Any 1 player games hacked for 2 simultaneous players? (Asteroids, Berzerk, DK?)

[HanoiBoi]

Any such thing as an Asteroids (or Space Duel) hack that allows 2 players to play Asteroids simultaneously, as is basically done in Space Duel?  Space duel is great, but would love to play two players with the original rocks and spaceships.

Can 2 Marios run around in Donkey Kong?  Can 2 players escape Evil Otto?  You get the idea...

I'll be surprised if this is a new question, but I'll be dmned if I can find it!

[Lo_Wire]

I dont think its agood idea start hacking mame roms, as they ruin the original experience I guess,

But in saying that I would love to play 4 player Metal slug.

[HanoiBoi]

Please don't poop on my parade.     There's a lot out there that ruins the original experience.  For one, we're all about 25-30 years older.

I'm curious to know if it's been done, and/or can it be done.

[RayB]

They weren't designed for it, so no, it can't realistically be done other than through ROM and Emulator hackery. (I'm assuming you were thinking more of original hardware hacks).

[HanoiBoi]

They weren't designed for it, so no, it can't realistically be done other than through ROM and Emulator hackery. (I'm assuming you were thinking more of original hardware hacks).

I'm not exactly sure what is meant by hardware hacks.  Perhaps I posted in the wrong area, which may have lead you to believe that I was referring to original cabinets, jamma boards and control panels. 

I am simply referring to ROMs to be used with MAME.

[ChadTower]

Definitely possible by the right coders but I haven't seen any.

[CheffoJeffo]

I haven't seen any either, but that may be since most arcade ROM hacking seems to be done by hobbyists working with original cabinets and the controls don't lend themselves to multiplayer play.

And then there is the fact that MAMErs haven't been the most supportive of those folks who do hack arcade ROMS.

[ChadTower]

And then there is the fact that MAMErs haven't been the most supportive of those folks who do hack arcade ROMS.

Without any implied statement on ethics on anything involved:

MAMErs seem to LOVE new hacks.  They just don't want to pay for them.

[Level42]

A +1 to Cheffo and Chad !

It would even be greater if someone modded original 2 player games to have them play over the internet.

It's often that I lack a (capable) opponent/mate on MB.

Back to the original idea: it would require some pretty good knowledge of the game program. Of course mame dev's are the "closest to the fire" to take it a step further. I love the idea of having two player asteroids. It shouldn't be to hard to do it on that game. Berzerk would probably work good too, but I don't see a 2 player DK version happening, I think it will take too much from the hardware plus I doubt it would be very much fun.

[ChadTower]

It could be done by someone good enough to decompile the binaries without any knowledge of the code beforehand.  If I were to want to do this, though, I'd be awfully tempted to just recreate the whole thing without regard to the original processor or MAME.  Most of the early games are simple enough that it would probably be easier to start over with a modern language than to decompile for a 20 year obsolete processor.  That would make it a whole lot easier to add the networking capabilities that Level42 mentioned and would be a much better payoff.

[Hurray Banana]

It could be done by someone good enough to decompile the binaries without any knowledge of the code beforehand.  If I were to want to do this, though, I'd be awfully tempted to just recreate the whole thing without regard to the original processor or MAME.  Most of the early games are simple enough that it would probably be easier to start over with a modern language than to decompile for a 20 year obsolete processor.  That would make it a whole lot easier to add the networking capabilities that Level42 mentioned and would be a much better payoff.

It would be really difficult to re-write the original code so that it still ran on the original hardware (assuming you still had the same RAM and ROM limits).

It would be easy to write from scratch a 2 player asteroids or berzerk.

You need to think carefully about the play rules to ensure it was actually fun i.e can you shoot each other, run into each other, who does evil otto go for etc...

I could knock this up using the game engine I've written for my students (I haven't got time at the mo as we have exams in January but I do need to re-write the collision engine over Xmas - teachers never stop working! so I may use Asteriods 2player as my testing system).

[HanoiBoi]

It could be done by someone good enough to decompile the binaries without any knowledge of the code beforehand.  If I were to want to do this, though, I'd be awfully tempted to just recreate the whole thing without regard to the original processor or MAME.  Most of the early games are simple enough that it would probably be easier to start over with a modern language than to decompile for a 20 year obsolete processor.  That would make it a whole lot easier to add the networking capabilities that Level42 mentioned and would be a much better payoff.

It would be really difficult to re-write the original code so that it still ran on the original hardware (assuming you still had the same RAM and ROM limits).

It would be easy to write from scratch a 2 player asteroids or berzerk.

You need to think carefully about the play rules to ensure it was actually fun i.e can you shoot each other, run into each other, who does evil otto go for etc...

I could knock this up using the game engine I've written for my students (I haven't got time at the mo as we have exams in January but I do need to re-write the collision engine over Xmas - teachers never stop working! so I may use Asteriods 2player as my testing system).

Hurray Banana!   

Wow, a 2 Player Asteroids would certainly be appreciated by me, and most likely many others.

As far as play goes, with regard to crashing and shooting, it would probably be best to be able to fly right through the other player and completely ignore the other player's ship and shots.  This shooting aspect is seen in Space Duel (when connected) and Rip Off.  In Space Duel though, when Player 1's ship encounters Player 2's, they bump off each other.  In Rip Off, they crash 

Another option, though more disruptive to original game play would be to have the victim of friendly fire disappear for a moment as if it was destroyed, but then return with no lost 'life'.  This is as it is in Space Duel, when the ships aren't connected.

Did someone say 'hyperspace or shield'?  I'd vote to keep the hyperspace as it's more 'risky' to use and of course truer to Asteroids.

[Hurray Banana]

Ok, I'll definitely try and knock this together over Xmas, It'll be built in XNA (as me students use C#) so people will need the XNA and DirectX runtimes.

I'll post it when enough of it is done for it to be playable.

[Spyridon]

Some of the xbox arcade versions have added co-op modes to the game. For example, in Robotron, one person moves while the other person fires.

[CrazyKongFan]

Seems like one of the X-in-1 boards (96-in-1?) has a 2-player version of Ms Pac, but I'm not 100% sure. I don't know how well a 2 player DK would work, but Asteroids would be fun. I disagree with HanoiBoi though on one aspect though, I think it would be more interesting if you could shoot each other too (would make it require cooperative play like Joust). Berzerk might be fun too, although I don't know how you'd handle the bonus and point awards (do both players get the points when robots destroy themselves?) Another one that might be interesting would be Centipede/Millipede.

[Hurray Banana]

I disagree with HanoiBoi though on one aspect though, I think it would be more interesting if you could shoot each other too (would make it require cooperative play like Joust).

Simple to make this an option or make it like Joust and have survival stages

[ChadTower]

It would be really difficult to re-write the original code so that it still ran on the original hardware (assuming you still had the same RAM and ROM limits).

That was actually stated explicitly above as not being a requirement. 

[Xiaou2]

 FYI:  Space Duel is Basically  2 Player Asteriods

 IMOP, a game that screams 2player mod / reprogram  is Discs of Tron.

[CheffoJeffo]

.

[Scotty]

Misfit Mame has a version of Ms. Pac that has been hacked to run 2 players at the same time.  Also, while not arcade related the Atari release of Asteroids for the 400/800/XL/XE computer line allowed 2 and even 4 players at the same time.  This was a lot of fun.  If you have a cocktail table runing Mame, there is Space Invaders 2.  Not deluxe or Part II, just 2.  This allowed both players to shoot at their invaders as well as the other players invaders and ship.  Great idea, just poorly implemented, as speed was a lot faster than normal Space Invaders.

[HanoiBoi]

That's all good stuff Scotty!  Thanks for sharing.  I really do believe that multi player Asteroids would be tons of fun.  Do you happen to remember game play with regard to shooting each other or flying into each other?

I've never heard of Misfit Mame - sounds interesting.  Was the Ms Pac Man still pretty much dead on game-wise, except for the fact that there were 2 people playing at the same time?

The Space Invaders 2 sounds reasonable too.  I actually thought that Galaga would be 'Aces!' as a 2 player simultaneous game.  Frogger would work well too.

[Dartful Dodger]

I really do believe that multi player Asteroids would be tons of fun.  Do you happen to remember game play with regard to shooting each other or flying into each other?

It's not.

FYI:  Space Duel is Basically  2 Player Asteriods

It's like Combat on the Atari 2600, only with lower quality graphics.

[Xiaou2]

 Your out of your mind.


 Atari 2600 = 192 x 160   (and blurry at that considering the RF output only)
 128 palette  max (104 pal)
 
 Atari 7800  = 160x240, 320x240 (160x288/320x288 if PAL)
 25 on-screen colours out of possible 256

 Space Duel = 256 x 231
 32768  Colors

 
 Go take a peek at Space Duel for the 7800, and compare it to the Arcade Version.


 Space Duel, unlike asteroids, actually has 3D rotating shapes.   It may not be
as  'Classic'  looking,  but it is the same type of game.


 Personally, I prefer Asteriods Deluxe.  But then again, AD does not have multiplayer
either...

[Hurray Banana]

I've got some code together for this (not had much time), and the modes I have thought of so far include:

Normal: just try to clear the asteriods

Co-operation: requires each asteroid to be hit once by each player, once you have already hit are indestructable to further shots from you.

Your it: I had a couple of ideas for this, if you get shot by the other player then you become a massive centre of mass which keeps increasing (this forces the asteroids to come towards you), or you become a target for the UFO's. (I haven't put the code in for the UFO's yet).

I've been hacking at ideas so my codes a bit of a mess and needs tidying up properly. I'll post a vid of the AI playing the game in demo mode, showing normal and CO-OP. (I'll try to do this today).

Any other ideas for game modes would be appreciated.

I'll post some exe code when I've tidied it up a bit and put the options code in there.

[HanoiBoi]

Interesting takes Hurray.  I've got a few questions bouncing around now...

In Co-op, are the asteroids color coded so that you know what you've hit?  If you shot it, can it still kill you?

Also, a big plus of 2-player for me would be to allow players who aren't necessarily 'good' still be able to play along, and not get as easily frustrated.  The 'better' player could watch their back, per se.

In Normal mode, all the original questions arise with regard to shooting or crashing into each other.  Personally, I'd prefer to not be able to do either.

In You're It, would there be a way to revert back from the Mass?  By clearing the screen, perhaps?

Also...this hasn't been discussed here, but I'm guessing you've considered allowing the scores to increase versus rolling over at 99990.   

I look forward to seeing what you've come up with.

Hey, Happy New Year!

[Hurray Banana]

Here's a video I took with Frapps, it's only running at 60fps to keep the size down and res 640x480, but it will run at anything supported up to 720p. There is no audio in the video, but I've been using the samples from Mame for asteroids.



As for normal mode bullets and ships don't affect the other player (it would be crappy otherwise).

co-op asteroids are white until hit then change to the colour of the player who still needs to hit them.

I hadn't thought about max score holding, what would be nice would be to have a roll over but then have some indicator to the number of rollovers.

I'll put the saucers in and mess with the your it mode and put a video up about that asap, to give you a look at possible ideas.

EDIT: I'll post future vids at 720p so you can see the detail better.

A am probably gonna implement a shield and possible a gravity repulse (to force the asteroids away), but I need to think about how these will work and possibly how it may affect the other player.

[CheffoJeffo]

I gots to say ... that looks pretty cool.

 

[Hurray Banana]

I gots to say ... that looks pretty cool.

 

Cheers, like I say it's pretty rough at the mo, but I'll try and put a framework around it tonight.

[CrazyKongFan]

Bouncing off each other might make it interesting. Some other co-op games do that (Joust, Mario Bros, etc).

[Hurray Banana]

Bouncing off each other might make it interesting. Some other co-op games do that (Joust, Mario Bros, etc).

Yeah that might be nice.

Unfortunately I've run out of time for this week to work on this, I need to concentrate and get some work done for my 2nd and 1st year Computing classes (got exams at end of this month). I've also got to sort out my 2nd yr IT students who are using my engine to create their games front ends. I'll post something new next weekend.

It's a pain being in charge of all the IT and Computing courses at my College as it doesn't leave me enough time to do all the things I want to do.

[wp34]

That is outright awesome!   

[Hurray Banana]

That is outright awesome!   

Thanks for that.

Just uploaded a couple of 720P (watch them in HD mode in full screen if you can) vids showing the basic idea of Your It  mode and Attack mode.

Attack mode


Your It mode


In the attack mode the missiles will relentlessly follow the players and they still need to clear the level of asteroids. I might make the thrust be continually on. The missiles obviously need tweaking these are just seeded with random parameters for speed, aim interval and rotation speed.

[HanoiBoi]

Wow, Hurray Banana!  I wish I had your knowledge and skills!  That's some crazy neat stuff.

Hopefully, you'll keep some simpler options in there as well.   

[RayB]

Cool. Have you seen this multiplayer Asteroids (minus any actual asteroids)

http://nonoba.com/chris/multiplayer-asteroids/multiplayer-asteroids-battle37

[HanoiBoi]

Cool. Have you seen this multiplayer Asteroids (minus any actual asteroids)

http://nonoba.com/chris/multiplayer-asteroids/multiplayer-asteroids-battle37

Holy cow!  If you're gonna try that link, make sure you bring some Advil.  That's crazy.

[Xiaou2]

 Hurray,  

  I have some Ideas I started to write up a day ago:
-----

 Nice start Hurray,

 I really do Not think the 1 hit per player is the best option.   But also, the original
game was designed for only 1 player... thus what to do to up the difficulty?

 I think the solution is to make it take many more shots to break an asteroid apart.

 IE:

 5 hits to crack large rock into two.  
 4 hits to crack med rock
 3 hits to crack small
 2 hits to vaporize

 In the original, I think only 4 bullets are allowed onscreen at one time.  The game
will not let you fire, until at least one is off-screen.   Having 8 per screen is really gona
pollute and create massive mayhem, unless it takes more shots to destroy the rocks.

 This will also get better co-operation going as well.

 
 * Bumping into the other ship should Push them both, instead of pass through, or destroying them.   However, an 'option' for destroying each of them could be added, for
added challenge.

 * Bullets could also push the other player... as they are stopped by the other players
"Auto-Harmonics Shields"   Basically, since you and your partner have the same
shield harmonics... your missiles are tuned to be auto-stopped. (with possible
exception to the photons  )  However, the force should be enough to nudge your
ship a little bit from each shot.
 
 All other shield operations must be manually engaged.

 * When bullets hit an Asteroid, the Asteroid should flicker a little, and or maybe
tiny particles should be fly out and fade away very quickly (dont want too much
garbage on an already busy screen).  

 (Color Changing asteroids just dont seem to look very good)

 * Please add some enemy squadrons similar (or duplicated) to asteroids deluxe.

 As the firepower is increased, it probably should take more hits to take them out.
(or use of more attackers will balance things out)

 * Unlike Asteroids Deluxe,  this game Should have a small meter which shows how
much shield energy you have left.

 (Test an option for Re-charging the shield-bar by holding down the fire button for
6 seconds. IE: you can not fire at all in order to charge)

 - Test Photon weapon option:  Bigger diameter projectile, explodes in a large
3" diameter circle, with huge power level  (like arcade star-trek)  Limit of 1 per guy
for entire game... or re-replenished at docking station every 7 levels?

 Other Ideas:

 - More asteroids could come into play as some are destroyed... or simply come at
selected time units.  This could make levels last longer.


 (I reserve the rights to re-using these ideas in future creations)


 Some rough graphical concept pics:

[Xiaou2]

no comments ?   

[Hurray Banana]

no comments ?   

Don't be offended mate, I'm ultra busy at the moment at work which unfortunately digs into a large piece of my time away from work as well (such is the life of a teacher and course leader).

I had thought about a lot of the things you've said such as multi hits and the like. (including the asteroid deluxe homers).

Remember that what I have produced are just ideas and weren't supposed to reflect how it would be when played as that would actually involve me playing it. I've just set up AI to play the game so I haven't played except to bug hunt issues.

I'll have a little time over the weekend and put some of your ideas in (the sparks and mulit hits). The impulse collisions will take a little longer as I need to re-write my collisions system to allow this (I need to do it for my students), so I want to do this properly so it's easy to control and integrate into their game systems.

Thanks for the ideas tho' they are appreciated.

The colours are pretty naff, it was just a couple of colours I made up.

[Xiaou2]

 Hi Hurray,

   Not offended.  Just was excited to get a response.

 I myself didnt do much further idea work..  but I spend a little time playing with
the concept sketch... and also had a few more ideas:

 Im thinking maybe it would be cool if the asteroids did not pass thru each other..
and instead, could collide and deflect each other.    (Not splitting them, but just
rebounding them with some small particle effects, a tiny lighting spot at the
collision surface, and a nice rumble sound effect)

 Graphical:

 1)  The longer the player has held the thrusters down... the longer and brighter the
flame trail gets.

 2)  Possible simulated vector lighting system.   All objs still 2d, but limited light angles
calculated so that the faces (lines) are shaded to make them pop out a but more.

 3)  As per my drawing, I found that filling in the Vectors seems to really add impact
and a fresh look to the game.   Lends well to backdrops, or slight color grads.


 Other:

 Im thinking it might also be interesting to add a Tractor Beam, to collect the smallest
rock fragments or gems that come from the obliterated asteroids.  This could simply
be for Money / points.  But it could also be used for energy to re-charge the shields.
Im still on the fence about complex energy systems.  Gota take a little more time to
consider.

 Obviously, the look inst anywhere near as important as the gameplay.  I merely
was having fun designing a look that I felt would be a nice enhancement .

[HanoiBoi]

While I can appreciate all the additional ideas and enthusiasm regarding options such as graphics, game play etc., the main intent of this thread was to see if anyone has, or if anyone can, develop the same games but to allow for 2 player simultaneous play and keep the original game as pristine as possible.

With that, the questions arose as to how to handle opponents shots and their ships (do we crash, bump or ignore?).  Once that's decided, you've pretty much got the game design.

Changing much more than that really creates a new game, albeit inspired by Asteroids. (see Space Duel, Asteroids Deluxe, Blasteroids, Sinistar even?)

If it were up to me, I want to see the same rocks, floating in the same behavior, but simply with the additional option of playing with another person.

If you add bumping rocks, requiring multiple hits, by both players....you'll get creamed every time.  Asteroids is about reaction.  There'd be no time to react to those instances in that screen space.

Please, let's keep a simple design for a 2P Asteroids, but feel free to create other options as well!

-HanoiBoi