Is there a way to delay output from a microswitch? (Zultan fortune teller mod)

[chiLLbiLLy]

I'm currently working on the Zultan fortune teller mod featured in Gameroom Magazine several months back, only I'm trying to take it one step further and also add a fortune card dispenser, in addition to making it coin-operated.  I know that if I wire the dispenser to the coin mech, then it will dispense a fortune card immediately upon insertion of a quarter (which also will fire off Zultan at the exact same time).

If I'm remembering right, real fortune teller machines from back in the day use to do their thing after you put in your money... then when they were done moving and reading your fortune orally, a paper fortune would spit out.  Anyone know if there is any easy way to achieve this delay?  Unfortunately, I have zero electronics experience, except for minimal wiring skills.  If this is too difficult or expensive to achieve, then I'll just have to let everything fire off at the same time.  I was just hoping for some simple ideas for delaying the dispensing of the fortune cards...

[BobA]

You can use a time delay relay.   Expensive but they work well and are simple to wire.

[Level42]

http://www.vellemanusa.com/us/enu/product/view/product.asp?id=350614

[kayoteq]

Can't read the actual article, but based on the movie of its operation..if you wanted the card to pop out when the curtain drops,
 a reed switch in the base of the front, triggered by the curtain dropping (a magnet placed in the bottom of one of the curtains),

or a coin mech microswitch with the wire placed so that the curtain dropping back triggers the dispenser.,
or an optical switch with something attached to the curtain that blocks the light triggering the dispenser.



Looks like you have a time period when there's power to the thing, so in theory fiddling with that switch when it's not on shouldn't dispense anything.

[chiLLbiLLy]

Ok, almost a year later and I'm finally getting around to completing this project.  Got sidetracked by a great many things...oh well.

Anyway, in thinking more about it, I don't really think a trip switch is going to work very well in the long run (either microswitch or optical), because the curtains basically start out closed...then open during the show, then close again when the show ends, which is about the time I want the card dispenser to fire.  This would mean that a switch would be tripped twice (once when the curtains open and again when they close), before the time I want the card dispenser to actually spit out a fortune card.

So, I've completed the actual cabinet, where the coin mech and card dispenser are mounted, and am just about to open up the actual Zultan machine, so I might see something different with the actual motion of the curtain arms, but unless something jumps out at me, I'm thinking that a time delay relay may be the way to go here, except I know nothing about them.

I saw that link to the Velleman kit, but I don't want to have to assemble the whole thing from scratch.  I would like to just run down to Radio Shack or Fry's and pick one up, if they actually carry them, otherwise I guess I can order one online, if I can find one that's not a do-it-yourself kit.  But anyway, my general questions are:

Do time delay relays require a power source?

I assume there is some sort of dial to select a length of time to delay (or buttons) on the time delay unit, right?

Would the wiring basically consist of just wiring the time delay to the coin mech microswitch (which is also where Zultan gets wired) and then wired out to the card dispenser?  Which means I'm assuming there are both input and output jacks, ports or terminals on the actual time delay relay.

[Kevin Mullins]

Not knowing exactly what you have to work with.... but why not wire a relay or the card mechanism directly to be triggered by whatever triggers the curtains to close ?
When when the curtain closing action is activated it also activates the card spitter outer.

[Ed_McCarron]

"Do time delay relays require a power source?"

Depends on the relay and usage.  If you want an on-delay (output triggers after input is high for some length of time) then the input itself is typically used as the power source.

For an off delay (output triggers at some time after input has gone low) then yes - you need power to work the electronics in the relay.

If its 120 switching, I use these all the time for an off-the-shelf solution.

http://www.atcdiversified.com/ATC/407B_series.htm

[chiLLbiLLy]

Ok, now that I've finally had a chance to look inside my Zultan machine, I'm pretty sure I won't be able to just simply rig up a microswitch, reed switch or optical switch, to trigger the fortune card dispenser, when the curtains close.  Like I said before, the real problem is that the curtains start closed, open upon operation, then close again, which means you're triggering the switch twice...on opening AND closing, when I really only want it to trigger on closing.  Pretty sure you'd have the same problem wiring directly to the curtain motor wires (there's just two of them), as I would think it would simply fire the fortune card dispenser, both upon opening AND closing again.

So...that means my next option is the time delay relay.  Went to Radio Shack and Fry's today, but they had nothing.  Not surprised about Radio Shack, but I thought Fry's might have something.  I've previously checked out that Velleman relay that Level42 linked above, but that's a kit that requires assembly, w/soldering, etc.  Don't really have the time or desire to put a kit together at the moment, even though it might not be that difficult.  Then, the one Ed linked looks like more than I would need, but then again, I'm talking about something I've know nothing about, so there ya go.

It just seems so simple in theory...input wires from the coin mech to the relay...set the delay time...output wires to the card dispenser...don't know if this type of relay needs power or not.  So, the two previous links notwithstanding, does anyone have any other links to a good, simple time delay relay, that would serve my purposes right out of the box?

[Level42]

I'm not sure how a Zultan is set up, but I assume this: There is a motor that opens or closes the curtains. It will have to run in the oposite direction to open or close right ?

If so, with my limited knowledge of electromotors, there should be a different wire or contact that desides which direction it runs.

Now, is there any reason why the card should be dispensed after the curtains close ? Is there any reason why it couldn't be dispensed right at the start of the closing of the curtain ? I don't know how original Zultans work, might be that the originals dispensed it after they closed ?

Anyway, if that's not important, you should be able to do something with the trigger signal for the closing of the curtain. A simple replay could already work.

About the kit I linked to: Most Velleman kits are also available ready-built, but it looks not this one. They do have other timer kits that are ready assembled.

The kit I linked to does require power, but it is much more flexible than the time relays with dial. These are probably also much more expensive, but I'm not sure.

Check out this link which has a list of the various ways it can work:
http://www.apogeekits.com/relay_switch_k8015.htm

[chiLLbiLLy]

Well, there are two wires going to the curtain motor...a red one and a white one.  I figured that, between the two of them, there had to be one for power, one for sending the open/close pulse and one for ground, or at least one of the wires serves dual functions or something like, there's no need for a ground wire, etc.  And before you ask, yes I'm a complete novice (idiot), when it comes to most electronics...a lot of trial and error, I'm afraid...mostly error.

Anyway, I was operating under the assumption that the curtains arms worked using a rotating type of  mechanism, whereas one stimulus rotates to the open position and the next one would further rotate to the closed position, therefore negating the need for separate open and closed wires, but I could easily be wrong about that, if you think there's a good chance one wire is for open and one for close.  I'm afraid of actually taking the curtain motor apart, for fear I'll never get it back together, as flimsy as it all appears to be, but I could try tapping into both wires to see what happens.

[Ed_McCarron]

Is the motor DC or AC?

Two wires and reversing implies DC.  If so, you could use a diode to split off the direction you want.

I'd be more inclined to agree with your first suggestion that reversing is mechanical and the motor only spins one direction.

[phreak97]

I can come up with a solution for you, I'm sure of it, but I have to go to bed now, I'll hopefully remember to come back and write some possibilities up, but if I dont, feel free to pm me.

I'm thinking along the lines of using a relay in conjunction with a switch which is pressed by the curtain, or triggered by any other movements in the machine. I know it's been said, but I can come up with a more complicated design (though easy to wire with instructions) than a straight on or off signal.

you can wire relays to do just about anything, if you get a 5 pin relay or two, you can really get creative and have multiple triggers which must be triggered in the correct order, or you can have seperate on and off triggers, or combinations of those two examples. with one 5 pin relay and two switches I designed a circuit which ran a turnstyle, rotating it 1/4 turn (with a microswitch and a notch at each stop position) each pulse. most functions can be performed with just one 5 pin relay, or two four pin relays and some resistors, but the more relays you use the more the possibilities expand.

can you tell I like relays?