CNC Routers

[Daviea]

Sometime early in 2006 I purchased a 90% stake in a local cabinet making woodshop.  At the time, I was thinking I could use the extra equipment to build arcade cabinets whenever the need arose.  Anyhow, as soon as I dumped money into the place I realized that they didn't have any CNC routers.  Oops!  So, being the kind of guy I am, I bought a nice Thermwood CNC router and a lower-end ShopSabre CNC router and began toying around with them to figure out how to use them correctly.  Nobody who worked at the shop had ever used one before, so they provided me with no help.  Well, as you may or may not know, I've got a bunch of cabinet reproduction projects underway, so I had great interest in using these machines as opposed to cutting wood by hand (wasn't EVER going to happen!!).  All of the various arcade cabinet projects hinge on my ability to learn how to use these machines. 

Luckily, I've managed to get the hang of them and produce at least one prototype cabinet which appears to match up to the original.  Take a look at the picture below.  Recognize it?  Pay no attention to the fact that this is unfinished, it's just a first prototype and I used cheap particle board as the test material on 90% of the cabinet.  BTW, it takes about 2.5 sheets of wood to make one of these.  The final product will be a mix of high density particle board and baltic birch plywood.


Major Havoc Reproduction Cabinet Prototype #1




I'd just like to take a moment to give everyone my opinion on the thermwood and the shopsabre cnc routers.  Overall, I have to admit that I like both for different reasons.


Thermwood M53-510



Thermwood.  As delivered, my Thermwood machine ran $170K and came with pretty much every bell and whistle available.  It's a solid, SOLID machine and it does everything quite well.  I really enjoy the automatic loader and off-loader.  You can stack a crate of 4x8 sheets of wood next to this bad boy, load up the program and walk away.  Honestly, this machine requires very little operator interaction once it's set and running.  The automatic tool changer is perfect!!  Really, the only downside, of course, is the high price tag.  This is not the kind of machine you'd want to bring into your garage simply because of the PRICE, let alone the power requirements.  It's just too much machine for the DIY-er, in my opinion.   However, if you have a commercial building with power on tap....and some deep pockets, I can't recommend this machine enough!


ShopSabre 7214



ShopSabre.  As delivered, my shopsabre machine ran $39K and came with a lot of cool features.  It's not as solid as the Thermwood, but it's still VERY NICE for the price.  It doesn't come with any automated load/unload features, so you have to load up each sheet by hand....which isn't so bad.  However, this means you cannot leave it alone to cut up a large production run.  The automatic tool changer is really good and functions without any issues.  You can tell that the company is "young" compared to Thermwood, however they make a very nice machine, especially when you consider the price difference.  I wish that they offered more options.  Though, their customer service is top notch.  I guess that the only downside of this machine is the lack of options such as the loader/unloader which means that it requires more oversight.  Aside from this, I really cannot fault this machine as it seems to do everything you throw at it.  For the do-it-yourselfer, if you have the $$, this is the way to go.  You can get a smaller unit (I have the largest model 7214 which is the 5'x10' unit) and you can choose a full on spindle or lower end strap-on router for the cutting.  It can run on single phase 220, so anyone can slap one of these in their garage.  However, if you get the vacuum hold down (like I have), you will NEED 3-phase.  If you use one at home, that means you'll need a phase converter which can run anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand, depending on how much tech you want.

All in all, I do like both machines, but I'm most impressed with the Thermwood.  I'll be using this machine to crank out all of the arcade cabinets in the future. :-)

Ok, that's all I have on the subject for now.

David Adams
RAM Controls

[IA1NY]

Great writeup on the routers!  I've been using a Thermwood CS-45-510 for about two years at work and a couple of different Gerbers for eight years previously.  We have a Unitech vacuum lifter to load and unload the machine.  Wow is that a back saver!  The Thermwood autoloader is really cool, but with the way we work, we couldn't use it.  I've really enjoyed our Thermwood a LOT but you're right about the usage.  It's an industrial class machine, not for a DIYer.  Even the Shop Sabre, you need to be working full time to pay for that baby. 

A buddy of mine bought a Shopbot about six years ago and loves it.  It was slow and loud (not an industrial machine in the least) but was great for the $8k price and fit his business perfectly.  He had no vacuum hold-down, or spindle motor, but I think he eventually added them.  It's pretty rock solid and gives an accuracy of about .015" (1/64") which is fine for his work and most home woodworkers too.  I've recenty seen that ShopBot has tightened accuracy and speed in their later models.  Any of them might be good ones for your DIYer who has the space.   I believe they come in several sizes from 24"x32" up to 5'x12'.  You can also run them single phase with a P-C router in the head.  I've thought about this brand for my personal use, but don't have the space right now.

What software are you using for programming your machines?  We decided to run a combination of Mastercam and Artcam.  We do 100% custom work on it and ecabinets/control nesting doesn't help us out much.

Your cabinet looks great!  Right now I'm working on a new design for a Jukebox that I'll probably run on the one at work. Looking forward to seeing more!

[Daviea]

The CS45 is a nice machine.  I was at a local distro recently and they had a used model CS45-712 on demo. I have to admit that watching that machine was a real thrill.  The autoloader is a definitely a MUST if you're doing production work and you're short staffed.  I wouldn't trade my Thermwood for ANYTHING.  I really dig the software package that comes with the CS series machines -- Nested Based Manufacturing (NBM) is awesome!  Unfortunately, I don't think the ecab thing will be of any use to me.

I recall looking at the Shopbots awhile ago, but they never impressed me enough.  I did like the low price, though.  I like a good deal just as much as the next guy, but the Shopbots were totally inadequate for my needs.  However, for the DIY-er, I don't think I could find any fault in purchasing one of these.  The price is right AND you can set them up in your garage.  How does your friend like his shopbot, overall?  I imagine that he's probably talked about it since his purchase. :-)  I've read some viewpoints on the PC routers in the past and I have an opinion on the subjct based on my own use of the product.  The porter-cable routers are MORE that adequate to get the job done.  You do sacrifice speed with the PC router (as opposed to a spindle), but that's really a non-issue when we're talking about the kind of volume you would expect from a machine using one of these anyway.  Anyone here on the forum own a shopbot by chance?  I'd like to hear some viewpoints on the subject.

I currently use Mastercam and Alphacam.  I've never had the opportunity of using Artcam, though.  I agree on the ecabinets option....not really of any use to me....yet, anyway.

The MH cabinet pictured is my first attempt on the Thermwood.  I tore through a few sheets of low grade particle board trying to get the hang of the machine.  Once I had it all dialed in, I was off to a running start.  I had to order some custom bits for the odd angles on that cab, but that's another story.  Wait until you guys feast your eyes on some of the other cabinets I've already drawn up.

BTW, can you recommend any suppliers who stock 50" x 50" sheets of baltic birch at a decent price?  I don't know if it's a California thing, but plywood isn't cheap around here right now.  Oh, how I hate to waste even a single scrap of that wood.  LOL

David Adams
RAM Controls

[IA1NY]

Baltic Birch is a tough one.  We go through a couple of local suppliers here in New York, but in any case, it ain't cheap.  We'll look at both that and Apple ply which we consider the same thing but in 4x8 sheets.  The prices flip-flop every so often.  Of course if you need the 60X60 sheets that does no good.

Artcam is cool if you are doing the artistic side of routing (ie signs) and it works well for creating low relief carvings for a router.  It deals with vector shapes much like a draw program such as Illustrator or Corel Draw, so I've found that I like Mastercam for our application which is notably importing shapes from AutoCAD to cut.  Those programs deal with vector shapes in similar ways.  I do like drawing in AutoCAD better, but if I need to, it's nice to be able to not have to change my way of thinking too much.  How is Alphacam?  I've never had the opportunity to try it.

My buddy still likes his Shopbot, but he's doing small display jobs mostly as a one or two man gig.  Not having to cut 100 snowflakes by hand is worth it alone. lol

I work at a large scenic studio, building scenery for Broadway, national tours, and amusement parks.  The first job I did with our Thermwood was a very complex railing appliqué for Phantom of the Opera in Las Vegas.  Talk about pressure!   I had to jump in right away and went through couple of sheets of Apple ply before I got it right.  Now it's a lot easier.

Take care,

Chris LaBudde

[Daviea]

I'll have to check out Artcam when I have a chance.  Perhaps it would add some value to the shop. :-)

Alphacam is pretty much the same as Mastercam.  The interface is different but it essentially provides the same function.  The only reason I use both is so I can be compatible with the employees I've hired (ie: some know mastercam, some know alphacam).  The company that produces the software is a little goofy IMO.  But they do have some innovative ways of providing licensing for their software, at least.

Personally, I prefer Mastercam because it just feels like a better product and I've yet to ever have any trouble with it.  However, I may have this viewpoint strictly because I've had far more experience using it.  I usually start all of my drawings with Solidworks (which is a 3D modeling software which I can't praise enough).  It allows me to "construct" an entire assembly within the program.  This is very helpful when you're doing custom prototype work and you want to verify that all of the parts will fit together.  Anyhow, when working with the cnc router, I just export the files from Solidworks as DXF and then pull them into Mastercam.  Works every time without a hitch.

I'm probably the only guy on the planet that uses Solidworks this way.  In a pinch, I'll use AutoCAD to draw something up real quick which is fine if it's a single part.  I started with AutoCAD version 1.2 way back in the early 80's and I've been using it ever since.  I'll never drop AutoCAD because it's been around since pretty much the beginning of the PC days and it's so well known that pretty much any vendor can work with the files.

I can't help but notice that the pricing on all raw materials has shot up through the roof as of late.  I was just having this conversation with a friend of mine earlier today.  Apparently, the weakening dollar coupled with the fact that we're exporting massive amounts of raw material to China has created a really nasty price hike for all the materials we need for day to day business.  Nice.  Guess we'll just have to suck it up and PAY.  Luckily I purchased a few dozen crates each of baltic birch, white and black melamine and particle board last year before the price started rising.  The only downside is the amount of room is takes to store this kind of quantity.  Speaking of melamine, I'm not too keen on cutting that up on the router, given the chemical makeup of the resin.  Have you ever worked with it?  I imagine that it's pretty nasty and probably unhealthy to inhale.  The baltic birch I buy is formaldehyde-free which is probably one of the many reasons it's so darn expensive.

BTW, if you ever want to talk shop sometime, PM me.  I'm always glad to help if I can.

David Adams
RAM Controls

[sstorkel]

I'll have to check out Artcam when I have a chance.  Perhaps it would add some value to the shop. :-)

You should probably figure out what workers in your area are familiar with. Everyone I've talked to in my area seems to use Mastercam or Surfcam, for example. Seems like small- to medium-sized shops tend to go with Surfcam, while medium- to large-sized shops gravitate toward Mastercam. Local community colleges only seem to teach Mastercam, which might account for some of it's popularity. Like you, it seems that most folks design parts in Solidworks and then use a CAM system to generate toolpaths.

FYI, if anyone here is interested in Solidworks the pricing on the Student Edition is pretty compelling!

Speaking of melamine, I'm not too keen on cutting that up on the router, given the chemical makeup of the resin.  Have you ever worked with it?  I imagine that it's pretty nasty and probably unhealthy to inhale.  The baltic birch I buy is formaldehyde-free which is probably one of the many reasons it's so darn expensive.

You can guarantee that the melamine has quite a bit of formaldehyde in it. I had a friend who worked around a lot of melamine shelving in a fairly hot (90+ degree) environment. For various reasons, he got concerned about formaldehyde levels and hired someone to come test the area. Turned out they were 10X higher than allowable! Needless to say, his business ended up disposing of tens of thousands of dollars worth of melamine... He thinks that the heat contributed to the high formaldehyde levels, since he had plenty of melamine furniture in his climate-controlled house and there were no problems there. Still, his story always makes me paranoid about working with the stuff. Given the cost, it wouldn't surprise me if corners were being cut with respect to formaldehyde content! Routing seems like a particularly problematic operation, due to the amount of dust created... I always use good dust collection and wear a respirator when routing melamine!

[Daviea]

I've asked around the shop and nobody has even heard of Artcam, though a couple of them were familiar with Surfcam.  About half of them knew about Alphacam.  Of course, everyone knew about Mastercam since it appears to be the toolpath software of choice.  I guess I'll just stick with what I have since it seems to cover everyone working for me. :-)

About the melamine...I've got dozens of crates of that material on-hand when/if needed.  Personally, I prefer plywood (or even high grade particle board) covered with a laminate (such as formica) for several reasons.  Namely the problem with melamine being so weak...along with the fact that it's got way too much formaldehyde content.  I'm currently looking for something formica-like but at about half the cost.  Those sheets start to get expensive when you buy up a supply of it.  I'm not sure how much the wilsonart laminate is going to run.  I'm still waiting on the sample chips to compare with the formica.

Making the jump from AutoCAD to Solidworks took some getting used to.  Sure it was an uphill climb for awhile there, but once I got around the way of thinking behind the modeling software I was all set.  I think they have an evaluation version you can download?  If so, I would recommend that anyone interested in 3D modeling or mechanical design work check it out.  If you decide that you like it, the student edition isn't priced that far out of reach.

David Adams
RAM Controls

[sstorkel]

About the melamine...I've got dozens of crates of that material on-hand when/if needed.  Personally, I prefer plywood (or even high grade particle board) covered with a laminate (such as formica) for several reasons.  Namely the problem with melamine being so weak...along with the fact that it's got way too much formaldehyde content.  I'm currently looking for something formica-like but at about half the cost.  Those sheets start to get expensive when you buy up a supply of it.  I'm not sure how much the wilsonart laminate is going to run.  I'm still waiting on the sample chips to compare with the formica.

I get the feeling that at the retail level, there isn't much difference in price between Wilsonart and Formica. Not that I've checked recently... As an alternative to laminate, you might check with Alsa Corp. They make a product called "FX Sheeting" that's a thin, stick-on laminate. Much thinner than Formica or Wilsonart. It's flexible enough that you can wrap it around corners. Don't know anything about the price and the color pallet is limited. Lots of metallics, which actually look pretty realistic, though they still feel like plastic. The wood versions look about the same as a wood laminate; they're just a bit too glossy to be realistic.

I think the formaldehyde content of melamine probably varies from vendor to vendor. If you've got a good vendor, then your stuff might be relatively safe. For myself, I don't worry so much about working with it. But, that said, I rarely route it! I typically cut it to size with my Festool plunge-cut circular saw, which has great dust collection, and I wear a respirator while doing it. Routing produces so much dust, I try to avoid it. And, unlike my friend, I don't leave the stuff in a hot warehouse where it's going to off-gas like crazy.

Making the jump from AutoCAD to Solidworks took some getting used to.  Sure it was an uphill climb for awhile there, but once I got around the way of thinking behind the modeling software I was all set.  I think they have an evaluation version you can download?  If so, I would recommend that anyone interested in 3D modeling or mechanical design work check it out.  If you decide that you like it, the student edition isn't priced that far out of reach.

The student version of Solidworks is actually pretty cheap! $90 for a package that normally costs $5000 is quite a deal, I'd say. The only limitations are: the Student Edition only works for 24-months and it adds "Solidworks Student Edition - Not for Commercial Use" (or something like that) to all printouts. And, of course, there's no tech support.

I actually found that the tutorials included with Solidworks made it pretty easy to get started with it. Granted, I'm not an expert and most of the stuff I've been doing has been pretty simple. Don't think I could design a car engine with it, but cabinets, bicycle frames, and similar stuff is no problem. Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any downloadable version. There's a free file viewer and some stuff like that, but you have to pay money to get the application as far as I can tell.

[melarky]

If you need others that are less experienced with cad programs to use your machines for your cabinet shop, you might consider V-Carve (http://www.vectric.com/).  I have used Mastercam in the past, and while I'm not expert, I definately understand that V-Carve isn't a complete replacement as cad software, but for learning curve and ease of use, I find myself using it for things I should probably be using mastercam for

The price is right on it too, I have used both the V-Carve and their Photo Carve program (never used their Cut3D, can't vouch for it), but it's made my life easier.  I figured you might be interested since you said the cabinet shop didn't have a CNC nor anyone who knew how to work one.

P.S. I'm totally jealous of your CNC machines, they look great and I'm sure they are fun to use.  Me and my brother-in-law made our CNC machine, so it's not even close to as nice as yours, but it gets the job done and we've had a lot of fun both building it, and building things with it.  That major havoc cab looks great too btw.

[ChadTower]

That Major Havoc cab makes it hard for me to stand up.

[mccoy178]

I'm in negotiations for buying a shopbot PRT with the alpha upgrade.  Even if this doesn't work out, a CNC is on my to do list.  I'm fascinated with them now.

[mccoy178]

Okay, sounds like I'm in the CNC industry now.

[mccoy178]

I just got back from purchasing the shopbot PRT120x60 with the 7.2 alpha upgrade.  It came with the 5HP spindle and the gentleman I bought it from was cutting 10 inches/sec with 3/4 stock.  To buy this new with everything included would run right at 27k, and I would have to say that any of us weekend warriors would be hard pressed to need anything more than what this machine provides.

[WikiWiki]

So what would you guys reccommend for a DIY'er that just wanted to be able to cut a few cabinets and wasn't concerned with speed or manual loading/unloading or even noise level?  A good value would be important.  Is there any setup that would get me going for a few grand? 

[sstorkel]

Is there any setup that would get me going for a few grand? 

Realistically: no.

Even used gear tends to sell for more than that, if you can find it (which isn't necessarily easy). If you just want to make a few cabinets, buy a hand held router, make some templates, and just cut everything by hand. You'll save yourself a ton of cash and be finished before you could have a CNC system installed and running. If you need more than a few, see if you can find a local cabinet shop with a CNC router and work out a deal. If you show up with cutting tools, programming, and materials you might be able to get them to run the parts pretty cheaply.

[mccoy178]

Check out the forsale forum at www.talkshopbot.com.  There are a couple 48"x48" for sale right now that could handle making a cabinet through adjusting the material.  I have been tremendously happy with the shopbot I purchased.

[synonym9]

Sorry, I did not have time to read the entire thread.....but could I order such a cabinet please?

Regards

[yotsuya]

Hmmm........... If you did a bit a research, you'd know that Daviea and his cabinets are loooooooooooong gone. 

[synonym9]

What would keep him producing another one....if I pay the pice he will do it I think.
Are there other sources for Major Havoc Cabinets?

[spoot]

The fact he's in prison now might stop it.  Oops, apparently wrong Dave.

[yotsuya]

Wrong Dave. But Daviea DID take the money and run.

[HaRuMaN]

What would keep him producing another one....if I pay the pice he will do it I think.
Are there other sources for Major Havoc Cabinets?

Where are you located?

[spoot]

Wrong Dave. But Daviea DID take the money and run.

Is it?  OOps......my bad.

[PL1]

Daviea = RAM SCAM Controls for those who aren't familiar with what happened. (>$25k in un-fulfilled/un-refunded orders at last count, some credit cards were double charged several months after the original order was placed, etc.)

Here is the current sticky thread on the subject. 

A second related thread used to be stickied, too.   


Scott

[synonym9]

What would keep him producing another one....if I pay the pice he will do it I think.
Are there other sources for Major Havoc Cabinets?

Where are you located?

Sir, I am from Vienna/Austria/Europe...but shipping would be on my costs anyways.....

Daveia was the board name for RAM-Controls?

That company is not acting anymore?

That would explain why they always lack the same pictures of the same products.......the page seems to stay still...

[Ingesecition]

Have you made sure you are using the right Post Processor for your machine. Did you get any design software with it or do you now have Vcarve pro.

[yotsuya]

I know you mean well, but Daviea has been gone since Dec '10. Took the money and ran.

[TKW4rr10r]

What would keep him producing another one....if I pay the pice he will do it I think.
Are there other sources for Major Havoc Cabinets?

Where are you located?

Duuuude, don't tell me you are working on a MH repro 

[yotsuya]

What would keep him producing another one....if I pay the pice he will do it I think.
Are there other sources for Major Havoc Cabinets?

Where are you located?

Duuuude, don't tell me you are working on a MH repro 

HaRuMaN will make anything for you for $199.99. He's the Earl Scheib of arcade projects. 

[HaRuMaN]

I can make repro stuff...

[yotsuya]

For only $199.99! 

[HaRuMaN]

For only $199.99! 

lol... 

[synonym9]

I can make repro stuff...

Is this a serious offer?

What is the List of cabinets you offer?

[HaRuMaN]

I can make repro stuff...

Is this a serious offer?

What is the List of cabinets you offer?

Mostly bartops at the moment, I do have a Midway cocktail cabinet, and have drawn plans up for a Centipede and Donkey Kong recreation. 

Pretty much if I can draw it, I can have it CNC'ed. 

www.harumancustoms.com

[yotsuya]

I can make repro stuff...

Is this a serious offer?

What is the List of cabinets you offer?

Mostly bartops at the moment, I do have a Midway cocktail cabinet, and have drawn plans up for a Centipede and Donkey Kong recreation. 

Pretty much if I can draw it, I can have it CNC'ed. 

www.harumancustoms.com

Ask him about his Wacko!

[HaRuMaN]

I can make repro stuff...

Is this a serious offer?

What is the List of cabinets you offer?

Mostly bartops at the moment, I do have a Midway cocktail cabinet, and have drawn plans up for a Centipede and Donkey Kong recreation. 

Pretty much if I can draw it, I can have it CNC'ed. 

www.harumancustoms.com

Ask him about his Wacko!

Ima turn your MAME into a Wacko...

[yotsuya]

Ima turn your MAME into a Wacko...

Then I need my $199.99* back! 





*Actual full size cabinets cost more than $199.99 for those of you truly interested

[HaRuMaN]

Ima turn your MAME into a Wacko...

Then I need my $199.99 back! 

Ask your boy Keith for it...   

[synonym9]

I can make repro stuff...

Is this a serious offer?

What is the List of cabinets you offer?

Mostly bartops at the moment, I do have a Midway cocktail cabinet, and have drawn plans up for a Centipede and Donkey Kong recreation. 

Pretty much if I can draw it, I can have it CNC'ed. 

www.harumancustoms.com

I can help with Solidworks-labor....

I made some cabinets by measurements....some even with some less core-measurements and found out the  rest by myself

[yotsuya]

Ima turn your MAME into a Wacko...

Then I need my $199.99 back! 

Ask your boy Keith for it...   

I did. I lowballed him. He took my wife's wedding dress and lit it on fire as a response.