I'm amazed at how many people have the wrong idea...

[shardian]

Update:
Dogs out and about again today. Already adapted to the shock collar - it doesn't even phase the big one. He followed and harrassed (barking & growling, approaching from behind) the wife & baby all the way to the mailbox and back. She didn't know he was out until she was past their house.

This situation just makes me miserable. No matter what I do, I'll be considered "the bad guy". No other neighbors are willing to do ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- - even though they make sure to "express their dislike and upsetness".

[patrickl]

That's exactly why the government should ban overly dangerous dogs. "Freedom" is not just being allowed to do whatever you want, but often "Freedom" is not to be hindered by other people's asocial behavior.

[tommy]

Yep, it's not cool when a person who is a murderer comes up behind you and it's really hard to tell the difference between a normal person and a psycho. Be carefull. 

[patrickl]

You're right that's hard to tell. With dogs it's very easy though. There are 3 breeds that are proven to be very dangerous.

Are you that dense that you cannot even see that difference?

[tommy]

It's so sad that in this day and age that people are so ignorant as to STILL lump things that seem similar all in one group and STILL not know that all things are NOT created equal. How can you not know that when people combined with circumstance's interact with things on this earth there are good results and bad, that's all.

You guys are so lost it's not funny. If you can judge this one idea so badly i have to think that you are living a life in an ignorancefull bliss.

[patrickl]

Those 3 breeds are held by only a few people. Yet they are still responsible for 80% of the attacks. is it really that hard to understand that those breeds are dangerous?

A house cat and a puma are both just as easily domesticated. Which would you hold in your house if both were allowed?

[tommy]

Those 3 breeds are held by only a few people. Yet they are still responsible for 80% of the attacks. is it really that hard to understand that those breeds are dangerous?

A house cat and a puma are both just as easily domesticated. Which would you hold in your house if both were allowed?

I'd rather not answer that. I've ran into a few guys named patrick and I've come to the conclusion that anyone with that name is a complete idiot. 

No harm intended.

[patrickl]

OK, so you are not very bright. That's ok. Maybe another example will help.

Suppose there is this new cool and shiny gun. It looks completely like crap, so no sane person wants it. On the other hand, it does have the loudest bang of them all and only the cool people with the nice trailers buy them. Now this type of gun has one tiny problem. On average once every 1000 rounds a gun of this type blows up and seriously injures (if not kills) the person holding the gun or an innocent bystander. If you clean the gun after every shot you might be able to lower the average risk, but oddly enough the guns that blow up are usually reported to be cleaned very thoroughly, so it doesn't really seem to matter that much.

I guess you would be first to get such a gun, but don't you think it's a bit asocial to shoot that gun on the shooting range next to someone who does not have your wish to get maimed?

[shardian]

I'd rather not answer that. I've ran into a few guys named patrick and I've come to the conclusion that anyone with that name is a complete idiot. 

No harm intended.

Hey I thought you gave up on this thread. Talk about weak minded...

Anyways, since you are here, I will kindly refer you to the history of the American bull terrier I posted on the previous page. Once upon a time, "pit bulls" were kind towards humans and were a highly sought after family pet. Their bloodlines have been contaminated in the last 30 years by bad overbreeding and bad socialization, which is transferred thru bad breeding. The "pit bulls" of today are not the same "pit bulls" of yesteryear. Sure, there are plenty who are still good and hold the traits of the older bloodlines. Unfortunately, since any tom dick or harry can sell "purebred" AKC pups, most of which have not been properly weaned, the dogs are "ruined". And then they pass on their bad traits to their litters.

[tommy]

Think of it as a child. The kid will do and act from what it knows and will carry all the bad habits of it's owner or parent from what it was taught and how it was brought up, it's really as simple as that. When you take a puppy pitbull and mold that dog into a peacefull dog from birth it will know nothing more than what you taught it, it can't act crazy if it was not taught to act crazy, it's not possible. I know animals have instincts and will have a certain drive inside them to want to do things that they feel a need to do, but it's not anything that can't be trained out of the animal, in part.

With my dog and what i did in his training was not trying to get the animal out of the dog, we are animals too, but try to get the basic need to hurt others out of fear or nervousness or from being confused, that's when animals attack. When dogs or pretty much anything living feels safe and knows it's place in the world and knows that nothing is going to try to harm them then there is no need for this kind of behavior. I made my dog feel safe in his home and trust those who are around him.

[patrickl]

But then one day you are redecorating your house/trailer and the constant noise of power tools gets on the dogs nerves. The dog no longer feels safe and loved in it's home, it's pretty damned annoyed. A person walks in, makes a wrong move and the dog snaps ...

Of all these attacks that you see in the paper really all people say that their dog was the greatest sweetheart too. It does happen that people train their pit to be an attack dog, but then at least they know to stay away from it. It's when the "sweethearts" have their bad moment and lash out that it goes wrong. It's always a bunch of coincidences why these dogs go nuts, but it's not something you control.

I hope your dog never goes attacks, but you are insane in thinking that you can prevent it from attacking.

[shardian]

Tommy, it's simple - you are wrong.

If a dog is mesed up when its born, it can't be trained away. Ask and REAL dog breeder/trainer. The truth is that dogs just don't one day "snap". The warning signs are there, people just don't recognize them most of the time. Dogs that are territorial as a pup - bad thing. Puppies that growl when you place your hand near their food - a sign people. Ankle biters and dogs that chase and act brave when a persons back is turned, but shy away when the person turns around - bad sign. That means the dog has bad nerves and basically has a mental imbalance just like a human with mental problems would have. You can't train that away with sunshine and daisies like you think.

[ChadTower]

Yep, it's not cool when a person who is a murderer comes up behind you and it's really hard to tell the difference between a normal person and a psycho. Be carefull. 

That dog's behaviour would be considered harrassment and/or assault were it a person.  Consider that.  That's not a normal person behind his wife.  It's a 6-8 275 guy yelling at her.

Think of it as a child (or a gun).

Can't do that.  It's not a child... a child has rational thought and right/wrong.  A dog only has impulse and reward/consequence.  It's not a gun... a gun is an inanimate object that cannot act on its own.

It's an animal.  It will act like an animal and must be thought of as such.

[shardian]

Yep, it's not cool when a person who is a murderer comes up behind you and it's really hard to tell the difference between a normal person and a psycho. Be carefull. 

That dog's behaviour would be considered harrassment and/or assault were it a person.  Consider that.  That's not a normal person behind his wife.  It's a 6-8 275 guy yelling at her.

Yeah, that statement was so utterly retarded I didn't even know what to do with it. I guess I would have to visit Tommyville for a while to understand some of the things he thinks or says.

WELCOME TO TOMMYVILLE!
Population: 1

[ChadTower]

We can get you to tommyville but I'm afraid it is a one way trip. 

The only thing I can think of where that comment is consistent with his prior statements is if he thinks following a pedestrian while growling and barking (without touching) is reasonable and that a well trained dog is within his limits doing that.  If he actually believes that, though, then every statement he has ever made about his dog and its training has become irrelevant.

[CCM]

Tommy,

Just keep living in your dreamworld.  You are completely wrong and have nothing to back up your opinion.  Face it, your dog is a ticking time-bomb.

http://www.sun-herald.com/NewsArchive2/051305/tp5np14.htm?date=051305&story=tp5np14.htm

Quote from link:
Hawkins said he was devastated by Bubba's attack on Merina, whom he admits did nothing to provoke it. He said the dog has never shown aggressive behavior until now.

"He's the best dog I ever had," he said.

Hmmm, that guy sounds alot like you, tommy.


http://www.rosenblog.com/2005/05/24/pit_bull_attacks_raise_questions.html

The term "responsible pit bull owner" is fast becoming an oxymoron....The breed is being ruined by the nuts out there who call themselves breeders, who aren't breeding for good, stable temperments. Anyone who has ever flipped through any of the major dog magazines, like Dog Fancy, cannot with a straight face claim that pit bulls are being bred as loving family pets. I have never met a group of dog owners who know less about their breed, or dogs in general, than pit bull owners. They insist that "it's all how you raise them" and completely ignore the genetic component of dog behavior.

Human affection won't make my bird dog ignore birds; and love and kisses won't make a fighting breed safe to be around other animals....only years and years of constant training and socialization will temper that genetic drive. Animal aggresion in pits is real, and very dangerous, as many people have been mauled trying to save their pet from a neighbor's pit who "just got loose once". Its called re-directed aggression, and it happens.

And the pit who attacks other small animals who has not been socialized with small children may mistake a toddler for an animal...it's called prey drive....the news is full of such accounts.

...When you combine the pit's massive jaw strength, and genetic trait known as "gameness"...the ability to hang on and keep attacking and not back down, that prized trait of fighting dogs.....unless this animal is very carefully bred for temperment you have a very dangerous dog.

No doubt a pit bull carefully bred by a responsible breeder for a non-aggressive temperment, owned by a responsible owner who spends lots of time training and socializing the dog, can make a wonderful pet. Even so, responsible owners of fighting breeds know that they cannot take their animals to dog parks or let them off leash in public EVER.

They don't set their dogs up to fail. The problem with pit bulls is the owners, and you will never solve the problem of forcing the types of people who are attracted to this breed to do the right thing. That's why people want them banned.


Keep fooling yourself, tommy... And don't be surprised when you lovey, snuggly Pit attacks you or someone you love and mauls them.

[ChadTower]

The problem with pit bulls is the owners, and you will never solve the problem of forcing the types of people who are attracted to this breed to do the right thing. That's why people want them banned.

That has always been my statement on pit bulls... sure, as tommy says, the problem is owners.  What no owner ever presents is a way to ban stupid owners.  They simply say "don't ban the dogs because of the owners"... okay, fair enough, tell us how to ban the owners.

[CCM]

And the problem just compounds when you have these bad owners combined with a dog that is genetically engineered to be aggressive.

Look at all the stories of the 'good owners' and how they are so shocked and surprised when their snuggly pit bull ripped the arm of the neighbors kids.  Somehow banning the bad owners won't solve the problem.  Pits have been bred for way to long to be aggressive.   It would take years, maybe even decades, of proper, careful responsible breeding to get these dogs back to being safe family pets.

[tommy]

Why does it seem everyone who does not have a dog like this knows so much more about them the a person who actually has a dog like this? The fact is you don't know a damn thing about these dogs, all you know is what you read online, but somehow that does not include what i say and you only like to hear the bad things that you want to hear. I bet it makes you feel good to hate things for no good reason.

I've told you that my dog has been a perfect dog for many years now and if another 10 years went by and it was still the same, you guys would just come up with another stupid reason why he did not bite anyone and that i am still in danger. It will never end with you people, once you get a bad idea in your head you can never let it go. I feel sorry for you.

[tommy]

Read this

http://www.austinlostpets.com/kidskorner/2October/pitbull.htm

[AtomSmasher]

I believe that most properly trained pitbulls will never spontanously attack someone.  However, I also believe that very few pitbulls are properly trained and that a pitbull not properly trained is far more likely to attack a person than any other breed.

[shardian]

Why does it seem everyone who does not have a dog like this knows so much more about them the a person who actually has a dog like this? The fact is you don't know a damn thing about these dogs, all you know is what you read online, but somehow that does not include what i say and you only like to hear the bad things that you want to hear. I bet it makes you feel good to hate things for no good reason.

I've told you that my dog has been a perfect dog for many years now and if another 10 years went by and it was still the same, you guys would just come up with another stupid reason why he did not bite anyone and that i am still in danger. It will never end with you people, once you get a bad idea in your head you can never let it go. I feel sorry for you.

I'll answer in bulletin form to keep things simple:
-because I do know more about the breed than the owner
-I've done considerable research from credible sources and had conversations with a well known and respected PROFESSIONAL dog breeder and police dog trainer.
- I don't hate anything for "no good reason". I have very good reason for "not liking" you though.
-I don't give a rats ass about "your dog". "Your dog" is not the problem. The thousands of other poorly trained, poorly bred, POORLY owned pit bulls are the problem.
- Don't worry, lots of people feel sorry for you too.

BTW, there is nothing in your link I have not already said here in this thread, or posted a link to. The "glory days" of the American Pit Bull has already been mentioned. Pay attention!

[Goz]

Thank god Tommy is an NFL Expert, because he's way off on his pitbull argument. Any dog owner despite if it is a Chihuahua or Pitbull that refuses to believe that their dog incapable of random violence has their head burried in the sand. Pitbulls which were bred to be aggressive will always have a possibility to become aggressive despite how they were raised. Its the same thing for dog breeds used as bird dogs, they have some natural talents which in this case is a liability. As long as the Pitbull owner is responsible and doesn't leave the dog unrestrained and unable to kill anyone but the owner there shouldn't be a problem, but if their neglegence results in death then the dog owner should be held responsible as if the animal was a weapon.

[tommy]

"Your dog" is not the problem. The thousands of other poorly trained, poorly bred, POORLY owned pit bulls are the problem.

You're right, and me and my dog are proof that with the right training and care any dog can also "not be the problem" if the proper steps are taken.

That's all i've been saying here.

Thanks you for supporting me and my dog and my dog training methods. 

[ChadTower]

Mmmm... dog breads.

[AtomSmasher]

"Your dog" is not the problem. The thousands of other poorly trained, poorly bred, POORLY owned pit bulls are the problem.

You're right, and me and my dog are proof that with the right training and care any dog can also "not be the problem" if the proper steps are taken.

That's all i've been saying here.

Thanks you for supporting me and my dog and my dog training methods. 

So you also believe the average owner trains their pits properly?  Otherwise it would seem like even you would agree it's a mistake trying to convince your clients to get one.

[patrickl]

A well trained dog can still attack if provoked or aggravated enough. There are so many examples of very obedient pits that DO attack when they are in a bad mood.

The dog might always seem to obey it's master, but it might find a kid annoying or even "just want to play" and bite the kids head off.

Pits are not dangerous because they are prone to attack a lot, but because of the incredible damage they do when they have their rare bad moment.

It's amazing that self proclaimed expert pit trainers know so little about the dangers of these dogs. Or rather that they can be so arrogant that they think they can tame a dangerous animal and that their expertise will be enough to ensure it will never hurt someone.

[ChadTower]

Pits are not dangerous because they are prone to attack a lot

Erm, yes they are.  All of the stats, all of them, show they are more prone to attack.

Keep in mind the differentiation between attack and bite.  Few dog breeds will come after anything with a sustained attack.  They mostly bite and back off to see what happens next.

[patrickl]

ah good, semantics

[tommy]

Pits are not dangerous because they are prone to attack a lot

Erm, yes they are.  All of the stats, all of them, show they are more prone to attack.

Keep in mind the differentiation between attack and bite.  Few dog breeds will come after anything with a sustained attack.  They mostly bite and back off to see what happens next.

Stats....         

For every stat that says one thing i can find another stat that totally contradicts that stat and so on.

[patrickl]

You ignore the statistics, that's not the same.

But sure, show us the statistics that Pits are safe dogs.

[HaRuMaN]

If a pit was acting aggressive towards me or my family, I'd kill it, plain and simple. 

[tommy]

If a pit was acting aggressive towards me or my family, I'd kill it, plain and simple. 

No ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---? Just like I'd kill you if you did the same to my family. Don't be a fool, that comment you made was really lame.


Read this whole thing, and even better then reading it, understand it.

http://www.pitbulllovers.com/pitbullblog/?p=59

[ChadTower]

That's not a trivial semantic at all... unless you don't see the difference between a couple of stitches and a gruesome death.

Raw incident stats consider a simple terrier bite the same as a pit attack.  Do you?

[ratzz]

I have to say, that although I don't want to get too involved in this, Tommy is not displaying the rational behaviour of a 'responsible' dog owner.

Well thought out argument is one thing, but you seem to be displaying the same traits found in some badly trained pit-bull. Talks of killings if anyone harmed your family have not done you any favours in your defence of this argument (however honest they are).

Just my 2c's, as you guys say across the pond.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Actually, Tommy has demonstrated that he is a typical Pit owner. Violent and irrational. You have to be that way to justify owning such a violent and unpredictable breed.

Out of all the various types of dogs you can buy, there's only ONE reason anyone would ever willingly choose to buy a pure-bred pit-bull....they've got something to prove, and they want to pretend to be a bad-ass.

Those that would evangelize about Pits in spite of all the negative press and statistic showing a propensity for violence are probably the least sensible of the already irrational bunch. I'm willing to bet that the fact that Tommy's pit hasn't bitten anyone yet isn't a testament to his advanced training techniques, but rather just a matter of pure luck. It's only a matter of time.

[tommy]

I'm a fine dog owner and a fine person, thank you. 

Just imagine how irritated YOU would be if people kept coming to a thread and kept saying the world is flat and insisted on it, that's how i feel about some on you on this topic.

[HaRuMaN]

If a pit was acting aggressive towards me or my family, I'd kill it, plain and simple. 

No ---Cleveland steamer---? Just like I'd kill you if you did the same to my family. Don't be a fool, that comment you made was really lame.


Read this whole thing, and even better then reading it, understand it.

http://www.pitbulllovers.com/pitbullblog/?p=59

---fudgesicle--- you tommy, you're lame...

[patrickl]

That's not a trivial semantic at all... unless you don't see the difference between a couple of stitches and a gruesome death.

I made exactly that distinction in my post.

There are breeds of dogs that are much more prone to attack, but they don't wound people when they attack. Calling an attack without injury a "bite" is what I call semantics. Most of them don't even bite at all, but just bark at you.

The stats I quoted counted only "attacks with bodily harm" as opposed to all attacks. They don't call the one type "attacks" and the other "bites".

The point is that pits are mostly not aggressive at all, but that the damage they inflict when they attack is horrendous. Their owners will claim all is well because their dog from hell seems docile. Yet they don't want to face the fact that it only takes one bad moment for the dog to attack and severely hurt someone.

In more than two-thirds of the cases included in the study, the life-threatening or fatal attack was apparently the first known dangerous behavior by the animal in question

With other dogs you can kill a dog after it bites and prevent serious harm. With a pit, after the first bite it's too late. So that's over 424 maimed people in the US & Canada where the owner always claimed that his dog was a "wovely little cutie patootie".

[patrickl]

Read this whole thing, and even better then reading it, understand it.

http://www.pitbulllovers.com/pitbullblog/?p=59

Lol, that's all you have to offer as proof that these dogs are safe? A poorly written opinion piece? Sad.

Minature Poodle bites a kids finger is not going to draw the readers as “Pit Bull Mauls Toddlers Hand.”

You're damned right it won't. A dog bite is not nearly as bad as losing a limb now is it?

Miami-Dade County Florida has had a Pit Bull ban for well over 10 years now. Flip on Miami Animal Cops on Animal Planet one night and guess what you will see. Yes, Pit Bulls.

So the solution is to not ban at all? What kind of backwards argument is that? People break the speed limit a lot, so just abandon the speed limit? People murder people often, so why not just allow people killing each other?

If you worry that your kids are going to be bitten by a dog. Try watching them. You never know that might actually help stop a few bites.

WTF? That has to be just the bloody limit.

I will leave you with this. The problem is not a dog problem. It’s a people problem that involves dogs. Until we address the people end of this problem we will never get anywhere.

Again that lame cop out and again, no mention of how to solve " the people end of the problem"? What other option than getting rid of these crappy dogs is there?

We will continue to isolate people and restrict people to the point where we have no freedom left at all.

It makes much more sense to let the millions of sane people live in freedom while the asocial minority will just have to settle for not living with an ass ugly dog.

He is right in that the CDC figures are useless. It does indeed report bites and does not differentiate between severity of the bites. In reality the CDC figures are abused by pit lovers rather than by sane people. They claim the little dogs are much more dangerous because they bit a lot more often than pits do.

The figures I quoted report actually injured/maimed/dead people resulting from dog bites. So that's not people with some spit on their pants, but people missing a limb or even their live.