Batman Returns: a classic example of 90s crap

[Ummon]

Burton responded, "I like Batman Returns better than the first one. There was this big backlash that it was too dark, but I found this movie much less dark."

I think Burton's idea of 'dark', and the mainstream sense of the term are different. Batman was dark in the Shakespearean, theatrical sense. Batman Returns had a lot of really 'creepy' - though very Burtonian - psycho stuff. (There were elements of the same in his version of Willy Wonka.)

Not that I was bothered by it, but it seemed stark and cheap. Wishy-washy. There was no real poetry in Batman Returns, but rather adolescent carnival-ism, with a dose of 90s-era mayhem. It didn't seem an 'adult' film.

Not to mention the story was lugubrious and tedious. There are many scenes that speak 'deleted scenes', or would've been in a higher-class movie. And there was really little if any dialogue that was memorable, let alone provocative.

Well, that's not completely so. Catwoman had some good stuff - and Pfeiffer was a good fit - but perhaps only if you were male. None of it was remarkable, just lasciviously good....or goodly lascivous.

Yet, the love story was severely lacking, and the scenes depicting it had no pizzaz, quite unlike those between Bruce Wayne and Vicki Vale in Batman. I think both the Vale character and Basinger were stronger and far more provocative entities. Hell, it was probably a really bad idea to even have a love story in the Batman Returns.

Anyways, the movie was a lemon.


Interesting statements from some (prominent) reviewers:

Roger Ebert stated "I give the movie a negative review, and yet I don't think it's a bad movie; it's more misguided, made with great creativity, but denying us what we more or less deserve from a Batman story. No matter how hard you try, superheroes and film noir don't go together; the very essence of noir is that there are no more heroes."


Jonathan Rosenbaum called DeVito "a pale substitute for Jack Nicholson from the first film" and felt "there's no suspense in Batman Returns whatsoever".[34] Batman comic book writer/artist Matt Wagner quoted, "I hated how Batman Returns made Batman little more than just another costumed creep, little better than the villains he’s pursuing. Additionally, Burton is so blatantly not an action director. That aspect of both his films just sucked."

[leapinlew]

lugubrious

Worse use of a thesaurus ever.

[ChadTower]

Ironically, we just watched this movie for outdoor movie night a couple of weeks ago (preceded by Batman) and a good time was had by all.  The kids are now begging to do it again with Batman Forever.  I'm not sure how to break it to them that the series is about to get on a mountain toboggan and head downhill at 75mph.

[Malenko]

yeah cause Batman Forever and Batman & Robin were so much better.

[Ginsu Victim]

I've never been big on Batman (1989). I watched it again recently and it's just slow and boring (and Jack is a terrible Joker -- I thought so before Heath Ledger ever had the role. It's "Jack as Joker" not "The Joker").

Batman Returns was better. At least it's watchable. Still, it has its problems. One definite positive is Elfman's score for this -- it's his second best, IMO, just under Beetlejuice. (Ooo, wait....maybe it's his third best.....forgot about Edward Scissorhands)

[garnerb350]

I've never been big on Batman (1989). I watched it again recently and it's just slow and boring (and Jack is a terrible Joker -- I thought so before Heath Ledger ever had the role. It's "Jack as Joker" not "The Joker").

Batman Returns was better. At least it's watchable. Still, it has its problems. One definite positive is Elfman's score for this -- it's his second best, IMO, just under Beetlejuice. (Ooo, wait....maybe it's his third best.....forgot about Edward Scissorhands)

Dont forget Christopher Walken!!!!

[Ginsu Victim]

I didn't, I just wasn't going into anything more than the score.

Walken makes everything better. Even if a movie is terrible, at least his scenes are good.

[CCM]

After seeing Batman Begins and the Dark Knight, I promptly forgot that any Batman movies existed before them.

[Ginsu Victim]

I don't blame you.

[SirPeale]

I didn't, I just wasn't going into anything more than the score.

Walken makes everything better. Even if a movie is terrible, at least his scenes are good.

"Bruce...why are you wearing a Batman costume?"

[Ummon]

lugubrious

Worse use of a thesaurus ever.

You mean worst. Right? Did you know that 'lugubre' is an articulation notated in, that is written in often at the beginning of, musical scores?

Oh, I knew someone would say Walken. Window dressing, which is why many were distracted with it.

[Ginsu Victim]

I'm sure that's what Burton thought. "Yeah, I'll cast Walken in this to distract people from this turd"

[Ummon]

I'm sure that's what Burton thought. "Yeah, I'll cast Walken in this to distract people from this turd"

That's a very curious interpretation.

[Level42]

Do I dare to admit here that I have not ever seen one Batman movie ?


Ever !

[RayB]

It's kind of silly to look back and diss Burton's Batman, without considering the impact it had THEN for that time period, the technology of the time and the crap that was 80's movies.  When it was known someone was making a movie about BATMAN, everyone had in mind "kids' movie", "cheesy tv show", "goofy looking heroes with no super powers", etc. Public opinion was stacked against him. The movie ended up blowing everybody's expectations away.

Today, sure... it's easy to see its flaws, but most old movies look flawed in some way.

[Ginsu Victim]

Meh....I remember thinking Batman was a slow, boring movie back when it came out, but I respected it for at least not being a kids movie.

[Ummon]

Do I dare to admit here that I have not ever seen one Batman movie ?


Ever !

Euro+american movie - don't necessarily compute.

It's kind of silly to look back and diss Burton's Batman, without considering the impact it had THEN for that time period, the technology of the time and the crap that was 80's movies.  When it was known someone was making a movie about BATMAN, everyone had in mind "kids' movie", "cheesy tv show", "goofy looking heroes with no super powers", etc. Public opinion was stacked against him. The movie ended up blowing everybody's expectations away.

Today, sure... it's easy to see its flaws, but most old movies look flawed in some way.

I think A LOT of 80s movies still hold their own, graphics-wise. In that way, people today are too used to things that are actually quite PHYSICally unrealistic, let alone sensational. And they're too used to play-doh colors. Even the 128 color crayon box is pretty limited.

Meh....I remember thinking Batman was a slow, boring movie back when it came out, but I respected it for at least not being a kids movie.

Well, it might bring to bear the question of whether you appreciate literature-level stories. ?

[Ginsu Victim]

Well, it might bring to bear the question of whether you appreciate literature-level stories. ?

Love 'em. I can watch the slowest, most boring crap ever made if it's done well. Batman just didn't do it for me.

Sorry that I will never reach your level of pretentiousness, though. You really are a snob 90% of the time.

[Ummon]

Oh, maybe more. However, again, my question wasn't a presumption, so again interesting your interpretation.

[Ummon]

I sorta forgot to mention this: essentially, Batman Returns was im-possible. Why? Because the runt that became the Penguin never would've lived. And if he somehow had survived, he would never've learned to speak, perhaps even think much. I mean, where the ---fudgesicle--- did he learn anything??  And, on the technical side, how the ---fudgesicle--- did he get hold of Batman ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- schematics?? ?? ??  RunDMC comes to mind:  ....dumb...dumb-dumb dumb-dumb.

[RayB]

I would recommend you stay away from superhero movies entirely. They are all im-possible.

[saint]

I sorta forgot to mention this: essentially, Batman Returns was im-possible. Why? Because the runt that became the Penguin never would've lived. And if he somehow had survived, he would never've learned to speak, perhaps even think much. I mean, where the ---fudgesicle--- did he learn anything??  And, on the technical side, how the ---fudgesicle--- did he get hold of Batman ---Cleveland steamer--- schematics?? ?? ??  RunDMC comes to mind:  ....dumb...dumb-dumb dumb-dumb.

And stop giving the autocensor a workout please. kthkxbai.

[shardian]

I think A LOT of 80s movies still hold their own, graphics-wise. In that way, people today are too used to things that are actually quite PHYSICally unrealistic, let alone sensational. And they're too used to play-doh colors. Even the 128 color crayon box is pretty limited.

Yes, many 80's movies more than hold their own. It is the most fascinating aspect of recently going on an 80's movies binge. More than half that we watched have aged very well.

[Malenko]

I sorta forgot to mention this: essentially, Batman Returns was im-possible. Why? Because the runt that became the Penguin never would've lived. And if he somehow had survived, he would never've learned to speak, perhaps even think much. I mean, where the ---fudgesicle--- did he learn anything??  And, on the technical side, how the ---fudgesicle--- did he get hold of Batman ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- schematics?? ?? ??  RunDMC comes to mind:  ....dumb...dumb-dumb dumb-dumb.

so a movie about a comic book has to be realistic?

its called suspension of belief you should try it sometime shorthair Ummon

EDIT:typo that would have caused the world to stop spinning, so I fixed it 

[RayB]

its called suspension of believe you should try it sometime shorthair Ummon

disbelief

[Epyx]

I would recommend you stay away from superhero movies entirely. They are all im-possible.

Conan the Barbarian (1st movie) is still one of the best comic adaptions to hit the screen...before you protest...Arnie's conan was clearly inspired by John Buscema's and Ernesto Chan's interpretation of Conan and not the pulp literature.

Awesome musical score, great quotes and kick ass pacing...it can be done right.../nuff said

"Wrong! Conan what is greatest in life?"

"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you and to hear the lamentation of the women!"

[Ginsu Victim]

[Epyx]

 

[Ummon]

I sorta forgot to mention this: essentially, Batman Returns was im-possible. Why? Because the runt that became the Penguin never would've lived. And if he somehow had survived, he would never've learned to speak, perhaps even think much. I mean, where the ---fudgesicle--- did he learn anything??  And, on the technical side, how the ---fudgesicle--- did he get hold of Batman ---Cleveland steamer--- schematics?? ?? ??  RunDMC comes to mind:  ....dumb...dumb-dumb dumb-dumb.

And stop giving the autocensor a workout please. kthkxbai.

.......Um, I wasn't trying to work it out. I actually thought it was pretty funny you hadn't programmed something for that word. But using it was just a natural occurence.

Yes, many 80's movies more than hold their own. It is the most fascinating aspect of recently going on an 80's movies binge. More than half that we watched have aged very well.

But not Tron, right?  Heheheheh, just had ta bust yer balls a little. But, yeah, I agree.


Epyx (and especially Malenko) : I wasn't a Conan collector. I mostly collected regular Marvel, but not Avengers or anything that was really sensational, power-wise....although, admitttedly, mutants are pretty sensational. At least they tried to somewhat explain things, genetically. Of course, from a physics persepctive, there's a whole nother ball of curdled wax. But at least try to give it some kind of physics. Could be otherworld physics, but not just, 'hey, I thought o this, check it OUT!'

Anyways, yeah, I liked Conan the movie, too. Music was decent. Poledouris wasn't quite as compositionally skilled back then.

[Epyx]

Well if you ever do get some Conan comics (downloaded or otherwise). I highly recommend issue 50-150...those were the best of the Marvel Conan, consisting of the best Conan artists (Buscema/Chan) and storylines. But the gem of Conan is probably "The Savage Sword" black and white series of more adult stories.

[slasherman]

Batman (1989), it's not terrible but it is boring and it has a terrible soundtrack by Prince
   
Batman Returns (1992), this was boring cant remember seeing the whole movie without falling to sleep

Batman Forever (1995), I actually enjoyed this more cartoonist feel to it without feeling quasi like the Burton movies often do. Strong performances by Tommy Lee Jones and Jim Carrey

Batman & Robin (1997), terrible and boring even with Schwarzenegger

Batman Begins (2005), probably the best Batman movie to date even if I enjoyed Batman Forever as much

The Dark Knight (2008), not for my taste too much crime/drama, where is the superhero element ?

[Ginsu Victim]

The Dark Knight (2008), not for my taste too much crime/drama, where is the superhero element ?

Batman is a detective and a crimefighter, not a superhero.

[slasherman]

The Dark Knight (2008), not for my taste too much crime/drama, where is the superhero element ?

Batman is a detective and a crimefighter, not a superhero.

I know he is not a superhero in the the sense of superpowers, still Batman is extraordinary and it is based on a cartoon.

[Ginsu Victim]

I know he is not a superhero in the the sense of superpowers, still Batman is extraordinary and it is based on a comic.

Fixed.

[HaRuMaN]

I know he is not a superhero in the the sense of superpowers, still Batman is extraordinary and it is based on a comic.

Fixed.

Wow.  Kids today.   

[Ginsu Victim]

The Dark Knight (2008), not for my taste too much crime/drama, where is the superhero element ?

Another thing to keep in mind:

Before Batman Begins, Christopher Nolan made the crew watch Blade Runner, but before principle photography began on Dark Knight, he made them watch Heat.

[Ginsu Victim]

Is this the last surviving Ummon thread?

Huh? I know he said he's done with the hobby supposedly, but he's still posting fairly regular.

[Ummon]

I'm workin on it. Haven't sold all my stuff yet. I do post less.