Would you PAY for new games for your MAME cabinet?

[RayB]

Part of my livelihood is making small games and in the back of my mind I keep thinking about how cool it would be to make games that worked with arcade controls rather than crappy PC keyboard and mouse. (How many of you have wished Zuma or TumbleBugs had spinner support?)

The thing is, coding up a game just for my own cabinet is quite a chunk of time with no reward other than playing my own game (and possibly releasing a version that works with PC controls).

I was wondering if any of you would ever consider PAYING for some new games that were made for use in a MAME cabinet? or given how much in this hobby is "free", would you expect such new games to be free?

To help answer the poll above, this is what I'm proposing:

 - Early 80's style arcade gameplay
 - Could have retro graphics, but I'm more keen on delivering early 90's console style graphics
 - Emphasis on games that make use of arcade controls. (Spinner, trackball, 2 joysticks, etc)

Some examples:

- Spinner games
- Centipede clone with nice graphics and trackball support
- Joystick + spinner game
- 2-joystick game

We're talking small scale games, not big full-blown productions like Street Fighter IV (wink to Todd H )

[javeryh]

It depends on the game.  I never have a problem paying a fair price for something good that I want.  More than being able to just run it on my cab, I'd want there to be a way to integrate it into my front end game list.

[Todd H]

I have no problem paying. I'll be buying Street Fighter IV PC the day it comes out.

[Epyx]

Agreed, depends on the game. Guys like Jeff Minter have always injected the 80s atmosphere into their games to this day. And while Raiden III it is an excellent example of a game that captures the spirit of the original and modernizes it...

Hamsterball is another great example and their are dozens more...when done right they are stunning.

[jukingeo]

Agreed, depends on the game. Guys like Jeff Minter have always injected the 80s atmosphere into their games to this day. And while Raiden III it is an excellent example of a game that captures the spirit of the original and modernizes it...

Hamsterball is another great example and their are dozens more...when done right they are stunning.

Hamsterball is GREAT!  I bought it and many others from the Real Arcade site.  I always thought a game like Hamsterball would be great for the arcades.   I envisioned a controller very similar to the large trackball used for Hyperbowl.  That would really make the game challenging.

[saint]

Part of my livelihood is making small games and in the back of my mind I keep thinking about how cool it would be to make games that worked with arcade controls rather than crappy PC keyboard and mouse. (How many of you have wished Zuma or TumbleBugs had spinner support?)

The thing is, coding up a game just for my own cabinet is quite a chunk of time with no reward other than playing my own game (and possibly releasing a version that works with PC controls).

I was wondering if any of you would ever consider PAYING for some new games that were made for use in a MAME cabinet? or given how much in this hobby is "free", would you expect such new games to be free?

To help answer the poll above, this is what I'm proposing:

 - Early 80's style arcade gameplay
 - Could have retro graphics, but I'm more keen on delivering early 90's console style graphics
 - Emphasis on games that make use of arcade controls. (Spinner, trackball, 2 joysticks, etc)

Some examples:

- Spinner games
- Centipede clone with nice graphics and trackball support
- Joystick + spinner game
- 2-joystick game

We're talking small scale games, not big full-blown productions like Street Fighter IV (wink to Todd H )

I would, and in fact have.

Hamsterball
That claymation style space shooter, Platypus?
Best Friends (retro64.com, kids love it)
Jazz Jackrabbit series
many others.

--- saint

[Visitor Q]

I have no problem paying. I'll be buying Street Fighter IV PC the day it comes out.

High Five on that! 

[BASS!]

Now here is the million dollar question. How much would you pay to use the full mame 128 romset?

[wbassett]

I also said it depends on the game.

As far as the entire rom set?  Yeah I'd pay for a set of tested and working games.  The problem I see is there are many different companies.  I could see a romset from say Midway, or Atari...  the problem with an all inclusive set is how to split up the royalties between all the companies?  They'd have to agree and I doubt they would.

I do have a disc of arcade classics, and I'm sure everyone has seen those bargain game discs at places like Walmart for under $20 that boast thousands of games.  I guess what I am saying is seeing these are old games it would be a small niche market, but I have no problem throwing some bones to the companies that developed or now own the games.  Since I own a disc with Atari games and also one with Midway classics, I don't feel I cheated anyone by playing them.   And don't forget you can buy some of the classics for the game consoles out there for around $10.

I certainly don't want to belittle any company that owns or developed these games, but they would have to keep the price reasonable or else it would invite people to 'do to the dark side'.  Hey though... any profit is better than none though right?

I guess for a full set of tested and working games including CHDs I'd pay $100 easy seeing we're talking over 6000 games (but a lot are pretty crappy knockoffs in my opinion too).  But I still think most people would feel $100 is a bit much and there lay the problem.  I seriously doubt the owners want to give things away, but then again we are talking about some games that are twenty years old.  Value and what someone is willing to pay depends on how bad a perticular person wants something.

Now for newer games.... if they use a keyboard can't they be mapped to MAME anyway?  I know Disney's Jungle Pinball can be mapped, and there is another thread devoted to games that work well on a cab with arcade controls.  For those that require special keys or more than a standard cp would have, there is always the MFP (Multi Function Panel) fropm CH Products.  http://www.chproducts.com/retail/mfp.html

I will someday build a sit down racing cab and I have ideas about a flight cockpit sit down cab that incorporates the CH MFP (but realistically those are probably a year or more down the road for me)  I do like the idea though of incorporating some of the MSN style games into my existing cab that my wife loves to play!  The only problem with that is unless I build her a cab of her own I'll never get to use mine!  Jungle Pinball was the reason she got her own computer in the first place!

[angryred]

Typhoon 2001 ( http://typhoon.kuto.de/  ) is an awesome and very faithful clone of Tempest 2000-- and playing Tempest 2000 with a spinner is INSANE.  I've been playing almost nothing but T2K for a few weeks now...

[Paul Olson]

I don't have anything against paying, but I doubt if I actually would unless it was something really unique. I don't have time to play very many of the games I already have access to. I would like a legal license to the games in MAME, and I would pay $100 without hesitation. I own a few dedicated cabs and a couple other boards, but I really don't want a garage full of boards to have legal licenses. I am looking into game development at school, so I am really interested to see if you can make money at something like this.

[Blanka]

Yeah, they really should make those 66 in 1 PCB and other classic sets available for MAME use. I'd pay 1-2$/game no problem if the license is right and it has real roms, no crappy front-ends. Now only Taito has something that works with MAME.

[RayB]

I am really interested to see if you can make money at something like this.

I would never expect to make money with such a small niche market, but I would hope to break even.

[Malenko]

it would depend on the game, I'd help with the art, for free =)

[CheffoJeffo]

Yeah, they really should make those 66 in 1 PCB and other classic sets available for MAME use. I'd pay 1-2$/game no problem if the license is right and it has real roms, no crappy front-ends. Now only Taito has something that works with MAME.

OK ... except that the 60-in-1s are *already* MAME and *are* actual ROMs.

 

[CheffoJeffo]

I answered up to $20, which comes with the obvious "depends on the game" caveat. Jazz JackRabbit, Monster Bash and the original Duke Nukems are all played (and properly licensed) on my 3-sided cocktail.

For those who say they would pay $100 for a full set of ROMs supported by MAME -- so would I (or any of us), but that isn't coming close to what the license holders want for legal licenses.

As much as folks may not like David R. Foley (obligatory reference for Googling ... maybe he will chime in -- his input would be valuable here), he did something that nobody else has and is, IMPO, the leader in getting games licensed for use in emulators (I may not like him, but I have to respect what he has done). Have a quick look at what the game packs for Ultracade, etc cost and you will get a handle on what it would cost for actual licenses. I really would have liked for his iROMs initiative to succeed.

I haven't even mentioned StarROMs. Other than saint and a few of the other old folks, did anybody buy licenses from them ?

In a day and age where people, including a particular MAMEDev, are all-too-happy to copy and distribute ROMs for new releases (cou*D2K*gh), I can't see any reason that a developer would want to put out a game in this niche.

If RayB does develop something, I will buy it, but his time is likely better spent getting that cocktail ready for sale ...

 

[Paul Olson]

The ultracade roms were licensed for commercial use, and to generate a profit to ultracade. We are not asking for that; we just want to play them at home. I would expect the licenses to be much cheaper. I can buy a non-working board on ebay dirt cheap, which would give me commercial rights. Personal use would have to be cheap. It is a kinda weird discussion; we are trying to figure out ways to pay for something we all already have.

I would suggest writing games for the broader PC and console market, and make them cab friendly. Phone friendly would be great as well. Playing ms pacman on my tilt is a pain. If you can get a version of your game to run on most types of hardware, you might be able to make money on the effort. If not, the experience gained would be worth the effort, I think.

[CheffoJeffo]

The ultracade roms were licensed for commercial use, and to generate a profit to ultracade. We are not asking for that; we just want to play them at home. I would expect the licenses to be much cheaper. I can buy a non-working board on ebay dirt cheap, which would give me commercial rights. Personal use would have to be cheap. It is a kinda weird discussion; we are trying to figure out ways to pay for something we all already have.

No argument with any of that ... but Ultracade also had licenses for home use only, so perhaps I should have said "Arcade Legends".

 

[CheffoJeffo]

I would suggest writing games for the broader PC and console market, and make them cab friendly. Phone friendly would be great as well. Playing ms pacman on my tilt is a pain. If you can get a version of your game to run on most types of hardware, you might be able to make money on the effort. If not, the experience gained would be worth the effort, I think.

Interesting thought and perhaps I am more jaded than most.

[Singapura]

I have one of those xxxx-in-1 boards which I think is brilliant. I'd love to have a legal rom set and a proper emulator with all menus in real English though. An iTunes-like setup would create a whole new industry where gamers can download additional cab friendly games. The market is probably too small though.

[saint]

Other than saint and a few of the other old folks,

[CheffoJeffo]

You can't really complain too much after saddling me with that lovely custom title ...

And, yes, I did.

And would again.

[saint]

Heh.

[Blanka]

Yeah, they really should make those 66 in 1 PCB and other classic sets available for MAME use. I'd pay 1-2$/game no problem if the license is right and it has real roms, no crappy front-ends. Now only Taito has something that works with MAME.

OK ... except that the 60-in-1s are *already* MAME and *are* actual ROMs.

 

As if I did not know that  , but they are frikkin illegal. And I don't want a stinking PCB with it. Just the 0's and 1's. Sets like that should be for sale as download/disc with a proper license.

[CheffoJeffo]

Hard to argue with that.

I agree that emulation licenses for those games would be nice.

It's funny that you say "stinking PCB" and I think that the fact that it is a JAMMA PCB is totally preferable to dropping in a PC.

EDIT: Removed smartassed "get-offa-my-lawn" comment ... we're pretty close to each other in terms of what we actually want.

[RayB]

If RayB does develop something, I will buy it, but his time is likely better spent getting that cocktail ready for sale ...

  You're comepletely right of course. 11 days until Christmas!

I would suggest writing games for the broader PC and console market, and make them cab friendly. Phone friendly would be great as well. Playing ms pacman on my tilt is a pain. If you can get a version of your game to run on most types of hardware, you might be able to make money on the effort. If not, the experience gained would be worth the effort, I think.

Yeah, different ports or options for all types of controls... makes sense.

You can't really complain too much after saddling me with that lovely custom title ...

I JUST noticed my own title. 

 

[saint]

I JUST noticed my own title. 

Heh. That was so long ago I don't remember when or why I did that...

[CheffoJeffo]

I JUST noticed my own title. 

Heh. That was so long ago I don't remember when or why I did that...

See, Ray we ARE old ...

 

[RayB]

I JUST noticed my own title. 

Heh. That was so long ago I don't remember when or why I did that...

It was only a month ago, old friend. 

[saint]

Damn kids, getoffamylawn!

[Ummon]

I paid for a game or two from StarRoms back before I found other sources. I think I bought Tempest, and maybe something else. Actually, I think they gave you two freebies and then you had to buy. Or maybe the other way around. Something like that.

Ray, figure out your idea, work up the estimate, and see what is a necessary figure. Without even pitching it you might know if it's feasible.

[Turnarcades]

I'd pay for new games if they were fully original, but I think most concepts have been done to death. Right now we sit in a gaming world that's peaked technically and even the full-HD-motion-sensing-full-immersion-cell-chip-first-person stuff is no more appealing than the first time we picked up a paddle and played pong, so where do we go from here?

It'd be a great thing for someone like RayB to knock out legit, budget games for dedicated arcade use and I agree I'd probably pay for (or even commission for my cabs) a few games that bring that retro feel, but for most people it's nostalgia and having THE ACTUAL GAME you used to pump money into as a kid is more of a temptation for most.

If a few more companies would realise the potential for the retro market and endorse the 'all-doing' MAME instead of trying to knock out their own tiny compilations on next-gen machines at 10 quid a pop, maybe retro would make a mainstream return and they could more reasonably enforce the piracy laws they claim 'hurt developers', and make a few quid without having to create their own servers/burn discs themselves....
 

[Xiaou2]

 I bought Playtpus at $20.   Its rare that I buy a PC game,  but that game really
kicks butt.  The look is great, and the gameplay is pretty polished.  Its got its
flaws..  but overall, its really great.

 However... thats a fullblown game that took like a year to make.  Not a flash game
or a quickly tossed together, basic game.
 
 
 I disagree with Turner.   There is plenty of things to be made that will be great
in games.

 As for retro... a game can exceed a classic, and be more desirable to play.  It
hasnt happened however  (that I can think of) ,  because people who make
clones change vital aspects of gameplay... and or do not spend enough time
balancing the game.   

 Back in the day... maybe they spent a few months getting the basic
engine down...  but many more months were spent honing the gameplay
balance near perfection.

 This is why people prefer the classics instead of the remakes.

 Plenty of Robotron clones out there... but even the best of them dont match the
baddie AI of the original.  Nor do that have that same level of difficulty and balance.
One I played, was so easy that after like the 20 level, I simply turned it off.  I was
board to tears, and tired of it.  There was no challenge whatsoever.  And Theres no way I was going to play for more than 20 min to see if it would actually get difficult later.  What was funny.. was how it got great reviews and ratings. Pathetic.  Blasphemous.


 There are those who Want to make money with classics.  However, they want too
much money for them.  People just wont pay what they want to charge.  And rightfully so.
People supported the games with all their money in the arcades.  They may have also
payed again, with pathetic ports.  And now there are games such as Guitar Hero.. which
offer much more entertainment value for the same price...  the majority of gamers
arent going to pay $50 for a Williams classics disc of 6 ancient games.

 Do you really think anyone can get all the licenses needed for about 1000 mame games?
How about 500?  Not gona happen.  Especially because many of those companies are extinct.  Then there are companies like Capcom which arnt going to give up their goods for $1 or less a pop.

 If you cant get companies to sell a compilation of 200 
80's pop songs for  .10   a song... which is basically all that
people really would pay for most of them...   then you can guess that it wont happen
with roms.   If they feel theres value... then they overcharge to the point where
people wont pay.

 Not to mention... that whatever you purchase will have restrictions on it.  You wont
see roms without them being integrated (inseparable) into their own custom player.  And any roms that would be sold on their own would have legal validity until when?
When they fold? When the companies change their minds? Look at all the fools who
bought roms from that fly-by-night company that has long since vanished.  That
agreement that was purchased...  is just about as good as a used Cinema ticket stub.

 And when your integrated system wont play on your New hardware... then what?


 You cant scream for classics... then tell them you wont pay that much.  If you wont
pay that much... its not worth their interests.  They would rather spend the time
on new projects.

 The reality is that these companies dont really care too much about these older
games.   They dont want anybody's selling them... but,  they arnt witch hunting
either.  In fact, it would cost them way too much to even try... and wouldnt be
worth it.

 The people who make the most noise about retro piracy are nazi emufreaks
who get their panties all twisted over little things.  These people often do more harm than good... brining more negative attention than would otherwise be had... which may
force the companies to take negative actions.

 And finally, I believe these companies know that Mame is a good cause.  Trying to
preserve history.. that otherwise may get lost or erased.   Money is what drives the
companies... not morality.  And when the money ceases.. the stupid laws kicks in.  Companies like Atari,  who file bankruptcy..  are legally bonded to dump things that they have written off,  into the trash.   If they were caught salvaging such things...  individuals
would be legally and financially responsible.  While the average joe employee may
not really care...  the decision makers who have great money and power..  arnt about to
risk it.  The average joe prolly dont want the fines and bad reputation of property
theft/disobedience... when they are about to try to get a new job either.

 I say... be very happy with the current situation.  Its the best that its ever going to
be Imop.

[SithMaster]

I said 10 but that would depend on a number of things. 

How many players will it be designed for.
Theme and genre.
Will it have built in credit function via the coin door.

I don't like the model based on arcade ports to consoles that force a set number of credits on you.

[davidrfoley]

Licensing the classics is a labor of love.  I spent over a decade doing it, and paid millions of dollars in royalties and licensing fees.  The biggest problem is that the big Japanese companies feel their IP is worth much more than the reality.  As an example, I had to pay a deposit of $150,000 just for the Street Fighter Family to Capcom, and $75,000 to Taito for a small subset of games.  Not only do you have to pay enormous up front deposits, they also want crazy per copy fees.  Our best deals were $1.00 per game, but that adds up very quickly on a machine that ships with 86 titles on it.  We had been making some progress but then Global VR screwed up every relationship when they acquired UltraCade.  The dream of a sub $100 "all in" pack is not a reality, nor will it be for some time.  When I was putting together iROMs, I had several deals in place that would only cost $0.10 per ROM, but it required a deposit of $500,000 and a guarantee of $2M in revenues which didn't seem achievable. 

Hopefully, the publishers will realize that there is money to be made with reasonable online distribution pricing.  It took the record industry 20 years to realize this model would work, and companies like Apple investing millions to push it through.  Had we continued with UltraCade, we may have been able to make more progress on this front, but the UltraCade product line was abandoned by Global VR.

[Necroticart]

it's a shame they all want that much for their ips.  What I don't understand is why Capcom for example does not put out a pack of their old classics on the PS3 / Xbox360 for example I bought Super Street Fighter 2 HD remix but if they offered the other versions of SF I would buy those too another example is Mortal Kombat 2 on the PS3 I bought it to and I would buy all the others my point is that they only seem to put a few out here and there why not flood the consoles with a ton of choices to pick from they could make a ton of money for little to no use of resources so why are they not doing it?

[Lilwolf]

Depends on the game and the controls needed to play.

I would love some good robotron remakes... sure there are a few out there... and they are great... but I love the dual joystick style games.

A good trackball game would be nice.  I bought feeding frenzy (kids love it and works great with a trackball).

I would LOVE to see some good games that work well with a starwars controller...  But first I would love to see an aftermarket starwars controller! 

[VespaGuy]

I would definately pay for games - especially if they have that retro feel and simplicity. I would absolutely pay for titles like DK2 if they were made available for purchase (for Mame).

I recently completed my second cabinet, a 2-player cocktail, and I'd love to see more 2 player head-to-head type games (Hat Trick is a blast) and vertical games.