720p and 1080p tvs help!

[Demon-Seed]

Hello
I am looking at purchasing a second LCD or Plasma tv for my basement.  I will be for gaming (PS3, wii, PC) and watching some tv.  My tv I use now is 720p/1080i samsung and the ps3 games look great. I have been told that 1080p is the best, however, I have been told on paper its better however 720p vs 1080p is not noticeable.  I seem to think there maybe some truth to this as when I compare tvs at my local electronics store some 720p tvs look better? I have been reading online and most claim there is no noticeable difference unless you go 50" or larger? Anyways can anyone help me with this debate? I mean if I can go 720 instead I could save lots of money and get a larger screen... any advice and or links would be greatly appreciated in this debate.

[AcidArmitage]

I can't notice a difference between 720p and 1080p unless the screensize is VERY large

[Todd H]

It's basically depends on two things...how big the television is and your seating distance from the screen. Here's a website that should help.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/12/09/1080p-charted-viewing-distance-to-screen-size/

[Demon-Seed]

Hey
Yea I found that chart prior too..it makes sense... i hate to say it but my wife is right in my situation.. she said the 1080 was not worth it for us.. good thing is I can now get a nice 50 inch or so tv.... any suggestions on the tv?? I was leaning towards a LCD but Plasma's do have good prices at times....any suggestions there too?

thx
Jim

[Teknique]

After doing the reserch, I just bought a 58" 1080p panasonic plasma for my home theater (blu-ray/ TV and gaming) and a 32" sony 720p for my bedroom.

IR and burn-in on plasmas are not something that y ou really need to worry about anymore - they have become much less of a factor with the newer generations of TVs.

The reasons I bought a plasma vs. LCD for my theater was:
1. viewing angle- sitting at an angle will yield the same picture quality unlike an LCD. 
2. colors- larger pallate of colors and truer colors also black levels are much deeper.
3. screen refresh rate/ pixel response time is much higher in a plasma than LCD.

Reason I bought a LCD for my bedroom was price.

Tek

[severdhed]

get yourself a nice DLP projector and solve all of your problems.  you can get a native 720p projector for under $1000.  as long as you can control the light in the room, it is the best solution.   This is what i use in my "man room".  i put up some heavy curtians and it looks beautiful. 

i bought a Mitsubishi HC1500 projector, it is native 720p, supports up to 1080p.  has composite, svideo, component, vga, and hdmi ports.  it mounts on the ceiling, you run some cables to your a/v rack and you are good to go.  i have a 102" screen and it takes up absolutely no floor space.  since it is front projection, there are not viewing angle problems at all, it looks perfect from any seat in the room.

it's not for everybody, but it is definitely the most cost effective way to get a great looking, large screen.

[Demon-Seed]

Hey
I thought of that....only downfall is running wires. My basement is all drywalled, so I would need to make some holes. Also how fare back from the wall does it need to be mounted? My room is narrow and I have a 3 light fixtures in the centre of the ceiling.  I am not familiar with projectors, what kind of quality are they now?? any comparison photos?  also how do you connect inputs to it?

I have been trying to read up on them... is the throw dist the dist from the screen back to projector that the projector must be set at to get the size of screen?

thx
JIM

[Teknique]

Projectors are a good option for a raw BIG screen size but go into it knowing that to replace the bulb you are looking at costs of $300+ each time.  Buddy of mine bought one, built a theater around having it, bulb went in 9 or so months and he found out the hard way how much it cost to replace bulb. 

I think they have gurantees on bulbs though so look into those if this is the route you are taking.

Tek

edit to link

If you haven't been here yet then you should check out this site for all TV talk:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/

[Blanka]

You talk about 1080p and 720p TV's. That's weird naming. TV's are either 1920x1080 pixels, or 1366x768 pixels. Some weird Plasma's are 1024x1080 pixels, and have rectengular pixels.
After the base resolution, there is such as thing as signal compatibility. Almost all TV's support 720p, 1080i and 1080p signals nowadays. If a TV in 720p looks better than a 1080p TV (Guess you mean a 1366x768 tv vs a 1920x1080 tv) it means either the display is better (S-PVA technology vs TN technology) or the signal processing is better. Stupid thing is that there are hardly any 720x1280 TV's, so the 720p signal can never be displayed 1:1 pixel perfect. It's always upscaled and thus blurred to some level!

And if they display a crappy NTSC show on both 1366x768 and 1920x1080 screens in a store, it's easier to make a nice picture from the signal on the 1366x768 screen. Maybe that gave you the impression it was looking better.

I would say just buy a 1920x1080 pixel TV. The rest is obsolete already.
One problem: 1920x1080 has a weird size/price gap. You have some 23-26 inch computer monitors at 1920x1080 with TV tuners, but the true TV's start at 32 inch. TV's under 32 inch are mostly 1366x768 screens.

[severdhed]

Hey
I thought of that....only downfall is running wires. My basement is all drywalled, so I would need to make some holes. Also how fare back from the wall does it need to be mounted? My room is narrow and I have a 3 light fixtures in the centre of the ceiling.  I am not familiar with projectors, what kind of quality are they now?? any comparison photos?  also how do you connect inputs to it?

I have been trying to read up on them... is the throw dist the dist from the screen back to projector that the projector must be set at to get the size of screen?

thx
JIM

the throw distance depends on the projector, for mine, with a 102" diagonal picture, the projector needs to be 10-16ft from the screen...

i have:

xbox (modded)
xbox 360 (pro system, upgraded with 120gb drive)
Wii
Ps2
Dreamcast
Samsung Upconverting DVD player
Psyclone source selector
Onkyo 6.1 Receiver


the dreamcast connects to the receiver via svideo
the dvd player connects to the receiver via component video
the 360, xbox, ps2, and wii connect to the psyclone source selector via component video, which connects to the receiver via component video

i then have 30ft component and svideo cables that run from the receiver to the projector through some conduit i attached to the wall. 

i took some pics, but my digital camera is not great, so they dont really do it justice.

here is a shot standing in front of the couch looking at the projector, you can also see my mame cabinet and my one cat, Joey.
www.severdhed.com/images/newhouse/ceilingmount.JPG

here is a shot of assassins creed, during the opening video.  the lights are off in the room.
www.severdhed.com/images/newhouse/assassin.JPG

here is a shot of Portal on the 360, lights off
www.severdhed.com/images/newhouse/lightsoff.JPG

same shot with the lights on dim (i have a 3 way lamp)
www.severdhed.com/images/newhouse/lights1.JPG

same shot with lights on middle setting
www.severdhed.com/images/newhouse/lights2.JPG

same shot with lights on bright
www.severdhed.com/images/newhouse/lights3.JPG

closeup shot from a steep angle, lights on
www.severdhed.com/images/newhouse/angleon.JPG

same shot with lights off
www.severdhed.com/images/newhouse/angleoff.JPG

as you can see, due to the nature of the technology, there is no sweet spot, it looks great no matter what position you are in the room.

like i said, these pics don't do it justice, it looks way better in real life.  and for the price, you just can't beat it at all.  yeah, the bulbs are expensive to replace...mine is rated for 3000 hours of viewing...that is alot of time.  my last projector (not HD) was rated for 4000 hours, i got about 3800 out of it, and that took almost 3 years of heavy use.

besides, some new DLP tvs you have to replace the bulb also.

[Demon-Seed]

Hey
the image on the screen look great in the dark and low light, however in light not so good The screen size is mint, however I am concerned about 2 things......hiding the wires, and the distance I need in ceiling.  I looked and I have alight in the way about 8-10 from the wall   I see that have short throw ones.......not sure if they are good. Also here in Canada I noticed prices are expensive...i may be looking in wrong spot..can anyone suggest a spot for prices and what brand is good? I would assume anything above 50"should have 1080p....?

thx
JIM

[severdhed]

in my old apartment, i had a light about where i wanted the projector...i just removed the light.  i isntalled an electrical outlet instead to i could plug in my projector, and made a mounting bracket that fastened to the studs visible through the hole where the light used to be.  wiring is easy, you can get that stick on conduit at lowes and run it through that. (i screwed it onto the ceiling though, i didn't trust the adhesive to hold)

you definitely need the lights off to get a great picture, but for most things, you can leave the lights on and still use it.  for dark movies or something like that, then the lights need to be down, but if you are watching football or something, you can leave the lights on and it doesnt hurt that much.

[Demon-Seed]

Hey,
I appreciate your advice there.. what is a good starter projector?? wanting 720p.....form my ps3,would also watch tv/movies.....  I am not sure what resolution etc I would need, and I am not sure where to buy.....also what about used?I checked on ebay and there is all kinds of no name china made ones that claim to have alot of features? any idea on ones like that.... I am sure you get what you pay for however some stores on there get amazing reviews. Long ebay link shortened by saint

thanks
Jim

[severdhed]

i great place to start is http://www.projectorcentral.com/

they have alot of info...kinda like this site, only for projectors.  they have alot of in depth reviews, comparisons, etc.

in the top left navigation bar, there is a link to popular projectors for home theater..they are grouped by resolution. there you can see their ratings, a brief summary of some of their features, and an estimated price.  when i bought mine about a year ago, it was the number 2 rated 720p projector, and was about $600 less than the number 1 rated unit. 

my suggestion is go there, look at that list:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/home-theater-multimedia-projectors.htm

and look at some of the models in your price range.  read the reviews and then shop around for a better price.  newegg.com is often really good with prices on this kind of stuff.  I think amazon.com had the best price i could find on the HC1500 that i bought.

look at what kind of inputs they offer and the native resolution.  also take into consideration the contrast and lumen output, as well as estimated lamp life.  because the biggest downfall of a projector is the lamps are around $300 to replace every couple thousand hours of use.  but when you factor in the cost savings over buying a television that is only a fraction of the screen size, it still works out to be a better deal.

i used a projector as my only TV for quite a few years, after i got married however, my wife wasnt too keen on not being able to have the lights on when we watch TV, so we have a standard def, 32" crt tv that is in our living room.  she uses this during the day and most of the time when she wants to watch something.  my projector is in the family room, and mainly gets used when i want to play games, or we want to watch a movie.  this cuts down on the wear and tear on the projector.  my point is, if you are a single guy, then a projector will be fine for your main TV.  if you have a family, it makes a great secondary unit.

[massive88]

Ive had my projector for going on 4 years now and have not yet had the bulb go out.

At this point, when it does go, Im going to replace the projector with a newer better model (with HDMI input and better resolution)

I use my projector for sporting events and movies pretty exclusively though.  Regular TV watching and regular gaming is done on other TVs, so it doesnt get the weekly use that my other, smaller TVs get.

[ChadTower]

i have a 102" screen and it takes up absolutely no floor space.  since it is front projection, there are not viewing angle problems at all, it looks perfect from any seat in the room.

Except that no one can walk in the area between the projector and the screen while it's in use.  It takes up a very large amount of floor space while you're using it.

[Demon-Seed]

Hey
Yea I am kinda torn,the wife says its easier to get a LCD tv, however if I can get similar quality in a projector and get a huge screen I think that would be better.  I would be watching it from  about 12 feet away and wonder if I have a 100" screen is too big or would it look pix elated?  Also  I am concerned about having to play games in the dark, how dark do I need?

I have been considering a short throw projector as well as we have ceiling lights that hang down and the wife wants to keep them.....

thx
Jim

[massive88]

i have a 102" screen and it takes up absolutely no floor space.  since it is front projection, there are not viewing angle problems at all, it looks perfect from any seat in the room.

Except that no one can walk in the area between the projector and the screen while it's in use.  It takes up a very large amount of floor space while you're using it.

Are you using it for dance parties or to sit down and watch things?  Your field of vision takes up a lot of space as well, and people can get in front of that during use of any TV as well.

On my setup, someone can stand in front of the couch and not affect the image (the projector is hanging a foot or two behind the couch).  If you walk toward the screen, then you will start to block the picture.

Projectors really depend on if you have a room that it will work well in, its definitely not a choice for everyone, but saying that it takes up a lot of room while its running is a bit ridiculous.

[severdhed]

i have to agree with massive88, i can walk right in front of my couch and not block the projected image until i am about 5 or 6 feet from the screen, it is not any different that someone standing in front of a TV.  it doesnt matter if you are using a tv or a projector, if someone stands in front of it, you yell at them and tell them to get out of the way.    there isnt a tv out there that isnt affected by the idiot who stands in front of it.  who stands in front of the tv when people are trying to watch it?  we play Wii sports and rock band alot, people stand in front of the couch all the time, and it is never a problem. 

so by your logic, any TV would take up a large amount of floor space when you are using it.  at  least with a projector, it doesnt take up any space when you aren't using it, unlike a tv.

(unless you get one of those puny little ones that hang on the wall...who wants to spend a few thousand dollars on such a small screen?)

to Demon Seed:

i watch mine 102" from about 12 feet away and it does not look pixelated at all, it is very sharp looking, it looks absolutely beautiful.  it isn't too big either...as far as i am concerned, it is just the right size. 
as for plaing games in the dark..it depends on the game.  if i'm playing assassins creed, or geometry wars, or portal, and lots of other games, i play with the lights on sometimes and they are fine...   there are some darker games though that do require that all the lights be turned off and the curtains closed...like bioshock, condemned or quake 4.

they do have their drawbacks, but i find that for me, the good outweighs the bad by a good margin. 

[joebells]

If I was buying a tv right now I would get a 120hz motionflow lcd from sony. Coupled with a good blu-ray player like the ps3 movies will look fantastic. You may think the 120hz is just a gimmick but it eliminates the "judder" which you probably kind of notice but don't. You can really notice it in a movie with a large sweeping shot. You'll see just a bit of jumping, skipping whatever you want to call it. The reason it is there is that movies for the theater are recorded in 24 frames per second but home tv's refresh at 30 or 60 frames a second. 24 doesn't go into either of those evenly so some of the frames must be repeated more than others causing the "judder" blu-ray movies are put onto the disc at 24fps. 24 goes into 120 evenly so all the tv has to do is show each frame 5 time instead of showing frame one 2 times and then frame 2 three times and so on. Its kind of eerie the first time you see it. But the next tv we buy will definately have the 120hz refresh rate.

Plasma does have the advantage of better black levels but the newest lcd panels are pretty dang good. I was the biggest fan of plasma until the 120hz panels came out.

And the 1080p thing I agree that it isn't necessary until you get to larger screen sizes. But I won't buy another 720p screen because they are all 1366x768 so any signal you send them will have to be scaled. I prefer as little scaling as possible. I don't understand why all the panels are like that if they made a true 1280x720 panel I would probably get one of those.

[Blanka]

Thats why europe has 600Hz LCD's. We have to deal with 50fps and 24fps

[Necroticart]

I hope in the future that they do away with both the NTSC and Pal standard and adopt a universal standard. Encoding HD video from one format to the other is a pain, for example the German broadcasts of star wars in 25p. Reencoding video down to 24p then resyncing the audio to play on the ps3, and if anyone says why go though the trouble and its a simple answer, star wars in HD is amazing and its the only way i could watch the star wars movies, from now on as soon as Lucas puts his out. I will gladly buy my 5th version of the films i'm sure some of the 501 troopers on our forums will agree and I know I've seen a few.

BTW using the on screen keyboard on the PS3 is a pain thats why I could care less what it looks like. If i'm on my PC i'm a little better but in the end who actually cares if I use periods or comas in my posts as long as they are readable and make sense even if was a bit off topic this time.

[ahofle]

If I was buying a tv right now I would get a 120hz motionflow lcd from sony. Coupled with a good blu-ray player like the ps3 movies will look fantastic. You may think the 120hz is just a gimmick but it eliminates the "judder" which you probably kind of notice but don't. You can really notice it in a movie with a large sweeping shot. You'll see just a bit of jumping, skipping whatever you want to call it. The reason it is there is that movies for the theater are recorded in 24 frames per second but home tv's refresh at 30 or 60 frames a second. 24 doesn't go into either of those evenly so some of the frames must be repeated more than others causing the "judder" blu-ray movies are put onto the disc at 24fps. 24 goes into 120 evenly so all the tv has to do is show each frame 5 time instead of showing frame one 2 times and then frame 2 three times and so on. Its kind of eerie the first time you see it. But the next tv we buy will definately have the 120hz refresh rate.

I have a 120Hz Samsung and I actually don't care for the 'auto motion plus' as they call it (same as motion flow) in most circumstances.  It makes movies look 'cheap' IMO and it feels like you are watching a soap opera recorded on a camcorder.  I usually turn it off for movies because I like the 24fps look of film.  It is good for watching sports though.

[shmokes]

Dear Necroticart,

Hi.  I'm period.  Please don't confuse me with my hormone-laced, blood covered cousin.  Nobody likes those periods.  I'm the little dot that comes at the end of sentences, and people seriously love me.  I would very much like to make your acquaintance, and hopefully we'll hit it off and have a life-long relationship with one another.  I've thought about this quite a lot recently, and I really think we could be best friends.  Please think about it.

Best regards,

Period

[ChadTower]

Dear shmokes,

Hi.  I'm Comma.  Please don't stick me in the middle of sentences where there is no separation of clauses.  I am not intended to be used as a conversational pause.  You probably need to reorder the thoughts contained therein should you need a pause in the middle of a written sentence.  Please think about it.

Best regards,

Comma

PS - please give my regards to Period.

[joebells]

If I was buying a tv right now I would get a 120hz motionflow lcd from sony. Coupled with a good blu-ray player like the ps3 movies will look fantastic. You may think the 120hz is just a gimmick but it eliminates the "judder" which you probably kind of notice but don't. You can really notice it in a movie with a large sweeping shot. You'll see just a bit of jumping, skipping whatever you want to call it. The reason it is there is that movies for the theater are recorded in 24 frames per second but home tv's refresh at 30 or 60 frames a second. 24 doesn't go into either of those evenly so some of the frames must be repeated more than others causing the "judder" blu-ray movies are put onto the disc at 24fps. 24 goes into 120 evenly so all the tv has to do is show each frame 5 time instead of showing frame one 2 times and then frame 2 three times and so on. Its kind of eerie the first time you see it. But the next tv we buy will definately have the 120hz refresh rate.

I have a 120Hz Samsung and I actually don't care for the 'auto motion plus' as they call it (same as motion flow) in most circumstances.  It makes movies look 'cheap' IMO and it feels like you are watching a soap opera recorded on a camcorder.  I usually turn it off for movies because I like the 24fps look of film.  It is good for watching sports though.

I shouldn't of said the motion flow part as I don't generally care for the interpolated frames either. But when you turn off the motionflow setting it doesn't create interpolated frames and instead just repeats the frames since these tv's always run at 120hz.

[Cakemeister]

Dear shmokes,

Hi.  I'm Comma.  Please don't stick me in the middle of sentences where there is no separation of clauses.  I am not intended to be used as a conversational pause.  You probably need to reorder the thoughts contained therein should you need a pause in the middle of a written sentence.  Please think about it.

Best regards,

Comma

PS - please give my regards to Period.

Huh? Unless Shmokes edited his response before I read it, his usage of commas is correct.

Of course, I could easily be wr--- about that. I wasn't an English major.