Extremely blurry 27" TV

[LLUncoolJ]

I am in the final phases of my first MAME cabinet project. I have a de-cased 27" flat CRT Toshiba connected via S-Video to a low end Nvidia card (running Vista). The results are not good. The picture is so blurry that you cannot even navigate windows without recognizing the graphics (start window, etc). The video card will let me switch back and forth to a monitor that I have hooked up to the VGA port. However, it will not let me run the TV and the monitor at the same time (clone), so it is tough to tinker with the settings.

So far, everything I've messed with has done very little to remedy the blurriness. Does anyone have any suggestions I can try? The TV actually has a pretty sharp picture when connected to other sources. I am starting to suspect the video card, but before I spend a bunch of money on a new one, I'd like to eliminate the other possible fixes.

Thanks in advance!

[SirPeale]

Lower your resolution.  TVs weren't made to display crystal clear VGA graphics.

[LLUncoolJ]

When the video card recognizes the TV, it only offers 2 settings and there is little if any difference between them.  I have tried them both. This is not really a question of not very sharp, it is unreadable in fonts lower than say 18 point.

[ahofle]

I've noticed similar blurriness on NVIDA TV-out.  Do you happen to have an ATI card lying around you could try?  If not you can pick up an older one for really cheap on Ebay.  I used to have an ATI Radeon 7500 and the TV out was pretty good on it.  My friend used an NVIDIA (can't remember which card) and it was horrible in comparison.

[LLUncoolJ]

I am going to hook up a dvd player tonight and see how it looks. It was fine before I mounted it in the cabinet.  I will also try the S-Video cord on another component. If the monitor is functioning properly and the cord is not the problem, I am really leaning toward switching out the video card. Unfortunately the only ATI I have is a PCI express and won't fit in my tower, so I'll have to order one.

[SirPeale]

When the video card recognizes the TV, it only offers 2 settings and there is little if any difference between them.  I have tried them both. This is not really a question of not very sharp, it is unreadable in fonts lower than say 18 point.

Install QuickRes, that should offer you more modes from the system tray, or go to advanced settings and get them that way.

[ahofle]

From what I've found, the only resolution that looks decent on a TV over S-Video is 640x480.  Presumably this is because it's the closest thing to the actual signal going to the TV (480i).

[Ummon]

I seem to recall some people having better results with Power Strip and Soft15, because they fed the TV an interlaced signal. Definitely S-video is an iffy thing in itself. Some have had great experiences with no messing around. Many haven't.

[LLUncoolJ]

OK, I hooked up my ps2 to the monitor last night and boom...crappy, blurry picture...problem is in the tv.

I don't know if anybody is familiar with the inner workings of a TV. When I de-cased the monitor, there was what looked like a coaxle cable running around the parameter of the tube near the screen. When I set this big, ackward thing in the cabinet and bolted it in, I noticed the cable had slipped off the top of the tube. I have read some scary stuff about touching the wrong thing on one of these or messing with the bare, twisted wire connected by springs to the corners. So I shoved the cable back on the top corners the best I could.
Last night, I pulled that cable back down and noticed an improvement. The other side was wedged in pretty good, so I let it be. I then adjusted the contrast down and the brightness up a little. All of the sudden, I could read what was on the screen.

It is far from perfect, but a dramatic improvement. It is still a little difficult to make out smaller fonts in Windows and Mala. IF anyone has any further suggestions based on this latest revelation, please share. Also, if anyone knows the purpose of the cable I spoke of, please elaborate (27" Toshiba Flat Tube).  Thanks!

[Zebidee]

IF anyone has any further suggestions based on this latest revelation, please share. Also, if anyone knows the purpose of the cable I spoke of, please elaborate

The only way to really improve your picture is to get a decent monitor or TV-cum-monitor with RGB input.  Once you see it, you will not go back.

As for the "coaxial" cable, I think you are talking about the degaussing coil.  It will help the picture considerably if your TV can auto-degauss the screen properly.  You could try an external coil as well, if you have one or know someone with one.  But realistically, if you want to see those small fonts then go RGB.

[LLUncoolJ]

My TV has RGB inputs, but my video card has only S-video and vga. I guess I would need to get a card with DVI output and a DVI to RGB dongle to go that route. Any suggestions...cheaper the better?

[Todd H]

By RGB inputs, are you talking about component inputs (one cable for red, one for green, and one for blue)? What model television is this?

[LLUncoolJ]

I'm assuming that is what the RGB means. I'm not sure of the exact model, it is a 27" Toshiba flat tube.

[Flake]

RBG is another term for component.  I believe it refers to the Red/Blue/Green inputs you see for your component connection.

[Zebidee]

RBG is another term for component.  I believe it refers to the Red/Blue/Green inputs you see for your component connection.

Not so!  RGB is superior to component input as it uses an extra one or two signal inputs for sync.  Think of it as extra bandwidth.  Component runs the sync over the top of two of the colour input, resulting in a small degradation in picture quality. Nonetheless, component is still superior to s-video.

I've run mame on a component TV before, but am not rushing to do it again because I wasn't happy with the quality compared to SCART or RGB monitor.

Many people in the USA don't understand this because TVs there usually don't have SCART inputs (SCART inputs on TVs allow RGB+sync signal input).  However, all arcade monitors use RGB+sync inputs, even in the USA.

[Jack Burton]

RGB is not equal to Component.

As Zebidee says, it usually uses separate sync, although it does not always do so. 

But the main difference is the color seperation.  I don't know the specifics, but if you plug RGB colors into a component port you will have a very hard green tint to your screen.

Additionally, as far as I know, no matter what resolution you set your computer to, all Nvidia cards will resize that resolution to 640x480 through the s-video out. 

You screen is blurry because it a TV.  There are numerous reasons for this, and you can look them up here on the forum or though google search.   There are tons of articles that detail why.

Nvideo cards don't seem to have very good S-video out, as ahofle says, try an ATI card, or find a card with component out.

You best bet for running a TV in a MAME cabinet is to do all your set up at the desktop connect to a PC monitor, get your frontend up and running with a nice big font, and then put it into your cabinet. 

[fronty]

.

[richms]

Are the TV's onscreen menus blurry as well? Could just need a tweek of the focus control on the flyback (Assuming they still put it there) - fixed a tv I got from the roadside that way and its still going fine

[qrz]

[quote author=LLUncoolJ link=topic=87213.msg916165#msg916165 date=1228490338

I don't know if anybody is familiar with the inner workings of a TV. When I de-cased the monitor, there was what looked like a coaxle cable running around the parameter of the tube near the screen. When I set this big, ackward thing in the cabinet and bolted it in, I noticed the cable had slipped off the top of the tube. I have read some scary stuff about touching the wrong thing on one of these or messing with the bare, twisted wire connected by springs to the corners. So I shoved the cable back on the top corners the best I could.
Last night, I pulled that cable back down and noticed an improvement. The other side was wedged in pretty good, so I let it be. I then adjusted the contrast down and the brightness up a little. All of the sudden, I could read what was on the screen.

[/quote]

that would be the degaussing coil.
the "bare twisted wire connected by springs.... " is the crt ground strap.
if the focus is good with standard tv signals , problem must be due to what it is being fed .
what is the model of the tv ? ( i may (?) have the service manual )
fyi, toshiba frequently had the model/serial number on the tuner shield-assuming u no longer posses the cabinet 

qrz     directing electrons > 25yrs

[Zebidee]

qrz, I like your avatar - kind of a mandala for electronics.  Got a higher-res original somewhere?

[LLUncoolJ]

Are the TV's onscreen menus blurry as well? Could just need a tweek of the focus control on the flyback (Assuming they still put it there) - fixed a tv I got from the roadside that way and its still going fine

The menus are not blurry. Assuming I know very little about the inner workings of a TV, what is the flyback and where on it would this control be?

I have increased the font in my Mala layout as much as I can, and it is OK, not great. I am trying out Maximus and it looks a whole lot better. But I have a zillion kinks to work out if I go that route (video not working, trying to figure out how to get pac-drive to communicate, etc).

[ahofle]

If you have component connections on your TV, you should be going that route IMO and not wasting time trying to get S-Video to look right.  Search around here for 'ATI component adapter' for more info. 

[richms]

If the on screen menus are ok then there is no point messing with the focus.

Get some pics of it showing text and showing the onscreen meny. Closeups with the macro mode of your camera would be good rather then something that shows nothing.

[LLUncoolJ]

What would be a good, inexpensive video card with dvi output (for components)? My slot is a pci express x16.

[newkillergenius]

or you might try adjusting the 'focus' on the flyback that you may have bumped while 'uncasing' the set

[LLUncoolJ]

or you might try adjusting the 'focus' on the flyback that you may have bumped while 'uncasing' the set

Is the focus an obvious control? What am I looking for? All I see is a circuit board on the end of the neck of the tube (is that the flyback?) Excuse my ignorance of the subject...I'm more of an expert on watching TV.

[SirPeale]

If the menus are clear then the problem is not the focus.

[Ummon]

or you might try adjusting the 'focus' on the flyback that you may have bumped while 'uncasing' the set

Is the focus an obvious control? What am I looking for? All I see is a circuit board on the end of the neck of the tube (is that the flyback?) Excuse my ignorance of the subject...I'm more of an expert on watching TV.

google

[LLUncoolJ]

UPDATE:

OK, I switched out the existing video card, which was a low end Nvidia to a ATI Radeon X1300 PRO. It did improve the picture a little, but still lots of room for improvement. Plus, there is a bit of an overscan horizontally (I guess that's what you would call it). I am still running S-Video. I have a DIV to Component adapter ordered. Supposedly it only works with ATI 9000 and above, but I have read in forums that it works with some other ATI cards, so I took a chance. According to ATI's website, the 9000 series cards are all AGP, I had to have a PCI express.

Anyway, I'll post the verdict when the adapter arrives. Hopefully this mess will help someone out down the road.

[SirPeale]

So what resolution are you running, anyway?

[LLUncoolJ]

I just set it to 640x480 when I installed the new card, the Nvidia wouldn't let me adjust to lower than 800x600. MAME looks good, it wasn't bad before. I am running MaLa FE. It looks pretty good with the fonts jacked all the way up.

[Ummon]

I'm thinking you just didn't know how to access that resolution with the Nvidia card. If you'd gone through the forceware icon, it would've shown all available resolutions. Windows 'display' panel won't show below 800x600, almost regardless.

Of note here, for anyone watching, yes one can use multires or the ultimarc display tool, but the potential problem with these is they change the resolution and don't ask if you for sure want it. If your monitor goes out of sync, then you may have to drag a number of other monitors up and see if they do. Admittedly, this usually happens when selecting a res above VGA, and though the monitors I've been using also do SVGA and XGA, they won't at 85hz, which is what sometimes what the res is at. So. I usually use the video card's graphics FE.

[richms]

If you are messing around with resolutions, install VNC or one of its derivitives since that will remote you to the active screen so you can correct it. Easy solution with no moving of computers needed

[LLUncoolJ]

Update: My DIV to component adapter showed up and it looks like I lost my gamble. It doesn't appear to be compatible with my video card. I switched the TV over to that feed and it was not detecting it. It detected the S-video immediately. So it looks like for the time, I am stuck with S-video. It's weird that those adapters work with some models of ATI cards and not others.

[richms]

Not really weird, once they started to put tv encoders on the cards that supported HD out then there was little reason to keep with the support for sending it via the VGA converter on the card with all the inflexibility that it caused - I can see that using the adapter would be a support nightmare for them, whereas the HD out on the tv encoder just works.

There might be some way to get it to work with powerstrip, but that doesnt let you force a dvi port into analog mode if the card doesnt detect anything connected, and the detection of the dongle wont be used on a card not made for it. Actually, I doubt it would end up working even with powerstrip.

[qrz]

qrz, I like your avatar - kind of a mandala for electronics.  Got a higher-res original somewhere?

Tnx, i don't recall where the orig was found .

 but,  this one has a bit o' colour

http://www.reuk.co.uk/Ohms-Law.htm



been repairing consumer electronics >25yrs.   i.e , if it uses electricity.....

 and since EVERYONE is a beginner at some point , i thought the
Ohm's/Watt's law pie chart would be an appropriate reminder.


qrz

[Zebidee]

i thought the
Ohm's/Watt's law pie chart would be an appropriate reminder.

qrz

ta!   

[cmoses]

Update: My DIV to component adapter showed up and it looks like I lost my gamble. It doesn't appear to be compatible with my video card. I switched the TV over to that feed and it was not detecting it. It detected the S-video immediately. So it looks like for the time, I am stuck with S-video. It's weird that those adapters work with some models of ATI cards and not others.

Did you ever figure out a solution?  I ask because I am about to embark on the same adventure.  Switching to a TV for my cabinet.

[Zebidee]

It has been a while since I looked, but I am sure that ATI published a fact sheet for the DVI-component adapter which tells you exactly which video cards models it works with.  Probably only a google away.