Super Mario Galaxy

[ChadTower]

Actually, the N64 was specifically designed around Mario 64... the machine's whole architecture was centered around making  that game as great as could be done at the time.  That's why nearly everything else on the system is only half as good as the primary launch title.

[shmokes]

You do know who founded General Electric... right?

Heh . . . Edison presumably.     That's funny.  Okay, substitute Phillips or LG in place of GE.

By the way, Tommy, do you actually believe this stuff?  Cos it's pretty hilarious.  Do you mean to tell me Atari was ready for 2D, but Nintendo wasn't ready for 3D?

[shmokes]

Possibly... though I only remember potentially saying it about Metroid and Mario Kart... Mario Kart isn't even out yet, is it?

The other was Zack and Wikki, the new point & click adventure game that's all the buzz right now.     I'd like to get my hands on it myself.

[SavannahLion]

Actually, the N64 was specifically designed around Mario 64... the machine's whole architecture was centered around making  that game as great as could be done at the time.  That's why nearly everything else on the system is only half as good as the primary launch title.

That just reeks of fanboyism. 

[shardian]

Actually, the N64 was specifically designed around Mario 64... the machine's whole architecture was centered around making  that game as great as could be done at the time.  That's why nearly everything else on the system is only half as good as the primary launch title.

Not technically true. The designers had to take considerable shortcuts on the mario game because of hardware inefficiencies. That is why there isn't alot of detail on the levels - and the trees are 2d  . I'm fine with that though, because what was there was awesome, there was zero load times, and gameplay was pretty sharp. The playstation at the same time had clunky game play, huge load times, and extremely pixelated 3d graphics.

The no-loading is why I went with N64 over playstation. Ever played NFL Blitz on playstation? Have you also played it on N64? If your choice between consoles was based on that comparison, you sure as hell would pick the N64 wouldn't you.

Still, Nintendo was their own worst enemy for the same reasons they picked the no-load cart based platform - it was just easier and cheaper to make games for cd based systems. Nintendo is directly responsible for putting playstation on the map. If the N64 had been cd based, it would have blew Sony off the map in no time. You have to remember, the big PS games like Final Fantasy VII were originally contracted to be exclusive to N64. The whole gaming landscape could be DRASTICALLY different today because of that one decision.

[ChadTower]

Not technically true. The designers had to take considerable shortcuts on the mario game because of hardware inefficiencies. That is why there isn't alot of detail on the levels - and the trees are 2d  .

Which is indicative of a parallel development process.  They tweaked the console several times to get more for Mario 64... and also tweaked Mario 64 several times because they couldn't get quite what they wanted out of the hardware.  When you're designing software to run on a custom, cutting edge platform, that happens.

You have to remember, the big PS games like Final Fantasy VII were originally contracted to be exclusive to N64. The whole gaming landscape could be DRASTICALLY different today because of that one decision.

Yeah, Nintendo saved gameplay.  I can't stand interactive movies like the later Final Fantasy stuff... I want a game that is fun, not a game that looks spectacular but plays like stereo instructions while being mostly passive watching anyway.

[tommy]

That makes no sense.  The N64 was specificially designed with an eye towards 3D games. You don't develop a machine with that kind of hardware and an analog controller and not expect developers develop 3D games for it.

That was after the fact. I know they had to go ahead and now develop 3D games after they made the thing. 
 
It shouldn't have been made with 3D in mind to start with. IMO

[tommy]

As for shmokes, we already had this argument here and I don't feel like reliving it again. I just commented on that one guys comment and agreed.  And yes, i am for real that the N64 sucked ass with it's blurry hard edges.

I'm not talking about 2D games at all here. That was all we knew for the longest time and that is how a lot of good games started out, any 2D game is irrelevant so don't bring it up. I'm talking about the giant leap from 2D to 3d, that IMO did not work out very well with the hardware that they had at that time. That's all, simple.

[AtomSmasher]

As for shmokes, we already had this argument here and I don't feel like reliving it again. I just commented on that one guys comment and agreed.  And yes, i am for real that the N64 sucked ass with it's blurry hard edges.

I'm not talking about 2D games at all here. That was all we knew for the longest time and that is how a lot of good games started out, any 2D game is irrelevant so don't bring it up. I'm talking about the giant leap from 2D to 3d, that IMO did not work out very well with the hardware that they had at that time. That's all, simple.

Well your argument is that early 3D games sucked because they didn't look very good, so it makes perfect sense to compare them to early 2D games which also did not look very good.  I can see why you wouldn't want to talk about 2D games since it does destroy your argument, but it doesn't make a lot of sense how bad graphics can only ruin 3D games and not 2D games.

[tommy]

2D games was the start of gaming altogether and can't be at fault. You can't blame the first cave man for making a ---smurfy--- wheel when he just came up with it and is a genius. But as of today you can blame a ---smurfy--- wheel maker with so much that has been learned since then.

They needed one more generation of 2D games before they made the leap to 3D. That's just me though, i guess.

[bishmasterb]

My god, it sucks that the hardware development team kept lying to Miyamoto, telling him that the hardware would be ready for 3D. If they hadn't, just think of the really mondo bitchin' SuperMarioWorld2 that we could have had instead of SM64.

[shardian]

I'll tell you this much, in 1997 the $200 N64 was playing a hell of a lot better 3d games than my MUCH more expensive pc was.

Even if you could play 3d pc games at higher resolutions then, it was gonna set you back around $2000-$3000.

[SavannahLion]

That makes no sense.  The N64 was specificially designed with an eye towards 3D games. You don't develop a machine with that kind of hardware and an analog controller and not expect developers develop 3D games for it.

That was after the fact. I know they had to go ahead and now develop 3D games after they made the thing. 
 
It shouldn't have been made with 3D in mind to start with. IMO

Are you even understanding this argument? Do you even realize the time frame involved here?

I've read all of your arguments in the past, but this one of yours pretty much takes the cake.

[AtomSmasher]

That makes no sense.  The N64 was specificially designed with an eye towards 3D games. You don't develop a machine with that kind of hardware and an analog controller and not expect developers develop 3D games for it.

That was after the fact. I know they had to go ahead and now develop 3D games after they made the thing. 
 
It shouldn't have been made with 3D in mind to start with. IMO

Are you even understanding this argument? Do you even realize the time frame involved here?

I've read all of your arguments in the past, but this one of yours pretty much takes the cake.

If theres one thing we all should of learned from this forum by now, its that it's impossible to change Tommy's mind once it's set.  That's why even though I feel his response to me doesn't make a lot of sense, I've decided to just let it go.  Of course if you enjoy pointless arguments, then carry on because Tommy is the king of pointless arguments 

[shmokes]

N64 had loads of great games, IMO. 

[versapak]

N64 had loads of great games, IMO. 

Agreed.


3D wasn't only a graphics revolution, but it was very much a gameplay revolution (probably even more importantly).

To say that the N64 shouldn't have been released, because 3D gaming didn't match the visuals of 2D gaming is just plain retarded.

No, you don't really look back at N64 gfx and think, "WOW, those are stunning!", but they sure as heck weren't ugly for the day, and the gameplay experience that 3D brought was what it was all about.

[Wiibound]

I've heard people say that PS1 had better graphics than the N64.. they're on crack. The N64 always looked like it had fuller polygons (if that makes sense), better colors and a much cleaner look.

Anyway SMG = best game ever made

[versapak]

N64 had loads of great games, IMO. 

Name 10.

I'll start you off with Mario Kart, Goldeneye, Zelda, and uh... well....   

I had a Z64, so I pretty much played everything.  The only games I liked were the ones I actually bought.  Go figure...

Mario 64
Pilot Wings
WCW/NWO (and any of the other THQ/Aki wrestling games)
Conker's Bad Fur Day
Mario Party
Wave Race
Star Fox
Beetle Adventure Racing
Banjo & Kazooie
Rayman 2
Paper Mario
Perfect Dark


...and plenty more.

[ChadTower]

Tons more... hell there was even a DDR game for the N64.

[stephenp1983]

Yeah n64 was probably my favorite system for awhile.  I skipped out on ps1 because of the above mentioned reasons, but I loved my n64

[versapak]

Mario 64
Pilot Wings
WCW/NWO (and any of the other THQ/Aki wrestling games)
Conker's Bad Fur Day
Mario Party
Wave Race
Star Fox
Beetle Adventure Racing
Banjo & Kazooie
Rayman 2
Paper Mario
Perfect Dark

Beetle Adventure Racing was actually a decent title, but in the same class as Mario Kart or Goldeneye...?  The rest of this list I'd raise a skeptical eyebrow to.  Conker had a chance until the electric eel part.  It's amazing how one sequence could destroy an otherwise good game.

The Disney DDR game was terrible. 

Who said anything about the same class as Mario Kart or Goldeneye?

There is no system ever made that has more than a few legendary games, and a list of them will always be a small one.


The N64 had a ton of great titles, and those I mentioned were some great gaming experiences, and there were many more.

[hypernova]

Mario Kart 64
Goldeneye

Mario 64
Pilot Wings
WCW/NWO (and any of the other THQ/Aki wrestling games)
Conker's Bad Fur Day
Mario Party
Wave Race
Star Fox
Beetle Adventure Racing
Banjo & Kazooie
Rayman 2
Paper Mario
Perfect Dark

I'd add:

Zelda Ocarina of Time
Zelda Majora's Mask
Super Smash Bros
KI Gold
MK Trilogy
Star Wars Shadows of the Empire
F-Zero X

With regards to many of these games, this system was ready for 3-D.  For Christ's sake Tommy, you can't go from no 3-D to smooth as silk 3-D graphics.  N64 was a beautiful system.  Progress is made with small steps. 

[versapak]

I'd add:

Zelda Ocarina of Time
Zelda Majora's Mask
Super Smash Bros
KI Gold
MK Trilogy
Star Wars Shadows of the Empire
F-Zero X

Well, Zelda he already had in his post (the one I was replying to), but the others...


Yes, I would definitely add those. I could have swore I actually did list Super Smash Brothers, but obviously not. That was one that got a HUGE amount of play at my house.


Between the Saturn, PSX and the N64, the N64 was hands down easily my system of choice.

[hypernova]

Well, Zelda he already had in his post

It didn't specify which, so I figured I'd list them both.

And Howard, if you're reading, I used "MK" on the proper game.

[AtomSmasher]

107 stars and counting 

[ahofle]

I just played SMG tonight for the first time at a friend's party.  Man, what a religious experience.  I'm so pissed I missed the $34.95 sale at Circuit ---smurfy---.  

[SavannahLion]

I'd question Conkers there. I have the title and even got the promo T-shirt with it. Not exactly one of the best N64 titles to own. I'd shuffle in a DK or a Zelda instead.

Between the Saturn, PSX and the N64, the N64 was hands down easily my system of choice.

Oddly enough, now that I think about it, despite buying more titles for my PSX, I probably spent more time playing N64 games. Must be that Pokemon Snap!

Even weirder, my ex spent way more time playing N64 games than I ever did, yet the ---smurfette--- took nearly half my PS* titles when she left. WTF?  Of course, she made off with the Gamecube and left me only one title, so I guess she considered a GCN for a N64 a fair trade.

[HaRuMaN]

I dunno... Conkers was a lot of fun... in multiplayer mode.

[danny_galaga]

N64 had loads of great games, IMO. 

and it looks like i have most of em! being a newcomer to the N64 i just went for genres i liked and that others have said were great. im playing goldeneye now, but it sounds like mario64 will be next (this is super mario64, right? thats what i have). and from the sound of it, i will definitely have to get a wii next year and get super mario galaxy.

N64 had loads of great games, IMO. 

Name 10.

I'll start you off with Mario Kart, Goldeneye, Zelda, and uh... well....   

top N64 games

[ChadTower]

Conker is a great game for platform lovers... I don't like overly violent games, so stuff like Goldeneye and Perfect Dark do little for me.  Gotta say they did get tons of play in the group of friends, though, and they really did do things that couldn't be done before that on a console.

[versapak]

top N64 games

Perfect Dark is #2 on that list and that game is a big, big, BIG "uhmm.... no".

I enjoyed my N64, I enjoyed my Z64, I enjoyed playing games months before they hit retail... 

But, again, the only games worth playing on that system were the ones I actually bought.

Until this thread, I wasn't aware there was a distinction between 'great' and 'legendary' games.    Majora's Mask was unplayably bad, IMO, and I was modding Jet Force Gemini carts to play the Japanese ROM, so I'd say I gave that title its fair chance! (you had to put a different chip on the Jet Force Gemini PCB to boot the rom and be able to save it)

For every 'legendary' game on this system, there were 20 others that involved 'run the generic character around a foggy room until you find the switch'.

I was more a Sega Saturn guy myself.   

Of course there is a difference between great and legendary.


Mario 64 changed console gaming, as did Goldeneye.


You say make a list of only games that are that good, and it doesn't matter what system you choose, the list is going to be very small.


I too had a Z64. I still do, and it has long had a hard drive installed in it. I am no stranger to N64 gaming either.


Then you bring up Saturn... Go ahead and name ONE game on Saturn that is in the same league as Mario 64 or Goldeneye.

Yeah, there are some great games on the Saturn, but there isn't a single one that has changed console gaming.

Those titles are legendary. Tastes differ, and maybe you find a different list of games great, but when all is said and done, to say that N64 only had about 3 is pretty ignorant and just plain stupid.

[patrickl]

OK, I finally got the Super Mario Galaxy too. Maybe it's all the hyping, but i was quite underwhelmed. The colors and graphics are cute, the worlds look nicely detailed and the music is nice (although kinda over the top now and then). It's just feels like a bit of a bore and a tad childish to me.

[AtomSmasher]

Then you bring up Saturn... Go ahead and name ONE game on Saturn that is in the same league as Mario 64 or Goldeneye.

Yeah, there are some great games on the Saturn, but there isn't a single one that has changed console gaming.

The games Nights into Dreams, Daytona USA, and Virtua Fighter come to mind.

[ChadTower]

Virtua Cop and House of the Dead, though arcade ports, are far better than any console light gun games to that point.

Panzer Dragoon Saga ushered in a whole new type of RPG as well.

[versapak]

All of those games were great games, and that is my point.

There are definitely great games, but none of those games changed console gaming like Mario 64 or Goldeneye did.


The list of games that did is always going to be extremely small, and for him to expect some gargantuan list of games of that caliber is just silly.


[EDIT]

Panzer Dragoon Saga was a different kind of RPG, but it didn't usher anything.

[AtomSmasher]

Nintendo, IMO, has always been good for about 5 amazing games per system.  With Sega, you always had a couple dozen.  None of them were quite as awesome as the Nintendo Top 5, but they were close.

All of those games were great games, and that is my point.

There are definitely great games, but none of those games changed console gaming like Mario 64 or Goldeneye did.

So I'm confused.  Everyone seems to agree that a few games on the N64 were better then anything on the Saturn, which would be those couple of "legendary" games your talking about, so why are you asking for games on the Saturn that compare to those?  Both systems have great games and while the N64 easily had the top 3 or 4 games of that generation, I agree that the Saturn had a higher quantity of great games.

On a side note (and I'll put my flame suit on), I never liked Goldeneye.  I didn't see the game until around a year after it was released, but at the time I was playing half-life and tribes, and Goldeneye just seemed like crap compared to those.  I know it's considered a revolutionary game, but it must have just been revolutionary on the consoles because it was nothing compared to the PC shooters of the time.

[SavannahLion]

On a side note (and I'll put my flame suit on), I never liked Goldeneye.  I didn't see the game until around a year after it was released, but at the time I was playing half-life and tribes, and Goldeneye just seemed like crap compared to those.  I know it's considered a revolutionary game, but it must have just been revolutionary on the consoles because it was nothing compared to the PC shooters of the time.

I'm the same as you. I've never understood the appeal of Goldeneye myself. I've been playing Half-Life for a while before I picked up Goldeneye. I snagged a copy of it as part of a lot bid at eBay. Popped it in, played for a while, then tossed it on the pile of games to be cataloged. This is coming from a James Bond buff.

[Howard_Casto]

Goldeneye was more fun in multiplayer.  This is why the truely hardcore (like myself) were never impressed by supposed system sellers like halo.  Quite frankly rare did a better job of the multi-player fps all the way back in 97 and on the console end, at least, the only improvment for 10 years has been online play and the lack of split screens. 

Just to add to the list....

Mk Trilogy (no 10 minute load screens and pixelated edges like the ps1 version and no crippled morphs).
Star Wars: SOTE  (The game you can thank for every decent star wars game that has come out since)
MK4  (Not as good as the dc version, but at the time, the dc wasn't out yet.)
Mark Kart (Arguably the best multiplayer game ever.)
Mk Subzero (Highly under-rated... set the ground work for shaolin monks). 

[versapak]

Nintendo, IMO, has always been good for about 5 amazing games per system.  With Sega, you always had a couple dozen.  None of them were quite as awesome as the Nintendo Top 5, but they were close.

All of those games were great games, and that is my point.

There are definitely great games, but none of those games changed console gaming like Mario 64 or Goldeneye did.

So I'm confused.  Everyone seems to agree that a few games on the N64 were better then anything on the Saturn, which would be those couple of "legendary" games your talking about, so why are you asking for games on the Saturn that compare to those?  Both systems have great games and while the N64 easily had the top 3 or 4 games of that generation, I agree that the Saturn had a higher quantity of great games.

On a side note (and I'll put my flame suit on), I never liked Goldeneye.  I didn't see the game until around a year after it was released, but at the time I was playing half-life and tribes, and Goldeneye just seemed like crap compared to those.  I know it's considered a revolutionary game, but it must have just been revolutionary on the consoles because it was nothing compared to the PC shooters of the time.

You need to read my first post, and what I was replying to, because you seem to be looking at what I said out of context.



I responded to someone that was saying that someone couldn't name 10 great games on N64.

I gave a list of more than 10 great games.


He then said they weren't in the same league as Mario and Goldeneye.

I then said... Of course they aren't. No system ever made has a huge list of legendary games.

He then said... What? There is a difference between legendary and great games?

I said... Of course. Mario 64 and Goldeneye changed console gaming. They were legendary. There are however many many GREAT games. Games that offer great gaming experiences. Games that may not go down in history as changing actual gaming, but were excellent experiences all the same.

The same guy mentioning how the N64 didn't have very many great (his definition of great being that it had to be the same league as Mario and Goldeneye) games, then goes to say how he was a Saturn fan instead.

I found that pretty funny, because even though there were many great games on Saturn, there were actually NO games on the Saturn that changed gaming's future at all. None that I would say hold the same esteem in gaming as Mario or Goldeneye.





[EDIT]

I just want to add, after reading above...


Goldeneye was amazing for its day.

It had some great objective story based single player, as opposed to red switch blue switch crap, and it had some excellent multiplayer.

It was proof that a FPS could be done very well on a console.


That being said... The gameplay has not held up over time. The controls, which were great for the day, have long since been surpassed in a big way by more modern controllers.

You can't really go back and play it after having played more modern stuff, and get a true feeling for what it was.

[ChadTower]

I own a whole stack of Saturns and N64s... and most of the domestic libraries for both systems... I love the Saturn and have had mine since it's massively overpriced launch day...

...but there is no way the "high quality games list" on the Saturn is as big as it is on the N64... the Saturn had some great games, but the list of them isn't all that long, and there was a LOT of third party garbage on the Saturn.