NPs Star Wars

[RetroACTIVE]

I was hoping my next post would be after it's all assembled and I had played a few games.

Well, it is! I did all of the upgrades, re-flowed the solder on all the header pins, replaces the chassis caps and got it all back together. I put the monitor back in and fired it up. That 4 or 5 seconds before the screen comes on seemed like an eternity, but there it was - my working Star Wars.

The top of the screen was very dim, and it seemed to be missing some colors. I was a little worried, but a simple twist of the brightness dial and all was wonderful.

I still have to do some adjustments on the monitor and rebuild the yoke (already have the kit), but it is just as fun as I remember, I was so happy that I took the rest of the night off to relax and enjoy a cocktail, and perhaps even play a few more games. 

That's great news!  A happy ending to one of the many Star Wars sagas in this restorations forum. 

[Level42]

That 4 or 5 seconds before the screen comes on seemed like an eternity, but there it was - my working Star Wars.

Heh , man, do I know that feeling !   

[Neverending Project]

Thank you. My 4-year-old was excited too. Every day he would ask, "Did you get the Star Wars working yet? Can I play it?"

What do you recommend for a replacement cabinet cooling fan? The existing fan is NOISY, and I am not a computer builder, so I know next to nothing about what is readily available. I am thinking about bringing it in to FRY's to find a fan of the same size - do they even make 120VAC fans, or they all 12VDC?

[ChadTower]

do they even make 120VAC fans, or they all 12VDC?

They sell them by the millions whenever summer rolls around.  People put them in their windows.   

[Level42]

Ha-ha-ha, you keep being funny Chad.....

NP, how noisy is it ? You can't expect a 120VAC fan to be as quite as a 12V fan because it's pushing around loads more of air. I do suggest to replace it though. After so much time and running hours, a new fan will run quieter and very important reliable. There is no monitoring of the fan so if it dies you won't know unless you check it regularly and things will heat up nicely without it.

And while you're ordering a replacement fan (NOT 12V, they are not powerful enough and also would load the 12V supply a lot, making even more heat to deal with) get (at least) one more to cool the monitor chassis. Not really sure what to cool on the WG6100. I guess the best idea is to mount one over the HV board to draw air up from it. The transistors on the WG have really big cooling area's (the frame) so I guess the natural flow of both fans will be sufficient for that. Be sure to aim all airflow upwards (there are arrows indicating that on the fans).

Mind you, mains AC fans are not really cheap. Wire the extra fan parallel to the old one and isolate really well of course !

The best brand in fans is Papst. http://www.papst.us/

The original looks like a very good quality too and the manufacturer still exists and makes the same model still, but I forget the name of the manufacturer.

Whatever you do, look at the label of the original fan and get a new one with the same (or higher) CFM. For the monitor you could choose a somewhat less powerfull equivalent, but I would go with the same physical size. The larger the fan, the quieter it runs.

[ChadTower]

You can't expect a 120VAC fan to be as quite as a 12V fan because it's pushing around loads more of air.

Depends on the old fan.  If it's noisy because it's filthy, or because the mech is worn out, it could be making quite a bit more noise than a new larger fan would make. 

[Level42]

It's all depending. Maker, type of bearing, fan blades.....there's no general rules really, but I meant that generaly a 120VAC powered fan that is new and has the same size as a comparable 12VDC fan is noisier because it's more powerful.

[ChadTower]

It's all depending. Maker, type of bearing, fan blades.....there's no general rules really, but I meant that generaly a 120VAC powered fan that is new and has the same size as a comparable 12VDC fan is noisier because it's more powerful.

Can't argue that... but his fan is 25 years old and ran in a filthy environment for a lot of that time.  I agree with you that he should just swap it.  Any replaceable part like that, if you have any question, just swap it.  No sense in doing all this work and cheaping on a $15 part.

[Level42]

As I said, they are not cheap and certainly not 15 bucks.

Since my cockpit is in "service" right now anyway I just removed the fan to have a look.

This is the fan in my machine, I know for sure that it's original because it's dated 6-3-1983:

Rotron Whisper Model nr. WR2M1
50/60Hz 115VAC 6,8W

Strangely no CFM indication.

But the amazing thing is that it's still in production. The company is now Comair Rotron and here it is:
http://www.comairrotron.com/cgi-bin/acfandatasht.pl?Pnum=028291&airflow_unit=CFM&pressure_unit=inh2o&diameter_unit=in

Amazingly it's a sleeve bearing fan. Ball bearing fans are known to be more silent and reliable so it might be better to find a ball bearing equivalent.

[Level42]

Uhhhhh, that is, not sure it's still in production, just found this:

http://www.rselectronics.com/SEO/Comair_Rotron_Fans.aspx?FQL=Y


Weird that their site is still fully functional then......maybe they did a re-start ?

[Edit] Mmmmmm, looks like they were bought by a Chinese company as their headquarters are now in China:
http://www.comairrotron.com/contact_info.shtml

Which makes me want to look for a Papst equivalent really.......Best known brand.

[ChadTower]

Mouser shows a whole lot of fans in the $15-30 price range that fit that rough description.  Hard to tell if they are exact matches since there are no pics for a lot of them. 

[Level42]

If you believe that's the same quality then please buy those.

[ChadTower]

If you believe that's the same quality then please buy those.

Well that's the point, isn't it?  You're not building a life support system.  I'd rather put two of those than spend $100 on a single industrial fan.  At least then you've got some redundancy.  Some things are worth a ton of extra cash - some just don't need top end live longer than you will units.

[Level42]

Then again, burning hard-to-get parts in a precious SW cab is not what we want either.

We need fan monitoring and auto-shut-down when it fails

The Rotron has a metal frame but plastic impeller. It's also sleeve bearing and I always understood those should not be mounted horizontally (which it is in a SW). So it's not top-of-the bill, but it looks like a sturdy build.  I just don't have a warm feeling for those no-name chinese things. At least get a Sunon which is relatively cheap but OK in quality.

[ChadTower]

Hell for $100 you can probably rig up a dedicated air conditioner for the thing.   

[Level42]

How about one of these on the top of the cabinet ? 

http://www.ebmpapst.us/allpdfs/QLZ06AC%2EPDF

[ChadTower]

I know a guy that for $20/night and a six pack will stand there with his hand on the cage and yell when it burns.

[Level42]

Gee Chad, I know economy is bad, but I didn't think you were that cheap. Can't do the six pack though, no drinking on the job 

[sean-o-mac]

"With the blast shield down, I can't even see, how am I supposed to fight?" 

   Nice!

[Level42]

I dropped a mail yesterday to the european sales e-mail adress of Comair Rotron and got this reply:

In October 2008, W.E.T. Automotive purchased the Comair Rotron-Shanghai facility along with the Comair Rotron name, trademarks, and patens.  In December of 2008, Comair Rotron manufacturing in Mexico was discontinued.

I am sorry to advise that Comair Rotron-Shanghai cannot manufacture or supply the part or parts that you have requested.  You might try Orion, www.orionfans.com

They have a "conversion table" and they suggest model OA109AP-11-2TB  from Orion as a replacement, but then, any comparable fan will probably do as well.

Found this one from Sunon:
Sunon SP103A/1123LBL.GN

RS online sells them at only €10 each (excl. tax) and they even are ball bearing.

[Level42]

One more thing about fans before I rest about it:

Obviously, when running on 50 Hz (f.i. Europe) these fans push around less air then running at 60 Hz like in the US.

Just something to keep in mind. I'm sure Atari thought about that when they designed the cab...........

This also may explain that they run somewhat quieter over here....

[RayB]

Ironically, it's a ball bearing going bad (ie: mishapen, scratched, rusted, etc) that causes a hell of a lot of noise in a fan. So I guess they are only quiet until a bearing gets damaged.

[Neverending Project]

Thanks for all the fan info.

And here I was thinking I could simply run out to Radio Shack or Fry's and get a replacement. I am of the "buy inexpensive and replace if necessary" camp for something as mundane as a fan. I do know it needs to be properly rated to do its job, but as long as it gets the job done I can't see how it will effect the gameplay in any other way.

[Level42]

Hey I got carried away a bit
And some spare time at work......

As long as the CFM is the same or higher, you should be fine.

[ChadTower]

Thanks for all the fan info.

And here I was thinking I could simply run out to Radio Shack or Fry's and get a replacement. I am of the "buy inexpensive and replace if necessary" camp for something as mundane as a fan. I do know it needs to be properly rated to do its job, but as long as it gets the job done I can't see how it will effect the gameplay in any other way.

Well that's the issue... if the fan fails it increases the likelihood the game does.  So it's a tradeoff.  This isn't a cut and dry "the fan is cheap just swap in another" item.

[RayB]

Keep in mind, the fan was added to the machines later. They originally didn't come with them, but it was discovered the games ran too hot and so Atari recommended the addition. I don't know how many would have left the factory without them.

So for home use, you might get away with less powerful fans.

I struck out what I wrote above because I was trying to find a citation, but the one I found related to the HV monitor board. Could be what I was thinking of, mistaken for the main pcb fan...

http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_VAtari3.html

[Level42]

I'm 100% positive that the fan on the game board set is factory on all machine, I've seen them on US cockpit and upright and my Irish cockpit.
Also the fan is drawn in the manuals and listed in the parts list (like the fan bracket and fan guard).

Any extra (monitor related) fans are not factory, but strongly advised !

[Neverending Project]

I got some more info from David Adams from RAM controls about the original specification. He may even offer affordable (good quality) replacement fans before long too. Here is what he said (quoted with his permission):

Atari originally used a cheap sleeve bearing fan from several different suppliers.  One of which was Rotron which, up until relatively recently, was still in business.  Generally, ball bearing fans are much more quiet until they eventually fail at which time they become excessively noisy.  Anyhow, the original specification was for a 66CFM, 33dBa, 1900RPM fan which ran at 115VAC/60Hz.  I've found MANY fans which match these specs, the only one I'm having trouble with is the physical size and hole placement.  I'm still waiting on evaluation samples to arrive from three different sources.  I plan to make the fan available as soon as I choose one.  If I purchase a couple thousand of them, I can get the price low enough for everyone to get a quality fan for less.

[RetroACTIVE]

I got some more info from David Adams from RAM controls about the original specification. He may even offer affordable (good quality) replacement fans before long too. Here is what he said (quoted with his permission):

Atari originally used a cheap sleeve bearing fan from several different suppliers.  One of which was Rotron which, up until relatively recently, was still in business.  Generally, ball bearing fans are much more quiet until they eventually fail at which time they become excessively noisy.  Anyhow, the original specification was for a 66CFM, 33dBa, 1900RPM fan which ran at 115VAC/60Hz.  I've found MANY fans which match these specs, the only one I'm having trouble with is the physical size and hole placement.  I'm still waiting on evaluation samples to arrive from three different sources.  I plan to make the fan available as soon as I choose one.  If I purchase a couple thousand of them, I can get the price low enough for everyone to get a quality fan for less.

Dave kicks ass! He is such an unbelieveable asset to this hobby!

[Level42]

Mmm, yeah but comparable fans are available everywhere...

One more thing, while doing my "fan" research I read on Wikipedia that sleeve bearing fans "may perform poorly when mounted in any orientation other than vertical." We all know how it's mounted.......horizontal.

[ChadTower]

Who are these couple thousand Star Wars owners who need new fans?   

He may move 50 if he waits long enough, I would think. 

[Daviea]

Hey Chad,

If I've proven anything at all, it's that I am a big believer in overkill. :-)  Well, that and I take too long on some of my projects.**cough**SW YOKE**cough**...but that's been covered in many other threads.  haha

I generally place vendor orders with many zeros in them so I can get my per unit pricing down.  Sure, I have to drop down a wad of cash, but I can justify it in knowing that the price I pass onto customers will be much lower.  Lower cost enables me me to sell more quantity.  In the case of the fans, Atari used a similar fan in many different machines, so I have a much larger client base.  Instead of 50 potential sales, I might have 70 or 80.  LOL

David Adams
RAM Controls

Who are these couple thousand Star Wars owners who need new fans?   

He may move 50 if he waits long enough, I would think. 

[ChadTower]

Hey Chad,

If I've proven anything at all, it's that I am a big believer in overkill. :-) 

I believe this of you, my friend.  I believe it.   

[RayB]

not to mention you dont get any reasonable discount on small orders. 1000 units could mean $10 each wholesale, whereas buying 50 might mean $40 or $50 each wholesale.

[Neverending Project]

I finally was able to rebuild the controller this weekend using the parts from the Ram-Controls rebuild kit. I went ahead and replaced all parts included in the kit except for the large gear in the front-back section of the controller. I didn't want to take the handle assembly all the way out. But both pots were in need of replacing, and only one of the three buttons was working. The smaller gear in the handle assembly was cracked too.

I got everything together and reassembled only to find two problems. First, I swapped the left and right thumb/trigger connections. Well, to be credit I hooked them up the way they were connected before, but they must have been backwards when i got it. It doesn't affect gameplay at all, but I will switch them... just because. The second problem was that the spacer bearing on the steering shaft is missing. I didn't lose it, it was just missing.

I didn't notice it before because the old bumpers were completely disintegrated. When I put on the new bumpers they actually cause rub on the steering assembly, making it very difficult to turn. So it is back to Dave to the rescue. I just don't want to take it all apart again, but I will.

I still want to rebuild the AR/II board even though it is working correctly. I have the rebuilt kit, and the caps must be close to wearing out anyway. I also picked up a Big Blue at the same time that I will go ahead and replace.

Almost there... stay on target.

[Neverending Project]

Does anyone have the dimensions of the spacer bearing? David has used all his stock for the yoke orders (good news to the dirty dozen), and my game is basically unplayable until I get a spacer in there. I was thinking of crafting something temporary out of PVC pipe until David has a chance to make another run.

[Level42]

If you have a bit of patience I can measure the one on my yoke. I'm currently disassembling it, or should I say _was_ disassembling it.

There I was, all prepared. I had my set of "weird-security type of bits" ready, like my freshly aquired imperial hex-set ready, so I was all set to disassemble the whole thing.

Eveything went well until I had to remove the spring pin. I needed a 9/64 th hex for that. WTF ? Not in my set ! I tried a couple of the bits instead and one was really tight. Had to use my battery drill but it came loose fine.

Then next, to remove the big gear the manual says I need a 7/64 hex. W_T_F ?!?!?! How many of those xxxth/yyyyth hex kinda things are there in the imperial system anyway ?? Of course this wasn't in my set either ! Tried something else, but I was wearing it out a bit so I stopped right away, will have to get the right hex tools......geez....

In metric it is _so_ simple. You have either 3, 4, 5 etc. and in between you have halves AND THAT'S IT....

Sigh....

Anyway, as soon as I get further I will measure it fot you  !

[Neverending Project]

Then next, to remove the big gear the manual says I need a 7/64 hex. W_T_F ?!?!?! How many of those xxxth/yyyyth hex kinda things are there in the imperial system anyway ?? Of course this wasn't in my set either ! Tried something else, but I was wearing it out a bit so I stopped right away, will have to get the right hex tools......geez....

In metric it is _so_ simple. You have either 3, 4, 5 etc. and in between you have halves AND THAT'S IT....

Sigh....

Anyway, as soon as I get further I will measure it fot you  !

Well, they don't go finer than 1/64th of an inch, so technically I suppose there would be no more than 63 sizes in between every inch. 

(personally I hate the imperial units, but what are ya gonna do?)

Thanks, whenever you get a chance. I basically need the thickness and hole diameter (which is approx. the same as the shaft). You can even give it to me in metric units, if you wish. 

[Daviea]

Hope this helps...

Pay attention to the "inside" of the spacer bearing - it needs enough clearance for the flange of the bronze bearing.

David Adams
RAM Controls

P.S.  I'm using all of *my* spacer bearings for the assembled yoke controllers.  I didn't make any spares above and beyond the first 1000 units.  I'll be making some more very soon.

Does anyone have the dimensions of the spacer bearing? David has used all his stock for the yoke orders (good news to the dirty dozen), and my game is basically unplayable until I get a spacer in there. I was thinking of crafting something temporary out of PVC pipe until David has a chance to make another run.

[Neverending Project]

A small update for this one... I rebuilt the A/R II board the other night, since I already had the kit. When I pulled the board and examined it, it was in excellent condition and the solder on the back was actually still shiny. I decided to only replace the electrolytic caps, instead of replacing the transistors as well. After all, the power all tested fine anyway, I was just performing some preventative maintenance on it.

All went well except for one of the larger caps which I inadvertantly installed backwards. I had a weird suspicion about it too... I always double-check the orientation before I pull the old cap, and then I only install one at a time checking them off as I go. In this case I pulled two since they were right next to each other, and they were the same size and all. Well after I pulled them, I forgot which way they went (even though I double checked before pulling them), and the "+" sign on the PCB was ambiguous. So i did my best at matching the new ones with the old ones, even going as far as holding the old ones back on the board and comparing dust "traces".

I was wrong. It turned out they were installed in opposite directions, even though they were right next to each other. I had already re-installed the baord and began testing the game before I realized this. I pulled the board, fixed the cap (I turned it around since there were no signs of failure and it tested good on my DMM) and re-installed. The game still didn't work... Drat.

A little stress and googling later, I found that it had blown two 4-Amp slo-blow fuses in the power supply. to my luck I had exactly two 4-Amp slo-blow fuses left in my reserves. I replaced them, powered it up, and all was good. Phew.

Oh, and I replaced the Big Blue too (with a Big Black). I am stalling on the temporary yoke spacer bearing because David said he will be making some more very soon. I am considering slipping a piece of paper or something in there in the meantime to prevent the bumpers from sticking, so I don't have to pull the yoke apart two more times.