., than you could.  Also, I think you would be hard pressed to find even a single occurrence of a person being raped as a result of filing a patent application.  Actually, I think it would be extraordinary if you could even find someone who was ROBBED (note: I yelled that word only for consistency) as a result of filing a patent app, though maybe you just mean that his idea was stolen rather than that his property was taken from his person or his immediate presence through violence or intimidation.  But ROBBED and Raped [emphasis mine]  That sounds pretty bad.  I know I would think twice about filing a patent on my superconductor if it meant having to endure forced sexual intercourse with some lawyer in the patent office and, perhaps, having my invention forced out of my hands at gunpoint.

 The Govt. more than likely Does have the Technology.  However, that does not make
wealth.  

You know what does tend to make wealth?  Selling energy.  I'm just sayin'

 My biggest problem with people like you... is that you are willing to throw a bunch
of stones without even watching a single 3 min video...

My biggest problem with people like you is that you are willing to believe anything so long as it is said in a 3 min video on Youtube,  

[ark_ader]

Is this the same guy who said he made the perpetual engine back in the late eighties and disappeared with iinvestors cash?

[Ed_McCarron]

You kenna break the laws of physics!

[RayB]

Is this the same guy who said he made the perpetual engine back in the late eighties and disappeared with iinvestors cash?

No but that tends to be the way to do it. You get a bunch of rich investors on the believers side, and you keep "researching", and like most investments, you win some, you lose some, so you don't hear about any investors getting pissed off unless there's obvious proof of fraud.

Xiau: I bet you fully believed in the Phantom game console too, right?

[Xiaou2]

 Most average people dont file patents until they are near production level.
Filing a patent isnt easy or cheap.  Which makes it Extremely difficult for the
average joe who had a great invention, and Should be able to make money from
it.

 Once you Do put in a patent,  you are dealing with People.   That person doing
the filing only has to make a few phone calls to some companies, stall your
application, and have them submit their own... then deny or "Lose" yours.
Or, they simply falsify the date of the fake Granted patent.

 Not only that, but any company can just about copy your device, make a few small
changes... and still put a competing product out...  or put out a device well before you
can even tool up for production.

 If you dont have the money for a large company, and cant get funding... you are
left to try to troll an existing company.

 One you do that... they tell you the idea isnt what they are looking for... and then
resell your idea in a slightly different way... just as they did with the Dark Tower game.

 The entire game is Rigged.  Just like everything is this world.
Unless you have special connections to the right Key people, you will always
be kept down.

 I find it funny and Sad that you believe your system is Honest and works as
its supposed to

[Xiaou2]

My biggest problem with people like you is that you ignore people who have been following this for YEARS

 I Have been following it since the beginning announcements.

 Which is why I suggested that some at very "least" look over the most recent
explanation videos.   As in the past, Steorn had not put out this kind of information.
A lot of the stuff that has been closed behind the doors, has started to finally
be shown to the mass public.

 
 To this day, the field of magnetism and gravity, is simply not well understood.  Just
theories upon theories.  Just as nobody can accurately describe the very nature
of who or what put all this Stuff in the universe.  Who made the 'Laws' ?  How
is ANY human qualified to know with 100% certainty about ALL of the laws, and
what laws can not be bent or broken?  Sorry, but no human can claim so much.
To think so, would be extremely arrogant.

[CheffoJeffo]

How is ANY human qualified to know with 100% certainty about ALL of the laws, and what laws can not be bent or broken?  Sorry, but no human can claim so much. To think so, would be extremely arrogant.

And to just dismiss, then chastise those who believe in, those laws would be just plain foolish.

Gotta dash -- my Trinitron is watching me ...

[AtomSmasher]

Just watched their announcement videos and I still think they're full of it.  When it comes to the highly improbable, I tend to disbelieve until it is proven to be true (or at least proven to be highly likely).  Until this company manages to prove some of their outrageous claims, I will not buy into what they are saying.  I used to be a very gullible person, but I learned my lesson long ago that there are a lot of liars in the world, especially when money is involved.

[shmokes]

 Most average people dont file patents until they are near production level.

Applying for the grant earlier decreases the duration of your patent-created monopoly while your product is on the shelf.  Waiting until your product is near production level before patenting it means you will earn more, not less money.  But if you're worried about someone else independently inventing the same thing or stealing your idea it is cheaper to patent early anyway.

 Once you Do put in a patent,  you are dealing with People.   That person doing
the filing only has to make a few phone calls to some companies, stall your
application, and have them submit their own... then deny or "Lose" yours.
Or, they simply falsify the date of the fake Granted patent.

Oh Xiaou . . . you're cute.  Does this sort of thing actually keep you up at night, even though it has never happened?  Once you've filed a patent you have a paper trail that makes this impossible.  Even if it was possible you talk like this is inevitably what you will run into if you attempt to file a patent.  Why are you so afraid of the world?  It is simply not like that.

 Not only that, but any company can just about copy your device, make a few small
changes... and still put a competing product out... 

No, they can't.  If your innovation was not obvious and you got a patent on it and someone else uses it, they're screwed.  Look at the rumbling features in videogame console gamepads.  When immersion sued, Microsoft had the sense to settle, but Sony fought it, suggesting that their use of two motors made what they were doing different.  $100 million is what Sony had to pay Immersion, and then they had to license Immersion's technology in order to make the Dual Shock 3.  This legal trouble is the reason the PS3 initially came with a rumble-free Sixaxis controller.

 I find it funny and Sad that you believe your system is Honest and works as
its supposed to

The system does work.  It's absurd to think otherwise.  It could work much better as the Patent office lacks the manpower it needs.  Perhaps a 10 or 30 year monopoly would be better than 20 years.  Maybe companies making life-saving devices (cure for cancer or something) should be required to license out their invention for a reasonable royalty rather than taking full advantage of their artificial monopoly while people are dying who can't afford the remedy.  Sure there are myriad ways to arguably make the system better or worse, but the system is not failing in any of the ways you suggest.  Not any of them.

Do you think that the average Joe would be in a better position vis a vis corporations absent the patent system?  Are you mad?  Without the patent system corporations actually would do all the crazy things you suggest.  Every time.  It would be impossible for a regular person to get credit (and rich) from his invention.  The second it was out it would be reverse-engineered and a far better-marketed knock off would be sold for less money by a major corporation with giant manufacturing and advertising capabilities as well as vast distribution channels.  Plus that company would have no R&D costs to recoup, since you did all the work for them.  The hilarious thing is that the utter nonsense world you think we live in as a result of the patent system actually would become a reality if you got rid of the patent system.

Xiaou, if you really want to ---smurfette--- about the patent system being abused think a little bit about the enormous bargaining power that comes along with injunction.  Let's say Honda makes a new Civic and you realize that a 50 cent component in the drive train violates one of your patents.  Honda is innocent.  They did their due diligence and thought they had rights to everything in the car.  But they designed a 50 cent part and didn't realize that it violated an existing patent.  And that means that if you take them to court you're most likely gonna get a temporary injunction on the sale of Honda Civics until the litigation is resolved.  Think of the millions and millions of dollars Honda will lose during a week or a month or two months or however long this takes until the litigation is finished.  Honda's not in a position to pay you fair market value for your contribution to the car.  They're not paying you a royalty, they're paying you a ransom because you will hold their entire line of civics hostage until they pay whatever you demand.  And they'll pay it.  They have no choice.  It's just business. 

[RayB]

The jury's results were...
http://www.boingboing.net/2009/06/23/jury-reports-that-st.html

But regardless, let's say they can use magnets and generate electricity with their device. Then what? It's still a finite resource. Magnets don't keep their same magnetism forever. What do we do when we run out of magnetic material to mine? We're no better off.

I'm much more inclined to believe this guy's answer to our energy crisis:
http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_cowley_fusion_is_energy_s_future.html
(Xiau, you're better off feeding your brain with real stuff like that. Real science.)



*edit* I think SalimFadhley (25th November 2009 02:26 PM post) here hits the nail on the head:
http://www.ukskeptics.com/showthread.php/823-Steorn-Orbo/page3

*edit 2* I LOVE the commentary on this page. Says it all:
http://boingboing.net/2009/12/16/steorns-orbo-free-en.html

[Ed_McCarron]

What do we do when we run out of magnetic material to mine? We're no better off.

Then, we use the output of the device to power electromagnets that then power the device that then powers electromagnets.

Oh, wait...

[Xiaou2]

Im not gona waste much time on this...   But this particular quote ticked me off
"Sony fought it"

  Any multimillion dollar company can afford to run a lawsuit, or fight a companys
lawsuit.

 You think the average Joe is Really gona be able to do that?  Nope.  They cant
even cover the cost of the lawyers.   And if a Lawyer Does decide to hop on,
they will be doing a 95% take on the cash rewards.  The rest will go to taxes,
and to cover your 5yrs in court without a job.  Ohh, wait, you cant afford to
fight a case for 5yrs with no income?  My goodness.  You might as well just
bend over and take it.

 (This all assumes you can even afford to Patent something!  According to what
Ive heard, its a lengthy and costly process in itself...  And that assumes that the
patent officer didnt steal your idea and sell it to another company, falsifying dates
on their phoney patents..)

 And even if you Did manage to get a win with a crook lawyer (most all of them),
you most likely are not going to get high dollar reward like the case you mentioned.
Not even close.

 Only high dollar lawyers MIGHT get you high rewards.  And more than likely, you will
also need a sizable company.   A mere patent on a controller by a single 20yr old
individual isnt going to get squat even if his was first.

 The system is Geared towards keeping the small guys down.  And when that
small guy tries to compete... he gets buried by legalized monopolies, shady activities,
phony accusations, bogus rulings, family/him threatened, false imprisonment,
and or death.  And or he has to give up 7/10 or more of what he SHOULD be getting
to some knee-breakers behind closed doors.

 The people who succeed, are people who have friends in Powerful places...  and those
people are forever locked in place.  Their souls Sold.  Forever in some form of debt,
and more than likely, some unscrupulous predicaments.

 No, Im not scared of the World one bit.  More less, Im Disgusted by it.

[shmokes]

The disparity in legal resources between giant corporations and individuals or small businesses is the reason god invented the contingency fee.  And contingency fees are tightly regulated, Xiaou.  A lawyer can't take 95% of an award.  Limitations typically look something like this:

Under Business and Profession Code Section 6146, a contract for a contingency fee to represent any person seeking damages against a health care provider may collect 40 percent of the first $50,000 recovered. The scale then allows collection of 33 percent of the next $50,000 recovered, 25 percent of the next $500,000, and 15 percent of the next $600,000.

Don't get me wrong, the Sonies and Microsofts of the world have a ginormous legal advantage.  But that's not a defect of the patent system.  It's a defect of the entire judicial system and, more importantly, capitalism.  

As for patent officers stealing inventions and falsifying dates and false imprisonments and murdering applicants, well, that just goes with the territory.  If you want to patent a product you gotta be willing to deal with a few piano-wire wielding clerks at the patent office.  Seriously, Xiaou, that's just the sort of thing that kinda needs a citation.  

[SavannahLion]

The people who succeed, are people who have friends in Powerful places...  and those
people are forever locked in place.  Their souls Sold.  Forever in some form of debt,
and more than likely, some unscrupulous predicaments.

Where do I sign up?

[RayB]

Seriously, Xiaou, that's just the sort of thing that kinda needs a citation.  

How can there be citations when they've all been silenced by the Illuminati?

[shmokes]

True that . . . I'm kinda surprised they keep letting Xiaou live, frankly.  He seems to be quite Savvy to their schemes and intent on spreading the TRUTH.  It's quite possible that his ability to make a person's heart explode from 1" away simply makes him a tricky and difficult target.

[danny_galaga]

 You got me wrong.  I look on this as "Its very possible". 

For me, i look at this and say "It's very unlikely this works". The onus is on the claimant to prove it. Seems to me this is something really worth proving...
And from what i saw in that video, all they had to display was a very inefficient motor/dynamo 

 Most average people dont file patents until they are near production level.
Filing a patent isnt easy or cheap.  Which makes it Extremely difficult for the
average joe who had a great invention, and Should be able to make money from
it.

I shouldn't but i'm going to argue from a selected instance. In this case, my friends father. He invented  external plastic louvres for the rear window of cars. He was an average Joe. he managed to patent it, AND take his former boss to court for trying to steal the rights. He did this with a public defence lawyer no less. He later sold the patent for what seems to me a pittance, but he was never good with money. There was never a time when he could have produced this himself.

HA! Now I talk about this, do you know what he's been working on for the last ten years or so? And having different people give him money for research. Go on, i bet you can't guess 

I always felt embarrassed when he'd show me his latest iteration. I never had the heart to tell him it wasn't going to work. I'm a wuss like that...

[protokatie]

Magnets don't keep their same magnetism forever. What do we do when we run out of magnetic material to mine? We're no better off.

Magnets can be manufactured. In fact most magnets in use today have been manufactured. Just need the correct material (even iron will work in a pinch) in a molten form in a strong magnetic field applied as it cools down. I am sure there are other ways to make something a permanent magnet, too.

[SavannahLion]

Jesus Xiaou, run out of magnetic material to mine? I'll bank on an intergalactic highway coming through here before this planet turns into another Psychlo.

[danny_galaga]

I'm wondering if most people understand that the conventional way we generate electricity is with magnetic fields? It's very simple- pass a conductor through a magnetic field. Voila! Electricity!Make that motion circular so it passes through again and you have a generator. Michael Faraday first did this in the 19th century. Nothing magical or 'free' about it.This is all i saw in the video clip. So everyone, forget about the magnets already! If that's all this crowd has to show, well then, they are about 150 years too late...

[CheffoJeffo]

* CheffoJeffo  pops popcorn and stocks the fridge in anticipation of Xiaou's thoughts on Airnergy

[Vanguard]

Xiaou2 is definitely lacking in the most basic knowledge of physics.   In P&R he thought that the government was covering up the fact that the poles had shifted (thus causing our strange weather).  He wasn't aware that a caveman could tell if either the physical or magnetic poles had shifted by simple observation.   I'm not surprised he thinks we mine magnets.

What strikes me as odd is that he continues to display his impressive lack of knowledge on a daily basis.   I would think after a few people point out the fallacies in his logic, that he would endeavor to educate himself.

[RayB]

Hey asswipes, I'm the one who brought up mining magnetic material. Some magnetic material is naturally occurring and some is man-made.
http://thescienceexperts.com/answers/where-do-magnets-come-from

Magnets can be manufactured. In fact most magnets in use today have been manufactured. Just need the correct material (even iron will work in a pinch) in a molten form in a strong magnetic field applied as it cools down. I am sure there are other ways to make something a permanent magnet, too.

Right, and so considering the energy spent making them, we're not that better off than making and using batteries. The Orbo is just a very delicate electric motor. So far they've shown nothing that shows production of energy above what it consumes. Though they and their believers keep harping about "no back EMF". Ultimately, like was said above, the burden of proof/explanation is on them, not us.

*edit* see below:

[Smoker]

CheffoJeffo has figured it out. their perpetual motion machine can only be used to power WIFI routers!
These scams ALWAYS turn out the same.
If someone ever does figure this out, they will never CARE if you believe them. they really won’t need anyone to.

[protokatie]

Hey asswipes, I'm the one who brought up mining magnetic material. Some magnetic material is naturally occurring and some is man-made.
http://thescienceexperts.com/answers/where-do-magnets-come-from

Magnets can be manufactured. In fact most magnets in use today have been manufactured. Just need the correct material (even iron will work in a pinch) in a molten form in a strong magnetic field applied as it cools down. I am sure there are other ways to make something a permanent magnet, too.

Right, and so considering the energy spent making them, we're not that better off than making and using batteries. The Orbo is just a very delicate electric motor. So far they've shown nothing that shows production of energy above what it consumes. Though they and their believers keep harping about "no back EMF" as if that's supposed to mean anything, and yet no one can explain how/why that's a great and wonderful thing. Which like was said above, the burden of proof/explanation is on them, not us.

Oh don't get me wrong. I wasn't defending Tigger's little gadget, I was just pointing out that magnets were typically manufactured. The device Tigger got all worked up about is obviously a scam or maybe just a publicity stunt.

[RayB]

*Note*
To be fair to Xiau's original intent, Steorn finally posted their videos demonstrating part of the device. (They had posted a video yesterday talking about the Orbo copies people have built and posted videos of on Youtube, but they seem to have taken that video down).

However once again, it's just a partial explanation and there will be yet another presentation next week going into energy generation:

http://www.youtube.com/user/SteornOfficial#p/u/4/bzcZDr1AcEU

[Xiaou2]

Actually, its still up, under this label: "Steorn examine Orbo replication attempts"

 They say they are releasing multiple demos over this entire months time,  so as to
be able to include peoples  "on-the-fly"  requests for specific tests.

 At the final stage, they will let anyone bring their own test equipment and test
for themselves, as well as look over their collected data to this point.

[SavannahLion]

Hey asswipes, I'm the one who brought up mining magnetic material. Some magnetic material is naturally occurring and some is man-made.
http://thescienceexperts.com/answers/where-do-magnets-come-from

Oh ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, apologies to Xiaou then. After trying to dig through more chapters than in War and Peace it's hard to follow his junk sometimes.

They say they are releasing multiple demos over this entire months time,  so as to
be able to include peoples  "on-the-fly"  requests for specific tests.

 At the final stage, they will let anyone bring their own test equipment and test
for themselves, as well as look over their collected data to this point.

Get back to us in February then.

Seriously. Forget this showing off ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---. First thing on my agenda would be to get investors (which this guy seems to have no trouble getting  ) and scale this ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- up to ginormous dimensions, set that acrylic crap spinning and undercut every power company on the planet. A guy like this wouldn't be afraid of governments kocking him off, he should be terrified of PG&E snipers. 

What's that phrase? "The proof is in the pudding." I like chocolate.

[RayB]

Actually, its still up, under this label: "Steorn examine Orbo replication attempts"

Yeah that's the vid, but it's a re-post. All the original comments (including a critical few that were mine) are gone.

[danny_galaga]

Though they and their believers keep harping about "no back EMF". Ultimately, like was said above, the burden of proof/explanation is on them, not us.

And this is the thing that gets me. Back EMF is a necessary element for an efficient electric motor. And for a generator, you need the field windings to pick up as much of the magnetic field as possible. Making electricity electro-mechanically means resistance. Which equals drag. Which means a force must be applied. A very crude analogy of what i see their machine as is an 8 cylinder car that is deliberately set up so it only ever runs on 3 cylinders. I'm referring to the retarded idea of having those windings set up so that they don't do much of anything. I suspect this is to 1) look all "nuovo scientific" and 2) less drag means it can just spin longer.

But for $1000 i'll make em something that spins magnitudes longer. All i need is some ball races, a stand, and a 200 kg steel flywheel...

[Xiaou2]

Non Steorn Demo on how the Coils work



Non Steorn Demo on zeroing out Coil BEMF with proper placement




 As far as I have understood it.. Bemf is what causes ineffecient motors.  Its also what
causes the current and voltages to reverse directions as it surges.   The faster
the motor goes, the greater the bemf issue.

 As Ive understood,  the typical magnetic motor issue has to do with the 'gate'.
Where as once you pass the magnets by the attraction point where they have sped
up...  they cant pass each other without the same level of pull in reverse.  Thus, its
like putting on the brakes.    Many people Think they can solve the gate issue mechanically, but they simply end up realizing that mechanical devices consume
the power you are trying to generate.  Thus, no way to close the loop.

 With Steorns device... they are not using electronic coils for the pulling force.
The Ferrite type material is already doing to work of pulling the rotor magnets towards
it.   As soon as the two magnetic sources get near each other,  they send a small
amount of juice into the coils.  This changes the ferrites magnetic properties I believe...
neutralizing it,  so that the rotor can pass by it without Any reversed pull.

 In the process of the field collapse in the coils/core material, Somehow, they Gain a
net in current/voltage as well.  The simple act of changing the core ferrite magnetic
properties, seems to generate a Gain of output.

 The coils then seem to be used to pick up the energy, and excess energy, without any
bemf Reversals, or braking effects.  They are using this gain, to charge the battery that
is driving the system.


 This is vastly different than a typical generator, in that there is no harsh friction
and resistance to overcome... and yet, they still continue to gain energy.

 You may also not realize, that they are using magnetic bearings too.  This further
reduces friction loss, to almost nothing.

 
 As far as I have understood, they do not even need a spinning rotor at all.  They can
make a solid-state version of the technology that needs no moving parts to gain
energy.  

 They chose this method of generation merely to show excess energy in
multiple ways:  Heat from coils, Work from Rotor, and excess energy from the cores
change.   Its a lot easier for people to grasp, and harder for people to claim
that they are hiding something, using hidden electronic trickery.

 They are also trying to maintain Some proprietary secrets, such as whatever
the core material inside those coils is made of... else the competition for production
would have a huge head-start in design and development of an actual product
put to market.

 This seems to be why they originally chose an  All-Magnet version of the tech for the
Original showing years ago.  However, that was not built by them, and it failed due
to poor mechanical design, and tolerances that were very tight - getting out of whack.

[Malenko]

so I can buy/make a small one and not have to plug my arcade machine into the wall? I'll take 3

[RayB]

As far as I have understood it.. Bemf is what causes ineffecient motors.  Its also what
causes the current and voltages to reverse directions as it surges.   The faster
the motor goes, the greater the bemf issue.

I've been reading up some more myself (don't ask me why) and BEMF is the natural "opposing force" effect that happens due to .. well, that's the laws of nature for ya (opposite reaction to every action type of thing).

So you're right, eliminating BEMF brings it more efficiency (as a motor), however.....

This is vastly different than a typical generator, in that there is no harsh friction
and resistance to overcome... and yet, they still continue to gain energy.

 You may also not realize, that they are using magnetic bearings too.  This further
reduces friction loss, to almost nothing.

... now you're getting ahead of them. They have NOT demonstrated ANY power generation. They even said so themselves that they won't be demonstrating that until "later this month".

So so far all they can believably claim is getting closer to 100% efficiency. (Or maybe I should say closer to 99.99999% just to be within the laws of physics. ;-) ).

PS: Cheffo, how's your popcorn?

[CheffoJeffo]

PS: Cheffo, how's your popcorn?

I'm out of popcorn, but the fridge is still well-stocked.

[danny_galaga]

Sigh...

Here are the main reasons you actually WANT back EMF in a motor. First point to remember is that there is no such thing as a man made perpetual motion device. Remember this as i explain why you NEED back EMF.

By now everyone reading this thread will know that when a magnetic field passes through a conductor, an electrical current is produced. Conversely, if you run a current through a conductor, it can create an opposing force to a nearby magnetic field. Faraday loved this notion, because the functions are totally reversible, which strangely enough fitted in with his religious beliefs.

So, imagine we have a motor. We apply a current to its wound fields, they create an opposing force to the fixed fields. The details of construction are irrelevant. Say this motor is 12V, like the Steorn demo motors. The fields have quite a low resistance. So when you apply the voltage to the fields, there is a high current draw. Lets say the fields have 1 Ohm resistance. Voltage /current x resistance. You have 12 amps of current.

But hang on, lets go back. Remember that  when a magnetic field passes through a conductor, an electrical current is produced. It doesn't matter that you have just applied current to create a motor. Do you not still have a conductor passing through a magnetic field? Yes, you do. Even as the device is functioning as a motor, it is generating a current. This is back electro motive force. So what of it? Well, naturally the back EMF is less than the applied voltage. But lets have a look at what happens (using ball park figures for demonstration purposes).

Situation 1) Voltage is applied to motor. At rest it is infinitely slow. V=12,R=1, A=12

Situation 2) Motor is now spinning at say 500 rpm. It is producing some back EMF. Say 1V. So now total voltage applied is 11V (12V-1V). So now V=11, R=1, A=11.

Situation 3) Motor is now spinning at 1000 rpm. Back EMF is now 2V. So now V=10,R=1,A=10

Situation 4) Obviously this is an infinitely variable scale. Lets just skip to 10,000 RPM. Back EMF is now say 11.5V (in real life nothing is linear, there is always some sort of curve) So now V=0.5,R=1,A=0.5

edit: i should point out that situations 1 to 4 normally happen in a split second. Very desirable in a lot of cases. For instance, at rest a car starter can draw up to say 500 AMPS. When it is spinning, with no load, maybe 20 AMPS. With a load, say 150 AMPS.

This is both what an electric motor does, and what we desire. Because there is no such thing as a man made perpetual motion machine. Why do we desire this? Because the current draw is directly proportion to the torque produced. Therefore, Our little electric motor has full torque at rest, and least torque at high RPM. This is exactly what is needed in most cases. For example, an electric car, an electric drill. A starter motor for a petrol engine.

A motor is a motor is a motor. They are there to fulfill real mechanical needs. Most of our needs for electrical motors demand torque. Not all mind you. ceiling fans have very little torque. They use induction motors, utilising the single phase a/c mains current instead of a commutator or speed controller. Because of this, they have very little torque, since there is only a narrow range of speeds the motor is designed to work in.

I would bet you a dollar that when they applied a load to that 'regular' motor in the video, they probably used say two fingers on the shaft. And i bet that for the 'perpetual motion machine' (lets call a spade a spade) they could have put a fingertip on top of the shaft for the same speed reduction. That's how little torque that thing probably has. Therefore it takes very little to keep it going. But what's the point of that? Take away the power and it will take longer to stop than a regular motor. Maybe even magnatudes longer. Have they invented the ultimate 'it takes a long time to stop' machine? No, my 200kg flywheel would trump it...

[danny_galaga]

Lesson in basic induction part 2 (yes i know, there wasn't really a part 1)

There is a place for low torque devices that use the properties of electromagnetic induction. Lets do a simple thought experiment. Imagine you have a plastic cup on a shaft supported by bearings. inside the cup is a steel wheel that fits closely. It is also on a supported shaft. The steel wheel is mildly magnetic. If you spin the wheel, will its magnetic force make the plastic cup turn?

Now, suppose the cup is made of aluminium, not plastic. Will the magnetic force of the steel wheel make the aluminium cup turn? The amswer is yes!

How come? Aluminium isn't magnetic, any more than plastic. But, aluminium is a conductor. This is important. remember, if a magnetic field passes through a conductor, a current is produced. So a current is produced in the aluminium cup. This conductor however is not a wire, guiding the current anywhere. The current stays within the cup. You could say it is a dead short. Current is flowing however. What happens to a conductor when current flows through it? It becomes magnetic. Now both the steel wheel and the aluminium cup attract each other. The cup spins.

This is the basis for the humble speedometer. Or was until electronic ones started to appear in the 1990's.

That's the sort of use Steorns 'invention' can be put to. A speedometer has very little back EMF...

[RayB]

Can't let this thread die off without a proper wrap-up. Well here it was, finally after much talk and delay, climactic "proof" of over-unity (more energy out than in)!!

Well... not really. That's what the dude says, but once again, no proof shown unless you want to take him at his word:

Part 1 - blah blah blah


Part 2 - blah blah 327% blah


No voltmeter showing a battery or capacitor being charged up with the "excess energy". No lights being powered... nothing but a squiggly line on an oscilloscope that the layperson has to take at his word is "excess energy".

The key to all this is at 8:30. They sell developer licenses for 419euros. Lets say they got even just 1000 hobbyists to buy licenses so they can play around with this. That's half a million USD. I could live pretty good off that. You? And lets not forget that the license comes with a Non Disclosure Agreement so licensoees can't publicly say it doesnt work.

I guess we'll have to wait and see (again) if their licensees break that agreement or not.

[Xiaou2]

$500,000 with 16+  employees wont last that long... especially technically minded
employee'$ , and high dollar annual salary's like Sean probably gets.  They have
a fulltime film crew documenting their adventure.  Im sure that isnt cheap.

 IMOP, Its also highly doubtful that they would actually get a 1000 hobbyist to shell out half a grand...  Especially considering the Skepticism, and not even knowing IF you
could actually build the thing accurately enough to get the same results.  
 
 In fact, that figure is a drop in the bucket compared to the money they have on loan.

 
 As far as Ive understood:

 1) They showed there is no "Loss" shown from spinning the Rotar.
 2) They show a Gain, from the magnetic interactions that happen when the Rotar spins.
 3) The Excess gain of current (spike) is used to recharge the battery.
 4) All the rest of the power is spent in creating Heat in the coils.
 
 In this machine configuration,  there is not enough current captured to keep the
battery from reduction.   However, as the demo showed, the energy was
rising 8% each turn... and that was without the extra pickup coil enabled.


 SO...Every time the magnetic interaction occurs, there is a gain... and that
gain is independent of the rotar spinning.  Thats amazing.

 Sadly, the Tech is not better displayed for us layman...  But then again, its still
better than the original finding... which was simply some magnet spinning slowly
on a shaft across a meter / sensor.

 The effect is shown, and so now its up to skilled and experienced
mechanical and electrical engineers to build a large scale device that actually
can capture the energy in a useful way.


 According to what they are saying,  they are allowing qualified people to schedule
independent testing starting wed.

[Ed_McCarron]

 

[shmokes]

Xiaou,

When my father died he had an investment account in Nevada that I did not know about.  It has over 3/4 of a million dollars in it.  The problem is, his estate was probated in Utah and we did not know about this account at the time.  Now Scottrade will not release those funds unless we get a lawyer to go through a second probate in Nevada.  I need $5000 to do this in order to hire a lawyer and pay all the court filing fees.  Unfortunately, I am a college student trying to raise a daughter while bringing in no income.  I just don't have the ability to scrape together the $5000.  But if you will send me $5000, I can hire the lawyer to get the money, in which case I will split it with you, 50/50.  I don't know what it will be after taxes, but I guarantee at least $250,000.  I know that $250,000 seems like a lot of money to just give away, but right now I don't have anything, so it's like giving away $250,000 that I never had anyway, so it is worth it to me so that I can at least get the other $250,000-$400,000 which which I can pay off all my student loans and start my new career without any financial burdens hanging over my family.  Please let me know if you are interested and I will give you an address where you can send a money order.

God bless you,
shmokes

[Xiaou2]

Exactly the kind of witless attempt at humor I expect from a drone like yourself.
 
 I find it amusing that you actually Think you are funny.  (let alone intelligent)

 But even more funny, is that fact that you actually put some time into it.
 
 WOW.

 I feel embarrassed for you.

[shmokes]

 

[Ed_McCarron]

Wait!  I've figured it out!

The extra energy is coming from the HAARP program!

 

[RayB]

I dont have access to P&R. I saw that HAARP thread had been moved, and you cant see who started it when its moved, but my first thought was "Xiau2" !

Next you will be telling us all about orgonite.

BTW, I just discovered an over-unity device in my home. It's my cat! She outputs lots of static discharge. I'm pretty sure it's more than the food input.

What do I do about that? Humidifier?

[saint]

I dont have access to P&R.

All you have to do is ask... and abandon your soul at the door

[RayB]

I dont have access to P&R.

All you have to do is ask... and abandon your soul at the door

No thanks. I waste my breath enough on topics I shouldn't give two thoughts to already... 

[Xiaou2]

orgonite

 Get Real.

 Just because I believe that its possible that typical Science may have overlooked
something (or simply never ran into it)... Does not mean I believe that sitting in some
odd shaped box will make you a Superbeing.

 If you would have told a typical scientist about Quantum Mechanics 50 yrs ago...
they would have laughed you out of existence.

 Its very easy to poke and point at what we do not understand..  And even harder
for the Intellectuals to admit / realize that they dont know everything or that
*Gasp*   They are Wrong!

 Good thing we have  'dumb'-smart  people who never give up, have Open minds,
... and seek to push the envelope... else we wouldnt have any new discoveries.

 
 Ray... I bet you actually Believe that the President actually has Power dont you?
heh

[CheffoJeffo]

If you would have told a typical scientist about Quantum Mechanics 50 yrs ago... they would have laughed you out of existence.

Not really ... the science was fairly well-established by then.

Perhaps you should LEARN some science before trying to TEACH us about science.

[shmokes]

. . . they would have laughed you out of existence.

Is this possible?  The intellectuals would probably say no, but the more daring among us, those of us with that spark--that elusive flash of genius--we say, maybe . . . just maybe . . . .  And then you'll be sorry!

[RayB]

You know what... Buy an Orbo license Xiau2.

The comments here are entertaining by the way...
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.
(how do i link to the comments without the video appearing here?)

You seem to excuse Steorn on the basis that they dont need to explain it in layman's terms, yet their choice of venue and exhibition of this tech is very "layman". It would have taken their engineer all of a day to rig the device up to a cell phone charger, or large capacitor with a voltmeter display, or similar.

If the tech works like they claim, they should be able to run it off only a capacitor, and hand-start it (or start it with the air gun like in past demos).

[Xiaou2]

 They have said they can not use a capacitor because they discharge too slow
for what they need.   As fast as a cap seems..  its still a bottleneck (for voltage I
believe), where as a battery yeilds instantly what they need for that moment
in time.

 As for Overunity, it does not have to be closed loop to be Overunity.  Amazing
how people dont seem to understand that concept.

 What they have said makes sense.  However, that does not mean Im gona lay
down cash either.  I am in no way qualified to be able to reproduce the effect to
test it for myself.

[shmokes]

(how do i link to the comments without the video appearing here?)

You could use Tinyurl.

[danny_galaga]

They have said they can not use a capacitor because they discharge too slow
for what they need.   As fast as a cap seems..  its still a bottleneck (for voltage I
believe), where as a battery yeilds instantly what they need for that moment
in time.

 As for Overunity, it does not have to be closed loop to be Overunity.  Amazing
how people dont seem to understand that concept.

 What they have said makes sense.  However, that does not mean Im gona lay
down cash either.  I am in no way qualified to be able to reproduce the effect to
test it for myself.

Xiao, a capacitor is the fastest discharging thing there is! I commend you for your open minded attitude. Maybe it's time to admit this is just some sort of publicity stunt?

Did anyone read my little explanation of why back EMF is actually good?

[RayB]

Did anyone read my little explanation of why back EMF is actually good?

I did, but couldn't that depend on the type of motor? This thing isn't a standard motor.  I've seen it called a "reluctance motor", and a variant of a "pulse motor". A couple people on Youtube have replicated it and though none claim to get more energy out than in, they do say it is extremely efficient (for what it does).

[Xiaou2]

Xiao, a capacitor is the fastest discharging thing there is!

"We need a perfectly flat current profile to cause the effect that we need - No capacitor can do that, simple fact - hence no capacitor. The battery that we are using does this, it has a very fast current rise time and holds the current steady during the pulse, this we need. Thats why we use it, no other reason at all."


 DG,

 My reply to Both - Is the exact same answer:  One who Thinks he knows it all,
simply spouts what he knows back like a tape recorder.   You are so wrapped up
in what you Think is going on, that you dont even read the details to find out
What they are doing differently and why.   Again, a defeated attitude... most
likely taught to you by the corrupted school systems.  Too bad.

 Weather or not Orbo proves to be a success is irrelevant compared to the poor
mindless citizens on this planet.  Humanity does not stand much chance with
mass attitudes like this...

 To "Think" ,is not merely to repeat what was recited and memorized.

[hypernova]

When did this change to a philosophical thread?

[Hoopz]

When did this change to a philosophical thread?

Started as that since there isn't any science involved. 

X just loves to preach when anyone has the audacity to question "science".   

[Samstag]

"We need a perfectly flat current profile to cause the effect that we need - No capacitor can do that, simple fact - hence no capacitor. The battery that we are using does this, it has a very fast current rise time and holds the current steady during the pulse, this we need. Thats why we use it, no other reason at all."

No capacitor can do that?  Simple fact?

You waste time arguing for this guy when you'd be better served spending that time learning basic electronics or physics.

[AtomSmasher]

To "Think" ,is not merely to repeat what was recited and memorized.

To "Think" is also not blindly following outrageous claims.

[danny_galaga]

Did anyone read my little explanation of why back EMF is actually good?

I did, but couldn't that depend on the type of motor? This thing isn't a standard motor.  I've seen it called a "reluctance motor", and a variant of a "pulse motor". A couple people on Youtube have replicated it and though none claim to get more energy out than in, they do say it is extremely efficient (for what it does).

My view is that it is 'efficient' only in the fact that it does little work. My example of going one step further and just using a huge flywheel that you spin and leave to its own devices illustrates the futility of making something that 'barely' works. Steorns device is just a fancier version of this



ANYTHING mechanical that purports to be perpetual motion is just a fancier version of that. And they all result in something really weak that doesn't quite work, because all the apparent inefficiencies have been trimmed away to make it 'perpetual'. The end result will always be something that isn't quite as good as a flywheel, which is patently not perpetual.

XIAO, prove me wrong. Buy a licence. It's chicken feed compared to the endless wealth you'll reap...

[SavannahLion]

Will you please stop photographing my house?

I get no privacy thanks to you paparazzi.

[danny_galaga]

DUH. That's a pencil drawing. And tell your wife to go slower when she's putting out the washing, it's hard to get an accurate representation when she's flitting about...

[Xiaou2]

You waste time arguing for this guy when you'd be better served spending that time learning basic electronics or physics.

 I merely stated what he said.   Is it true?  I dont know.  However, logically it
would seem that if it was not true, then there would have been a thousand post
disputing it from people who Did know.  There was no such post.

 

And they all result in something really weak that doesn't quite work

 Apparently, there is a device an artists made that uses magnets, a steel ball, and some
weights.. that is perpetual.   Its housed in a museum I believe.

 Correctly, you really couldnt capture any energy out of that system.


 However, what Strorn has discovered is vastly different.  To do with magnetic
interactions... which cause a gain of electrical output.   Scaled up to a much
larger size... its possible that it might be feasible to get usable energy out of such a
system.

 Im not saying the thing couldnt be a Scam.  However, if you add up all the details,
it points more towards 'They have something interesting here'.

 I dont blindly accept.  I merely have an open mind.


 

[danny_galaga]

 Apparently, there is a device an artists made that uses magnets, a steel ball, and some
weights.. that is perpetual.   Its housed in a museum I believe.


 

 

[Ed_McCarron]

 Apparently, there is a device an artists made that uses magnets, a steel ball, and some
weights.. that is perpetual.   Its housed in a museum I believe.


 

 

Yep.  Pretty much.  The 'something for nothing' crowd just refuses to get it.

Xaiou's World:

[Xiaou2]

 
Nevermind.  Im finding contradictory information on how long it had been running.
Still, its one heck of a device.



http://theorderoftime.com/science/free_energy/support-files/finsrud.html

[RayB]

Very cool pendulum effect.

The problem with devices like that one, AND the Orbo is that they likely can't be scaled up very much, like you say. The molecules that make up matter don't scale, and the world's gravity and other natural laws are constant. This means that certain effects won't just scale 1:1 (its not like scaling up a 3D model in a computer simulation). But I do look forward to seeing giant Orbos on Youtube. 

Here's an interesting implementation that's almost completely frictionless (but imagine trying to scale that up and keep it balanced the same, and have enough magnetic cushion, etc):


Anyone read italian?

[SavannahLion]

DUH. That's a pencil drawing. And tell your wife to go slower when she's putting out the washing, it's hard to get an accurate representation when she's flitting about...

Durn kids, git erf mah lawn! 'N' stop lurkin' et mah wife!

[danny_galaga]

Very cool pendulum effect.

That pendulum is a beautiful piece of art! There is somewhere another so called 'perpetual motion' machine in a museum that trumps that. I'll see if i can find it. Basically, its been going for a CENTURY or TWO! It consists of a bell that is rung once a minute (or hour or summink). The motive force is our buddy the capacitor. It's just a really big super efficient capacitor that discharges through the bell regularly. Eventually it will go flat.

Edit: a lead. it's called a 'Duluc dry pile' high voltsge source:

http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/emotor/duluc.html

edit 2: Got it! It's called the Oxford Bell:

http://www.improbable.com/airchives/paperair/volume7/v7i3/long-run-7-3.html

Ooh! The 'pitch drop' experiment is in my town! I'll have to take a look sometime (",)


"At the moment the pitch drop is at the end of the most recent drop (which has not quite dropped) and so at its most interesting point in almost ten years, if you consider watching pitch flow interesting"

[Xiaou2]

FYI - Steorns Orbo device uses that same Magnetic Bearing setup... however,
their magnetic bearings are vertical instead of horizontal.

 Take a look at this & see what you think:

 

 
Full webpage descriptions:

http://jnaudin.free.fr/steorn/html/orboeffecten.htm


 As for scaling, If my understanding is correct..  the larger the rotar, the more pickup
coils you can put round the diameter.  From what I saw, it looks like there are
both the toroidal coils that drive the thing, as well as pickup coils which were mounted
above them on a different plane.

[Ed_McCarron]

Nevermind.  Im finding contradictory information on how long it had been running.
Still, its one heck of a device.



http://theorderoftime.com/science/free_energy/support-files/finsrud.html

Its a cool art piece, but from the artists page:

Reidar says the machine does stop on occasions but that this is not on a daily basis. To start the machine the pendulums are swung by hand, this puts an external input energy into the system, given that the machine does stop this means it is not over 100% efficient.

[danny_galaga]

Its a cool art piece, but from the artists page:

Reidar says the machine does stop on occasions but that this is not on a daily basis. To start the machine the pendulums are swung by hand, this puts an external input energy into the system, given that the machine does stop this means it is not over 100% efficient.

No ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- 

[Xiaou2]

Yet this was found on the page listed:

 "In 1996 the ball finally kept moving! This newspaper picture was shot when the machine ran for 6 weeks. And so is it running ever since, with some maintenance now and then. Maintenance: 1) cleaning the track. 2) Redo the resin fix of the magnet array in the base. "

 As I said, inconsistent data.

[danny_galaga]

Yet this was found on the page listed:

 "In 1996 the ball finally kept moving! This newspaper picture was shot when the machine ran for 6 weeks. And so is it running ever since, with some maintenance now and then. Maintenance: 1) cleaning the track. 2) Redo the resin fix of the magnet array in the base. "

 As I said, inconsistent data.

Sometimes artists say that a painting starts off with a perfectly clean, white canvas. The very first brush stroke makes it not perfect anymore, and every other brush stroke that follows is an attempt to make it as perfect as it used to be. I know i bang on about flywheels all the time, but all these attempts at perpetual motion (at least where there is mechanical action involved) are akin to the artists attempt to get back to the perfect canvas. The perfect canvas in this case is the humble flywheel. Everything else on this flywheel is superfluous. And like i say, the flywheel itself isn't a perpetual motion device. But it's the closest mechanical thing.

Think of it this way. If you put a disk in space, and spun it, what would happen? It would spin. And spin, and spin. It would seemingly do this forever thus fitting the idea of perpetual motion. But it won't spin forever. Even in space there are things that will collide with it, thus causing friction. Space dust for instance. Cosmic rays i don't think would have any effect, but over a long period of time, maybe other radiation could have an effect not dissimilar to spinning in air. Anyway, regular old dust and larger objects would slow it down over time. No idea of the scale, thousands of years? Millions? Still not perpetual motion. If it were though, you can't do anything with it, tapping into its spin will slow it down.

Now take that beautiful pendulum and put it into space with our spinning disk. They can have a sort of 'race'. Which would spin longer? The disk, with it's single moving part and no friction (not even a bearing, just set it spinning) or the pendulum, with it's hundreds of parts, each which takes energy to overcome the friction it inevitably creates?

[shmokes]

Your problem, Danny, if that is your real name, is that you just don't want to believe badly enough.   

[RayB]

Hey Danny, you were saying something about flywheels?

http://tech.slashdot.org/story/10/02/13/020209/Porsche-Unveils-911-Hybrid-With-Flywheel-Booster

[RayB]

Sorry to revive this thread again, but after a couple months of quiet since their "show" ended, they decided to issue their latest press release announcing the official opening of their developer program. Yesterday was April 1.

[danny_galaga]

Sorry to revive this thread again, but after a couple months of quiet since their "show" ended, they decided to issue their latest press release announcing the official opening of their developer program. Yesterday was April 1.

Wow, this has certainly been the most elaborate April fools set up i've ever seen. Well played Xiaou, you had us going there!

[Xiaou2]

Heh.   Those guys love to rile the non-believers/haters up... so its very suiting that
they actually release something on Apr1.    I personally wouldnt have chosen to do
that... but I understand why they did it.

 As for the tech...  there have been some interesting results from outside
experimenters on solid state (no moving parts) orbo designs.

 Will it prove to be real?  Only time will tell.

[shmokes]

How much time, lmao?

[Ed_McCarron]

Meh, two, three thousand years.

[Xiaou2]

 Im still waiting for the smart guys to tell us what and Who put the
universe here.  What designed and made "Consciousness" even possible...etc.

 Until you can answer that in great detail,  (not:  "It was always here"),
you are pretty much clueless to the full operations of the universe... and thus,
do not know every bit of what Is... and what Is NOT possible.

 Unlike yourself, I do not laugh at stupidity.  I feel sorry for it.
And such attitudes show very clearly... human stupidity, at its finest.

[shmokes]

Since nobody can satisfactorily explain to me the origin of the universe, I therefore believe in all things ridiculous.

[danny_galaga]

Hey Danny, you were saying something about flywheels?

http://tech.slashdot.org/story/10/02/13/020209/Porsche-Unveils-911-Hybrid-With-Flywheel-Booster

Now see, Xiaou, this is the sort of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- that advances us. Ok, the idea of using a flywheel to store waste energy from braking has been around since the 70's. But this is brilliant. We waste a stack of energy in braking. And it takes a lot of energy to accelerate. So regenerative braking saves some of it. Now feed it back to two motors in the front wheels to boost you out of a turn. Bloody brilliant! About the only time you really need 4wd on a road car is when cornering. This way, you have 4wd at the only time you really need it, and the extra power (160hp!) is pure waste energy recycled.

This is the sort of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- you should be drawing our attention to Xiaou. People who are knuckling down and actually achieving stuff, instead of being all mystical n ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- to obfuscate their lack of success...

Edit: I should say that YOU are being all mystical to obfuscate Steorns lack of success.