What a horrible thing to do to a child.

[myntik1]

to set the record straight I care for my son more than I ever could have imagined.

I don't think my little brother ever got swatted on the backside. for me I was a bit more precocious and needed some additional guidance. I know the difference.  For the government to ban spankings and such is wrong in my eyes.  You can't legislate good behavior, sometimes it needs a helping hand.

[Singapura]

Chad . . . I saw an awesome product for people (like me) who think putting a kid on a leash is just fundamentally wrong, but are still worried about the whole, turn your head and their gone scenario.  It's a proximity alarm that can be set to a couple of different distance settings.

Nice if you have four kids (or more). Then you can play that movie where the prisoners were going "poof" whenever they strayed to far from their "buddy". If forgot the title.

But seriously, I have one rule: you-should-not-hit-women-or-childeren-ever period. An (ex) good friend of mine started beating his wife and I called the cops on him. Once you start hitting you loose all credibility.

[shmokes]

to set the record straight I care for my son more than I ever could have imagined.

For the government to ban spankings and such is wrong in my eyes. 

A government ban on spankings?  Who's talking about that? 

[myntik1]

certain states have contemplated banning spanking your child

[SavannahLion]

However the 6yr old was out of control, hiding in the clothes rack (same thing I did at his age), lagging behind, and generally being a nuisance. He was leashed but apparently the child knew how to disengage the harness.

Gee, do you think the behaviour had anything to do with the fact that his parents were literally treating him like a dog?  Leashes are not for people.  They are for animals.  Every time I see some lazy parent walking their kid like a beagle I want to throw the parent down on the ground and play "why you hitting yourself" for an hour.

Nope, not at all. Let's watch you complain about leashes when your child decides to run out into a busy street. Yes, I've seen it. I was the truck that almost hit the little one. Took out a fence in the process. What was the mother doing? Five yards away trying to catch up.

Instead of throwing the parent down and beating them up, why not talk to the parents and the kid? Get an idea of why they got their kid on a tether. You'll be surprised at what you find.

Yeah, I know about products like what Shmokes mentioned. They're not always effective, especially in a noisy RF environment. They might've improved since I last looked though.

to set the record straight I care for my son more than I ever could have imagined.

For the government to ban spankings and such is wrong in my eyes. 

A government ban on spankings?  Who's talking about that? 

California.

Sometime last year or the year before, a parking lot security camera caught a woman placing (ie restraining) her child into the car seat then laying into him. The details are a little hazy, but I recall she punched the child, not spanked him. The child was very young, but I don't recall exactly how old. After the incident a San Francisco lawyer got stars in her eyes and tried to pass an anti-spanking law.

It was essentially a load of ---Cleveland steamer---. The law attempted to ban all spanking, period, for anyone under the age of the three. Clearly, anyone with half a brain who saw that video knew that what the mother did crossed way over the line of spanking and into the realm of a beating. Something existing law already addressed. I don't know what ever came of the mother, child or the law but I assume the law never passed and Child Welfare took the child away.

As far as I know, Texas was the only other state considering a similar ban. Don't know what ever came of that either.

[shmokes]

Heh . . . when I said, "Who's talking . . . ," I didn't mean who in the entire world.  I meant who in this conversation.  It was my subtle way of identifying a straw man.

[shardian]

Putting a child on a harness = treating them like a dog? That is so ---smurfing--- stupid and closed minded, I don't even know where to begin.

When my little girl does something clever and I say "Good girl!", am I treating her like a dog then too?

I plan on using a harness in crowded places when my girl starts toddling around full blast. I tend to get distracted, and I don't want to be the person running around screaming "Where's my baby".

[ChadTower]

Putting a child on a harness = treating them like a dog? That is so ---smurfing--- stupid and closed minded, I don't even know where to begin.

Children are people.  Leashes are for animals.  Plain and simple. 

I plan on using a harness in crowded places when my girl starts toddling around full blast. I tend to get distracted, and I don't want to be the person running around screaming "Where's my baby".

Your distraction is your shortfall, not your daughter's, and she shouldn't have to pay for it.  If you fear you can't watch your child closely enough then do better.  Improve.  If you don't want to lose your baby then just don't lose your baby.  It is very easy to manage. 

Pretty much the only situation I could see doing that in is when there are just too many kids to manage.  Even a day care center, though, when walking kids down a sidewalk, will have a rope that the kids are grabbing.  They aren't in a harness.

[shardian]

I guess I should also take down my safety gate down off the stairs too then. How dare I limit where she can go. Oh, and I should never put her in a playpen - people might suspect I am "putting her in a kennel". I guess bowls are off limits for her to eat out of too, because dogs eat out of bowls. Crawling is absolutely gonna be nipped in the bud. Don't want her on all fours - people might think she is a dog!

[ChadTower]

There is a difference between safety issues in the home and convenience issues in public.  A leash is a simple convenience issue.  It's for parents who aren't going to commit to watching the child properly.  Hold the kid's hand, not the kid's leash.  When we had kids I put a good amount of thought into the leash concept because I knew a few people who had done it.  I couldn't ever come up with a single reason it was anything other than pure convenience to the parent.

[shardian]

Of course it is a convenience. When you are walking for long periods either carrying the child, or hunching over told hold hands, that can get pretty darn old. With a HARNESS, the wife and me get a break, and she can keep walking her little Energizer bunny butt off.

I think this arguement is gonna end in a stalemate. You think of kids as dogs, and I don't. I think that sums it up.

[Ed_McCarron]

We lost (temporarily) our 4 YO at Disney World a few weeks ago.  2 long hours later, when everyone was done crying and we had thanked park security, he asked to have his 'leash' put on.  We hadn't used it in at least a year.

Tell ya what.  I won't judge your choices if you don't judge mine.

[ChadTower]

Oh it will absolutely end in a stalemate - I don't expect to change anyone's decision.  I don't think of children as dogs.  Duh.  The fact that shardian is making irrational statements like that is only displaying his insecurity on the topic.  I think of creatures on leashes as animals - because leashes are for animals.  While the parent is looking at something on a shelf, and not eyeballing the toddler, how do you know she hasn't picked a sharp piece of metal off the floor and eaten it? 

Ed, Disney is a bit of a different story.  How often do you walk kids through a place with 500,000 people crammed into a space designed for 250,000?  Now you're talking extremes.  I bet if you walked them down the yellow line on your street a leash would be useful too.  It's not necessary at the mall (which is where I seem to see most of them).  I took my kids to Disney a couple of years ago.  No leashes - we held their hands pretty much the whole time.  Disney is one place where I wouldn't really begrudge someone that decision though I still wouldn't make it myself.  That place is just too easy for a kid to get bumped away from parents and crowd streamed out of their control.


Jim, if the child is disabled, that's even more reason to pay closer attention to them than just putting them on a leash.

[shardian]

I had something typed up, but I decided I am done with this.

I like you Chad, but I think your hard-line, black and white view of the subject is wrong. You can't insinuate that people treat their children as dogs and not expect them to get pissed off.

[ClubNinja]

Whenever we go somewhere, I just leave my little dude in the car with a window cracked and the radio on. 

[Malenko]

I was taught when reason fails force prevails.

In my youth a was a pretty good kid, when I tested my limits I was spoken to sternly, when I did it again I got spanked.  My punishment never exceeded my misdoings.

My sisters both have FOUR kids. Carrie's kids arent that well behaved but shes a heavy spanker, her 3rd kid is the best behaved because hes around me the most. When he acts up I talk to him, tell him what hes doing is wrong, and he genuinely seems to understand even at 4 yrs old.

My other Sister Beth has 4, and her Oldest 2 are prolly the very best behaved kids Ive ever met, mostly due to the fact my mom raised them for the first few years of their life. her 3rd is a baby and doesnt apply, the 4th is her husbands from another marriage and I dont know how she was raised.


I guess my point is theres nothing wrong with a smack to the butt when its needed, but only when its needed.

[CCM]

I don't have kids, but sometimes when I'm walking the trails at our local park I let me dog off his leash and he walks right beside me.  So, is it wrong that I am treating my dog like a child?

[Dartful Dodger]

If you don't want to lose your baby then just don't lose your baby.  It is very easy to manage. 

Doesn't the harness solve this problem?

Seat belts tie people down like luggage.

Parents who force their kids to wear seatbelts are too lazy to watch the road.  If you can’t drive and watch out for every obstacle on the road then you shouldn’t be driving.

[SithMaster]

 Leashes are not for people.  They are for animals.  Every time I see some lazy parent walking their kid like a beagle I want to throw the parent down on the ground and play "why you hitting yourself" for an hour.

Chad . . . I saw an awesome product for people (like me) who think putting a kid on a leash is just fundamentally wrong, but are still worried about the whole, turn your head and they're gone scenario.  It's a proximity alarm that can be set to a couple of different distance settings.  It's basically two keychains.  Clip one to your kid and if he goes out of range (I seem to remember the settings were like 10 and 35 feet) your device beeps at you, letting you know that you're kid is wandering off.  I think that would be awesome (though I really wish it had something more like a 100 ft setting -- that would be a lot more useful somewhere like a public park).  It was super expensive, though.  Like $160.  But I'm sure there's no reason for it to be expensive once there's more competition in the market with devices like that.  For $160 the devices could be using GPS and 2-way radios to communicate relative positions (outdoors anyway).

edit: spelling

Or modify the invisible fence system.

If you don't want to lose your baby then just don't lose your baby.  It is very easy to manage. 

Doesn't the harness solve this problem?

Seat belts tie people down like luggage.

Parents who force their kids to wear seatbelts are too lazy to watch the road.  If you can’t drive and watch out for every obstacle on the road then you shouldn’t be driving.

Um no.  If a drunk driver hits your car then it wasn't because you were lazy.  When you drive a car you have to expect the others on the road to drive somewhat safely.

Whenever we go somewhere, I just leave my little dude in the car with a window cracked and the radio on. 

What station?

I had something typed up, but I decided I am done with this.

I like you Chad, but I think your hard-line, black and white view of the subject is wrong. You can't insinuate that people treat their children as dogs and not expect them to get pissed off.

He wants a divorce and he is taking the kids, lol.

What if pitbulls are involved?

[shmokes]

I guess my point is theres nothing wrong with a smack to the butt when its needed, but only when its needed.

Whatever that means.

[Dartful Dodger]

Um no.  If a drunk driver hits your car then it wasn't because you were lazy.  When you drive a car you have to expect the others on the road to drive somewhat safely.

LEET!

That's my point.  If a pedophile wants your kid, or some drunk with a cart hits your kid it's not because you were too lazy to see it.  There are things you can do to protect your kid, the harness is one of them.

[ClubNinja]

Whenever we go somewhere, I just leave my little dude in the car with a window cracked and the radio on. 

What station?

WBCN in Boston, usually.  Thanks for asking.

[Jdurg]

Have you ever walked around Manhattan or Philadelphia, or Detroit?  Those are cities where there are a LOT of people crowded into a small area, and a lot of traffic on the roads.  There is nothing wrong there with having a "leash" for a child, especially if you are shopping for items and have to hold the item in your hands while at the same time holding the child. 

Also, don't give me the "you shouldn't bring your child with you if you can't hang on to them".  Some people have to work very long hours in order to provide a source of income for their family.  In MANY cases, the only time the parent(s) can get out to go shopping for items is when they can't find anyone to watch their child.

[Ed_McCarron]

What if pitbulls are involved?

    I didn't have the heart to make the Tommy comment...

[SithMaster]

Um no.  If a drunk driver hits your car then it wasn't because you were lazy.  When you drive a car you have to expect the others on the road to drive somewhat safely.

LEET!

That's my point.  If a pedophile wants your kid, or some drunk with a cart hits your kid it's not because you were too lazy to see it.  There are things you can do to protect your kid, the harness is one of them.

You know what, I'm going to say it's okay for parents to choose to use a leash/tether.  Since I don't have kids I have no perspective from their side and it seems to work for dogs (at least the ones that don't extend).  It still seems a little demeaning.  Although the need for leashes is interesting since I don't believe they were used on children a few decades ago.  Anyone have any info on that?

Whenever we go somewhere, I just leave my little dude in the car with a window cracked and the radio on. 

What station?

WBCN in Boston, usually.  Thanks for asking.

You are welcome.

[Malenko]

I guess my point is theres nothing wrong with a smack to the butt when its needed, but only when its needed.

Yeah, but you're the guy that lets toddlers play Mortal Kombat 

8 and 10 yr old play UMK3 without blood, they were well behaved enough to play and they dont emulate the actions on screen. Don't confuse their maturity with their ages. Playing on my arcade machines is reward for them behaving and doing well in school.

[Ed_McCarron]

Although the need for leashes is interesting since I don't believe they were used on children a few decades ago.  Anyone have any info on that?

Anecdotal; My mother claims her mother made her wear one in the 40's.

[Jdurg]

Then again, a leash attached to the neck of the child is pretty demeaning.  A leash attached to the child's wrist isn't bad at all.

[AtomSmasher]

I have no idea how accurate it is, but at the end of the movie O' Brother Where Art Thou, which was supposed to take place in the 1930's, as they're walking down the street they have a rope tied around the waist of their youngest daughter.

[shmokes]

I plan on using a harness in crowded places when my girl starts toddling around full blast. I tend to get distracted, and I don't want to be the person running around screaming "Where's my baby".

Considering the original topic, and the healthy dose of righteous indignation I'm seeing here, is there any chance I could interest you in a shock collar? Why not kill two birds with one stone?  It ain't gonna leave a mark.

[SavannahLion]

Since I don't have kids I have no perspective from their side and it seems to work for dogs (at least the ones that don't extend).  It still seems a little demeaning.  Although the need for leashes is interesting since I don't believe they were used on children a few decades ago.  Anyone have any info on that?

To begin with, they've been used in various forms for as far back as I can remember. I don't recall them being commercialized up until about ten or twenty years ago.

Irregardless of whether they were used a decade ago, that kind of thinking is dead end. Thirty years ago, car seats weren't even an option. Babies would be held in someones lap then eventually relegated to a seat like the one below if they were fortunate. Leashes are no different. It affords parents a greater variety of child caring options than before. Especially at a time when there are a growing number of families that don't enjoy child rearing support from friends and family members.

At this point, I'm going to cut out on this conversation. Astonishingly lame comments by Shmokes (shock collars?) and Jdurg (leash attached to the neck?) make such a discussion not even worth my time. I'll just make this final parting note, I'll take peoples advice into consideration, but never ever tell me that what I'm doing is wrong. Rather than telling people what they can't do with their children and interfering, get off the self righteous horse and advise and educate parents on child rearing techniques. Better yet, how about offering to baby sit once in a while? You'll get much better results than following Chadtowers asinine reaction to beating a parent up.

Sorry guys, enough is enough. Have fun.

[shmokes]

 

Don't ever tell you that what you're doing is wrong?  I think it's wrong to spank children.  To a lesser degree, I think it's wrong to put your kid on a leash.  What do you want me to say?  "I wonder Savannah, query whether superior alternatives to child leashes exist . . . "  Don't be such a Sensitive Sally.  And learn to smile a little.  The shock collar was obviously not a serious suggestion.  It was a jab at whoever said that physical punishments become abuse when they start leaving marks.  It was plugging the premises into a syllogism to show the absurd conclusion they lead to (and hence the unsoundness of at least one of the premises):

Putting kids on leashes is okay.
Using physical punishments to control behavior is okay so long as they don't leave marks.
Shock collars may be used with leashes to control behavior.
Shock collars do not leave marks.
Therefore, using shock collars on Children is an acceptable behavior modification technique.

 

[Ed_McCarron]

I plan on using a harness in crowded places when my girl starts toddling around full blast. I tend to get distracted, and I don't want to be the person running around screaming "Where's my baby".

Considering the original topic, and the healthy dose of righteous indignation I'm seeing here, is there any chance I could interest you in a shock collar? Why not kill two birds with one stone?  It ain't gonna leave a mark.

Trust me, the thought has crossed my mind.

Oh, wait, you mean for a kid?  I thought you were volunteering.

[FrizzleFried]

 (discipline is one thing, beating is another).

It's a matter of degree.  Articulate for me the difference between discipline and beating.  Any adult who will do violence to children is an idiot.  Some are just bigger idiots than others.

People discipline their children in different ways.  To equate a simple "spanking" on the bottom with something like this is ---smurfing--- asinine.  Way to go Shmokes...

[Dartful Dodger]

How many times will a kid purposely touched a hot stove?

My guess would be 1.

Pain as punishment works.  Life is full of other examples.

[shmokes]

How many times will a kid get into your tools if you give him a couple black eyes with a wrench? 

My guess would be 1. 

Ends don't justify means.  Life is full of other examples.

[Dartful Dodger]

How many times will a kid get into your tools after you give him a time out.

My guess is until child services takes him away from you because he accidentally drilled a hole through his sister's skull.

[shmokes]

Good point.  The wrench it is.

[TelcoLou]

Just wondering something;

What's to be done with a child who repeatedly defies all forms of authority; parents, teachers, relatives, and other adults?

I remember more than one case where the police were called to deal with a disruptive child and wound up using a taser to get them under control. 

I've personally been in situations where a child actually dared me to hit them after scolding them for damaging my property, threatening a law suit or jail, then confronting their parents about it only to hear choruses of "what do you want ME to do about it?"

[Jdurg]

Astonishingly lame comments by Shmokes (shock collars?) and Jdurg (leash attached to the neck?) make such a discussion not even worth my time.

I think you may have mis-read or mis-interpreted my statement.     I wasn't stating that you should attach a leash to a kid and place it around his/her neck.  I was stating that when I see parents who do that it does kind of make me question them.  I have no problem with the parents who have a "leash" that's attached to a bracelet worn around a kid's wrist.  I see nothing wrong with that.

I currently have no children, but when I do have a child I will discipline them how I see fit.  If someone wants to come up to me and say "You're beating your children" if I decide to spank them for misbehaving, then they have every right to.  However, I will quickly show them what a "beating" is by beating the living snot out of that person.