Phoenix runs slow in 115! :[

[jasonbar]

Howdy-

Time for another stupid newbie question (after many months of inactivity, I'm *finally* resuming setting up my MAME cab's PC).

Phoenix runs a bit slow & the audio's choppy.  This surprised me, considering most games of this era run great.  I tried almost all of the many bootlegs/children/licensed versions of Phoenix, & they all ran the same.

I tried it on MAME32 .115u2 & mamepp.exe command line .115 & got the same performance.

Any tips for tweaking this to run fine, or is there an older version of MAME that runs it better?  MAWS shows that Phoenix hasn't been updated in a long time, in terms of MAME revs.


Thanks!
-Jason

[u_rebelscum]

Any tips for tweaking this to run fine, or is there an older version of MAME that runs it better?  MAWS shows that Phoenix hasn't been updated in a long time, in terms of MAME revs.

Your computer isn't powerful enough, needed due to discrete sound I'm guessing (but it could be due to mame video changes 0.107).  And there have been many changes in pheonix; clip from MAWS (ignoring adding games):

...
# 0.104: Derrick Renaud changed R22 to 470 ohm per real board of the Phoenix discrete sounds. This should fix the remaining complaints with the discrete sound. The shot & explosion noise sounds still need discrete emulation.
# 0.103u5: Derrick Renaud tweaked Phoenix effect #2 sound to be more accurate matching oscilliscope data. Changed the Phoenix discrete clock rate to a fixed rate of 120000 allowing the simulation to be more accurate with less alaising noise at the cost of speed.
# 0.103u2: Hans Andersson fixed discrete sound effect #2 in Phoenix.
# 0.97u5: Pierpaolo Prazzoli added coin 2 and fixed some dipswitches in the Phoenix clones: Phoenix (T.P.N.), Condor, Griffon and Falcon (bootleg set 2).
# 0.95u3: Derrick Renaud updated tone sounds in Phoenix to use discrete system. Added Discrete sound.
...

Without more info on your system, I'm limited to giving you two "solutions": upgrade your CPU, or go back to a version before 0.95u3.  The first will emulate pheonix better, the latter will run pheonix faster (on the same hardware) but less accurately.

[jasonbar]

Rebel-

Thanks for your reply.  Here's some more info to fill in the blanks in my 1st post.

Pentium 4 1.5GHz
512MB RAM
Windows XP Pro Version 2002 SP2

Certainly not a fancy machine.  Upgrading the machine isn't really an option.  Well, RAM is possible, but undesirable for me...

I already have to get an older version of MAME just for Missile Command--I'll continue sorting & testing all my games, assess all that have issues, & then obtain older MAME(s) for those special cases.  I'd be happy w/ an imperfect Phoenix running properly than a perfectly emulated one.


Thanks,
-Jason

[u_rebelscum]

Hmm, your system might be borderline for phoenix & 0.115.

Tested on:
P4 2.8 Ghz
1 gig RAM
XP pro 2002 sp2
onboard video  (notice how mine prefers ddraw over d3d; yours can be different)

d3d: 172%
ddraw: 190%

If I assume the speed is all CPU bound and it's linear from my CPU to your's, that calculates you to 92% with d3d and 101% with ddraw.  Try benchmarking your computer with either these from the commondline and see what you get:

mame phoenix -nothrottle -str 120 -nouse_backdrops -nouse_overlays -nouse_bezels -video d3d
mame phoenix -nothrottle -str 120 -nouse_backdrops -nouse_overlays -nouse_bezels -video ddraw


Without testing across multiple versions, I'm going to guess it's the discrete sound.  Discreet sound emulation is very CPU hungry, especially when compared to emulating CPUs of the same era.  Memory would get you zero change if it is discrete sound.  So you might try versions of mame from 0.95 and before.

Good luck.

[jasonbar]

Hi Rebel-

Thanks very much again for your help.

Here's what I've got to add.

I've got a Dell PC that seems to have its audio on-board too (based on the location of the audio jacks, which aren't on one of the card slots--they're in line w/ all the other connectors on the back of the case).  Intel(r) 82801BA/BAM AC'97 Audio Controller is listed in my Device Manager under "Sound, video and game controllers".

I ran the first command line (d3d) & got 95.18%.  Speed picked up much in the levels w/ the big birds (no backgrounds to draw, fewer sounds to process) & in the mother ship.  And I had a rockin' game during that test, so the score's a little high.  It was 80% or so during the 1st 2 levels w/ lots of tiny birds.

Using ddraw, I got 100.21%.  It appeared choppier in the first couple of levels (many small birds), but the mother ship really cooked.



Looks as if your math was spot on (within a few % of expected error to account for different screens & such), so it does indeed scale linearly.  Interesting.


Oh, PS--I'm also using mamepp.exe instead of mame.exe on the recommendation of our IT guy who gave me this hand-me down PC from work.

PPS--looking thru my MAME Configs in MALA, it seems that I've got Direct Draw checked & Direct 3D unchecked, but I don't know enough to fuss w/ the many options on those tabs, to see if there's something to tweak 'n' tune.


Thanks again for your patience--love this forum!

[u_rebelscum]

... Dell PC that seems to have its audio on-board too...  Intel(r) 82801BA/BAM AC'97 Audio Controller...

IF you have a sound chip that's using your CPU to do some stuff, and
IF the sound card doesn't use the cpu as much, then you'll probably see a speed up of the amount of cpu freed.
However, onboard sound chips have gotten better than they were and some "sound cards" now use more cpu than some onboard chips.  So unless that sound chip is using 15%-20% of your cpu, upgrading your sound probably won't help.  Not that you wanted to upgrade or anything, just FYI.

..Oh, PS--I'm also using mamepp.exe instead of mame.exe on the recommendation of our IT guy who gave me this hand-me down PC from work.

That's probably better for your cpu than standard mame, the the increase is usually less than 5% (depends on game).  There are p4 optimized builds of mame, but the increase over the pp optimized won't but that much.

PPS--looking thru my MAME Configs in MALA, it seems that I've got Direct Draw checked & Direct 3D unchecked, but I don't know enough to fuss w/ the many options on those tabs, to see if there's something to tweak 'n' tune.

Yah, lots of different, and different computer systems do better with different settings.  As your numbers seems to be slightly better with ddraw, I'd leave that setting as is.  And since you're so close to being good enough, you might want to play with other settings.

The usual to test (and which to change to what depends on your system):

Disable:
sleep
use_backdrops
use_overlays
use_bezels
autoframeskip
mouse
joystick
lightgun
multikeyboard
multimouse
steadykey
offscreen_reload


Enable:
priority
multithreading


Change:
samplerate  (decrease)
frameskip    (increase or disable)
resolution    (decrease)  +  switchres (enable)

[jasonbar]

Thanks tons for this overall list of suggestions to improve performance.  I'm leaving town for the holidays & will tackle this when I return & have time, in a couple of weeks.  I'll report my findings (and probably ask you some more basic questions).  I just wanted to send a quick reply to thank you & let you know I'll be putting your advice to good use...in a little while.

Thanks--happy holidays!

-Jason

[jasonbar]

URS-

Howdy.  Well, it took me a looong time to get this sorted out & I couldn't have done it w/out SGT's tutorial on how to set up multiple MAMEs & other emulators in MaLa.

Well, since I had MAME32 .82 on my laptop & Phoenix ran great on there, I copied over the ROMs & the samples to my MAME PC & set it up to use .82 instead of the usual .115 when Phoenix is launched.

Works like a charm!  Hooray for sound samples & boo to discrete sound!   



One simple configuration question that's vexing me, though...

I'm using a Betson 27" monitor @ 800x600 resolution.  Windows is running @ 800x600.  I have an 800x600 MaLa layout.  When I launch any game, MAME is running in 800x600.  However, when I launch phoenixa w/ MAME .82, the monitor blacks out & I hear the click of some relay inside as it's flipping to another resolution.  This is a minor annoyance that I'd like to remove.  I'm trying running this command to launch it: mame82 phoenixa -resolution 800x600, which I think should force the resolution to be 800x600, regardless of what is in the mame.ini ("resolution     auto") & in phoenix.ini (file is nonexistant).  Am I missing something here?



Thanks!
-Jason

[Minwah]

I'm trying running this command to launch it: mame82 phoenixa -resolution 800x600, which I think should force the resolution to be 800x600, regardless of what is in the mame.ini ("resolution     auto") & in phoenix.ini (file is nonexistant).  Am I missing something here?

Yes that should over-ride the ini setting.  Why not just set 'resolution 800x600' in your mame.ini though?

(Also note, you may need your ini file to be named mame82.ini, since your mame executable is mame82.exe)

[jasonbar]

Thanks for the reply, Minwah.  Perhaps I should back up & ask a few basic questions to be sure I have a grasp on this:

I now have 4 different MAMEs all in the same directory: mame115optpatch.exe (for 99.99% of my games), mame115u2optpatch.exe (for dommy, eggs, screggs, & missile), mame82.exe (for phoenixa), & mame108optpatch.exe (for turbo).  Only mame82 switches resolutions on me when starting & stopping phoenixa--the other 3 MAMEs are well-behaved.

1 - Do all 4 MAMEs use the same mame.ini file?  I thought they did, since I get all sorts of warnings when I launched mame82.exe & had just a mame.ini file in that directory--it can't understand all sorts of items in the ini before it launches & gives me a couple pages of warnings that it doesn't recognize words.  Is it "dangerous" to have multiple MAMEs in the same directory?  I started w/ a full, proper install of MAME115 & then threw in MAME32 115u2, then just copied the executable of command line 115u2 & 82 & 108 all into the same directory.

2 - Looking closer @ the ini file, it appears that the resolution option falls under the PER-WINDOW VIDEO OPTIONS category, so maybe that's used for launching MAME in a window?  I'm launching MAME full-screen, and I see switchres 0 under the FULL SCREEN OPTIONS items, which, to me, suggests that it should not be switching resolution when running in full screen mode.


Make sense?


Thank you very much for your help,
-Jason

[massive88]

I always thought they used the same mame.ini file.  I run mame and vmame with just one ini file, though they are later builds (0.117 and 0.124) so that may have something to do with it.

You can do an easy check, edit your mame.ini to incorrectly point to your roms, and make a mame84.ini that correctly points to your roms.  Run your binarys them from commandline, see which, if any, can find the roms, you'll know what INI they are referring to instantly.

[Minwah]

1 - Do all 4 MAMEs use the same mam.ini file?  I thought they did, since I get all sorts of warnings when I launched mame82.exe & had just a mame.ini file in that directory--it can't understand all sorts of items in the ini before it launches & gives me a couple pages of warnings that it doesn't recognize words.

It does sound like your mame82 is trying to use the mame.ini then.  The way it used to work was, the .ini file had to match the name of the Mame exe...however I know there was a bug with this in that it would use mame.ini whatever (IIRC).  Now I don't know if this 'bug' was ever fixed, or if it was just decided that mame.ini was the accepted naming regardless of Mame executable name.

  Is it "dangerous" to have multiple MAMEs in the same directory?  I started w/ a full, proper install of MAME115 & then threw in MAME32 115u2, then just copied the executable of command line 115u2 & 82 & 108 all into the same directory.

Well not dangerous...but not recommended.  However I would say you are probably OK having 0.108, 0.115 & 0.115u2 in the same folder.  I would put v0.82 in it's own folder though, as the mame.ini file, ctrlr format, cfg format etc. will be different to 0.115 etc.

2 - Looking closer @ the ini file, it appears that the resolution option falls under the PER-WINDOW VIDEO OPTIONS category, so maybe that's used for launching MAME in a window?  I'm launching MAME full-screen, and I see switchres 0 under the FULL SCREEN OPTIONS items, which, to me, suggests that it should not be switching resolution when running in full screen mode.

I think 'resolution' is used for full screen. Just make sure you set 'window 0' and 'switchres 1'.  Same settings required in Mame 0.82 ini file, just in different places (no per-window stuff etc).

[Lilwolf]

btw, you should consider using soft15khz.exe and running it at native resolutions.

That being said, I'm currently wrestling with getting it working in vertical games well.  I can force it nicely, but the defaults gave me bad results (I recommend removing all interlaced modes (1) and then with vertical games, the default resolution stretches the screen down... you want to set the resolution to one that is high enough so it can stretch up instead of down.

[jasonbar]

I think 'resolution' is used for full screen. Just make sure you set 'window 0' and 'switchres 1'.  Same settings required in Mame 0.82 ini file, just in different places (no per-window stuff etc).

Howdy Minwah-

Nope, that doesn't quite work for me.  I did already have window 0 & switchres 0.  When I changed switchres to 1, *every* MAME version that I launched from MaLa did a resolution *click!* & res switch (and ended up using a lower refresh rate, flickery in-game resolution).  No good.

If I change switchres back to 0, then only launches of 82 so the monitor *click!* & blackout & res switch, while launches of 108, 115, & 115u2 go straight into the game smoothly.


Here's my theory.  Older MAMEs like .82 used a different command in the mame.ini (not "resolution") to control resolution.  Do you agree?


Thanks,
-Jason

[jasonbar]

btw, you should consider using soft15khz.exe and running it at native resolutions.

Howdy-

I hadn't heard of that before, so I looked into it.  I'll stick with things as they are, thanks--everything looks good to me--I'm not bothered by using "wrong" resolutions for games--I don't notice.  I've already made my software setup plenty hard enough (for a non-software stud like me...), so I'll pass on soft15khz.exe, thanks.

-Jason

[SGT]

I wouldn't recommend using the same mame.ini file for both old and new versions of Mame due to changes over the years.  Its pretty easy to have the different versions of Mame in their own folders so that they can have their own mame.ini.

[ahofle]

I hadn't heard of that before, so I looked into it.  I'll stick with things as they are, thanks--everything looks good to me--I'm not bothered by using "wrong" resolutions for games--I don't notice.  I've already made my software setup plenty hard enough (for a non-software stud like me...), so I'll pass on soft15khz.exe, thanks.

-Jason

Just curious, but why on earth did you spend money on a Betson if you're just running everything at 800x600?   

[jasonbar]

SGT--alright, I trust your opinion.  I'll make a handful of different MAME folders.  It shan't be too tricky.


Ahofle--I bought an empty Simpsons (converted to Neo Geo) cabinet, a few people recommended a 27" Betson as an easy drop-in, I live close to Betson so I could drive over there & pick it up w/out paying shipping, and...well, I'm not sure which part of my decision has you seeing stars--please elaborate--is the Betson capable of all sorts of fancy resolutions, so I should be taking adavantage of it?  Is there some other 27" cheaper monitor that run at 800x600 that I could be using?  Not trying to pick a fight, just not sure what part of my decision is silly. 

Thanks,
-Jason

[Minwah]

is the Betson capable of all sorts of fancy resolutions, so I should be taking adavantage of it?  Is there some other 27" cheaper monitor that run at 800x600 that I could be using?  Not trying to pick a fight, just not sure what part of my decision is silly. 

I don't know much about that screen, but I think it is capable of low-res (standard arcade resolution) and beyond. Therefore running arcade games at a high resolution such as 800x600 defeats the object - you might as well have just used a PC monitor.

[jasonbar]

I don't know much about that screen, but I think it is capable of low-res (standard arcade resolution) and beyond. Therefore running arcade games at a high resolution such as 800x600 defeats the object - you might as well have just used a PC monitor.

I see.  Well, no remorse here.  The Betson was easy to mount, I got a discount, it was a short drive to get it, I played lots of pinball @ Betson while I was there, and I imagine it wasn't *that* much more expensive than a 27" PC monitor, which I would've had to disassemble & hack to be able to mount in an arcade cabinet.  Plus, I really don't notice the difference when running @ different resolutions--as long as the size & aspect ratio look fine to me, I'm happy--I never understood the fuss over trying to match resolutions--mind you, I'm sure that I fuss over lots of other things that most people find trivial.... 

Thanks,
-Jason

[jasonbar]

I wouldn't recommend using the same mame.ini file for both old and new versions of Mame due to changes over the years.  Its pretty easy to have the different versions of Mame in their own folders so that they can have their own mame.ini.

Oh, sorry, 1 more follow-up on this.  When you say "old and new", are you saying that I can keep 108, 115, & 115u2 together, since they're all "new", and just segregate 82, or ought I segregate more?

Thanks again,
-Jason

[SGT]

If it were me, I would separate .108 also.  I know there have been many changes to the mame.ini file over time.  By keeping your mames separate, not only do you avoid problems caused by settings in mame.ini that are incompatible or incorrect between versions but it also allows you to tweak each version separately as needed.  Personally I keep every version of Mame separate, however I haven't found a need to run versions that are "close" together.

[ahofle]

is the Betson capable of all sorts of fancy resolutions, so I should be taking adavantage of it?  Is there some other 27" cheaper monitor that run at 800x600 that I could be using?  Not trying to pick a fight, just not sure what part of my decision is silly. 

I don't know much about that screen, but I think it is capable of low-res (standard arcade resolution) and beyond. Therefore running arcade games at a high resolution such as 800x600 defeats the object - you might as well have just used a PC monitor.

Yeah, that monitor is capable of pretty much every raster arcade resolution out there.  The difference (to me at least) is huge.  It's just a pretty expensive monitor to only be using one of it's many resolutions.  If you aren't interested in mucking around with Soft15khz, you may want to look into grabbing an ArcadeVGA card (there is one for sale in the BST forum actually).  It's as simple as plugging in, installing the drivers (and multisync patch), and then MAME will have a ton of low resolutions to choose from.

[jasonbar]

Yeah, that monitor is capable of pretty much every raster arcade resolution out there.  The difference (to me at least) is huge.  It's just a pretty expensive monitor to only be using one of it's many resolutions.  If you aren't interested in mucking around with Soft15khz, you may want to look into grabbing an ArcadeVGA card (there is one for sale in the BST forum actually).  It's as simple as plugging in, installing the drivers (and multisync patch), and then MAME will have a ton of low resolutions to choose from.

Thanks for your input, Ahofle.  For now, I'm just happy that everything's working fine.  :]  I've been fussing w/ the software for about a year now & am ready to finally put the PC into the cabinet & set up my 8 USB controllers & Johnny 5 & get playing! 


Thanks,
-Jason

[jasonbar]

If it were me, I would separate .108 also.  I know there have been many changes to the mame.ini file over time.  By keeping your mames separate, not only do you avoid problems caused by settings in mame.ini that are incompatible or incorrect between versions but it also allows you to tweak each version separately as needed.  Personally I keep every version of Mame separate, however I haven't found a need to run versions that are "close" together.

Hey SGT-

Update & comments.

1 - MAME 82, 108, & 115 all use "mame.ini", even if you rename the executable to something like mame82.exe

2 - Oddly, if you run "mame82 -createconfig" at the command line to create an ini file, it calls the new ini file mame82.ini.  And it *will* use that ini file if it doesn't find mame.ini.  In other words, if you have mame.ini & mame82.ini in the same file as your mame82.exe, the executable will use mame.ini.

3 - Having said that, I *still* can't get Phoenix to *not* blank & click my monitor when it launches.  I'm using a proper mame82-generated ini.  Here are the entries in it that I think are relevant to this discussion: window 0, hwstretch 0, cleanstretch auto, resolution auto (or 800x600--no difference), zoom 2, refresh 0, switchres 1 (or 0--no difference), screen_aspect 4:3

4 - I just noticed that, when I launch Phoenix in 115, it pulls up the cocktail bezel from the artwork directory.  However, when I launch Phoenix in 82, it doesn't pull up the artwork.  I've got the artwork directory set up in the ini: artwork_directory ..\mame\artwork, and I also have the following settings in the ini: artwork 1, use_backdrops 1, use_overlays 1, use_bezels 1.  Any idea why that doesn't work?  Actually, this is an academic question, as I don't find the cocktail bezel very attractive & it *really* shrinks down the playfield more than I like.

5 - My other oddball game, Turbo, runs on MAME108.  It pulls up the nice bezel artwork on the left side, where the score & tach/speedo LED displays were on the real arcade machine.  The speedometer fills in red as I drive faster, but the tach & Best 5 & Your Score are blank.  Oddly, the turbo.zip file in my artwork folder has a handful of tachometer images in it.  Any trick to getting the tach or the scores to work, or are they not functioning in MAME108?  According to MAWS, 107u4 is where the built-in layout was changed, which is where I figured this bit of graphics was programmed...Using the same artwork & ROMS files, MAME115 shows all those display items correctly (though I can't get the game to run at full speed.  It's about 68% or so w/ MAME115...

Thanks!
-Jason

[jasonbar]

I wouldn't recommend using the same mame.ini file for both old and new versions of Mame due to changes over the years.  Its pretty easy to have the different versions of Mame in their own folders so that they can have their own mame.ini.

Where's the smiley for dusting off an old thread...?

Been doing some more software tuning on my MAME cab that has 5 different MAMEs on it (long story...).

Not only is it a good idea to segregate your MAMEs so that they don't fight over the same .ini file, but I ran into issues w/ them fighting over the same default.cfg file in the cfg directory this week.

I'm running 82 (Phoenix), 105spin (for LeapinLew's spinner hacks), 108 (Turbo), 115 (99.9% of games), 115u2 (Dommy, Eggs, Missile Command, Scrambled Egg).

I went into the various MAMEs & set up all the key assignments, but they kept getting boogered up.

Turns out that some of the MAMEs boogered up the default.cfg file enough that I lost key assignments.


So, I segregated all the "oddball" MAMEs into their own directories w/ their own subfolders for the required files (artwork, roms, samples, etc.).


Thanks,
-Jason

[Ummon]

Yes. To be expected given the changes in formats of different aspects between versions. Of course, roms change, too.

[jasonbar]

Yup, I already knew about & dealt w/ ROM incompatibilities, so at least that part was done--it's pretty obvious when a game won't run b/c it has the wrong ROM.   

But the fight over default.cfg didn't show up until I started re-assigning key commands in the various MAMEs.

Thanks,
-J