Its Here: Ultimarc AimTrak Light Gun Module

[severdhed]

i know it isnt exactly on topic, but since the bar is similiar to the wii, i just wanted to ask why people are saying the wii is so inaccurate?  i fired up Ghost squad last night on my wii, calibrated the gun and turned the crosshairs off, it was very accurate.  i played through the first training mode where you shoot various moving targets...i played it 6 times and missed a total of1 shot, which i blame on poor aim.

this was played on a 102" screen, from about 16ft away...surely not the same circumstances as an arcade cabinet, but it was very accurate.  now, to get it to work from that distance, i did mod my wii sensor bar so that it is roughly 16" long, but it is still a small bar in the top center of the screen..i see no reason why a similar setup on a smaller scale would not be equally as accurate.

[bungy]

When I first read about the AimTrak, I immediately thought "NES Zapper".  So I got a few off craigslist to look inside and start planning.  Turns out, the trigger mech uses a standard microswitch with an arm.  The barrel is plenty big enough for the AimTrack module.

Are you sure the barrel is big enough? I don't have one but the end of the barrel doesn't look very big to me...

I'm positive.  The AimTrak is 10mm x 16mm x 40mm.  That's pretty tiny, but I did measure the barrel to be sure.

[AndyWarne]

Is there going to be some sort of cover for the sensor bar available (I am thinking to make it look like a wii sensor bar)? If I were going to put this on a cabinet it would be the one I have already put together and I would hate to have to try and completely redesign the front glass and bezel in an attempt to hide the bright green pcb and leds sticking off the top of the TV. If there were some sort of cover for it all I would have to do is cut a notch out of my bezel and stick it on instead of trying to get smoked glass or something like that.

Yes the ready-made version of the gun will have an enclosed LED bar.

[AndyWarne]

 I merely fail to see how a system which has only 1 bank of leds, which are all centeralized in
one location can be more accurate than a system which places the leds at all 4 corners of the
screen.   

 

Its very strange stating that I should have designed this in a different way, along the lines of another product which has documented limitations.
Using a LED on each corner was dismissed at the outset because thats the reason the Topgun needs to be so far from the screen.
If the camera needs to be able to see all 4 corners it means that when the gun is pointed for example at the top left corner, it needs to be able to see the bottom right as well. Its just not feasible, the angle of view would be too great.

[FrizzleFried]

 And, Im being a realist... not being Negative.
 

No... you're being an ---uvula---... and on purpose.  How about letting people get their hands on the units before being critical?  Oh,  because that would run counter with your douchetastic personality...

[kronic24601]

Andy, REALLY Important question. I didn't see this anywhere in your posts.

What are the physical dimensions (width, length, and height) of the board you are using? I have two ol Act-Labs GS guns (image below) and the barrel is rounded so the dimensions are super important. It probably can handle just a hair of 3/4", but it depends on how tall it is.

Judging by the photo, and the standard size of a USB plug, it looks to be 3/4-1" wide? Can you confirm the exact dimensions please?

Surprisingly the dimensions are on the product page which Andy linked to



I think the 10mm height is to the center of the tracking camera so I would imagine the total height is about 18mm so I think you should be ok.

This looks like another great project from Ultimarc. I wish people wouldn't hate on it and wait until it has been tested. Knowing Andy the product will be great and he wouldn't release anything that wasn't 110%. I look forward to seeing some reviews. 

DOH! Don't know how I missed that  Thanks! Looks like it should fit (with modifications of course). Time to bust out the dremel tool.

[Beretta]

Is there going to be some sort of cover for the sensor bar available (I am thinking to make it look like a wii sensor bar)? If I were going to put this on a cabinet it would be the one I have already put together and I would hate to have to try and completely redesign the front glass and bezel in an attempt to hide the bright green pcb and leds sticking off the top of the TV. If there were some sort of cover for it all I would have to do is cut a notch out of my bezel and stick it on instead of trying to get smoked glass or something like that.

i dont see why you could'nt drill holes in the bezel for the led's and then hide the PCB behind the bezel boarder.

seems like the best solution imo.

[kronic24601]

Ok, I re-read, and didn't see the answer to this so perhaps someone can enlighten me. Currently I am "seting-up" my cab, and I have not disabled the mouse cursor. But I'm assuming that once I do so we won't be able to visibly calibrate the gun?

To further explain what I mean, when the computer boots up, if you are trying to "hide" windows, one of the things people do is run some regedit to hide the cursor icon.

If the calibration requires seeing the mouse icon, won't that be a problem? (please someone correct me if I am wrong).

[bungy]

I think the 10mm height is to the center of the tracking camera so I would imagine the total height is about 18mm so I think you should be ok.

I took the 10mm figure to mean the height of the entire unit.  If you look at it, the arrows cover the distance between the bottom PCB and the entire light green side of the vertical PCB.  Maybe Andy can confirm?

[Hoopz]

Order placed.  I picked up a zapper today for a couple of bucks so I'll be anxious to see how it works after the mod.

If X is against this (as he always hates new products), then I'm sure it'll be outstanding as usual.  Gotta go wait by the mailbox now....   

[TAG]

Andy, about the possible gun design for your upcoming AimTrak-based gun.... will you be having extra buttons besides the trigger?

I was wondering the same thing, since Andy mentioned earlier that the complete gun he's working on is based off of the PS1 Guncon, which had another button on the side.

[diggso]

I'm all over this. As soon as there's a complete gun kit, its mine. All of the Ultimarc products I've used are quality.

[smalltownguy]

Andy, about the possible gun design for your upcoming AimTrak-based gun.... will you be having extra buttons besides the trigger?

I was wondering the same thing, since Andy mentioned earlier that the complete gun he's working on is based off of the PS1 Guncon, which had another button on the side.

I asked Andy a similar question about the extra button inputs available on the unit. A pin header would make it a little easier to use. Here's his response:

Hi,

We can add the header. I was not sure how much demand there would be for this and it was intended for OEM applications but if DIYers are going to use it, we will add this.

Andy

[theegg]

I was also wondering about the off-screen reload and how it's handled...

I know house of the dead 1 and 2 support off screen shooting to re-load

[bungy]

Question for Andy:

I know that up to 4 AimTraks can be used at once, so how is input handled when more that on is connected?  For example, if I had two AimTracks connected, one of them is the mouse, but what would the other one be?  Are they both mouse inputs?  The reason I ask is because some 2 player games (House of the Dead) can only have one player use the mouse, the other has to use buttons or a gamepad.

[Beretta]

in windows GUI all 4 would control the same mouse pointer.

however in mame it can be setup to recognize multiple mouse and keyboards.

windows knows they are difference devices.. but since there is only one mouse pointer they all control it.

mame however does'nt have a GUI, and it'll see them all as individual devices.

[drventure]

Baretta's right. Mame really surprised me in this area.

I thought I was surely going to have hell to pay to get 2 trackballs and a spinner working at the same time, but I had literally no trouble at all.

There's 6 mice registered as active on my cab. Still not sure where all there others are coming from 

[RandyT]

Besides, it's utter nonsense that the Topguns track fast if you press the trigger and just lag when you don't. Like always, you are just making stuff up again.

I think you need to cut X a little slack (did I just write that?)  I don't know whether he's correct, but he certainly could be.  The reason you get lag is usually due to averaging routines used to reduce jitter, which in order to work, require oversampling of the mouse position, which means updating the cursor 1/Samples the time, instead of every time the read position is reported.  It may be beneficial to smooth out the jitter more when the user isn't pulling the trigger, and then focus on where the gun is actually pointing when the trigger is pulled.  Otherwise, fast movements might lag and cause the wrong icon to be clicked, etc.

As for LEDs arrangements, this is only of real importance to extrapolate the position when the gun is turned from perfectly vertical.  Since  the LED's on this product are arranged in a straight, albeit small,  line and the bar is expected to be in a fairly specific position in relation to the screen, one can still calculate angle offset.  While it may not be as easy to do as it is when the LED's form endpoints of a larger line (Wii) or a specific known pattern (TopGun), ease of computation is not an indicator of accuracy.  Accuracy is purely a function of the viability of the hardware and software combination in coming up with the correct answer, and that is unknown to anyone but Andy currently.

Personally, I have no idea how well this will work, or whether a mostly fixed shooting position will be a problem (for most, I suspect it won't be, but again, best to wait for some reviews).  But one thing I do know is that the community has been in need of a good solution to this problem for a long time, and as one who also really enjoys a good shooting game, I too am cautiously hopeful that this will fit the bill.

RandyT

[dirkomatic]

Andy,

This is awesome!  Just the other day my son asked me if I could get a shooting game for the arcade cabinet...  My answer was, "There just isn't anything that really works..."

Is there any chance you'll have the two-gun one bar option in the store soon?

Thanks!

[iAtoria]

As soon as a complete LED module w/ gun and sensor is released I will be purchasing.  My gun games are getting lonely .

[Ginsu Victim]

I opened up my SNES Justifier and was happy to find I can easily solder into the existing trigger switch and the start button will be easy to reuse as a second button. There is plenty of room in the barrel for the unit, I just need to figure out how I'm going to mount it since the inside is round. I'll probably get my AimTrak tomorrow and then the real fun begins! I love having a new project!

[syph007]

There is plenty of room in the barrel for the unit, I just need to figure out how I'm going to mount it since the inside is round.

I was thinking about this too.  My inner diameter is 3/4 inch.  I was going to pick up some 3/4 inch dowel and take a slice of that to use to make a flat mounting spot.  Then for mounting the actual pcb, I like to use double sided foam mounting tape.   I'm anxiously awaiting the package, shipped out yesterday, now I just am waiting for it to arrive in Canada!

[kronic24601]

Ok, so no one disables their mouse icon? No one has any thoughts on this? I really want to place an order here, just waiting for someone to chime in (hint hint).

[Ginsu Victim]

Here's a thought:

Re-enable it.

[kronic24601]

well, technically I haven't disabled it yet, as I am currently still setting things up. I'd really like to though. I wonder if Andy (hint) can find a way to use some other icon for people that disable theirs.

Anyway ... getting back on track.

Let's assume I don't disable it, haven't you noticed that the mouse doesn't appear at all when Mala, Hyperspin, etc... is loaded full screen? So, what now, do I have to do all my calibration on the main windows screen? Or do I have this wrong? I would say most people boot their PC into a front end program (at least that's the way it seams). Will the mouse appear in a front end program somehow? (assuming you do not disable the mouse icons).

[severdhed]

what i did is just make a custom mouse cursor..right now i have an inimated pacman ghost as my mouse cursor.  i boot my PC up and MALA is loaded as the shell, so you rarely ever see the mouse pointer at all, but when you do see it, it is just a little red ghost sitting there, which essentially hides the fact that it is a mouse cursor, but still allows you to see if if you need to use the mouse

[mytymaus007]

Will this work with my AK47

http://cloggie.org/proggold/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/ak47.jpg

[kronic24601]

what i did is just make a custom mouse cursor..right now i have an inimated pacman ghost as my mouse cursor.  i boot my PC up and MALA is loaded as the shell, so you rarely ever see the mouse pointer at all, but when you do see it, it is just a little red ghost sitting there, which essentially hides the fact that it is a mouse cursor, but still allows you to see if if you need to use the mouse

hmm, ok I'll probably try that. But (using hyperspin as I am now, this may be different) will you be able to see the mouse (even your pacman icon) while in Mala? If you need the cursor to calibrate, I thought it wouldn't be possible to see at all within Mala. (I'm assuming you replaced Mala to load in place of Windows Explorer).

Will this work with my AK47

http://cloggie.org/proggold/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/ak47.jpg

Only if it's loaded. 

[severdhed]

what i did is just make a custom mouse cursor..right now i have an inimated pacman ghost as my mouse cursor.  i boot my PC up and MALA is loaded as the shell, so you rarely ever see the mouse pointer at all, but when you do see it, it is just a little red ghost sitting there, which essentially hides the fact that it is a mouse cursor, but still allows you to see if if you need to use the mouse

hmm, ok I'll probably try that. But (using hyperspin as I am now, this may be different) will you be able to see the mouse (even your pacman icon) while in Mala? If you need the cursor to calibrate, I thought it wouldn't be possible to see at all within Mala. (I'm assuming you replaced Mala to load in place of Windows Explorer).

when in mala, i see no mouse cursor, unless i right-click to bring up the menu, then it pops up.  under normal use, i dont see the cursor at all.

[Ginsu Victim]

[But (using hyperspin as I am now, this may be different) will you be able to see the mouse (even your pacman icon) while in Mala? If you need the cursor to calibrate, I thought it wouldn't be possible to see at all within Mala.

We won't know until we get to try the AimTrak or if Andy answers. I know in Mamewah and Mame, my mouse cursor gets hidden, but I don't know if the AimTrak will bring it to the foreground for calibration.

[TheShanMan]

I'm curious about the practical implication of the requirement for the guns to be calibrated at the height they are used. My kids won't want to deal with calibration - they just want it to work (which is the biggest reason I love the U360's). So it seems that it will necessarily be poorly calibrated for somebody. But then again, I imagine they will be far less inclined to aim by looking down the barrel of the gun than I would be, so perhaps perfect calibration for them is unnecessary?

I wonder how quickly the accuracy diminishes as the gun moves away from the calibrated height?

I will be very interested to hear what some of the early adopters (or Andy for that matter) have to say about this.

[kronic24601]

I'm curious about the practical implication of the requirement for the guns to be calibrated at the height they are used. My kids won't want to deal with calibration - they just want it to work (which is the biggest reason I love the U360's). So it seems that it will necessarily be poorly calibrated for somebody. But then again, I imagine they will be far less inclined to aim by looking down the barrel of the gun than I would be, so perhaps perfect calibration for them is unnecessary?

I wonder how quickly the accuracy diminishes as the gun moves away from the calibrated height?

I will be very interested to hear what some of the early adopters (or Andy for that matter) have to say about this.

+1 ... but if that doesn't work, buy a stool 

[AndyWarne]

[But (using hyperspin as I am now, this may be different) will you be able to see the mouse (even your pacman icon) while in Mala? If you need the cursor to calibrate, I thought it wouldn't be possible to see at all within Mala.

We won't know until we get to try the AimTrak or if Andy answers. I know in Mamewah and Mame, my mouse cursor gets hidden, but I don't know if the AimTrak will bring it to the foreground for calibration.

The module has no way to control the visibility or not, of the mouse cursor. So it would need to be calibrated before any application is started which hides the cursor.
Andy

[Neverending Project]

I'll jump in the speculation arena for a moment here, since everyone seems to be throwing their two cents in.

Regarding calibration and the mouse pointer it seems to be pretty straight forward. I am guessing that you would launch the game you want to play, turn on the crosshair, initiate the calibration (15 seconds) and calibrate the gun. Then play your game. If you switch between a tall person and a short person between every game, you may need to calibrate every time you switch players. I am thinking that 15 seconds plus a few calibration shots is not too much to enjoy a well calibrated experience. You could add a button on your gun that toggles the crosshairs so it is easier to enable/disable. Bonus points to make the button a macro that first pauses MAME and then turns on the crosshairs. Triple bonus to have this button actually initiate the calibrate sequence also. And automatic win if you label the button "calibrate" on your gun(s).

I know I am trying to free up some cash to buy a couple of these. I know Andy's products speak for themselves, and I'm sure this wont be a letdown to me.

Side note: I saw this wireless USB adapter for sale at costco.com ($30). It looks a bit bulky, but I wonder if it can be tucked away inside a gun?

[Neverending Project]

So it would need to be calibrated before any application is started which hides the cursor.

Or after you launch a MAME game by turning on the crosshair.

[Ginsu Victim]

Guess I'll add a crosshair button to my gun, then.

[kronic24601]

[But (using hyperspin as I am now, this may be different) will you be able to see the mouse (even your pacman icon) while in Mala? If you need the cursor to calibrate, I thought it wouldn't be possible to see at all within Mala.

We won't know until we get to try the AimTrak or if Andy answers. I know in Mamewah and Mame, my mouse cursor gets hidden, but I don't know if the AimTrak will bring it to the foreground for calibration.

The module has no way to control the visibility or not, of the mouse cursor. So it would need to be calibrated before any application is started which hides the cursor.
Andy

umm ... This sentence sure makes it seem like you will not be able to calibrate the guns in Mame (as it hides the cursor). Perhaps this won't be a problem if you only really need to calibrate once ... but if continual calibration is required this is a pretty severe problem. In my mind (not trying to be a pessimist here) it will make the usability quite impractical if you need to exit mame (or your frontend) and load windows explorer every time.

Andy, perhaps I am reading your statement wrong. Can you confirm that this will or will not be able to calibrate within MAME itself? (or is there some way to make the mouse cursor visible in mame that I am unaware of??)

Neverending Project: are you reffering to the F1 key? I've been having problems with that ...

[Ginsu Victim]

Bringing up the crosshairs in MAME (F1) will show the cursor, so there's no need to exit MAME to calibrate.

[Beretta]

i think it'll be purdent to let some people try it out first.

perhaps the degree that height effects accuracy during use is over stated on the product page.

thats the one thing i see really pulling the product down.. people say it wont bother them to recalibrate every time the gun switches hands, i totally dont believe those statements and is probably simply excitement talking..

wait till you're in a heated game or have a few friends over..

for a single player in which calibration is'nt needed very often if at all then this probably is'nt a issue.

the rule in my house is you loose you pass the controller.. having to recalibrate every 3-5 mins is not my idea of a good time.

i guess we'll just have to wait and see how much accuracy is effected, it might be small and he just wants to put on paper so there are'nt any nasty surprises.

[Minwah]

My kids won't want to deal with calibration - they just want it to work (which is the biggest reason I love the U360's). So it seems that it will necessarily be poorly calibrated for somebody. But then again, I imagine they will be far less inclined to aim by looking down the barrel of the gun than I would be, so perhaps perfect calibration for them is unnecessary?

+1 ... but if that doesn't work, buy a stool 

Or, ban the kids...they usually have orrible sticky fingers anyway