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Author Topic: Why are some games choppy? Even very basic older games.  (Read 2747 times)

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vetteguy112233

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Why are some games choppy? Even very basic older games.
« on: June 28, 2008, 11:05:14 am »
I'm using the newest ver of MameUI32 and noticed that some games are very choppy, they play, but it's almost like there is a studder. The characters move twice, the sounds effects go twice, it all happens very fast, but it's annoying.

The PC I built is a Pentium 1.7GHz, 512MB DDR RAM, Win XP Pro, Asus P4R800-VM motherboard, ArcadeVGA card and IPAC4 controller.

I've noticed that Contra, Golden Axe, Donkey Kong and Double Dragon do it. I was thinking I might need more RAM, but 512 should be enough to play ANYTHING older, right?

Ginsu Victim

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Re: Why are some games choppy? Even very basic older games.
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2008, 12:03:47 pm »
Your system is too slow for those games in the current mame build, especially Donkey Kong.

Your RAM is good enough, but you either need to upgrade your computer, or downgrade your mame.

vetteguy112233

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Re: Why are some games choppy? Even very basic older games.
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2008, 12:16:44 pm »
I searched the forum for system requirements and noticed that a lot of people are running a running a processor less than 1GHz so I figured my 1.7GHz would be good enough, so what is recommended?

I bought Area 51 and House of the Dead (for Windows) and it exceeds the requirements for them and they are a lot newer and more graphic than plain old Donkey Kong, so what do you guys recommend?

fatfingers

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Re: Why are some games choppy? Even very basic older games.
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2008, 12:57:03 pm »

I have no idea what is recommended...but the reason that "plain old Donkey Kong" is slower even though it's way simpler is because of the emulation overhead.  If those other games were being emulated, they would not work at all.

My DK low scores
-------------------
1) 180700
2) 165000
3) 162900
4) 162600
5) 158500


W.W.P.M.D.?                                       I'm here to help ... I just don't do it. ™

vetteguy112233

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Re: Why are some games choppy? Even very basic older games.
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2008, 01:24:37 pm »
So are Mario Bros/Super Mario Bros not as "advanced" as Donkey Kong, because they run just fine?

Ginsu Victim

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Re: Why are some games choppy? Even very basic older games.
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2008, 01:42:46 pm »
Don't compare games' emulation. Each game has its own emulator within MAME. Donkey Kong has sound emulation that takes a beast to get right. It's been wrong for a long time, and merely used samples to approximate what it couldn't emulate.

Jdurg

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Re: Why are some games choppy? Even very basic older games.
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2008, 02:04:02 pm »
Okay.  In order to fully understand why some things work and some don't, you need to have an idea on how videogames work and how emulation works.

All games we typically play are run off of computers.  The games themselves are simply sets of instructions for the computer chips to run.  Because these arcade games are built specifically for one function, the people who developed them wrote the code specifically for those computer chips. They don't need to write it so that it can run on 8-million different machines like modern PC Games do.  They know EXACTLY what system the games will run on so they write the code in that "language".

When you emulate something, you are running the code designed for one piece of hardware on a completely different piece of hardware.  As a result, this code needs to be "translated" into something that our computers can use.  The CPU in your computer is not able to run the code that is written for the CPUs and other chips on an arcade board.  An emulator is custom written code that will translate the code from those arcade chips (ROMs) into instructions that your computer can use. 

A good analogy is reading a book that is written in Japanese.  If you understand Japanese you are able to read that book quite quickly and without any issues at al.  If you don't read Japanese, you have to have that book translated into the language you know, and some languages are easier to translate into than others.  Therefore, it will take you longer to read that book than someone who understands Japanese.  In terms of emulation, our computers are the people who don't know Japanese, and the arcade games are the readers who do know Japanese.  The game code itself (ROMs) is the book.

So why are we able to run some games really fast and others really slow?  It all depends on how fast the arcade games' chips ran, and how many they had.  If a game has a lot of processors, even if they run relatively slowly the emulation will be quite slow.  If a game has a small number of chips, but one or more run really fast (See NFL Blitz) then it will result in a slow emulation.  The emulator has to translate ALL of the code into something the computer runs so there is a lot of emulation overhead.  This is why the games that you think should run pretty fast because they are only 100 MHz chips take quite a lot of CPU power.  Remember, the emulator has to emulate every single input, output, video signal, audio signal, etc. etc. that existes on a game board.

As emulators progress, the accuracy of their emulation tends to increase.  Initially, a game might run faster because instead of emulating a particular process, they use a hack which doesn't accurately function like the real board does, but generates the same response.  While this is great for those who want to play, it's not great for those who actually want to document how the game works.  In addition, the hacks might not always work properly and it will result in behavior that is unexpected or unwanted.

With Donkey Kong, for a long time the sound in that game was accomlished via a hack.  Instead of doing the proper emulation, they just went and used recorded sound samples and had the emulator call those samples when a sound was needed.  Since they didn't have to translate that sound generation, the game ran very fast.  Donkey Kong, as well as a lot of other games, used special circuitry and electronics to develop the sounds.  Due to hardware limitations and various other factors, the actual sound wasn't emulated until just recently.  Now, they have figured out how to use code compatible with modern computers to recreate the sounds that were generated by the electronics and circuitry in those original boards.  This meant that a lot more chips and processes had to be "translated" so the overall speed of the emulation dropped significantly while the actual accuracy of the emulation went up tremendously.  A lot of people whined and cried about this because they wanted to just play the game, but the end result is that the way the game itself ran is now properly documented and people years from now would be able to recreate that game's hardware if needed.

In the end, you can always use an older version of MAME and sacrifice accuracy for speed, or you can upgrade the hardware you have and sacrifice speed for better accuracy.  Whenever you build a cab, this is something that must be kept in mind.
Donkey Kong High Scores:
1): 49,500
2): 35,600
3): 30,100
4): 29,400
5): 28,200

vetteguy112233

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Re: Why are some games choppy? Even very basic older games.
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2008, 02:14:59 pm »
WOW! Thanks for the info. I had tons of pc parts laying around, so I just built what I could out of what I had. I guess I'll consider getting a newer setup with more ram and see how that runs.

So are any of you able to get the above mentioned games to run properly on your setup? If so, what speed processor/memory...... are you running?

gonzo90017

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Re: Why are some games choppy? Even very basic older games.
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2008, 03:02:28 pm »
Quote
I bought Area 51 and House of the Dead (for Windows) and it exceeds the requirements for them and they are a lot newer and more graphic than plain old Donkey Kong, so what do you guys recommend?
The pc games run full speed since they don't require an emulator.

Quote
I've noticed that Contra, Golden Axe, Donkey Kong and Double Dragon do it. I was thinking I might need more RAM, but 512 should be enough to play ANYTHING older, right?

I run those games you mentioned full speed on a Pentium 2 at 233mhz and 160mb of ram. Except for Double Dragon.  ;D
More ram won't help. Just downgrade your mame version. Try 106.

Jdurg

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Re: Why are some games choppy? Even very basic older games.
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2008, 03:11:48 pm »
I'm running a Core2Duo at 2.66 GHz on Windows Vista 64-bit Home Premium with 4 GB of RAM.  RAM really doesn't play any part in the speed of the gameplay with emulators.  All of the game data is loaded upon the start of the emulation, so adding more RAM will only really aide in the start-up times of the games.  Once the emulation has started, it's all in the hands of the CPU.  As long as you have enough RAM to load the entire game, you won't see any benfit with adding more.  With the cost of RAM being next to nothing these days, it never hurts to put as much in your system as you can.  Also, Core2Duo CPUs and parts are pretty cheap these days as long as you aren't trying to buy the absolute fastest system on the planet.

One more thing.  Games like Double Dragon and Golden Axe will show slowdown no matter what your system is.  This is because the actual code written for the arcade hardware itself was too much for the hardware to handle.  The actual Arcade Machines exhibited the exact same slowdown with too much action on screen and MAME emulates this perfectly.
Donkey Kong High Scores:
1): 49,500
2): 35,600
3): 30,100
4): 29,400
5): 28,200

Ginsu Victim

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Re: Why are some games choppy? Even very basic older games.
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2008, 04:05:26 pm »
Yep, both of those games slowed down on the real machine. Too bad it's emulated in, but if it wasn't, it wouldn't be a proper emulation, it would be a hack.

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Re: Why are some games choppy? Even very basic older games.
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2008, 06:39:30 pm »
Jdurg:

Dude.  Thank you. Seriously.  I think that your post should be a required read for ANYONE who wants to use these forums.  I've given that explanation 100 times but you put it perfectly so ANYONE could understand it.

 :applaud: :cheers: :laugh: ;D :D

Jdurg

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Re: Why are some games choppy? Even very basic older games.
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2008, 10:54:32 pm »
Not a problem.  These types of questions get asked so frequently and it can take years of being in the "hobby" before it can be fully understood.  Add to that the fact that the developers of MAME have just gotten so fed up with all the people attracted to their "works" and just aren't as willing to explain this in a language that people unfamiliar with computer coding can understand.  (I think I may have been on of the last "newbies" to ask them questions directly and get answers without being bitched at or completely ignored.   ;D )  I've been interested in, and following, MAME for ten plus years now.  It's still amazing to me and being able to understand it, custom code some very simple things to my liking, etc. etc. have made the enjoyment much better.  Hopefully all the "newbies" to the hobby will feel the same way.
Donkey Kong High Scores:
1): 49,500
2): 35,600
3): 30,100
4): 29,400
5): 28,200