Universal Remote Advice

[Howard_Casto]

Ok I've been asked (read forced) to idiot proof our home theater setup due to the fact that I have a device hooked up on every input plus a cable box and surround sound system.  These old-school universal remotes aren't gonna cut it anymore so it's time to go for a more hi-tech solution.  I was looking at the logitech mid-range smart remotes, particularly for the 360, like this one:
http://www.engadget.com/2005/11/14/logitech-harmony-universal-remote-for-xbox-360/

At first glance it's perfect as you can set macros to do complicated tasks and the macros are "smart" (meaning if you press "watch tv" when everything is off it turns on the tv and calbe box, but if you press "watch tv" while you are watching a dvd it turns off the dvd player, and sets the video mode back to the cable box instead of just toggling the tv again) The problem is the remote itself.  I went to walmart to check one of these out and to say that the buttons are small would be the understatment of the century.  They are TINY  like smaller than a tic-tac tiny.  There's no way those are gonna fly.  On top of that the layout, as you can see, is ratehr stupid.  The vcr buttons, which you seldom use are on the top.  The navigation ring, which is used often, is at the bottom and see that sliver of a U-shaped array around the navigation ring?  Those aren't accessory buttons, those are the frikkin channel and volume buttons!

Here is what my cable box remote looks and I think it's laid out pretty well:

http://www.urcsupport.com/index.php?mso_id=232

I'm sure most of your cable remotes are something similar. 


So here's the question..... I need a remote that works like the logitech smart remote but is laid out more like my cable remote.  I'm not paying more than 100 bucks either. 

Any suggestions?  (Please don't link me to "dumb" universal remotes... as I said a smart one that'll do smart macros is required)

[somunny]

I was looking at the logitech mid-range smart remotes, particularly for the 360, like this one:
http://www.engadget.com/2005/11/14/logitech-harmony-universal-remote-for-xbox-360/

At first glance it's perfect as you can set macros to do complicated tasks and the macros are "smart" (meaning if you press "watch tv" when everything is off it turns on the tv and calbe box, but if you press "watch tv" while you are watching a dvd it turns off the dvd player, and sets the video mode back to the cable box instead of just toggling the tv again) The problem is the remote itself.  I went to walmart to check one of these out and to say that the buttons are small would be the understatment of the century.  They are TINY  like smaller than a tic-tac tiny.  There's no way those are gonna fly.  On top of that the layout, as you can see, is ratehr stupid.  The vcr buttons, which you seldom use are on the top.  The navigation ring, which is used often, is at the bottom and see that sliver of a U-shaped array around the navigation ring?  Those aren't accessory buttons, those are the frikkin channel and volume buttons!

I have that same remote and while I agree with all of your observations, you'll get used to the layout and feel of it.   I was hesitant to buy it because of the size of the buttons, as well but after a few days it wasn't an issue.  The only gripe I have is it tends to lose its memory for certain tasks once in a while and I have to reload the custom program.  Still, I'd recommend it.

[ahofle]

At first glance it's perfect as you can set macros to do complicated tasks and the macros are "smart" (meaning if you press "watch tv" when everything is off it turns on the tv and calbe box, but if you press "watch tv" while you are watching a dvd it turns off the dvd player, and sets the video mode back to the cable box instead of just toggling the tv again) The problem is the remote itself. 

I'm on my 4th remote now (and still unhappy).  I'm not sure about the Harmony you linked, but IMO what you really want to look for is a remote that supports 'discrete codes', not just macros.  Meaning, for example, it will allow you to program a separate on and off code (not just a single power toggle).  These codes usually need to be entered, not learned from the source remote.  A lot also depends on your equipment (whether it even supports the discrete codes you need).  As an example, my crappy TV requires you to press the input button several times to go from HDMI to component to switch from TV to DVD.  The macros end up being longer than they need to be because you have these series of repeated button presses.  Also if you happen to have low batteries or someone steps in front of the equipment in the middle of your sequence, you are stuck in some wrong input or crazy state that only you know how to fix.  This may not be an issue for you, but it sucks royally when you have family over that want to watch TV or a DVD when you're not around. LOL
You should also check out avsforum.com if you haven't already.

EDIT: I think this is the one I have (very similar anyways)
http://www.remotecentral.com/ureview/84.htm
Other than the lack of discrete codes, it's great.  I think it was on clearance for $100 or so.

[patrickl]

I have a Logitech Harmony 720. Works great. Macro's work well too. Don't have a problem with the button size.

[Zero_Hour]

The Harmony 659, comes a bit closer to your current remote layout, and is programmable via PC. I've had one for some time now and love it. Not too fancy, quite functional, and can be had for under $100

[boykster]

I'm a fan of the Philips Pronto series of touchscreen remotes.  Touchscreen remotes are a "love em or hate em" kind of deal, and I like them.  I wish there were more "hard" buttons, but once you get used to the "soft" (touchscreen) buttons it works great.  The big advantage is the macro abilities.

I use a TSU2000 in my theater, and a bunch of TSU500 ProntoNeo's throughout the rest of the house.  You can easily find an old stock or used unit on ebay, but like I said, you gotta be sold on the touchscreen aspect, and be ready for a BUNCH of programming.

I have my theater remote set to be "activity" oriented, rather than device oriented.  If you press the home button, you are presented with a list of options -> Watch TV, Watch Movie, Watch DVD, Play Game, Lighting, and System Off.  Depending on your selection, a different macro is run and a different "device" screen (or set of screens) is loaded. 

RemoteCentral is a good resource on info on remotes as well as programming.

I've read a LOT of good things about the Harmony remotes, but I totally agree, tiny buttons just don't cut it.  A single remote to control lots of different devices/modes of use NEEDS to be intuitive.  I've put a lot of work into my remote systems to standardize how things work.  Whether you're watching the DVR, DVD player, or a movie on one of the HTPC's, the screen/remote keys are consistant as to how they behave. 

[boykster]

Oh, and with respect to toggling power, setting source inputs, etc and repetitive logic programming, etc.  What you need to find out is if your devices have what are known as "discreet codes".  I control my plasmas and projector with a discreet "on" and "off" code, rather than sending a "power" toggle code.  Same thing with my receiver; it supports a discreet "on", "off", and input codes (rather than cycle) so that when I press "Watch DVD", it always makes sure the display is ON, the audio is set to whatever input the DVD is, etc.

Remote central is also a good place to search for discreet input codes.

[Howard_Casto]

Thanks for the help guys.  I'm getting close, but still no cigar. 

The h-659 comes REALLY close but it doesn't have enough buttons.  I know that you can have an infinate number of "virtual buttons" via the lcd, but I really need a row of 3 (4 would be better) that I can use for the buttons on the 360 and the buttons required by our cable box for pvr/vod.  For the same reason, I don't think the phillips touch-screen remotes are gonna work either.  Seeing as how I'm a guy, I haven't looked down at the remote to operate it since 2000.  I can find every single button on our remote via feel.  On the other hand, my poor mother still has to look down and study the dang thing to do anything other than channel +/- even though we've had the same remote for 10 YEARS.  Maybe that'll help you understand the level of idiot-proofing I need to do. 

She's the reason I worry about small buttons.  The numpad on our remote is one of the biggest I've seen on a modern remote and she still has trouble getting all the numbers pressed in time.  I would get used to them, but she probably wouldn't.

For the record, I have no problem with a lot of setup being involved.  In reality, that's actually what I want because I want to be able to manually add those "problem buttons" (like the tv aspect button, pvr buttons, ect...) so I don't have to switch back to the stock remotes every time I want to do something fancy.  This is the main reason I want to get away from "dumb" remotes because while they get 90% of your buttons there are always two or three seldom used but very important buttons that aren't supported.

AVSforum has never been much help to me due to their crappy search function and the tendancy for useful threads to be 300 pages long.  Remote central was quite helpful though and I'm looking through it as we speak.  Hopefully I can find something there. 

Pretty much all of my hardware supports discrete buttons, but does that really matter?  I mean it doesn't matter if there's a seperate code for on and off, if somebody walks in front or the remote gets pointed away the device still won't turn on and anybody who doesn't know what they are doing are lost as to how to fix it.  Like I said, the logitech's (and most others) have memory of what you've pressed so they know if the button should be toggled or not.  I don't think that's much of an issue though, as all of the higher end remotes I looked at support them anyway.

I'm not looking for a perfect solution, because I know that no such thing exists, I'm just hoping for something better than what we have now.  (Which consists of watching my mother and people like her with horror as they quickly press a button that turns on mutiple things only to immediately point the remote away instead of LEAVING THE FRIKKIN THING POINTED AT THE TV UNTIL EVERYTHING IS ON, WHICH I'VE LECTURED EVERYONE ABOUT FOR 10 YEARS!!!)  My guess is, if the macros are on the lcd buttons, it'll force them to stare at the remote for a while, meaning that it'll stay pointed at the tv until it's done doing it's magic.  If not, the logitech remotes, in particular, have a help mode, in which you tell them which device didn't turn on/off and it fixes the situation for you.

And as if the punishment never ends, I really need to get one for grandma, who's 72 and as you can guess, isn't exactly a technophile.  I hooked her up a dvd player at her place, which she is really excited about.  The only problem is she can't use it by herself because it requires turning on various stuff and changing the video input.  The h-659 might work in her case, because there's no hope of here adjusting the advanced functions on her tv/cablebox anyway and I need to get her something that'll do simple things like setup the dvd player and that's it.

Anyway, thanks for the help guys... I'll keep you posted.

[ahofle]

I'm not looking for a perfect solution, because I know that no such thing exists, I'm just hoping for something better than what we have now.  (Which consists of watching my mother and people like her with horror as they quickly press a button that turns on mutiple things only to immediately point the remote away instead of LEAVING THE FRIKKIN THING POINTED AT THE TV UNTIL EVERYTHING IS ON, WHICH I'VE LECTURED EVERYONE ABOUT FOR 10 YEARS!!!)  My guess is, if the macros are on the lcd buttons, it'll force them to stare at the remote for a while, meaning that it'll stay pointed at the tv until it's done doing it's magic.  If not, the logitech remotes, in particular, have a help mode, in which you tell them which device didn't turn on/off and it fixes the situation for you.

For that, what you want is an RF remote like the MX-600 that has a separate "IR Blaster" that is always pointed at the devices.  You can then point the remote anywhere (and even adjust things from the other room).

[BORIStheBLADE]

I bought a Harmony 880 and love it. I believe it can learn codes and Logitec has good support. I called the guy on my way to work and he went into my setup and reprogrammed it the way he suggested and it works the way I wanted. When you program them its through software on your rig, but it stores it on Logitecs site so thats why he was able to help me.

If they were a little cheaper I would buy another. To top it off its got a rechargable battery which mattered to me so I wouldn't have to go buy batteries and swap them out.

[lcddream]

as mentioned above the MX series of remotes works well

http://www.universalremote.com/product_detail.php?model=39

newegg

newegg used to have a better selection....but their prices on these remotes are usually the best around.

[ChadTower]

I need to look into this stuff... I'm usually fine with using a couple different remotes, but it seems every button on our new Tivo remote turns off the bedroom TV.  Very, very annoying, especially since it won't turn the damn thing back on.

[boykster]

For the same reason, I don't think the phillips touch-screen remotes are gonna work either.  Seeing as how I'm a guy, I haven't looked down at the remote to operate it since 2000.  I can find every single button on our remote via feel. 

Exactly.  I've gotten to the point with the NEO's that I know where the buttons are on the screen despite there being no tactile feel, but that's the reason most people dislike the LCD remotes.  You HAVE to look at it to use it.

Good luck.  Oh and I agree, the remote section over at AVS is worthless.  Way too much noise.

[2600]

How are the JP1 remotes these days?

[Howard_Casto]

as mentioned above the MX series of remotes works well

http://www.universalremote.com/product_detail.php?model=39

newegg

newegg used to have a better selection....but their prices on these remotes are usually the best around.

Yeah I was actually looking at the MX remotes this morning.  I really like the layout.  I'm kind of concerned about the software though.  The logitech/harmony remotes are task oriented while these appear to be device oriented.  I'm trying to get away from having to know which mode to put the remote in to do stuff.

[SavannahLion]

I'm not looking for a perfect solution, because I know that no such thing exists, I'm just hoping for something better than what we have now.  (Which consists of watching my mother and people like her with horror as they quickly press a button that turns on mutiple things only to immediately point the remote away instead of LEAVING THE FRIKKIN THING POINTED AT THE TV UNTIL EVERYTHING IS ON, WHICH I'VE LECTURED EVERYONE ABOUT FOR 10 YEARS!!!)  My guess is, if the macros are on the lcd buttons, it'll force them to stare at the remote for a while, meaning that it'll stay pointed at the tv until it's done doing it's magic.  If not, the logitech remotes, in particular, have a help mode, in which you tell them which device didn't turn on/off and it fixes the situation for you.

For that, what you want is an RF remote like the MX-600 that has a separate "IR Blaster" that is always pointed at the devices.  You can then point the remote anywhere (and even adjust things from the other room).

They finally figured out what to do about that? Jesus, I've been banging my head on that annoying problem for years, until I moved out of my family's home and radically simplified my home entertainment system (moving to a tiny cottage on a college budget will do that). Now if only all the home entertainment manufacturers will wise up and reintroduce a universal method of control without IR and we would be gold. Hint: USB is ubiquitous enough.

[ahofle]

Yeah, the 600 even comes with a bunch of tiny IR emitters that stick right on the IR receivers of your components, so there is no chance of blocking the signal (and you even can put your components inside a cabinet if you wanted).  If it supported discrete codes, it would be the absolute pinnacle of remotes.

[xar256]

How are the JP1 remotes these days?

Harder to come by.  JP1.2 (I think that's it) is out, and isn't hackable that I've found...At least at this point.

[lcddream]

as mentioned above the MX series of remotes works well

http://www.universalremote.com/product_detail.php?model=39

newegg

newegg used to have a better selection....but their prices on these remotes are usually the best around.

Yeah I was actually looking at the MX remotes this morning.  I really like the layout.  I'm kind of concerned about the software though.  The logitech/harmony remotes are task oriented while these appear to be device oriented.  I'm trying to get away from having to know which mode to put the remote in to do stuff.

well it has a "punch through" mode for the main area so for instance if you want your volume to always control your receiver on the main area, it will "punch through" to your amp volume.... instead of having to switch to your receiver device....same for all buttons.

it is fairly customizable

[shmokes]

HC,

If you see a Harmony remote with a layout you like, but without enough buttons, consider that you can also reprogram buttons.  For example, if you need a button for your Xbox 360 that doesn't exist on the remote, just reprogram some useless button, like the number keys to act as the button(s) you need.  My Harmony remote's buttons are individually programmable.  I have a model a little bit above that one, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if they're the same.

Boykster, Harmony makes a touchscreen remote now and it also has a fair number of hard buttons on it, including arrow/select keys.  Maybe you should check it out.  I actually don't have any idea, though, how many hard buttons the Pronto remotes have.  I haven't even seen a picture of one of those in at least a couple years.  BTW, something tells me that a pronto remote can't be had under $100 (the Harmony one is $500), which disqualifies it for HC's purposes.

[boykster]

You can easily snag an older model Pronto off of ebay for under $100.  I keep an eye out for ProntoNeo's (I use them in every room except the theater - 6 in use plus 3 in reserve) and the last few I bought were either new old stock or lightly used "like new" units.  I pay no more than $50 for them.

A bigger one - TSU1000 or TSU2000 might push closer to $100, but maybe not...de;pending on age/condition.

The pronto I use in the theater is a TSU2000:  it has 7 hard buttons.  Mute, vol+/vol-, ch+/ch-, and 2 hard keys below the screen that are programmable.  The prontos I use in the rest of the house are TSU500s and have the same 7 hard buttons as the larger remote, but also adds a cursor/directional pad with an OK button in the middle + 1 more hard button - and the layout is a bit different.

I've seen the big Harmony touchscreen, and played around with it, but I don't like it.  You can't use it with one hand.  Its very nice, but I like how I can pick up and operate my current remotes with one hand.  I've considered upgrading to a newer color remote for the theater but haven't found one that I really like that is worth the $$$ and extensive reprogramming that it will take.

Edit: wow, I just checked out the latest small remote by Pronto - the TSU9400...holy crap that's a nice looking remote.  Too bad they're $500-600!!! 

[Howard_Casto]

well it has a "punch through" mode for the main area so for instance if you want your volume to always control your receiver on the main area, it will "punch through" to your amp volume.... instead of having to switch to your receiver device....same for all buttons.

it is fairly customizable

So does my cable box, but it only helps a little.  I don't think you understand the level of idiot proofing I need to do.  Play needs to play the dvd player except when watching a vod movie, in which case it needs to control the cable box, except when watching 360 streams, where it needs to control the 360.  The thing is, I'm dealing with people that are so technologically retarded that they don't get why you have to press "dvd" before the play controls work on the dvd player.  Also I don't think the mx is "smart" meaning if I setup a "play dvd" button and then a "watch tv" button  if you switch back via "watch tv" while watching a dvd it's gonna turn off the tv!

I'm really sold on the logitech's software it's just too bad there isn't a single solitary logitech remote with a decent layout.


Also, while it certainly eliminates the missed signal problems, I'm not sure I'm sold on the ir-blasters soley on account of looks.  Our cable box has an ir plugin in the back which I could hack to work with the blaster, which is great, but most of my other devices, including a very nice looking lcd tv with the ir port way up on the base do not.  I might get flogged if I go taping stuff to the front of the devices with wires running everywhere.  I'm certainly looking into it though.

[shmokes]

Well . . . not much you can do about the TV, but if you're running an IR blaster you can hide all those unsightly wires and go one step further by hiding the components altogether.  Since you don't need line of sight anymore for the remote to work, you can get rid of sight altogether.  No matter how attractive your components are, I guarantee they're not as attractive as they'd be closed away in a cabinet or behind a wall, completely out of sight.

[Howard_Casto]

Well . . . not much you can do about the TV, but if you're running an IR blaster you can hide all those unsightly wires and go one step further by hiding the components altogether.  Since you don't need line of sight anymore for the remote to work, you can get rid of sight altogether.  No matter how attractive your components are, I guarantee they're not as attractive as they'd be closed away in a cabinet or behind a wall, completely out of sight.

Nope, not an option I'm afraid.  Because we recently switched to a lcd tv, we also recently replaced the tv stand with one designed for a flat display.  Like all stands for flat tvs the shelving area on the bottom is open without walls or doors.  Unfortunately it wasn't cheap either, so I doubt I could get away with ditching it. Heck just the power cords to my wii and 360 look awful on the thing. 

[shmokes]

Have you considered murder?  If you were to put your wife inside a cabinet or behind a wall the issue might become moot   

[Howard_Casto]

Heh... no wife (thank god!) but yes, this is my typical duty... to magically perform the impossible regardless of how impossible I explain that it is. 

[Howard_Casto]

I just wanted to let you guys know that despite how it may sound from my replies, you've been quite helpful.  It looks like I'm gonna try the harmony 659.  The layout isn't perfect, but it's decent and after looking over the MX remotes I've just found their functionality to be a tad clunky.  Also it has a ton of hard buttons, which is what I'm after.  I'll probably add an ir-blaster later on as well.

So thanks guys, I appreciate it!

[NiN^_^NiN]

I've been using my PDA to control everything in my room using the onboard IR port it works quite well (it needed to be hacked to have a better range)

If you have a PDA on hand by chance howard try using that with some of the free software thats out there

Just a suggestion

[Howard_Casto]

No thanks.  As I've already said, hard buttons are extremely important to me. 

[CCM]

You can easily snag an older model Pronto off of ebay for under $100.  I keep an eye out for ProntoNeo's (I use them in every room except the theater - 6 in use plus 3 in reserve) and the last few I bought were either new old stock or lightly used "like new" units.  I pay no more than $50 for them.

A bigger one - TSU1000 or TSU2000 might push closer to $100, but maybe not...de;pending on age/condition.

The pronto I use in the theater is a TSU2000:  it has 7 hard buttons.  Mute, vol+/vol-, ch+/ch-, and 2 hard keys below the screen that are programmable.  The prontos I use in the rest of the house are TSU500s and have the same 7 hard buttons as the larger remote, but also adds a cursor/directional pad with an OK button in the middle + 1 more hard button - and the layout is a bit different.

I've seen the big Harmony touchscreen, and played around with it, but I don't like it.  You can't use it with one hand.  Its very nice, but I like how I can pick up and operate my current remotes with one hand.  I've considered upgrading to a newer color remote for the theater but haven't found one that I really like that is worth the $$$ and extensive reprogramming that it will take.

Edit: wow, I just checked out the latest small remote by Pronto - the TSU9400...holy crap that's a nice looking remote.  Too bad they're $500-600!!! 

I've actually been looking to replace my Harmony 670.  I've had it about a year and for some reason it just doesn't work as well as it used to.   It seems to have developed a 'sweet spot' for it to work.  I have to point it at the right height/angle for it to work reliably.

I used to have a Harmony 880 that worked perfectly for 2 years then just crapped out completely.  I would get another one of those if I could find one cheap enough.

Anyway, these Pronto's look interesting.  How easy is the macro programming on these?  I need to be able to set up activity buttons for the wife:  watch tv, watch dvd, music, etc...

[stephenp1983]

I pmed you about your remote search.  Read it before you buy one at a retail store.

[ahofle]

Why not post it here instead of a PM so you could potentially benefit everyone else? 

[bfauska]

Why not post it here instead of a PM so you could potentially benefit everyone else? 

Maybe he's trying to sell some that "fell off of a truck."   

[boykster]

Anyway, these Pronto's look interesting.  How easy is the macro programming on these?  I need to be able to set up activity buttons for the wife:  watch tv, watch dvd, music, etc...

I haven't programmed a recent pronto, but they all include a version of their ProntoEdit software which is very easy to use.  Additionally, over at RemoteCentral there are tons of pre-made remote layouts that you can start from and then customize to make your own.  The site owner, Daniel Tonks has put together some pretty amazing graphics layouts for the older pronto remotes (not sure if he's picked up one of the newest ones or not) and there are some pretty creative user submitted layouts as well.

http://www.remotecentral.com/files/index.html

[CCM]

Anyway, these Pronto's look interesting.  How easy is the macro programming on these?  I need to be able to set up activity buttons for the wife:  watch tv, watch dvd, music, etc...

I haven't programmed a recent pronto, but they all include a version of their ProntoEdit software which is very easy to use.  Additionally, over at RemoteCentral there are tons of pre-made remote layouts that you can start from and then customize to make your own.  The site owner, Daniel Tonks has put together some pretty amazing graphics layouts for the older pronto remotes (not sure if he's picked up one of the newest ones or not) and there are some pretty creative user submitted layouts as well.

http://www.remotecentral.com/files/index.html

Cool, thanks for the info.   There are a few TSU3000's on ebay now.