I call racism!

[ChadTower]

Seriously... I'm just trying to read up on wireless security and I run into this.  I guess according to Wikipedia only white people are a security risk.   

[t8erbug]

Oh no u didn't.

[ahofle]

LMFAO 

[danny_galaga]

might be a short-lived phenomenom though:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/itn/20070822/tuk-man-arrested-for-stealing-broadband-dba1618_1.html

[jbox]

 

[Havok]

might be a short-lived phenomenom though:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/itn/20070822/tuk-man-arrested-for-stealing-broadband-dba1618_1.html

But if you're stupid enough to just enable wireless access and don't secure it in any way - I say you are offering it up for free!

[ChadTower]

It was until only recently that consumer grade wireless access points were actually advertised as plug and play - insecure by default with no configuration necessary.  Eventually they started coming with security on by default with some upfront config for set up but there are still probably many tens of thousands of nonsecured access points out there from that period.

[shardian]

might be a short-lived phenomenom though:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/itn/20070822/tuk-man-arrested-for-stealing-broadband-dba1618_1.html

That is ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---!! Sorry, but unsecured wireless is just a signal floating in the air, and noone owns the air. How can they even get away with a law like that? I suppose they should start arresting people for taking a whiff of their neighbors steaks that they are grilling out too.

[ChadTower]

Because it's not a signal floating in one direction.  There are laws against this here, too.  It is illegal entry.  A person's network is INSIDE their house and technically, in many places, entering their network is legally the same as entering their home.  There haven't been many cases tried yet or arrests made but it will start to ramp up eventually.

Receiving an FM signal someone is broadcasting from their house?  That's a steak aroma.  Accessing their network via a nonsecure WAP?  Illegal entry.

[shardian]

Well I just read up on these laws, and they really need to be updated for the wifi age. If you really want to get technical, the unsecured wifi router is acting as a proxy "doorman" for the owner.
The "plug and play" argument as to why alot of networks are unsecured is irrelevant. There is an acronym we use around here that is fitting: RTFM!

For example:
My laptop wifi starts up and seeks wifi access points by query. When it encounters an access point, they briefly communicate - names are exchanged, settings are exchanged, etc. An unsecured router is technically saying "Hi, my name is so and so. My door is open, feel free to come in". Now the SECURED router says this: "Hi, my name is so and so. My owner says that you have to give the password to come in."

The whole basis for the legality of using another's wifi is whether it is UNAUTHORIZED or not.

[FrizzleFried]

.

[dstone]

Everyone's a Little Bit Racist:

[ChadTower]

The whole basis for the legality of using another's wifi is whether it is UNAUTHORIZED or not.

It is also illegal to walk into someone's open front door.  That is the difference between unlawful entry and breaking and entering.  The door being open is not permission to enter under the law.

[shardian]

My argument is just as valid as yours. That's the problem - interpreting a dated law meant for something else to fit a new and ambiguous problem.
IMO, when a wireless access point shows up, identifies itsself, AND tells my computer no identification is needed to enter, then that is AUTHORIZED ACCESS. The USER set up the router, thus authorization is IMPLIED.

[ChadTower]

The law already has been tweaked to address this, though.  I'm not saying your interpretation is literally invalid - but the law is not the same as the mechanics of the sitaution.  The law in many places already defines this as unlawful entry.  Specifically. 

Doesn't matter what the technical reality is - the law calls it illegal.  The fact that people are getting arrested for it is a result of that.  It's not a dated law, it's a recent law.

[shardian]

The law already has been tweaked to address this, though.  I'm not saying your interpretation is literally invalid - but the law is not the same as the mechanics of the sitaution.  The law in many places already defines this as unlawful entry.  Specifically. 

Doesn't matter what the technical reality is - the law calls it illegal.  The fact that people are getting arrested for it is a result of that.  It's not a dated law, it's a recent law.

See, now places like this is where Mr. receipt checker needs to apply himself. I tell you what, if I was out in public with my laptop, got on a public wifi network and got arrested for it, I would go Ape ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.

[ChadTower]

That's where it differs... a signal coming out of my house is not a public network.  It is a private network and that is the key distinction.  Same with my yard - I don't have a fence but you can't come hang out there without permission.

I think there actually is a grey area for public networks.  Places like a library - or a coffee shop - that is advertised as free to the public.  Does that mean you can use it from the parking lot?  The law isn't all that clearly defined on that yet.  Some shops are starting to push that it's like a bathroom... they can limit it to paying customers if they want.  I don't know of any place that this has been tried in a court yet, though.  And how does that affect a library?  You aren't "paying" even when you're inside.

[shardian]

That's where it differs... a signal coming out of my house is not a public network.  It is a private network and that is the key distinction.  Same with my yard - I don't have a fence but you can't come hang out there without permission.

Schmoke's, get in here and inform Chad that you have to show proof that you warned possible trespassers before they came onto your property - usually with a sign.

[ChadTower]

That was a different case - a case of a person who has come and gone without you seeing them (leaving their car behind as evidence). 

This is a case of someone being caught sitting in the yard.  You can make them leave, and if they do it repeatedly or refuse to leave, you can have them removed or even arrested.

[MikeQ]

My family took an R.V. trip across country this year for our summer vacation.  I took my laptop with me figuring I'd use it at campgrounds.  We pulled over one day to look at a map and I decided to try finding a wireless connection.  I found 3 of them.  We soon discovered that anyone with a wireless name of Netgear or D-Link was not smart enough to change the default settings of their wireless router and therefore has no security enabled.  In 100% of the cases, these routers were wide open. 

The abundance of unsecured Wifi was crazy.  We had internet access almost the whole trip.  I was amazed at some of the places we picked it up too.  It seemed like we were in the boonies with no houses around yet we were picking it up from somewhere.

Which got me to wondering.  How am I supposed to know when Wifi is meant to be free vs. when I'm stealing it?  What if I'm in a place that has free Wifi but I unknowingly latch onto someones private service?

[ChadTower]

IIRC the law defines it as "an unknown network".  If you don't know, don't go.  Ignorance is not an excuse as it is written to address that.

[ErikRuud]

I would think that this kind of thing could be classified as "Theft of Service" because you are using a service that someone else has paid for without there permission.

[Jouster]

Yeah, but the fun part is when they haven't changed their admin password and you get in and then make their wifi network secure....from them.  That's good stuff.

Jouster

[Ed_McCarron]

might be a short-lived phenomenom though:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/itn/20070822/tuk-man-arrested-for-stealing-broadband-dba1618_1.html

Grrr... One of my pet peeves.  If you put it out there where any old moron can use it, shame on you. 

If this is stealing, should I be arrested for reading a book on my back porch by my neighbors light?  I'm stealing his electrons, after all...

Morons.

[patrickl]

It's more like walking into your neighbours house and eating all the food in the fridge, after he left the door open. The door was open right? Doesn't that make it right for you to take his food?

Light shining on your porch is no the same. If you use his internet connection that has value.

[billf]

Light shining on your porch is no the same. If you use his internet connection that has value.

So does the electric service that the neighbor is paying for to light the bulb that is shining on the porch.  Seems like a perfectly valid analogy and therefore is the same/comparable.

[ahofle]

Light shining on your porch is no the same. If you use his internet connection that has value.

So does the electric service that the neighbor is paying for to light the bulb that is shining on the porch.  Seems like a perfectly valid analogy and therefore is the same/comparable.

Although reading your book using your neighbor's light would not in any way impact your neighbor -- however downloading pr0n on your neighbor's wireless connection would have a big impact.   

[billf]

Light shining on your porch is no the same. If you use his internet connection that has value.

So does the electric service that the neighbor is paying for to light the bulb that is shining on the porch.  Seems like a perfectly valid analogy and therefore is the same/comparable.

Although reading your book using your neighbor's light would not in any way impact your neighbor -- however downloading pr0n on your neighbor's wireless connection would have a big impact.   

 

And you can't shut out the neighbor from using his electricity like you can shut him out of using his own wifi connection by securing it once in.   

[FrizzleFried]

I guess this is a big deal in Europe where your telecommunications companies are screwing you in the backside by incorporating bandwidth limits.  Here in the states (at least in California and Idaho where I have lived),  broadband is unlimited...so unless the jackass was continuously streaming pron from next door sucking up ACTIVE bandwidth,  I doubt anyone would give two shits if someone was sucking off their wireless connection.

That said...this is the reason I don't do wireless...AT ALL.

[boykster]

Here in the states (at least in California and Idaho where I have lived),  broadband is unlimited...

Not so true actually.  Comcast has been quietly notifying high bandwidth users that they are in violation of their TOS and some have even had their service terminated.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2111373,00.asp

[ChadTower]

So does the electric service that the neighbor is paying for to light the bulb that is shining on the porch.  Seems like a perfectly valid analogy and therefore is the same/comparable.

It's only perfectly valid if the light is a two way service.  Steal his cable for a more applicable analogy.

I don't run wireless either - though I will soon for employment reasons.  I work from home a lot and am tired of doing it in the basement.  What I'll likely do, though, is keep the wireless disabled at the router until I am about to use it, then enable it.  When I'm done I'll disable it again.  I ran my house with cat6 for a reason.

[jbox]

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=56691.0

[boykster]

I use wireless using WPA, mac filtering (unless its in the table, it can't access), and no broadcast of ssid.  I have maximum logging enabled for both my router and my primary linux file server.  NO problems thus far, but my neighbors aren't haXXorz..in fact, my neighbor 2 doors down has an unsecured wifi router running right now that my laptop sees.....

[patrickl]

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=56691.0

Ha, that's hilarious.

The trouble with an open WiFi connection is that it could very well be a trap. Retreive your e-mail over someones open wireless router and they might very well be listening in. Or worse, someone else who hacked that open wireless router might be listening in.

Maybe those new fast "network over power grid" things will become more popular.

[ChadTower]

A person with good knowledge of the IP protocol can get into a WEP enabled router quickly... takes a litte longer for WPA, even with MAC filtering, but it's not that hard.  And I guarantee you most people have no idea you can hop into a wireless network via the clients that are much, much, much harder to secure.

Wireless sniffers are dangerously effective things, folks, and with the cracker software out there now any wireless device can be one.

[delta88]

Because it's not a signal floating in one direction.  There are laws against this here, too.  It is illegal entry.  A person's network is INSIDE their house and technically, in many places, entering their network is legally the same as entering their home.  There haven't been many cases tried yet or arrests made but it will start to ramp up eventually.

Receiving an FM signal someone is broadcasting from their house?  That's a steak aroma.  Accessing their network via a nonsecure WAP?  Illegal entry.

Um, My wireless reaches into several homes around me. from my basement to the home across the street....  Does this mean I am breaking into his garage?

[ChadTower]

You may want to turn the range down on that WAP.  If it goes all the way into his house he could sit there and hack away indefinitely at whatever security you set up.

[FrizzleFried]

Wireless sniffers are dangerously effective things, folks, and with the cracker software out there now any wireless device can be one.

There we go with the racism again...sheesh!

 

 

[shardian]

Wireless sniffers are dangerously effective things, folks, and with the cracker software out there now any wireless device can be one.

There we go with the racism again...sheesh!

 

 

Chad Tower: White Black Panther . POWER TO THE PEOPLE!

[ChadTower]

I'm a Native Canadian enforcer, eh.