What a horrible thing to do to a child.

[ark_ader]

What's wrong with this world?
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/08/toddler.beater.ap/index.html

[SavannahLion]

Damn, what a bad score.

A child dies as a result of very lose ties to the video game industry. Then a  sucker like Jack Thompson will get wind of it and use her tragedy as an attempt to leverage another blow to video games. A political maneuvering her death doesn't need.

What gets me about it is the guy who beat her is 26 years old, probably beat her after she stepped in front of the TV during a game session, and the 19 year old mother did nothing to stop the beating. What the ---fudgesicle--- was she doing? Painting her fingernails?

[Singapura]

Although off course I see the suggestive connection CNN wants to make by mentioning a "video game controller" there really is no connection between this murder and video games. If she was beaten to death with an waffle iron, would that mean that there's a connection between eating waffles and violence? Even if the videogame was the reason (she stepped in front or whatever) it could have been a game of Pinata  . Media have their own agenda we as video game enthousiasts shouldn't bite the bait.

[havic626]

very sad........did you guys ever hear a while back about the guy who beat his toddler to death after he tripped over the power cord on the xbox and shut off his game?  Its sad to see what some people to kids, in my opinion i think the worst crimes are doing harm to children (discipline is one thing, beating is another).  I have 3 little ones of my own and i would end the person who would do harm to my kids, i do wonder what the mother was doing while this happend, god forbid if she just stood there and did nothing.

[shmokes]

 (discipline is one thing, beating is another). 

It's a matter of degree.  Articulate for me the difference between discipline and beating.  Any adult who will do violence to children is an idiot.  Some are just bigger idiots than others.

[mpm32]

She did stand by and do nothing because this wasn't the first time the kid was beaten.

[Ed_McCarron]

Articulate for me the difference between discipline and beating.

Discipline:  A quick swat on a diapered rear when a toddler walks into the street.
Beating:  Multiple hits, often on unprotected skin, that leave marks.

Works for me.

[ChadTower]

What gets me about it is the guy who beat her is 26 years old, probably beat her after she stepped in front of the TV during a game session, and the 19 year old mother did nothing to stop the beating. What the ---fudgesicle--- was she doing? Painting her fingernails?

Ever been in a house like that?  The mom probably couldn't have stopped him if she tried.  Sure, she absolutely should have tried - I would expect that of any mother.  She probably wouldn't succeed, though, and would end up beaten to crap along with the baby.  Guys like that aren't going to stop beating the kid just because mommy came in the room and yelled at him.  Bad mother, absolutely, for not trying or at least calling the cops, but it's not nearly as simple as the mother just sitting there acquiescent about it.

[ChadTower]

I agree with Ed.  Discipline is once or twice.  Beating is going past that.  There are levels beyond beating, too.  I have some memories I can still see when I close my eyes 25 years later.

[shardian]

I'd probably be better behaved if I had been beaten more as a child.

 

"beating" doesn't make you better behaved. It makes you harbor deep seeded resentment, anger, fear, etc. I had my share of severe butt whippings with a belt, hand, hair brush - but I don't feel I was ever "beaten". Did those severe butt whippings accomplish anything? Hell no. All I learned was that I could do whatever the hell I wanted, and all it would cost me is a quick butt whipping once a month or so. Well worth the price in my young mind.

Now my younger cousins, they are beaten. A day don't go by that they aren't smacked, whipped, threatened, etc. It is sad to see kids who intentionally do things wrong, just because they know that is the only time the parent actually pays attention to them - by hitting and yelling of course.If you spank or smack your kid that often, you are most definitely beating your kid. If you crack out the belt once every blue moon or so, you are disciplining your kid...but it doesn't really accomplish anything.

[myntik1]

Here's the difference for me. When I was a kid one day me and a couple of kids started throwing snowballs at cars on a busy street. Pops caught wind of it and I got a couple of smacks on the backside.  I can only remember a few occassions when hands were placed against my rump, and the ones I recall all had something to do with me doing something I shouldn't have done EVER.  I was never hit because my dad was mad at his boss, or I interrupted a game, etc.  And the fear of getting one coupled with the disappointment ny parents would have if i got busted doing something stupid kept me in line.  To me one is discipline (tough love to a small degree) and the other is abuse.  Now that I'm a father I hope I never have to spank my son.  I would hope that the fear of a spanking is enough to keep him in line until he firmly knows what's right and wrong.

[AtomSmasher]

If you crack out the belt once every blue moon or so, you are disciplining your kid...but it doesn't really accomplish anything.

I don't entirely agree because even though I was only spanked once in a blue moon, my parents used the threat of spanking to get me to quickly start behaving if I was acting up.  My dad called the belt the "hearing aid" because it helped us listen  

Something kind of funny, a few years ago I found an old school journal from probably around the first grade.  Each entry I was supposed to draw a picture, then write a sentence about it.  Most of the entries were standard kid stuff, I like my cat, I like to go hiking, etc. but one of the entries was I don't like to be spanked, and the picture was my dad as a big monster rearing up with a belt yelling "arg!" and me cowering in the corner saying "help me."  The kind of thing child services would be all over if it was done today.  Just to be clear, I only remember being spaking 3 or 4 times, but obviously this picture was drawn after one of those times.

[ChadTower]

My little brother did that in kindergarten.  Drew in class a picture of my mother with a large object in her hand and us running away from her.  The school did call her in - because he was covered with marks from an object just like the one he drew.  That was in the late 80s so schools have been doing that for a couple of decades now.

[AtomSmasher]

My little brother did that in kindergarten.  Drew in class a picture of my mother with a large object in her hand and us running away from her.  The school did call her in - because he was covered with marks from an object just like the one he drew.  That was in the late 80s so schools have been doing that for a couple of decades now.

I was born in 1980, so it was mid to late eighties for me as well.

[myntik1]

A belt shouldn't be the only form of discipline, but it should be in the tool box.  I honestly believe some of the crazy crimes and stunts people do today could have been prevented with some real discipline.  For years I taught at an alternative school for kids with "emotional and behavior" problems.  My heart went out to the kids with real issues that had to be resolved.  But a majority of those kids had a problem because mom or dad enabled them.  When I got punished as a kid is was straight lockdown.  The Atari, the handheld colecos, and the comic books were snatched up.  I had no tv in my room.  It was me, a bed, 4 walls and a ton of books.  Now parents are too scared to discipline their kids, and punishment is a joke because even my 7 yr old niece has a tv, dvd player and cell phone.  I had my orthopedic surgeon's son as a student years ago. One day he told me that he called social services on his dad because he took his quad away.  He knew his dad wasn't going to get in trouble he just wanted him to lose face in the community by having dss talk to his neighbors.  So if you have an unruly kid nowadays you medicate them.  Some doctor somewhere will diagnose them with ODD or ADHD.  Before I put anything besides Flintstone vitamins in my kid I'm going to see if a few swats on the backside might encourage him to behave. I am not promoting beatings or cruel or unusual punishment, but we're seeing what a generation of kids raised on timeouts is capable of doing.

[Ed_McCarron]

A belt shouldn't be the only form of discipline, but it should be in the tool box.

I don't think I'd even use a belt.  I've been hit with everything from shoes to tentpoles as a kid, and have never had to use anything more than an open hand on my son, who, is exactly like me.  Neither one of us has enough of an attention span to complete anythi

Oh, and occasionally, I flick his ear with an index finger.  That gets him to pay attention pretty quick.

[shmokes]

To me one is discipline (tough love to a small degree) and the other is abuse. 

This answer is a perfect example of why I asked you to articulate the difference between discipline and beating.  Do you see the problem with your answer? 

You can't base it it on something leaving a mark.  Marks can be meaningless.  My wife will get an enormous green bruise if she bumps her leg into a desk as she walks by.  You can punch me as hard as you can in the arm or leg and I won't bruise.  The biggest problem  with  this idea is it completely ignores that the psychological effects of abuse are far more damaging  than its physical effects in most cases.  And what about abuse that leaves no marks.  Is it not abuse when you have a single mom who tells her kid how ugly and stupid and worthless he is -- that it is the boy's fault that his father abandoned them, because he couldn't stand being around the kid?  Ed's suggestion that it boils down to whether the kid has a diaper on and is running in the street is completely unrealistic (what is this obsession with kids running in the street that spankers have?).  Are you really saying that spanking becomes abuse the day your kid becomes potty trained?  I don't think you really believe that.  And let's be honest, do you really think that children of parents who don't spank their kids are statistically more likely to get hit by a car?

the picture was my dad as a big monster rearing up with a belt yelling "arg!" and me cowering in the corner saying "help me." 

I think this illustrates the problem.  Kids have a very limited ability to suss out complex situations.  They can't put things into context.  They have no experience.  It's why scary movies ---fudgesicle--- with them so much.  If you ever had to deal with a bully in school, you can understand where that picture came from.  Except unlike a fellow third or fourth grader that happens to be bigger, he is faced with physical violence from someone at least five times his size.  And you can scoff all you want, and roll your eyes about my characterization of spanking as violence, but how else do you explain the drawing?  This is from someone who grew up and says that he was hardly ever even spanked.  Hell, Myntik1 said himself that he hopes that his kids will be good because they will be afraid of getting spanked.  I don't think your children should fear physical violence from someone five times their size.  It's fundamentally wrong. 

I think it's wrong to determine whether the means of hitting (or spanking if you insist on the euphemism) your kids is okay solely on the ends of whether you leave a bruise or a scar.  The scar that matters is psychological.

[Jdurg]

I grew up in a family where getting smacked was the punishment you could expect if you acted wrong or did something dangerous.  If I misbehaved, I'd get a quick smack on ---my bottom--- from my mother or father, get sent to my room, no videogames, no tv, no nothing.  Just sitting in my room doing homework or staring at a blank wall.  I knew that if I was a little ---tallywhacker--- or didn't behave like a respectful human being should, I would get an uncomfortable smack on my backside or my face, and be bored out of my mind for a good few days.

Today, kids have their cell-phones, DVD players, portable video game devices, televisions, etc. etc. and parents aren't willing to take away all of the entertainment sources the kids have.  Kids are learning that they have nothing to fear from their parents or guardians because they won't have anything taken away from them if they misbehave.  When there is no negative reinforcement, the kids learn to do whatever the hell they want.  It's sad really.  

[Jdurg]

Spanking is discipline if your intent for the spanking is to change the child's behavior and have them understand that what they did was wrong.  When I got spanked as a kid, immediately afterward my mother or father would ask "Do you know why you got spanked?" and I'd have to answer them honestly if I even hoped to see a television or video game in the next few days.

Spanking is abuse when there is no intent to change the child's behavior for his/her own benefit.  If the intent of the spanking is to relieve a parent's frustration or anger, or just to make the parent happy, that is abuse.

[Ed_McCarron]

You can punch me as hard as you can in the arm or leg and I won't bruise.

Is that a statement or an invitation?   

Honestly, just like with anything else, it all comes down to individual preference.  I won't tell you how to discipline your kids if you don't tell my how to discipline mine.

You do have kids, right?

[AtomSmasher]

the picture was my dad as a big monster rearing up with a belt yelling "arg!" and me cowering in the corner saying "help me." 

I think this illustrates the problem.  Kids have a very limited ability to suss out complex situations.  They can't put things into context.  They have no experience.  It's why scary movies ---fudgesicle--- with them so much.  If you ever had to deal with a bully in school, you can understand where that picture came from.  Except unlike a fellow third or fourth grader that happens to be bigger, he is faced with physical violence from someone at least five times his size.  And you can scoff all you want, and roll your eyes about my characterization of spanking as violence, but how else do you explain the drawing?  This is from someone who grew up and says that he was hardly ever even spanked.  Hell, Myntik1 said himself that he hopes that his kids will be good because they will be afraid of getting spanked.  I don't think your children should fear physical violence from someone five times their size.  It's fundamentally wrong. 

I think it's wrong to determine whether the means of hitting (or spanking if you insist on the euphemism) your kids is okay solely on the ends of whether you leave a bruise or a scar.  The scar that matters is psychological.

So you consider a kid being upset that he was punished a psychological scar?  I bet recently theres been a ton of kids drawing pictures about how they hate time outs and how mean their parents are for making them sit in the corner.  Its only an effective punishment if the child doesn't like it.  Just about everyone I know was spanked as a child.  As long as its only done on extreme occasions, it is an effect punishment without leaving psychological scars.

I don't think I'd even use a belt. 

It was more that the belt became the symbol for the punishment and not a way to increase the pain.  Instead of saying you will be spanked if you don't stop, it was "don't make me get the hearing aid".  My dad was a body builder when he was younger, so he easily could of inflicted massive damage with his bare hands if he wanted to.  Also, I remember being grounded in my room a lot more often then I remember being spanked, so it definately was just another tool in the toolbox.

[Dartful Dodger]

Discipline is once or twice.  Beating is going past that. 

It depends on whether or not he was playing online.

Disrupting online play would require more discipline.

[ChadTower]

Spanking is abuse when there is no intent to change the child's behavior for his/her own benefit.  If the intent of the spanking is to relieve a parent's frustration or anger, or just to make the parent happy, that is abuse.

I think that's the difference, too.  Looking back on my childhood that's pretty much how I view it.  There were times I got spanked that were disciplinary - and limited to the scope of what I did - that even then I didn't have a real problem with.  When it crossed the line to venting because of things that had nothing to do with me, yet I happened to have one coming that day so I was a convenient target, even at 5 years old I knew that wasn't fair.  When the scope of the punishment ended up exceeding what I did, and sometimes it far exceeded it, those were the days it happened.  The line between discipline and abuse had been crossed.

The psychological scar topic is a very valid one, too.  Those are the scars that never go away.  Proper discipline, within control, and within the scope of the infraction doesn't leave that type of scar.  Or maybe that's just my take on it when compared with the memories of worse incidents.

[myntik1]

this may or may not have anything to do with the topic

I'm old school in my thinking.  I shouldn't have to ask my son to do things multiple times.  I definitely growl, by afterwards i try to explain why I growled.  That's something my dad never did.  The other half often has to ask 3-4 times to get something done.  And her method of discipline is a timeout.  We even have a timeout bench for the little guy.  The last couple nights he's been down in the basement helping me put on vinyl molding and do other odds and ends.  He knows what he can touch and what he can't.  I can bring him anywhere and he'll behave. Doesn't matter if it's the museum, library, home depot, or toy store.  She can't take him anywhere.  He knows what the limits are and he tests them.  She thinks I'm stifling his creativity and his ability to express himself.  We run, laugh, giggle, and play with the best of them.  The difference is fear.  He can run away from mommy because she'll chase after him and give him a mild mannered warning.  Dad will growl.  He doesn't want to hear the growl, so he's better behaved when he's out with me. I guess I should say as well behaved as a 3yr old can be for any length of time.  It's the new age way of thinking.  If my son needs to be scared of me to keep him safe or in line then that's what I need to do.  I love the fact that my son wants to be with me all of the time, but at the end of the day we all have to follow rules and there is consuquences for our actions.  I would rather he learn some of the lessons he needs at home then expecting everyone to give him multiple chances.

[Dartful Dodger]

Kids are different.  I have two friends that have a boy and a girl.  One boy is out of control.  His parents try to discipline him, but it never takes.  It's like that part of his reasoning hasn't developed yet.  But his sister is fine and she'll listen and she even gets upset when she knows her brother did something wrong and is about to get punished.

The other set is the opposite.  Boy good, girl out of control.  Both sets have the boy as the oldest so it’s not a birth order thing either.

I won’t go with them to any store or place where they can touch or break anything, because they will.

If your kid can reason enough to know that time outs (or getting slapped) is bad then 90% of your battle is won.  But there are kids that can't, and it seems the discipline needs to go to the extremes for it to be effective.

Not condoning beating your kid to death, but I see two negatives that are going to come from this story.  Some people are going to rally to ban slapping and others will rally to ban video games.

[SavannahLion]

the picture was my dad as a big monster rearing up with a belt yelling "arg!" and me cowering in the corner saying "help me." 

I think this illustrates the problem.  Kids have a very limited ability to suss out complex situations.  They can't put things into context.  They have no experience.  It's why scary movies ---fudgesicle--- with them so much.  If you ever had to deal with a bully in school, you can understand where that picture came from.  Except unlike a fellow third or fourth grader that happens to be bigger, he is faced with physical violence from someone at least five times his size.  And you can scoff all you want, and roll your eyes about my characterization of spanking as violence, but how else do you explain the drawing?  This is from someone who grew up and says that he was hardly ever even spanked.  Hell, Myntik1 said himself that he hopes that his kids will be good because they will be afraid of getting spanked.  I don't think your children should fear physical violence from someone five times their size.  It's fundamentally wrong. 

I think it's wrong to determine whether the means of hitting (or spanking if you insist on the euphemism) your kids is okay solely on the ends of whether you leave a bruise or a scar.  The scar that matters is psychological.

Shmokes, am I reading that you're condoning the use of spanking, for any reason? Spanking is just a tool in a wider variety of tools leveraged in parenting. Spanking is not nor should be the primary form of punishment. You said it yourself, "Kids have a very limited ability to suss out complex situations." It works both ways, you simply can not reason out any complex situation with a child, especially in terms of behavior. For some children, even the simplest of reasonings in our mind is not simple enough for them. Situations can and do arise where spanking is appropriate and for that particular situation, is the only form of reasoning a child will understand.

myntik1 pretty much hit the point. The child runs away from Mommy because he knows he can get away with it.

There are times when the only thing a child will understand is a swat to the bottom. When I was a child, I used to run and play inside the clothing racks in department stores. As an adult, I know now that this was a phenomenally stupid thing to do. Yet, I did it because I knew that I could get away with it... with Mommy. With Daddy, well... it was a different story. Many years later, I was in huge mall where I witnessed a mother with three children (a baby, a ~2yr old and a ~6yr old). The 2yr old was well behaved and did everything the mother asked her to do. However the 6yr old was out of control, hiding in the clothes rack (same thing I did at his age), lagging behind, and generally being a nuisance. He was leashed but apparently the child knew how to disengage the harness. When I saw this kid moving amongst clothes racks, I commented about it to my GF at the time and hoped the child would stay lucky.

The child was not fortunate. About fifteen or thirty minutes later the mother was running through the mall with her two remaining children looking for the eldest. In short time the mall called out a Code Adam and went into lock down. When I eventually came home, it was on the local news. AFAIK, the child is still missing. There is no doubt in my mind that a good spanking would have helped put this child on better behavior in the mall.

Any psychological impact from occassional spanking when the situation calls for it is a very small price to pay in exchange for keeping the child alive and safe. This is something every parent should carefully weigh and consider.

At the time I was kid, I detested my spankings. I fought with my parents over the spankings and I've even run and hid in the woods when I knew I was getting a spanking. And yet, in retrospect, I knew my parents did not spank me for the things that even I thought I should've been spanked for. Nor did my parents spank me nearly as often as any of my friends parents at the time.

[Dartful Dodger]

myntik1 pretty much hit the point. The child runs away from Mommy because he knows he can get away with it.

...or is it because the child knows Mommy loves him enough to find him.

[ark_ader]

I'd probably be better behaved if I had been beaten more as a child.

 

That's putting it mildly. 

[SavannahLion]

myntik1 pretty much hit the point. The child runs away from Mommy because he knows he can get away with it.

...or is it because the child knows Mommy loves him enough to find him.

So you're saying that myntik1 hates his kid?

[ark_ader]

the picture was my dad as a big monster rearing up with a belt yelling "arg!" and me cowering in the corner saying "help me." 

I think this illustrates the problem.  Kids have a very limited ability to suss out complex situations.  They can't put things into context.  They have no experience.  It's why scary movies ---fudgesicle--- with them so much.  If you ever had to deal with a bully in school, you can understand where that picture came from.  Except unlike a fellow third or fourth grader that happens to be bigger, he is faced with physical violence from someone at least five times his size.  And you can scoff all you want, and roll your eyes about my characterization of spanking as violence, but how else do you explain the drawing?  This is from someone who grew up and says that he was hardly ever even spanked.  Hell, Myntik1 said himself that he hopes that his kids will be good because they will be afraid of getting spanked.  I don't think your children should fear physical violence from someone five times their size.  It's fundamentally wrong. 

I think it's wrong to determine whether the means of hitting (or spanking if you insist on the euphemism) your kids is okay solely on the ends of whether you leave a bruise or a scar.  The scar that matters is psychological.

Shmokes, am I reading that you're condoning the use of spanking, for any reason? Spanking is just a tool in a wider variety of tools leveraged in parenting. Spanking is not nor should be the primary form of punishment. You said it yourself, "Kids have a very limited ability to suss out complex situations." It works both ways, you simply can not reason out any complex situation with a child, especially in terms of behavior. For some children, even the simplest of reasonings in our mind is not simple enough for them. Situations can and do arise where spanking is appropriate and for that particular situation, is the only form of reasoning a child will understand.

myntik1 pretty much hit the point. The child runs away from Mommy because he knows he can get away with it.

There are times when the only thing a child will understand is a swat to the bottom. When I was a child, I used to run and play inside the clothing racks in department stores. As an adult, I know now that this was a phenomenally stupid thing to do. Yet, I did it because I knew that I could get away with it... with Mommy. With Daddy, well... it was a different story. Many years later, I was in huge mall where I witnessed a mother with three children (a baby, a ~2yr old and a ~6yr old). The 2yr old was well behaved and did everything the mother asked her to do. However the 6yr old was out of control, hiding in the clothes rack (same thing I did at his age), lagging behind, and generally being a nuisance. He was leashed but apparently the child knew how to disengage the harness. When I saw this kid moving amongst clothes racks, I commented about it to my GF at the time and hoped the child would stay lucky.

The child was not fortunate. About fifteen or thirty minutes later the mother was running through the mall with her two remaining children looking for the eldest. In short time the mall called out a Code Adam and went into lock down. When I eventually came home, it was on the local news. AFAIK, the child is still missing. There is no doubt in my mind that a good spanking would have helped put this child on better behavior in the mall.

Any psychological impact from occassional spanking when the situation calls for it is a very small price to pay in exchange for keeping the child alive and safe. This is something every parent should carefully weigh and consider.

At the time I was kid, I detested my spankings. I fought with my parents over the spankings and I've even run and hid in the woods when I knew I was getting a spanking. And yet, in retrospect, I knew my parents did not spank me for the things that even I thought I should've been spanked for. Nor did my parents spank me nearly as often as any of my friends parents at the time.

Thats nothing.  When I was 8 and 9 yearsold I went to school in the UK where the teachers and headmaster would lay into me at the slightest drop of a hat.  I went to Freckleton C of E and I was abused by the whole school because an American bomber crashed into a school full of children.  Being American at that school wasn't a good idea. As I found out.

http://www2.blackpooltoday.co.uk/slideshows/freckleton/

Makes the movie SCUM and Pink Floyd The Wall look like Disneyland.

I wouldn't say at times I didn't deserve a good whack, but when you are a child alone, the monsters do not go away if you close your eyes.  Your parents do not understand, and you learn to watch who your friends are.

I still have the physical scars from the cane beatings and two broken fingers from the metal tipped cane the headmaster liked to inflict on you with.   

I tell people how I got them.  They don't believe me to this day.   

It made me a better person though, and I understand how abused people find it difficult to form relationships and to be more caring.

[ChadTower]

However the 6yr old was out of control, hiding in the clothes rack (same thing I did at his age), lagging behind, and generally being a nuisance. He was leashed but apparently the child knew how to disengage the harness.

Gee, do you think the behaviour had anything to do with the fact that his parents were literally treating him like a dog?  Leashes are not for people.  They are for animals.  Every time I see some lazy parent walking their kid like a beagle I want to throw the parent down on the ground and play "why you hitting yourself" for an hour.

[Level42]

A recent law here forbids parents (or anyone else) to hit a child in any way or form.

My kid is the kind that can be handled without needing too much correction. There have been maybe one or two times where I had to act seriously ....  I remember when my dad had that certain look (wide open eyes) I was scared enough and it usualy works very well on my son too.

Of course it's not the "perfect" kid (I'd be pretty worried if my kid wasn't trying out his limits !), but I see a lot of parents around me having a lot more trouble than we do.

Chad are you seriously saying people have kids on leashes over there ? 

[shmokes]

It's such a load of nonsense.  Parents who spank do not have better behaved kids than parents who don't.  Christ, even those of you advocating spanking, in your own anecdotes, almost always have one nightmare kid and one perfectly behaved kid.  How do you explain that?  They spank the good kid and use timeouts with the other?  This is not a question of keeping your kids in line.  People who don't spank are every bit as able to keep their kids in line as those who do.  My brother has two daughters (11 and 13) who are the best behaved kids I've ever seen (and always have been), and they've never been spanked in their lives.  They are also the most talented kids I've ever seen, one in sports, the other in art and music.  Does that prove that spanking makes kids behave badly?  No, of course not.  It just as likely means that my brother is just lucky.  More probable than that is that their kids are well behaved (and extremely talented) because their parents give them a great deal of love and attention, and the kids would likely be similarly well-behaved if my brother and his wife used spankings as punishment.  They'd just grow up with a less healthy relationship with their parents, and would learn as a fundamental principle of life that it's okay to use violence or the threat of violence to control the behavior of people who are weaker than you. 

Hell . . . my wife has never been spanked in her life, and she's a million times better than me.  She's never been in trouble in her life.  She gets mad at me when I make a U-turn where it's not legal, even if it's 3 in the morning and the streets are deserted. 

[RTSDaddy2]

It's such a load of nonsense.  Parents who spank do not have better behaved kids than parents who don't. 

I'm frightened....it seems that recently every day that passes  I find more and more I agree with shmokes on.   

Seriously though, I agree.  I believe in spanking, my wife doesn't....so sometimes spanking works when nothing else will as an attention getter,  my kid has also learned to behave just fine thank you, without it as well.   We use a point system primarily and she knows she gets a movie with a parent of her choice once a week based on how good she is.  When she gets too old for that, we'll find something else she likes.

She's a great kid, and I bet in the five 1/2 years of her life I've swatted her three times on her bottom and said "No."  You've just got to go with what works....and while a swat on the bottom (to my way of thinking) ain't never hurt nobody for long, BEATINGS do no good at all.

edit: and while I'm at it, let's turn this kid's murderer  loose in a room with some of Vick's pit bulls...see if there's anything of him left to even have to worry about prosecuting.  Maybe lather him up good with Jim Dandy first.  Yeah, you're damn right I've got no sympathy for his sorry behind.

[SithMaster]

Today, kids have their cell-phones, DVD players, portable video game devices, televisions, etc. etc. and parents aren't willing to take away all of the entertainment sources the kids have.  Kids are learning that they have nothing to fear from their parents or guardians because they won't have anything taken away from them if they misbehave.  When there is no negative reinforcement, the kids learn to do whatever the hell they want.  It's sad really.   

Im really surprised no one has mentioned that girl that was beaten by her "friends."  It seems like parents don't really care about their kids.  They just scoffed at the idea of punishment and I really hope they get treated as adults so jail time is handed out.  While beating as a punishment is wrong I think in some cases (see above) deserve such a punishment.  Being a parent isn't easy, but when I see the kids from my town acting like idiots or those on television for doing something stupid (basically the youtube and myspace whores) it makes the case that there are many parents who should have never had kids.  Then you have this f'd you generation going on to raise another generation of f'd up kids.  Maybe parents should beat their kids.  Or read parenting books.  One of those two extremes.

However the 6yr old was out of control, hiding in the clothes rack (same thing I did at his age), lagging behind, and generally being a nuisance. He was leashed but apparently the child knew how to disengage the harness.

Gee, do you think the behaviour had anything to do with the fact that his parents were literally treating him like a dog?  Leashes are not for people.  They are for animals.  Every time I see some lazy parent walking their kid like a beagle I want to throw the parent down on the ground and play "why you hitting yourself" for an hour.

But Chad wouldn't that be like beating a child?  A really big child.

It's such a load of nonsense.  Parents who spank do not have better behaved kids than parents who don't. 

I'm frightened....it seems that recently every day that passes  I find more and more I agree with shmokes on.   

Seriously though, I agree.  I believe in spanking, my wife doesn't....so sometimes spanking works when nothing else will as an attention getter,  my kid has also learned to behave just fine thank you, without it as well.   We use a point system primarily and she knows she gets a movie with a parent of her choice once a week based on how good she is.  When she gets too old for that, we'll find something else she likes.

She's a great kid, and I bet in the five 1/2 years of her life I've swatted her three times on her bottom and said "No."  You've just got to go with what works....and while a swat on the bottom (to my way of thinking) ain't never hurt nobody for long, BEATINGS do no good at all.

edit: and while I'm at it, let's turn this kid's murderer  loose in a room with some of Vick's pit bulls...see if there's anything of him left to even have to worry about prosecuting.  Maybe lather him up good with Jim Dandy first.  Yeah, you're damn right I've got no sympathy for his sorry behind.

I'm glad you found something that works.  Just make sure she doesn't become materialistic too early in her life.

[ChadTower]

But Chad wouldn't that be like beating a child?  A really big child.

It would be picking on someone my own size.  Seems fair enough.

Level42 - yes, there are parents who actually put their kids on a damn leash and walk them around like pets, chest harness and all.  Makes me sick to watch.  Google "child leash".

I have a compromise for parents where the dad believes in spanking but the mom does not.  Tell mom to take one for the team - spank her instead.

[Jdurg]

Spanking should NEVER be the first course of action for punishment.  If you can avoid it, then do so.  There are just sometimes where a smack on the bottom or across the cheeks will get the point across.

[SithMaster]

But Chad wouldn't that be like beating a child?  A really big child.

It would be picking on someone my own size.  Seems fair enough.

Level42 - yes, there are parents who actually put their kids on a damn leash and walk them around like pets, chest harness and all.  Makes me sick to watch.  Google "child leash".

I have a compromise for parents where the dad believes in spanking but the mom does not.  Tell mom to take one for the team - spank her instead.

What if its a women who has the child on the leash?  I'm not saying it wouldn't be alright to hit her or have her hit herself (that would be sexist), but there are some people out there who might be against that sort of thing.

Spanking should NEVER be the first course of action for punishment.  If you can avoid it, then do so.  There are just sometimes where a smack on the bottom or across the cheeks will get the point across.

I concur, though I'm sure some people would think they were justified in doing so.  Take the article linked in the first post as an example.

[shmokes]

Spanking should NEVER be the first course of action for punishment.  If you can avoid it, then do so.  There are just sometimes where a smack on the bottom or across the cheeks will get the point across.

I can't think of any time when a smack on the bottom or across the cheeks will not get the point across.  But wouldn't you really be underlining it to clench your fist first?  I'm serious.  If your child is going to refrain from bad behavior because he's afraid of being spanked, don't you think he's really going to behave if he's afraid of having his lights knocked out?  I am talking about more than whether behavior can be controlled with spanking (and it appears we've now extended acceptable forms of physical punishments to slapping your kid across the face).

edit: heh . . . punctuation

[shmokes]

 Leashes are not for people.  They are for animals.  Every time I see some lazy parent walking their kid like a beagle I want to throw the parent down on the ground and play "why you hitting yourself" for an hour.

Chad . . . I saw an awesome product for people (like me) who think putting a kid on a leash is just fundamentally wrong, but are still worried about the whole, turn your head and they're gone scenario.  It's a proximity alarm that can be set to a couple of different distance settings.  It's basically two keychains.  Clip one to your kid and if he goes out of range (I seem to remember the settings were like 10 and 35 feet) your device beeps at you, letting you know that you're kid is wandering off.  I think that would be awesome (though I really wish it had something more like a 100 ft setting -- that would be a lot more useful somewhere like a public park).  It was super expensive, though.  Like $160.  But I'm sure there's no reason for it to be expensive once there's more competition in the market with devices like that.  For $160 the devices could be using GPS and 2-way radios to communicate relative positions (outdoors anyway).

edit: spelling

[myntik1]

to set the record straight I care for my son more than I ever could have imagined.

I don't think my little brother ever got swatted on the backside. for me I was a bit more precocious and needed some additional guidance. I know the difference.  For the government to ban spankings and such is wrong in my eyes.  You can't legislate good behavior, sometimes it needs a helping hand.

[Singapura]

Chad . . . I saw an awesome product for people (like me) who think putting a kid on a leash is just fundamentally wrong, but are still worried about the whole, turn your head and their gone scenario.  It's a proximity alarm that can be set to a couple of different distance settings.

Nice if you have four kids (or more). Then you can play that movie where the prisoners were going "poof" whenever they strayed to far from their "buddy". If forgot the title.

But seriously, I have one rule: you-should-not-hit-women-or-childeren-ever period. An (ex) good friend of mine started beating his wife and I called the cops on him. Once you start hitting you loose all credibility.

[shmokes]

to set the record straight I care for my son more than I ever could have imagined.

For the government to ban spankings and such is wrong in my eyes. 

A government ban on spankings?  Who's talking about that? 

[myntik1]

certain states have contemplated banning spanking your child

[SavannahLion]

However the 6yr old was out of control, hiding in the clothes rack (same thing I did at his age), lagging behind, and generally being a nuisance. He was leashed but apparently the child knew how to disengage the harness.

Gee, do you think the behaviour had anything to do with the fact that his parents were literally treating him like a dog?  Leashes are not for people.  They are for animals.  Every time I see some lazy parent walking their kid like a beagle I want to throw the parent down on the ground and play "why you hitting yourself" for an hour.

Nope, not at all. Let's watch you complain about leashes when your child decides to run out into a busy street. Yes, I've seen it. I was the truck that almost hit the little one. Took out a fence in the process. What was the mother doing? Five yards away trying to catch up.

Instead of throwing the parent down and beating them up, why not talk to the parents and the kid? Get an idea of why they got their kid on a tether. You'll be surprised at what you find.

Yeah, I know about products like what Shmokes mentioned. They're not always effective, especially in a noisy RF environment. They might've improved since I last looked though.

to set the record straight I care for my son more than I ever could have imagined.

For the government to ban spankings and such is wrong in my eyes. 

A government ban on spankings?  Who's talking about that? 

California.

Sometime last year or the year before, a parking lot security camera caught a woman placing (ie restraining) her child into the car seat then laying into him. The details are a little hazy, but I recall she punched the child, not spanked him. The child was very young, but I don't recall exactly how old. After the incident a San Francisco lawyer got stars in her eyes and tried to pass an anti-spanking law.

It was essentially a load of ---Cleveland steamer---. The law attempted to ban all spanking, period, for anyone under the age of the three. Clearly, anyone with half a brain who saw that video knew that what the mother did crossed way over the line of spanking and into the realm of a beating. Something existing law already addressed. I don't know what ever came of the mother, child or the law but I assume the law never passed and Child Welfare took the child away.

As far as I know, Texas was the only other state considering a similar ban. Don't know what ever came of that either.

[shmokes]

Heh . . . when I said, "Who's talking . . . ," I didn't mean who in the entire world.  I meant who in this conversation.  It was my subtle way of identifying a straw man.

[shardian]

Putting a child on a harness = treating them like a dog? That is so ---smurfing--- stupid and closed minded, I don't even know where to begin.

When my little girl does something clever and I say "Good girl!", am I treating her like a dog then too?

I plan on using a harness in crowded places when my girl starts toddling around full blast. I tend to get distracted, and I don't want to be the person running around screaming "Where's my baby".

[ChadTower]

Putting a child on a harness = treating them like a dog? That is so ---smurfing--- stupid and closed minded, I don't even know where to begin.

Children are people.  Leashes are for animals.  Plain and simple. 

I plan on using a harness in crowded places when my girl starts toddling around full blast. I tend to get distracted, and I don't want to be the person running around screaming "Where's my baby".

Your distraction is your shortfall, not your daughter's, and she shouldn't have to pay for it.  If you fear you can't watch your child closely enough then do better.  Improve.  If you don't want to lose your baby then just don't lose your baby.  It is very easy to manage. 

Pretty much the only situation I could see doing that in is when there are just too many kids to manage.  Even a day care center, though, when walking kids down a sidewalk, will have a rope that the kids are grabbing.  They aren't in a harness.

[shardian]

I guess I should also take down my safety gate down off the stairs too then. How dare I limit where she can go. Oh, and I should never put her in a playpen - people might suspect I am "putting her in a kennel". I guess bowls are off limits for her to eat out of too, because dogs eat out of bowls. Crawling is absolutely gonna be nipped in the bud. Don't want her on all fours - people might think she is a dog!

[ChadTower]

There is a difference between safety issues in the home and convenience issues in public.  A leash is a simple convenience issue.  It's for parents who aren't going to commit to watching the child properly.  Hold the kid's hand, not the kid's leash.  When we had kids I put a good amount of thought into the leash concept because I knew a few people who had done it.  I couldn't ever come up with a single reason it was anything other than pure convenience to the parent.

[shardian]

Of course it is a convenience. When you are walking for long periods either carrying the child, or hunching over told hold hands, that can get pretty darn old. With a HARNESS, the wife and me get a break, and she can keep walking her little Energizer bunny butt off.

I think this arguement is gonna end in a stalemate. You think of kids as dogs, and I don't. I think that sums it up.

[Ed_McCarron]

We lost (temporarily) our 4 YO at Disney World a few weeks ago.  2 long hours later, when everyone was done crying and we had thanked park security, he asked to have his 'leash' put on.  We hadn't used it in at least a year.

Tell ya what.  I won't judge your choices if you don't judge mine.

[ChadTower]

Oh it will absolutely end in a stalemate - I don't expect to change anyone's decision.  I don't think of children as dogs.  Duh.  The fact that shardian is making irrational statements like that is only displaying his insecurity on the topic.  I think of creatures on leashes as animals - because leashes are for animals.  While the parent is looking at something on a shelf, and not eyeballing the toddler, how do you know she hasn't picked a sharp piece of metal off the floor and eaten it? 

Ed, Disney is a bit of a different story.  How often do you walk kids through a place with 500,000 people crammed into a space designed for 250,000?  Now you're talking extremes.  I bet if you walked them down the yellow line on your street a leash would be useful too.  It's not necessary at the mall (which is where I seem to see most of them).  I took my kids to Disney a couple of years ago.  No leashes - we held their hands pretty much the whole time.  Disney is one place where I wouldn't really begrudge someone that decision though I still wouldn't make it myself.  That place is just too easy for a kid to get bumped away from parents and crowd streamed out of their control.


Jim, if the child is disabled, that's even more reason to pay closer attention to them than just putting them on a leash.

[shardian]

I had something typed up, but I decided I am done with this.

I like you Chad, but I think your hard-line, black and white view of the subject is wrong. You can't insinuate that people treat their children as dogs and not expect them to get pissed off.

[ClubNinja]

Whenever we go somewhere, I just leave my little dude in the car with a window cracked and the radio on. 

[Malenko]

I was taught when reason fails force prevails.

In my youth a was a pretty good kid, when I tested my limits I was spoken to sternly, when I did it again I got spanked.  My punishment never exceeded my misdoings.

My sisters both have FOUR kids. Carrie's kids arent that well behaved but shes a heavy spanker, her 3rd kid is the best behaved because hes around me the most. When he acts up I talk to him, tell him what hes doing is wrong, and he genuinely seems to understand even at 4 yrs old.

My other Sister Beth has 4, and her Oldest 2 are prolly the very best behaved kids Ive ever met, mostly due to the fact my mom raised them for the first few years of their life. her 3rd is a baby and doesnt apply, the 4th is her husbands from another marriage and I dont know how she was raised.


I guess my point is theres nothing wrong with a smack to the butt when its needed, but only when its needed.

[CCM]

I don't have kids, but sometimes when I'm walking the trails at our local park I let me dog off his leash and he walks right beside me.  So, is it wrong that I am treating my dog like a child?

[Dartful Dodger]

If you don't want to lose your baby then just don't lose your baby.  It is very easy to manage. 

Doesn't the harness solve this problem?

Seat belts tie people down like luggage.

Parents who force their kids to wear seatbelts are too lazy to watch the road.  If you can’t drive and watch out for every obstacle on the road then you shouldn’t be driving.

[SithMaster]

 Leashes are not for people.  They are for animals.  Every time I see some lazy parent walking their kid like a beagle I want to throw the parent down on the ground and play "why you hitting yourself" for an hour.

Chad . . . I saw an awesome product for people (like me) who think putting a kid on a leash is just fundamentally wrong, but are still worried about the whole, turn your head and they're gone scenario.  It's a proximity alarm that can be set to a couple of different distance settings.  It's basically two keychains.  Clip one to your kid and if he goes out of range (I seem to remember the settings were like 10 and 35 feet) your device beeps at you, letting you know that you're kid is wandering off.  I think that would be awesome (though I really wish it had something more like a 100 ft setting -- that would be a lot more useful somewhere like a public park).  It was super expensive, though.  Like $160.  But I'm sure there's no reason for it to be expensive once there's more competition in the market with devices like that.  For $160 the devices could be using GPS and 2-way radios to communicate relative positions (outdoors anyway).

edit: spelling

Or modify the invisible fence system.

If you don't want to lose your baby then just don't lose your baby.  It is very easy to manage. 

Doesn't the harness solve this problem?

Seat belts tie people down like luggage.

Parents who force their kids to wear seatbelts are too lazy to watch the road.  If you can’t drive and watch out for every obstacle on the road then you shouldn’t be driving.

Um no.  If a drunk driver hits your car then it wasn't because you were lazy.  When you drive a car you have to expect the others on the road to drive somewhat safely.

Whenever we go somewhere, I just leave my little dude in the car with a window cracked and the radio on. 

What station?

I had something typed up, but I decided I am done with this.

I like you Chad, but I think your hard-line, black and white view of the subject is wrong. You can't insinuate that people treat their children as dogs and not expect them to get pissed off.

He wants a divorce and he is taking the kids, lol.

What if pitbulls are involved?

[shmokes]

I guess my point is theres nothing wrong with a smack to the butt when its needed, but only when its needed.

Whatever that means.

[Dartful Dodger]

Um no.  If a drunk driver hits your car then it wasn't because you were lazy.  When you drive a car you have to expect the others on the road to drive somewhat safely.

LEET!

That's my point.  If a pedophile wants your kid, or some drunk with a cart hits your kid it's not because you were too lazy to see it.  There are things you can do to protect your kid, the harness is one of them.

[ClubNinja]

Whenever we go somewhere, I just leave my little dude in the car with a window cracked and the radio on. 

What station?

WBCN in Boston, usually.  Thanks for asking.

[Jdurg]

Have you ever walked around Manhattan or Philadelphia, or Detroit?  Those are cities where there are a LOT of people crowded into a small area, and a lot of traffic on the roads.  There is nothing wrong there with having a "leash" for a child, especially if you are shopping for items and have to hold the item in your hands while at the same time holding the child. 

Also, don't give me the "you shouldn't bring your child with you if you can't hang on to them".  Some people have to work very long hours in order to provide a source of income for their family.  In MANY cases, the only time the parent(s) can get out to go shopping for items is when they can't find anyone to watch their child.

[Ed_McCarron]

What if pitbulls are involved?

    I didn't have the heart to make the Tommy comment...

[SithMaster]

Um no.  If a drunk driver hits your car then it wasn't because you were lazy.  When you drive a car you have to expect the others on the road to drive somewhat safely.

LEET!

That's my point.  If a pedophile wants your kid, or some drunk with a cart hits your kid it's not because you were too lazy to see it.  There are things you can do to protect your kid, the harness is one of them.

You know what, I'm going to say it's okay for parents to choose to use a leash/tether.  Since I don't have kids I have no perspective from their side and it seems to work for dogs (at least the ones that don't extend).  It still seems a little demeaning.  Although the need for leashes is interesting since I don't believe they were used on children a few decades ago.  Anyone have any info on that?

Whenever we go somewhere, I just leave my little dude in the car with a window cracked and the radio on. 

What station?

WBCN in Boston, usually.  Thanks for asking.

You are welcome.

[Malenko]

I guess my point is theres nothing wrong with a smack to the butt when its needed, but only when its needed.

Yeah, but you're the guy that lets toddlers play Mortal Kombat 

8 and 10 yr old play UMK3 without blood, they were well behaved enough to play and they dont emulate the actions on screen. Don't confuse their maturity with their ages. Playing on my arcade machines is reward for them behaving and doing well in school.

[Ed_McCarron]

Although the need for leashes is interesting since I don't believe they were used on children a few decades ago.  Anyone have any info on that?

Anecdotal; My mother claims her mother made her wear one in the 40's.

[Jdurg]

Then again, a leash attached to the neck of the child is pretty demeaning.  A leash attached to the child's wrist isn't bad at all.

[AtomSmasher]

I have no idea how accurate it is, but at the end of the movie O' Brother Where Art Thou, which was supposed to take place in the 1930's, as they're walking down the street they have a rope tied around the waist of their youngest daughter.

[shmokes]

I plan on using a harness in crowded places when my girl starts toddling around full blast. I tend to get distracted, and I don't want to be the person running around screaming "Where's my baby".

Considering the original topic, and the healthy dose of righteous indignation I'm seeing here, is there any chance I could interest you in a shock collar? Why not kill two birds with one stone?  It ain't gonna leave a mark.

[SavannahLion]

Since I don't have kids I have no perspective from their side and it seems to work for dogs (at least the ones that don't extend).  It still seems a little demeaning.  Although the need for leashes is interesting since I don't believe they were used on children a few decades ago.  Anyone have any info on that?

To begin with, they've been used in various forms for as far back as I can remember. I don't recall them being commercialized up until about ten or twenty years ago.

Irregardless of whether they were used a decade ago, that kind of thinking is dead end. Thirty years ago, car seats weren't even an option. Babies would be held in someones lap then eventually relegated to a seat like the one below if they were fortunate. Leashes are no different. It affords parents a greater variety of child caring options than before. Especially at a time when there are a growing number of families that don't enjoy child rearing support from friends and family members.

At this point, I'm going to cut out on this conversation. Astonishingly lame comments by Shmokes (shock collars?) and Jdurg (leash attached to the neck?) make such a discussion not even worth my time. I'll just make this final parting note, I'll take peoples advice into consideration, but never ever tell me that what I'm doing is wrong. Rather than telling people what they can't do with their children and interfering, get off the self righteous horse and advise and educate parents on child rearing techniques. Better yet, how about offering to baby sit once in a while? You'll get much better results than following Chadtowers asinine reaction to beating a parent up.

Sorry guys, enough is enough. Have fun.

[shmokes]

 

Don't ever tell you that what you're doing is wrong?  I think it's wrong to spank children.  To a lesser degree, I think it's wrong to put your kid on a leash.  What do you want me to say?  "I wonder Savannah, query whether superior alternatives to child leashes exist . . . "  Don't be such a Sensitive Sally.  And learn to smile a little.  The shock collar was obviously not a serious suggestion.  It was a jab at whoever said that physical punishments become abuse when they start leaving marks.  It was plugging the premises into a syllogism to show the absurd conclusion they lead to (and hence the unsoundness of at least one of the premises):

Putting kids on leashes is okay.
Using physical punishments to control behavior is okay so long as they don't leave marks.
Shock collars may be used with leashes to control behavior.
Shock collars do not leave marks.
Therefore, using shock collars on Children is an acceptable behavior modification technique.

 

[Ed_McCarron]

I plan on using a harness in crowded places when my girl starts toddling around full blast. I tend to get distracted, and I don't want to be the person running around screaming "Where's my baby".

Considering the original topic, and the healthy dose of righteous indignation I'm seeing here, is there any chance I could interest you in a shock collar? Why not kill two birds with one stone?  It ain't gonna leave a mark.

Trust me, the thought has crossed my mind.

Oh, wait, you mean for a kid?  I thought you were volunteering.

[FrizzleFried]

 (discipline is one thing, beating is another).

It's a matter of degree.  Articulate for me the difference between discipline and beating.  Any adult who will do violence to children is an idiot.  Some are just bigger idiots than others.

People discipline their children in different ways.  To equate a simple "spanking" on the bottom with something like this is ---smurfing--- asinine.  Way to go Shmokes...

[Dartful Dodger]

How many times will a kid purposely touched a hot stove?

My guess would be 1.

Pain as punishment works.  Life is full of other examples.

[shmokes]

How many times will a kid get into your tools if you give him a couple black eyes with a wrench? 

My guess would be 1. 

Ends don't justify means.  Life is full of other examples.

[Dartful Dodger]

How many times will a kid get into your tools after you give him a time out.

My guess is until child services takes him away from you because he accidentally drilled a hole through his sister's skull.

[shmokes]

Good point.  The wrench it is.

[TelcoLou]

Just wondering something;

What's to be done with a child who repeatedly defies all forms of authority; parents, teachers, relatives, and other adults?

I remember more than one case where the police were called to deal with a disruptive child and wound up using a taser to get them under control. 

I've personally been in situations where a child actually dared me to hit them after scolding them for damaging my property, threatening a law suit or jail, then confronting their parents about it only to hear choruses of "what do you want ME to do about it?"

[Jdurg]

Astonishingly lame comments by Shmokes (shock collars?) and Jdurg (leash attached to the neck?) make such a discussion not even worth my time.

I think you may have mis-read or mis-interpreted my statement.     I wasn't stating that you should attach a leash to a kid and place it around his/her neck.  I was stating that when I see parents who do that it does kind of make me question them.  I have no problem with the parents who have a "leash" that's attached to a bracelet worn around a kid's wrist.  I see nothing wrong with that.

I currently have no children, but when I do have a child I will discipline them how I see fit.  If someone wants to come up to me and say "You're beating your children" if I decide to spank them for misbehaving, then they have every right to.  However, I will quickly show them what a "beating" is by beating the living snot out of that person.

[shardian]

Astonishingly lame comments by Shmokes (shock collars?) and Jdurg (leash attached to the neck?) make such a discussion not even worth my time.

I think you may have mis-read or mis-interpreted my statement.     I wasn't stating that you should attach a leash to a kid and place it around his/her neck.  I was stating that when I see parents who do that it does kind of make me question them.  I have no problem with the parents who have a "leash" that's attached to a bracelet worn around a kid's wrist.  I see nothing wrong with that.

I currently have no children, but when I do have a child I will discipline them how I see fit.  If someone wants to come up to me and say "You're beating your children" if I decide to spank them for misbehaving, then they have every right to.  However, I will quickly show them what a "beating" is by beating the living snot out of that person.

You mean you have actually seen a kid with a leash around his/her neck!?!

Good lord people, a child HARNESS (I'm not capitalizing this for my health), is literally a backpack the kid wears, that has a lead attached to the back of it. If a person is putting a LEASH on their kid, then yes that is wrong.

[Jdurg]

Yeah.  It was a bright neon neck-band with a rope tied around it.  I was stunned myself.

[shardian]

Yeah.  It was a bright neon neck-band with a rope tied around it.  I was stunned myself.

Dude, That's pretty ---beeped--- up right there.

[shmokes]

I'm sure if you actually ever saw that, it was either homemade or made for an animal.  Typically child harnesses look neither like that, or what Shardian posted.  They usually look like this: